CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT
CUBITT, MAYOR—SECOND MAYORALTY.
SECOND SESSION, HELD DECEMBER 16TH, 1861.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND BY
JAMES DROVER BARNETT
Short-hand Writers to the Court
ROLLS CHAMBERS, No. 89, CHANCERY LANE.
THE POINTS OF LAW AND PRACTICE,
REVISED AND EDITED BY
ROBERT ORRIDGE, ESQ.
OF THE MIDDLE TEMPLE, BARRISTER-AT-LAW.
BUTTERWORTHS, 7, FLEET STREET,
Law Publishers in the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.
On the Queen's Commission of
OYER AND TERMINER AND GAOL DELIVERY,
The City of London,
AND GAOL DELIVERY FOR THE
COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX, AND THE PARTS OF THE COUNTIES OF ESSEX, KENT, AND SURREY, WITHIN THE JURISDICTION
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT,
Held on Monday, December 16th, 1861, and following days.
BEFORE the Right Hon. WILLIAM CUBITT , Lord Mayor of the City of London; Sir Henry Singer Keating, Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench; Sir Colin Blackburn, Knt.; one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Common Pleas; William Taylor Copeland, Esq., M.P.; Sir John Musgrove, Bart.; Sir Francis Graham Moon, Bart., F.S.A.; David Salomons, Esq., M. P.; and Thomas Quested Finnis, Esq.; Aldermen of the said City; Russell Gurney, Esq., Q.C. Recorder of the said City; Sir Henry Muggeridge, Knt., Ald.; Benjamin Samuel Phillips, Esq.; Edward Conder, Esq.; Aldermen of the said City; and Thomas Chambers, Esq., Q.C. Common Serjeant of the said City; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
CUBITT, MAYOR. SECOND MAYORALTY.
A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.
LONDON AND MIDDLESEX CASES.
OLD COURT.—Monday, December 16th, 1861.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY and MR. TINDAL ATKINSON conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS WILLIAM MURTON . I am clerk to Mr. Stnbbs, messenger of the Court of Bankruptcy—I produce the proceedings in bankruptcy in this case—the name and description is John Corss Smith, of 64, King William Street in the City of London, jeweller—the petition of adjudication is dated 12th August, and the adjudication 13th August—the petition states that the petitioning creditor is Richard Willis, 15, Clerkenwell Green, manufacturing jeweller—the summons to surrender is dated 22d August—he was required to surrender on the 2d or 26th of September—the 26th was the principal meeting, the first was for the choice of assignees—I was present on 26th, the prisoner did not surrender—there was a record or memorandum made, as was our custom, on the back as to his non-surrendering under the hand of the Commissioner. (This was dated 26th September, signed by Mr. Commissioner Goulburn, stating that the said Court sat at the time and place mentioned, from 11 to 3 o'clock, to receive the surrender of the said bankrupt to pass his last examination, but the said bankrupt did not surrender himself)—I know of my own knowledge that the Commissioner did sit—I procured his signature immediately after; I proclaimed the bankrupt on that day; this is the London'Gazetle (produced), it is dated Friday, 23d August, last—it contains an advertisement requiring him to surrender on these dates—I inserted it immediately after the adjudication—I gave one of our men named Freeman, who went in possession, a duplicate of the adjudication, and he served it by posting it up—I examined the document with others—they are always in triplicate, three adjudications are always made out—I made out the summonses to surrender, myself.
bankruptcy—I posted a paper on the shop No. 64, King William Street, on 13th August—I had another paper, which I posted on 22d August; one I took with me, and one was sent when I went into possession; I read them myself; the first was an adjudication—I do not know where it is now, I left it there when I came away; they were posted in the shop—I was in possession getting on for six weeks, during that time the bankrupt, Smith, did not come to the premises—I do not know what became of the notices; I left them in the shop when I had my discharge—I read them over.
JOHN JAMES TOZEN . I was in the employment of the prisoner for seven years and a half—I now carry on the business at 64—when I paid my money for the concern I tore the two papers up that were left by the last witness and threw them on the ground; I believe they were swept out into the street ultimately.
RICHARD WILLIS . I carry on business alone, and am a manufacturing jeweller, and wholesale dealer in jewellery, at 15, Clerkenwell Green—I was a creditor of the prisoner; on 10th August last he owed me 456l.—I called at his shop on Saturday, 10th August, about 12 o'clock in the day, I think I saw him—I called respecting the account that was to be drawn for, and he promised to look at the account in the course of the day and give me a cheque for it on Monday morning, with a bracelet that I had left on approbation—I never saw him after—I had left the bracelet for approbation a few days before; the wholesale value of it was 6l. 10s.—I noticed the shop on that occasion, and I saw it afterwards on Monday, the 12th—I received this letter from the prisoner on Monday morning about half-past 8, dated 11th, by post (Read: "Sir, I must request you to make me bankrupt and enforce your deed at once; I have been most shamefully robbed, but shall be ready to explain all when wanted. Pray do not fail the first thing; an execution will be in before I, and I am afraid of being arrested")—I received that about half-past 8 on Monday morning, by post—I am the petitioning creditor—I went to the shop on the Monday—I took a general survey of the two shops, both N s. 15 and 64—I should say from 1,000l. to 2,000l. worth of property had left the shops between Saturday and Monday; that is my judgment—the prisoner was almost always at the business at 64.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFF. Q. Had you dealt with him long? A. Yes; ever since he has been in business—I sold him the first parcel of goods; that is seven years ago—he at first had merely one shop, No. 64—I think he was successful in that; he took the other shop, No. 15, about five years ago, about two years after he had the other—I cannot say whether No. 15 did not succeed so well—I am not in a position to form any judgment—for some considerable time he conducted himself in a very tradesman-like and business-like way—I think it is very possible I made him an advance in September, 1860—I have made advances to him—I think it was towards the close of 1860 that I advanced him 200l.; he had that all at one time—I deducted 20l., 10 per cent.—he did not afterwards pay me 10l. interest—I gave him a cheque for 180l.—I had taken the interest; he paid me nothing—I received no more interest on that loan, that was done with, it was a further loan of 100l. that he paid me interest upon—I received 10l. on that—I lent him altogether 300l.—I cannot say that the 200l. was paid off, he gave me a promissory note, promising to pay it three, four, or five mouths, and then he came aid said that his payments were running very heavy from outstanding debts he had with
other creditors; that these were coming very inconvenient to him, and would I let him have a little more money, and do away with the bills altogether and draw it on bills that would come due on separate acceptances—it was a renewal of the note, and an additional loan—I took 10 per cent interest on the 100l.—not on the renewal—I don't think it was a renewal, it was a fresh contract altogether—I got three of those ten pounds, one 20l., and one 10l., on the 300l., but a good deal of it had been paid off—200l. was partly paid off and partly not; he came to me and said, "I am in a fix here"—there was a deed as security on the second loan, not Or the first; it was dated 8th of February, 1861—altogether I lent him 350l. and bad 30l. interest—I fancy some that portion of the money has not run out yet—I fancy some portion of it is this very debt I am now on—it was to run, I think, from three to twelve or thirteen months—notes were drawn at intervals—some of that was to run three months and over, four, five, and six until the amount of 240l. odd ran out—I think this is a portion of the debt I am now petitioning for—I am not quite positive—I cannot say it for a certainty—I think I have received all the money I lent—I have not given up the deed to the assignees—it was given to me to cover the sum then owing to me—it was for the good as well as the money—the goods supplied to him since then amount to 212l.—from that time to the present I don't think I have received anything from him—I remember his first taking the shop—he put a very nice stock into it—he has not furnished me, since he has been in custody, with a list of the trade debts that he has paid—I have never seen anything of the kind; he has written to me from Newgate to say that he would do so, but I never went there—I do not know whether or no he has furnished it to the solicitor for the assignees—I am one of the assignees-no list has been communicated to me—I have left everything in the hands of the solicitor—Mr. Orans, the other' assignee, has taken the management of all that part, and I have taken this unpleasant part of it—no request was made in my presence that a list should be furnished—I have never examined the books—I have looked upon it as a hopeless case altogether, and I really do not think the estate will get one halfpenny out of it, but Mr. Orans has taken all the management—the books hate been given up to the assignees—I have not investigated them at all, therefore I do not know what trade payments have been made—I cannot tell whether the money raised by pledging was paid away in trade debts—Mr. Orans is the other trade assignee—I do not know of my own knowledge that he has gone through the books—I do not know whether he is here—I think you will find that everything was pawned, except the few things we took possession of—if the books weft kept properly they would show the stock received, and how, and to whom it was disposed of; if the prisoner had surrendered we should have gone all through that—when I went from the shop I went straight to the Bankruptcy Court, and then down to Sydenham—there was not a meeting of creditors called shortly after—I was present at the meeting at the Bankruptcy Court: that was all—it was not proposed by some of the creditors that he should be allowed to return and make up his accounts-nobody dreamt of finding him—a reward of 50l. was offered very soon after he had gone away—it was placarded about in the usual way—I don't think it was put into the papers—I don't know—I, with two or three others, advised that step to be taken—I had been urging it from the very first, and I wished 100l. offered instead of 50l.—there was no proposition made that the placard should be withdrawn, and that he should be allowed to return and make up his accounts—I was not pressing him for money on the day he
went away—I did not know that there were writs out against him—I do not now know that there were a great number of writs out at that time—I heard that there was an execution in the house the day I was there—I did not find a great number of writs among the papers—I never examined his papers—I have not examined the duplicates—I heard Mr. Wontner, the prisoner's solicitor, request at the police court that a list should be furnished of the property that I thought was deficient—that has not been done by me.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Has that list been shown to you before? A. No. I cannot say whether these figures are the prisoner's—my debt of 467l. was made up from a book debt of 212l. for goods supplied and not drawn for at all; 244 4s. 6d. for bills which he had given me and which were dishonoured, and 6l. 10s. for the bracelet which was left on approbation—I fancy the whole of that amount was for goods sold and delivered; the borrowed money had been all repaid.
JOHN JAMES TOZEN (re-examined). I have been in the bankrupt's employ for seven and a half years—I had the management of his business when he was absent—I was at 64—he was as much at one shop as the other—he was between the two shops; in fact, he did not spend more time at 64 than 15—our practice, at the close of the day when the business was over, was to clear the goods out of the window and put them in an iron safe—I generally had the key of the shop and the safe too; he had nothing but the shop—it communicated with a passage that led upstairs—when you shut the door into the passage you shut off all communication with the shop—I generally used to have the key of the safe—I remember the Saturday night, the last time I saw him at the shop—I saw him about twenty-five minutes to seven—I went to Clapham by appointment to take home a dock—I was away about two hours, when I came back the shop was closed—that was about half-past eight or a quarter to nine—I saw the prisoner there—it was my duty to close the shop, except when I was out of the way, and then of course he used to take charge of it—I had returned from Clapham when I found the shop closed—he did not say anything to me—he was outside the shop—I asked him for the key, and he gave it to me, after some little talking—on Monday morning I came back to the shop as usual—the prisoner was not there—he did not come to his duties at all while I was there—when I opened the safe on the Monday morning I found the cases put away as if they contained goods, but they were empty—I went to the prisoner's private residence at Lewisham next day—I did not find him there—the house was empty—I had been to that house two or three times and seen the furniture there—I afterwards saw a pile of that furniture at Hollingsworth's the auctioneers, in Holborn, on the Tuesday.
Cross-examined. Q. Before the prisoner left an execution had come in, we hear? A. Yes. I believe there was an execution in the previous part of the week, before the Saturday, and Mr. Smith paid a certain amount to get the man to go out—that was on the Wednesday or Thursday—I cannot say how he obtained the money to enable him to do that—I cannot remember whether there was sufficient cash in the house to pay out the execution—there was not a very short balance at the time, but he was very much pressed—I know he was served with a great many writs on the Friday and Saturday—none of those writs were by the trade—there was a Mr. Jenks—I do not think he was pressing him very much at that time—I think he was non est—he had run—he kept a shop in Regent-street—the prisoner had transactions with him in accommodation bills—most of the writs were about those transactions—I cannot say how long before the prisoner went away it was that Mr. Jenks took himself
off—it was some little time before—I do not know anybody in the trade that issued a writ against him—Mr. Willis was not pressing him very much—there was a 50l. bill of Mr. Willis's due that Saturday, and he did not pay—I was not in at the time Mr. Willis came—the prisoner had pawned a great deal of property during the last six or twelve months—the tickets were left in the shop when the assignees took possession—that was how he kept the business going as long as he did—he used to come to business about 10 o'clock, and stop very often till a late hour—he attended to his business properly—I have not gone through the books—I was never at No. 15—we did a very good trade at 64 from time to time—it always did a very good trade from the opening—it was not for some time after the taking of No. 15 that the prisoner began to get into difficulties—I think Mr. Jenks was the main cause of it—I have the business at 64 now, on my own account—the assignees have not asked me to go through the books so as to try and make out what stock is missing—there have been a few book debts which I have given my aid to get in—I think eight or nine books were given up relating to 64—they were the ordinary trade books, day book, ledger and stock book, and two banker's books. with the counterfoils of the cheques—the bill book contained copies of the invoices—sometimes I kept the books, and sometimes Mr. Smith—the stock book was not kept so well, because I never had the control of it—the day book was kept very well—there were two separate bankers, the Unity, and the London and Westminster—it was not one for each shop—Mr. Smith opened a fresh account at the Unity—I do not know why there were two accounts—there is no book that I know of which shows the amount of stock that was received recently before the bankruptey—there is no stock book that I know of, containing an account of what had recently come in—I think the stock book contains no account for about three months—we enter from the bill book into the stock book—the ledger would' show the stock received up to about last Christmas, but not since, I think—the bill book contains the invoices, but Mr. Smith had not kept them for the last three or four months—I do not think you will find any stock entered in the stock book for the last four months—there is no book which would show the stock received during that time; only the invoices, and they were not entered up—they were taken possession of by the Bankruptcy Court—all the invoices were left by the bankrupt.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Was he in the habit of allowing his wife a sum of money a week? A. Yes, 3l. 2s. 6d.—I took that sum to her the last Saturday night—he kept a separate establishment of his own for the last three years, or nearly so—the average takings a week at No. 64 were about 40l.—the profit on these articles is very enormous.
COURT. Q. Can you give any idea of the net profits per week at 64? A. From 12l. to 14l.; but about 5l. has to be taken out of that for expenses—it would be about 7l. net.
MR. METOCALFE. Q. Had not his wife behaved very badly to him? A. Not at all.
COURT. Q. What was the value of the stock that you had left on the Saturday night, and which you found missing on the Monday morning? A. I should imagine between 400l. and 500l.—that is at No. 64.
JOHN MURTER . I was employed as a porter by the prisoner, at 15 King William-street—Mr. Predicaux acted in the shop with me as a fellow-servant—I was there at the time the shop was closed, on Saturday, 10th August—we usually closed about 8 o'clock on Saturday; we generally began to clear away a little before 8—it was the practice to clear the window and put the
property into the safe—on that Saturday night I was sent by Mr. Smith to Billingsgate for some fish; I left him at the shop, and no one else; when I returned to the shop, the goods were all cleared out of the window and put into the safe, according to the usual custom—Mr. Predicaux used generally to have the key of the safe, and I had the key of the shop door—I left at half-past eight that night—I went again on Monday morning; I did not see the prisoner afterwards—when the safe was opened on the Monday, and the things came to be looked at, some of them were found to have been taken away.
Cross-examined. Q. You know that the prisoner was considerably pressed at the time he left, do you not? A. Yes, very much; there were six or seven writs out against him then, he was afraid of being arrested, it quite frightened him out of the shop—I saw the placard offering a reward for his apprehension afterwards—I was at No. 15, and used occasionally to go to assist at No. 64—up to that time the prisoner was struggling to pay his way very much—No. 15 was a losing shop; I think he lost a great deal of money by Mr. Jenks—I do dot think there was the property taken away that was stated, but I was only a porter—there was very little at No. 15 that was taken away; there were some plated goods had in, that we used to put into the window for gold goods—we were very short in stock—I cannot form any estimate of the amount that was taken, but I do not think it was anything like what Mr. Willis says—there was very little to take from No. 15, I do not know as to 64.
FREDERICK PREDICAUX . I was employed by the prisoner previously to 10th August, in his shop at No. 15—Murter was my fellow-servant there—he acted as porter—on this Saturday night I left the shop it might be after 5; I left the shop as usual—I left Mr. Smith there—on the Monday morning I came to the shop as usual—I discovered a deficiency in the stock I do not know what it was; I cannot say—there were things not there, that I had seen there on the Saturday—I don't know the character of the things taken away—Mr. Smith never gave me any goods.
Cross-examined. Q. There was not very much to take away? A. No—I dare say there might be something like 100l. worth taken away.
LOUISA JENKS . I was the landlady of the house occupied by Mr. Smith at Lewisham—I do not remember about 8th August last any furniture being removed—I lived next door—I cannot tell when I saw Mr. Smith last at the house in Lowisham—Mr. Lewis has not examined me for the purpose of my proof—I have not given any statement to him, or told him anything before I came here; not at all—I do not know Mr. Smith's solicitor—I remember receiving the keys of my house by parcels delivery—that was a week after the goods were removed—I remember the goods being removed—I saw them removed—two vans of goods were removed on Friday, the 9th of August, and the house was shut up on Saturday—no notice was given to me.
Cross-examined. Q. Your son was a jeweler? A. Yes—he has gone away—I really do not know his affairs, but I believe he was indebted very considerably to the prisoner—I have joined with my son in security to the prisoner—I became security for him for money advanced—I knew that my son was indebted to him.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. How much were you security for? A. The first security was 130l.—Mr. Smith joined—a portion of that was paid, and afterwards I signed a bill for Mr. Smith for 100l.
believe he slept there on the Thursday—I did not see him on the Friday—he did not sleep there on the Thursday—Thursday was the last time I saw him there—the house was afterwards closed and shut up on the Saturday—I was paid my wages up to that time, all but eleven days—I left when the house was shut up.
ANDREW MURRELL . I am a carman—Mrs. Smith employed me in August last to remove furniture from the house at Lewisham to a Mr. Hollings-worth's—I removed all the furniture from the house, and took it to Mr. Hollingsworth's—the prisoner was there after I had unloaded—he came there and saw his furniture there—he paid me himself—I did not lock up the house on the Friday—I did not see it done—I did not take the key of the house anywhere—I never put my hand on any key.
WILLIAM HOLLINGSWORTH . I am a gentleman—I appear here for my son—I know most of this transaction—my son knows nothing of it—I do not carry on any business myself—I bought this furniture—I was at the auction rooms on the Saturday morning—I gave 38l. 10s. for it—I bought it of Aun Haynes—I never saw Mr. Tozen, the witness, till a fortnight ago, when I saw him at the Court—I did not see the furniture brought—I never saw Mr. Smith in my life till to-day.
COURT. Q. Was your son subpoened? A. We have been both subpoened—he is not here—I was subpoened on the former occasion, and my son on this—he knows nothing of the matter—Mr. Willis's clerk on Saturday stated that he considered I was the witness who would be required—we did not both come—I am only superintending the business for my son generally—I pass my time with him mostly.
MR. SERJT. PARRY. Q. Did you advance the money yourself? A. I paid the money—I could do so in my son's absence—I did do so—I never saw the prisoner about this matter, and I understand my son never saw him—I do not remember the furniture being brought—I first saw it on Saturday morning, 10th August—I went into the auction rooms to value it—I have my books—I have the receipt of Ann Haynes—that is dated the 10th—there was some inquiry made, and I pointed out to the gentleman who inquired, the furniture which we bought—I think I took him to the auction rooms myself, and showed it to him, but who that gentleman was I really do not know—I paid 38l. 10s. for the furniture.
MR. TOZEN (re-examined). I saw this gentleman who has been examined—he pointed out to me the furniture he had bought—I believe that to be the furniture I had seen at Lewisham.
THEODORE HALSTED FOULGER . I am a detective officer of the City police—I received a warrant from Mr. Lewis, the solicitor, on Friday, 16th August (this was a warrant by Mr. Commissioner Foublanque, dated 15th August, for the apprehension of the prisoner)—I afterwards received a warrant from Sir Robert Carden—at that time a reward of 50l. had been offered—in consequence of inquiries I made, I proceeded to Brussels—I met the prisoner there on the evening of 14th October—I had known him for some years—I followed him into a pastrycook's shop—he said, "What do you want?"—I said, "You ought to know"—he said, "You have no authority here; you are no officer here; you may do very well in England"—I said, "I want you to accompany me to the Vice-Consul's"—he said he should do no such thing—I then told him I should give him into custody to the first policeman I met, and have him taken to the Hotel de Ville for travelling in a false name—I wanted to know what name he was in, and he said, "In the name of Gray"—I then said I should take him, and the female that
was with him, and have them both given into custody—he then consented to go with me to the Vice-Consul's—the Vice-Consul was not in, and we returned to the hotel I was stopping at—on the road, the prisoner said that he had been fearfully robbed by a person of the name of Jenks; that he could explain it all if I would allow him to see Mr. Willis and Mr. Lewis—he said he would return with me to London—I went to his lodging, No. 7, Rue Verte, and in some drawers there, and on his person, I found a gold watch and chain, 5l. 11s. 3 1/2 d., a duplicate for a chain pawned in Brussels, three gold rings, a gold locket, a set of studs, a gold pin, a plated eye-glass, and a gold pencil-case—the value of the things was from 16l. to 20l.—we remained at his lodging all night—I afterwards took him and the female to Ostend—they were passing as Mr. and Mrs. Gray—I found this card on him, with "Mr. Gray" on it—as we were going along I asked him where the property was—he said it was only him and Annie that knew; referring to the female that was with him—when we got on board the steamer I showed the warrant to him—he desired me not to read it—I told him what the purport of it was—I have since seen him in Newgate—I asked him about the property, and he said he had given it all up—I afterwards received some property from the female that was with him on Thursday, 17th October—I have it here—I should think the value of it was about 200l.—this is a correct list of it—it was contained in a parcel and two boxes—it was after that property had been given up that I saw the prisoner, and that he said he had given it all up—I said, "You have not given it all up; I am told there is about 2,000l. odd that you have pawned"—he said he could account for every farthing of it—I told him he had better make out an account and give it to his solicitor—Mr. Wontner, his solicitor, afterwards gave me this paper to give to Mr. Willis—I handed it to Mr. Lewis—(This paper contained a statement of the articles pledged by the prisoner; it amounted to upwards of 2,000l., out of which 1,658l. was stated to have been paid for trade expenses, and 400l. for household expenses).
Cross-examined. Q. Was not another paper given to you? A. No; that was the only one I received from or through the prisoner.
ROBERT ELLIS . I am manager to Mr. Harrison, a pawnbroker, of Aldersgate-street, City—from lst February, 1861, to 2d August, 1861, the prisoner pawned jewellery, watches, &c. with us to the amount of 9l. 15s., but some of those things were renewed—the pledging extends over about eighteen months—besides that sum there was another sum of 200l.; that consisted of jewellery also—the assignees have since redeemed that property.
Cross-examined. Q. Is the 200l. within the same dates? A. Extending over about eighteen months.
RICHARD HENRY CLOUD . I am manager to Mr. Richard Attenborough, pawnbroker—I have here a memorandum, in Mr. James Attenborough's writing, of goods pawned to the amount of 215l.—it is signed by the prisoner—it extends from 27th April, 1861, to the 7th August, 1861—he has also pawned with Mr. Richard Attenborough to the extent of 129l. 10s., from 6th March to 30th July—they were goods left for various loans.
Cross-examined. Q. Can you tell how much of that would be for renewals? A. I believe not any—when he deposited the goods, he invariably said that the money was to make payments—I have known him for about two years—he has pawned and redeemed a good deal of property in that time—about three parts of this was property sold.
WILLIAM FINCH . I am a miller by calling—I am in the habit of advancing money occasionally—I know the prisoner—during the year 1861 I advanced him money, on the deposit of goods, to the amount of 420l.
Cross-examined. Q. When was that? A. Some time in June and July—it was in different sums—I took the goods as collateral security for bills of exchange—I charged him, I should say, above five per cent. for the time, but I could not tell exactly—it was for six weeks—he brought his solicitor with him—I believe Mr. Jenks introduced me to him—I do not know—I could not say whether Mr. Jenks or his solicitor introduced me.
WILLIAM LEWIS . I am the solicitor to the assignees—I have examined the books together with my clerk—I have examined the stock book and the invoices—I could not find all the invoices—all the books that I examined are here—I have not been able to make out an accurate account of the quantity of stock that we missed—there is no account of the monies he received at the two shops in this statement—I have not had any communication from the prisoner as to the takings at No. 15 at any time—there was a stock in that shop—it fetched 290l. at Debenham's, at a forced sale—the stock at No. 64 fetched 462l. odd—in addition to that, about 500l. was received as the takings from No. 64 for six weeks, and 330l. from No. 15.
MR. METCALFE submitted that the indictment must fail, inasmuch as the statute upon which it was founded, the 12 and 13 Vic c. 106, had been repealed by 23 and 24 Vic. c 134; and the only arguable point in favour of the indictment would be, whether section 230 of the later Act continued the offence under the former Act, and prevented the repeal taking effect; for there were numerous cases which established that if an Act of Parliament was repealed, the offences contained in it fell to the ground; this same question had arisen in every Bankruptcy Act that had been passed; it arose when 6 Geo. 4 repealed 5 Geo. 4, and again, when that was repealed by 12 and 13 Vic. (Lord Brougham's Act). The learned counsel referred to the cases of Reg v. Swan and Reg v. Nairn, reported in 4 Cox's Criminal Cases, pages 108 and 115, also in the 31st vol. of the Sessions Papers, pages 227 and 279. The RECORDER inquired, whether in those Acts there was any section at all equivalent to the 230th section of the present Act. MR. METCALFE replied, that the words were almost identical with those used in 12 and 13 Vic.; if the 230th section had stated, that the offences committed under the former Act should still be offences prosecutable by law, his argument would fall to the ground, but it was confined to "proceedings pending;" the word "penalty" might be relied upon on the other side, but in the cases quoted, the word "penalty," which was used in 12 and 13 Vic, was held to refer to pecuniary penalty, and not to penalty of imprisonment or penal servitude; it could not, therefore, be contended that there was any word in the present Act which preserved the offence, or entailed upon the prisoner the possibility of a conviction of it; for though the penalties were preserved and the proceedings kept alive, the offences were not mentioned, and according to the authorities the offences must be preserved in the clearest and most express terms before a conviction could take place.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY contended that it was very unlikely the Legislature should have made such an omission, and in Reg. v. Swan the repealing section of 12 and 13 Vic. was held to be most distinctly excepted; in the 230th section of the present Act the exceptions applied clearly and distinctly to civil proceedings only and to proceedings pending.
THE RECORDER. But these proceedings were not pending at the time of the passing of the Act.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY relied upon the warrant for the prisoner's apprehension, which was issued on 4th October, to show this to be a proceeding pending; he also urged that whilst in 5 and 6 Geo. 4, the words describing the proceedings were clearly confined to civil proceedings, this section had no limitation;
the words were most general, and he submitted must receive a general construction, and a construction even which went to fix upon a person a crime, which clearly was a crime at the time the Act passed; then would arise the question whether a warrant, duly granted upon a sworn information, was a proceeding pending, and whether there was an act done or a penalty incurred? the act done was the non-surrender—that act was done on 26th September, and the offence was then complete—then was there a penalty incurred, what was the meaning of the word "penalty?" strictly speaking, perhaps, it had no legal definition, but that it was not confined to pecuniary matters was evident from the common expression of the "penalty of death," the highest punishment known to the law; it was defined by Locke, in a note to the word in Johnson's Dictionary, as a "judicial punishment" and if it was sought to restrict the meaning of the word to pecuniary penalties, some authority jor such restriction should be produced; it appeared to him that those who drew this Act of Parliament intended, by the use of large and general words, to include both civil and criminal proceedings; as the question was one of considerable importance, if any substantial doubt existed on the subject, it might be reserved for the Court of Criminal Appeal. MR. TINDAL ATKINSON, on the same side, urged that the word "penalty" must be taken in its largest sense, as it was still preserved, notwithstanding the offence itself was by the new Act reduced from a felony to misdemeanour.
MR. METCALFE was heard in reply: he inquired, if "penalty" applied to imprisonment and punishment for an offence committed under this Act; whether that offence was a felony or a misdemeanour? but for the reservation, the former Act was repealed; that Act made the offence a felony, by the present Act it was a misdemeanour; yet it was contended that notwithstanding the offence of felony was taken amay, the offence was continued because the penalty remained; that tended to show that if it preserved anything connected with it, it ought to have kept alive the offence eo nomire. (THE RECORDER. They are bound to prove a felony; unless it is a felony you have an acquittal.) How did they show this to be a felony? they urged that the penalty for a certain thing was kept alive; he contended that the offence was not kept alive, because the words "shall be deemed a felony" were swept away, and if the penalty remained, there was no power which preserved the right of indicting for this offence. In the Criminal Law Consolidation Act, passed contemporaneously with this, not only were the offences preserved, but the power to try and determine was all to continue as before; here there was no such thing; and supposing "penalty" meant, as was contended, the power of transporting, as well as of inflicting a fine, where was the power to indict or sentence, or what was to be the mode of getting at the parties; he submitted that all that was preserved was the penalty in respect of any matter or thing done; there were no words that were equivalent to an offence, or which showed that it was intended to keep alive criminal proceedings.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY called attention to 255th section of the old Act, to the sworn information on which the warrant was granted, and the direction of the Commissioner to prosecute.
THE RECORDER. "I must say that I am very much impressed by the last point put by Mr. Metealfe; I am inclined to think that the penalties are preserved and continued, but I am doubtful whether the offence of felony is continued; and it is necessary for the prosecution to show that a felony has been committed; upon that point I entertain so much doubt that I feel disposed to reserve it, as a similar question may occur in other cases."
Henry Henderson, jeweller, of the Strand, and James Corss, clothier, of Shoreditch, deposed to the prisoner's good character.
GUILTY .— JUDGMENT RESERVED .
PLEADED GUILTY .*— Confined Eight Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .
He received a good character.—Four Years' Penal Servitude
NEW COURT.—Monday, December, 16th, 1861.
PRESENT.—Mr. Ald. CONDER, and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
92. JOHN UNDERWOOD JOSSLYN (32), was again iudicted (See page 44) for embezzling the sums of 2l. 3s., 3l. 9s. and 5l.; also, the sums of 5l., 2l.,4s., and 2l. 13s. 6d. which he had received on account to his master, William Walker, upon which MR. SLEIGH for the Prosecution offered no evidence.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. TAYLOR conducted the Prosecution.
HENRY EDWARDS , I am a lodging-house keeper, of 16, Grove-place, Brompton—the defendant was my lodger there—she left in October last, in my debt, and at her own consent I detained some of her property—I have not got the papers with which I was served from the Hammersmith Police-court—a man afterwards called on me.
MR. HANDLEY. I was retained to conduct the prosecution, but was not employed—I object to produce anything—I was asked to go and compromise this matter, and declined—I will answer no questions unless His Lordship orders me—I am retained. in writing by the prosecutor—I have been acting as clerk to Mr. Munday for the last seven years—the prosecutor did not entrust me with any papers relating to this matter; papers were entrusted into my hands by the Magistrate of the Court, Mr. Daymond.
COURT. Q. Hive you got them in Court? A. Yes; these are them—I did not abandon the prosecution, but I was repudiated because I would not go and compound it, having a written retainer—he wanted to compromise the matter a week ago, and I refused to see him—I said I will have nothing to say to him—I obtained these summonses (produced) against Henry Edwards from the Magistrate.
COURT to HENRY EDWARDS. Q. Is this your signature. (To the retainer)? A. Yes; I did not know that it was a retainer when I signed it—I received this paper (One of the summonses) before the man called on me—he called in reference to the matter that this paper relates to.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON, Q. Do you mean to say that that is the paper that was served on you? A. I do not know; I think it would be wrong to answer the question—I am so disinterested in the matter that I cannot say.
COURT. Q. What did you do with the paper that was served on you? A. Mr. Handley has it.
COURT to MR. HANDLEY. Q. Is this the only one you have got? A. No; I have got others—there were two—I cannot find the one mentioned by Mr. Paynter.
COURT to HENRY EDWARDS. Q. Was a paper served on you A. Yes; and I afterwards went before the Magistrate, but I did not appear to the summons—this other paper (produced) was served on me by the police, on the Wednesday morning. (MR. RIBTON objected to this being ready it not being signed by the Magistrate; it commenced, "The defendant is ordered to deliver up," which might be written by anybody.)
MR. TAYLOR. Q. You say that you received this paper on the Wednesday morning when the man came to you? A. The man came to me on the Tuesday evening, and the defendant was then outside the door on the opposite side of the way—it was brought by the police-constable Fletcher—I am quite sure that this is the summons he brought.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Will you swear that is the identical paper that was served on you? A. No; how can I swear if? I never looked at it.
COURT. Q. You have just said that it was served on you by Fletcher? A. This is the summons that was served on me—this is, I believe, the paper that I gave to Handley.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Will you swear it? A. No, I will not.
MR. HANDLEY. It is not the one you gave me.
GEORGE FLETCHER . I am warrant officer to the Hammersmith Police-court—I heard the defendant apply to the Magistrate for a summons against Mr. Edwards for detaining her boxes—the information was taken down afterwards—her application was granted, a summons was issued, and I served a paper on Mr. Edwards immediately after that application, which I copied from this, the original summons—I served that copy—I served it upon a female on the premises—I saw the defendant attend before the Magistrate on 21st October—Mr. Edwards was not present—I heard her admit that she owed Mr. Edwards 3l. 12s., and the Magistrate ordered the goods to be delivered up upon payment of 3l. 12s.—this is what I usually sign when an order is made by the Magistrate—I have seen no order besides this.
COURT. Q. What you call making an order is the Magistrate saying that the goods are to be delivered up? A. Yes.
MR. TAYLOR. Q. Then do you get that minute? A. Yes; from the clerk, I saw him write it—I received this from Mr. Edwards. (Upon MR. TAYLOR proposing to read the minute, MR. RIBTON objected, it being drawn up by the clerk only).
COURT. Q. Was this written in the prisoner's presence? A. I can hardly say; but she was told that she was to receive her boxes upon payment of 3l. 12s. (MR. RIBTON contended that it was necessary to prove the summons first, and then an actual order for the payment of 3l. 12s.)
MR. TAYLOR to MR. HANDLET. Q. Did you receive a paper from Mr. Edwards? A. The only paper I received from him was a minute of that order, I never had a copy of the summons, and I told Mr. Lewis so when he subpoened me to produce a summons by Mr. Ingham, or Mr. Daymond, and I found it was Mr. Paynter's summons that I had. (THE COURT suggested that it was possible that the order never came to Mr. Edwards hands as it was not served upon him personally. MR. TAYLOR contended that as the order was made in the. Defendant's presence for the delivery of the goods, there was enough to support the Third Count. THE COURT considered that it was necessary to prove that the summons was served upon Mr. Edwards. MR. RIBTON further contended that it would be necessary to call all the Magistrates to prove that they gave no order for the delivery of the goods upon the payment of 2l., as the name of any Magistrate had not been mentioned. THE COURT suggested that the Magistrate's clerk ought to be called.)
WILLIAM HENRY ANDREW . I am clerk to the Magistrates at Hammersmith police-court—I remember the defendant applying to the Magistrate relative to her clothes—I was present on 21st October when the summons came on to be heard—the defendant stated her case, and I made a memorandum of what she said; it is very short in consequence of the non-appearance of the defendant—Reading: "Henry Edwards, summons for detaining; George Fletcher served summons on 17th, at defendant's house; Lily Vendinning sworn—I live at the defendant's house, 16, George-place, Brompton—I left on Tuesday last—he detained three trunks of wearing apparel—I demanded them and was refused—I owe him 3l. 12s."—Order to give up goods upon payment of 3l. 12s. and costs"—the defendant made no other application about her goods to the Magistrate—this minute is in my writing—I describe it as a minute of the order under Jarvis's Act—all the statute requires is for that to be served on the defendant.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Was the prisoner near enough to hear what was said? A. I think not.
THE COURT considered that this evidence was not enough to make the defendant responsible for what the man said.
NOT GUILTY .
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
OLD COURT.—Tuesday, December 17th, 1861.
PRESENT—Mr. Ald. SALOMONS, Mr. RECORDER, Mr. Ald. PHILLIPS., and Mr. Ald. CONDER.
Before Mr. Recorder.
97. JOHN HART (21), JAMES WILLIAMSalias STEWART (27), and HENRY EVANS (28) , Feloniously breaking and entering the ware-house of John Innes and another, and stealing therein 6 tons of canvas, value 300l., and 1 cask and 1,680 lbs. of sugar, value 60l., their property; Second count, Feloniously receiving the same.
MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN INNES . I am in partnership with my brother, James Innes, carrying on business at 210, High Street, Wapping, as warehouse-keepers—on the 1st November I went into the warehouse in Cinnamon-street, Wapping—I found that a window on the first floor, about sixteen feet from the ground, had been opened—I found marks on the window-sill as if ropes had cut into it—there was the mark of a rope clearly as if something had been lowered—I also found ropes on the floor with running nooses in them—I found an empty hogshead on the floor which had previously been filled with sugar—I cannot say how shortly before I had seen it—I do not examine all the packages, they are so numerous—it ought to have contained sugar—I found the wrappers of three bales of canvas on the top floor—I missed six bales of canvas—nearly all the ropes which had bound the bales were left on the floor—the ropes that were made into the nooses were a portion of them—with those ropes they could lower those bales out of the window into a court below quite easily, they were just the length to reach to the ground—the weight of the canvas I missed was about six tons, and the sugar about fifteen cwt.—the value of the canvas was I believe from 200l. to 225l., and the sugar about 30l.—I drew the attention of the police to this matter—I have since seen the canvas produced to me by Stimson, and this is a part of it (produced)—they are all marked, and correspond exactly with the way in which my canvas was marked—it does not belong to us—we are merely warehouse-keepers—it corresponds exactly in every respect with the canvas I missed—the sugar has not been found—I have had between five and six bales of canvas produced to me—some of it has been made up into bags—reckoning what is made up into bags, there is more than five and less than six bales—this roll does not represent a whole bale, only about a twenty-fourth part of one—there are twenty-four of these in each bale—ninety-six rolls have been discovered in their original state—there are a certain number which have had the mark cut off—we have discovered ninety-six of these rolls, and I think twenty-four of these other rolls; they have just been cut open—that is all—I think the canvas came from the manufacturers at Dundee, and the mark that I speak of is their mark, and comes up on the canvas—it is the length and breadth of the canvas.
THOMAS HENRT RYMER . I am clerk to Messrs. Innes, and live at 3, Portland Villas, Clapham-road—on 24th October I was in the Cinnamon-street warehouse—it was at that time safe—the bales of canvas were in the ware-house and the sugar in the hogshead—I locked the door and kept the key—as far as I am aware of there was no other key to the warehouse—I kept the key till I gave it to Mr. Innes on 1st November—in consequence of what he told me I went to the warehouse, and I then found it in the state that he has represented—the hogshead that he has spoken of as being then empty, I had previously seen filled with sugar—it was apparently full when I was there on 24th October.
JOHN LOOKER . I am a carman, at 3, Eliza-terrace, Limehouse—I do not let vans out, I go with them myself when anybody hires me—on Thursday, 29th October, I saw Mr. Stewart (Williams) at half-past 5 in the morning,
in my stable—I was in my stable doing up my horse—he asked me whether I could do a job for him—I said, "Yes," and I went with him to do the job—he said I was to be at the firm at 6 o'clock—I said I could be there at that time—he jumped into the van and rode with me—he said it was to move some canvas—he did not say why he wanted to move it—I went with him with the van to the firm—I did not know what firm he meant—I did not know which way to go to it without he went with me—he took me to a wood wharf—I backed into a side place, Clement-street, I think—I did not know the name of the place—he went with me to show me—I am now speaking of the place where I subsequently took the canvas from—I have been there since with Sergeant Stimson—I know now whose warehouse it is—they tell me it is this gentleman's (Mr. Innes)—it is in innamon-street—Stewart jumped out there, and a man came out who I thought was the foreman—he said he was the foreman—he said, "You are all behind"—I said, "No, I am here at 6 o'clock"—he then showed me where to back the van in—I stood at my horses's head—there was not room for me to get either one side or the other when my van was backed in—they were about five minutes loading it—we packed it in the wood yard, not in the warehouse; it was alongside of it—they loaded me up in about five minutes with this canvas; it was in the shape of these—I had one horse—I should think there was a ton of canvas; nothing else besides canvas—I should know the man who said he was the foreman if I were to see him—I have not seen him since—I then drew the van outside and saw Stewart—he said, "It is going all in your road home, go on"—I went as far as my own house—I did not see Stewart, so I put the nose-bag on my horse and left it in the road, and had my breakfast; and then, not seeing Stewart, I drew it for safety into my brother's yard, and left my little boy to mind it, and took my horse out and went to brick carting—the van stood there one day and a half with the load on it—Stewart came and sent my little boy home, the same morning—I was not there then—I saw no one at all during that day and a half about it—I was told something by the little boy at the end of the day and a half, and I called and saw Stewart, and told him I must have the van—I saw him at my own house; be came—I told him I wanted the van—he said he had not got room at home the place was so full, and asked whether I knew of a shed where he could take it to work up into sacks—I sent him to my brother's who has a blacksmith's shop, and he told him it would take nearly a week or a fortnight to clear it out, or he would let it to him—I did not go with him to my brother then—he asked me if I would allow him to put it on my pig-sties—it was put there by Stewart and the foreman the same morning—Stewart said he had an order for so many sacks; that was the reason he wanted some place to make it up—it remained there that afternoon, andhe took an empty room that I had, and he brought it in and cut it up into bags, and the women came to work the next day for him, and worked it up—the day it was put into the shed was a day and a half after the day I took it from the ware-house—it stood over at my brother's a day and a half, and at 2 o'clock on that day they unloaded it in front of my shed, in the road, and on the same evening put it from the shed into the room—Stewart and his man did that, and on 31st the women began to work it up into bags—there, was also a little man there; I do not know who he was—I have never seen him since—I do not see him now—I saw ne'er a one of these men there besides Stewart—I have seen Hart at my place at work with the bags, folding them up—I first saw him there the next day, I think; at the some time the women came; I mean the day after it was put into the room—he came with the
women, and he came that same night to help carry them out of the shed into my room with Mr. Stewart—he used to come now and then, according as Stewart ordered him to do anything—I was not always at home, and cannot say how often he was there—I think this went on about a week before the police came—I dare say Hart might have been there four or five or six times during that week—I saw Stewart there pretty well every day.
Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE (for Hart). Q. You say Stewart directed the women, and I suppose, as far as you saw, he directed Hart also? A. Yes, Hart was employed by Stewart.
Cross-examined by ME. RIBTON (for Stewart). Q. Did you think that all this was right and proper? A. I did not at last, not for about two days before it was found out—when I was asked to go and fetch the canvas I thought it was all right and correct—I was in the yard just as the clock struck 6—it was not dark then, it was getting daylight—I had known Stewart before—I knew where he lived—I did not go to his house with the van, because it was not my road—he told me to go on towards my own house—I made sure he was behind me—he did not order me to take them to his house—he did not order me to take them to my brother's, or' to my own house—he said he would overtake me, or something of that sort—I left my little boy with the van while I went and had my breakfast—I have never been charged with any offence—I was never charged with stealing some stores on any occasion—there was nothing about a private still found working at my premises; I swear that; there was a suspicion six years ago, but there was no private still in my place—they came, and I asked them to come in and look at the place—I do not know what they came for—the officer asked whether there was such a thing as a private still there, and I said, "Walk in and look"—it had not been removed a short time before his arrival—I swear that—there were two men assisting to load this van—Stewart was one, and the tall man the other—there were three women assisting to make the canvas into sacks while Stewart was there—I do not know whether any of them are here—they were not before the Magistrate; they would not come up—my wife went for them and they would not come—I told the police where they were to be found, and my wife went with the police and showed them—I am sure this occurred on 29th—I never called at Mr. Stewart's house on 29th or 30th—I have never called there for two or three years—I saw him on 29th—I believe that was the day—I am no scholar—I do not know Stewart's cousin (Raynham Stewart was here called in)—I do not know that man—I never saw him before in my life—Stewart did not say to me in that man's presence, "I am going out and shall not be long," and ask that man to remain till be came back, nor did we leave together; it is false—I have never called at Stewart's this two years.
Q. Did you and Stewart return in about an hour; and did you say in that man's presence to Stewart, "What can you do with it, Stewart?" A. I never saw that man, so I could not say so in his presence—I first gave information about this, I think, a week afterwards—I first began to think there was something wrong about it on the Friday—the 29th was on the Tuesday—I think I first gave the information on the Monday—on the Friday, Stewart told me he had a bill in his pocket, and he could prove that he had bought it and paid for it—that was in my own house in the presence of my wife, and another lady and her husband—Mrs. Collins was the other lady; she is here—I thought there was something wrong about it, because two gentlemen knocked at my house, and Hart and Stewart were indoors at the time, and when I came to look for them they were gone—in my opinion
they thought they were two officers come for them—they were not two officers—I did not think they were, but I think Stewart did; and when he came back again at night I asked him if the stuff was all right, and then it was he said, "Yes; and I have got a bill in my pocket to prove I bought and paid for it"—he pulled a piece of paper out of his pocket, whether it was a bill or not I cannot say—I did not ask to look at it—I cannot read or write—I was satisfied about the bill, and that was the reason I did not give information then—the policemen came on the Saturday, and I gave them all the information that I could, on the Monday; I did not see them on the Saturday—I gave the information to Stimson—I saw him at my own house at 8 in the morning—I stopped at home on purpose, as my wife bad told him I would meet him there.
Cross-examined by MR. ROBINSON (for Evans). Q. You say you believe it was on the 29th; are you quite sure it was on the Tuesday? A. I am no scholar—it was on the Tuesday morning that I went to fetch it, but I am not sure of the day of the month.
MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Did Hart assist in making the bags? A. No; one morning when I came down he was holding the stuff while his master was cutting it, and the women afterwards made it up.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you take the constables and show them where you brought the stuff from? A. I did; I went with them every where they asked me to go.
WILLIAM PEGLXY . I live at 9, Bird Cage-walk, Hackney-road, and am a line and twine maker—I know Evans—I have been in the habit of buying a great deal of hemp from him—on Thursday, the last day in October, he come to me—I was a-bed when he came, and when I got up he showed me a small bit of canvas as wide as my hand—he said would I oblige him by going up to my shop to know' the value of that canvas—I said I did not mind—we then went together in his horse and cart to Mr. Unite's at Paddington, in St. Alban's-place, Edgeware-road—I went in and saw Mr. Duthoit—Evans was with me—I asked Mr. Duthoit what the canvas was worth that Evans had brought me—after I had ascertained the value from him I and Evans came home together; next morning Evans came to me—he brought the canvas, and asked me if I would let him put it into my warehouse—there was a van load of it—I do not know whose van it was—I did not go and look at the name on it—he asked me to let him put it into my warehouse for a few days—I called off two of my men and told them to go and help the carman to get the canvas in—I was indoors, but I came oat and assisted as well as Evans—we all assisted in taking it in—it remained there a week, till the following Thursday, and then Evans took it away, and I saw no more of it—the canvas was in rolls when it was brought to me, the same as this—I did not notice any mark on it—I said there were seventy or eighty rolls—I should think there was all that; of course I did not count them, and I cannot say—there was a great quantity.
Cross-examined by MR. ROBINSON. Q. How long have you known Evans? A. Between three and four years—he is a hemp-dresser—he prepares the hemp for as to spin—I have had considerable dealings with him—I have known him also as a particular friend—he was always a very hard-working man—we both worked together journey work—he has always borne a very good character—when he brought the piece of canvas to me, I took it to Mr. Unite—a person of the name of Shepherd came down that same evening in his horse and cart—he was a stout man—he was a person who answered to the name of Shepherd—he came the same evening that
went up to Unite's—when I speak of Thursday, it was 31st October—Evans told me that that was the gentleman that belonged to the canvas—he was a respectable man—I had never known him before—he appeared to act as the owner of the canvas—I conducted a negociation with Shepherd for the purchase—I told him I could sell fifty bolts, but I should expect a farthing a yard commission for my trouble—I saw Shepherd twice; he was with Evans both times, and on both occasions the goods were treated as Shepherd's—the goods were put into a regular warehouse—I am a rope line and twine maker—I have no shop.
MR. RIBTON to JOHN LOOKER. Q. Did you superintend the making up of the bags? A. Never; I had my own mason's work to do—I did not give any direction to a person of the name of Mary Donovan—I do not know any of them by name—(Mary Donovan was here called in)—that was one of the women at work—I gave no direction to her in the least—she did not put a piece of the canvas up against the window, nor did I take it down and say I did not wish it to be seen.
JOHN STIMSON (Police-sergeant, K 21). On 5th November, I went to Stewart's mother's house in Broad-street, Ratcliffe, in company with police-constable Smith—we found Stewart and Hart there—I asked them if they had had any canvas offered, telling them what sort it was, and I produced a sample which I had with me—I have the sample here—I asked if they had any canvas of that description offered; Stewart said no, they had not—I told them that a warehouse at Wapping had been broken into, and nine biles of canvas stolen there from, and they would be offered either in rolls or in bolts—this is what they call a bolt or roll; some people call them one thing and some another—he said no he had not had them brought there; they would not bring them there, they would take it farther a-field—we then left—it is a marine-store dealer's shop; that was the reason I made inquiries—I went to all the marine-store dealers about the neighbourhood—on Friday, 8th November, I was in Roadswell-street, Stepney—I saw Stewart there in a van, and two other men—I do not know who they were; I am not confident—I was then in plain clothes—Stewart looked toward where I was standing, the van was coming towards the right, and he made a signal to the man driving to go the other way, towards the left—I was coming over a bridge, one of the turnings inclined to the right, and the other to the left—I then commenced watching about there, and afterwards went to No. 3, Roadswell-road, that is Looker's—I did not see any more of Stewart then, he went away—I went to Looker's house the next morning—I there found 24 bolts of canvas and 165 large sacks, and 400 small sacks—I produce one of each, all the bolts had the marks removed from them—Luker gave me information; he showed me where he had taken the van to, and the timber yard where he had backed the van in—it was just underneath the window that had been broken open in Mr. lnnes' warehouse; he gave me every information and every facility—on Saturday, the 16th, I went to Evans, 7, Green street, Bethual-green—I saw him—he is a hemp dresser and dealer—he had some hemp in his shed—I went to him as a hemp dresser; he did not know who I was—I asked him if he had had any canvas offered him for sale—he said no, he had not—I said, "Is your name Evans?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Are you quite sure you have had none offered, or have you been offering any?"—he said, no, he had not—I then took him to the witness Pegley's, in Bird-cage-walk—I then said, "Step inside"—I put him in first, and the first words he said were "Did I bring any canvas here"—(I had previously asked him if he had taken any there and he said he had not)—Pegley
replied, "Evans, you did; why don't you tell this man the whole truth about it?"—he said he did not know anything about it—I then asked him if he had not been with Pegley to Mr. Unite's at Paddington, offering it for sale—he said he had not—I said "You went there in your pony and cart"—he said no, he had not—I then took him to the station, and there he denied it again, and said he knew nothing about it—on the Monday following, when he went over to the police court, he said he wished he had told the whole truth about it; that a man of the name of Shepherd had brought it to him, and he had taken it to Pegley's.
Cross-examined by MR. ROBINSON. Q. I believe when he was denying it and telling what was clearly a lie, Pegley said to him, "Why don't you tell the whole truth, no harm can come to you?" A. Yes; he did—in spite of that he went on stating that he had nothing to do with the canvas—he was crying the next day.
REBECCA LOOKER . I am the wife of John Looker—I know Stewart—on 30th October, be came to my house and asked me if I would let him a room—I said, "Yes"—I asked him what it was for—he said he had bought a quantity of canvas and wanted it worked up into bags; if I would let him a room at half-a-crown a week he would pay me—I let him the room—the canvas was brought from the pig-sty into that room the previons night, and the next morning I saw Stewart and Hart at half-past 5—one woman came that day, and the next morning three women—Stewart and Hart worked with them—I did not know what the stuff was, but they were making it up into bage.
Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Hart worked in the room with the women, did he? A. Occasionally; not with the women, he assisted Mr. Stewart in cutting up for the women—the women did the sewing part, making the bags—I do not know who the women are—I know one, by a gentleman sending two policemen with me down a court, and I pointed two of the women out to one of the officers—they were quite strangers to me, and so was Hart, I never saw him before—I had known Stewart before—they all came to work at the canvas.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Was it on Wednesday that you saw Stewart for the first time? A. Wednesday evening—he came after I came home from my day's work—I saw nothing of them on the Tuesday—I did not see my husband go out on Tuesday morning—he went out at half-past 5—he got up very early, he always does; I cannot tell what time—it was not earlier than 4—I cannot tell you whether it was 5, I do not know—it was not in the middle if the night—I did not see Stewart the remainder of Tuesday—I first saw him on the Wednesday evening after I came home from my milk walk—I first saw my husband on Tuesday at breakfast—no, he had had breakfast before I got home—I do not remember whether he was in the house when I arrived at home—I did not see him till dinner time—he told me that he had put the van into his brother's yard, for he wanted the horse to go to work with—I do not know whether he was out that afternoon—I attended to my milk business all the afternoon—I am out all the afternoon—I never-knew there to be a private still at work at our place in my life—I do not know what such a thing is—there was a gentleman came; I do not know whether he was an excise officer or what, but he came and examined two empty rooms that my lodgers had left—I had no water on for eight years, so there could be no still; whether he searched or not I cannot say.
am brother of John Looker—I am a smith and boiler maker—on a Tuesday I saw the van in my yard, but I did not take notice of the day of the month—it was not my brother's van—the name of Price was on the van—canvas was in the van, in rolls, from what I could see of it—I did not take a deal of notice of it—I saw Stewart that same day—I never knew him before—I was a bed at the time—it was between 10 and 11 in the morning; I was not very well—my little boy came in and said something to me—Stewart came to my place with my brother, who said he had been drawing a load of goods for this gentleman, and had only put it into the yard till 4 o'clock—I asked him what business he had to put it in the yard without my consent—he laid he thought he could take the liberty of putting it in, and Stewart and he went away together—Stewart did not say anything about it then—I saw him the next afternoon—he wanted a place to put some canvas; it was gone out of my premises then—he wanted me to let him my shed—I told him I would, but could not do so for a week or fort-night—I have got a smith's shop, and also let a place out where carts stand—he then went away—the van had been taken away before that—on the following Monday evening I saw him again—he then asked me whether I could let him a room, as I had got two rooms to let—he said he wanted it' to put the canvas in just for a month or six weeks, or two months; he would pay me a month's deposit—I had two rooms, but I told him I could not say I could let him the room; I would converse with my wife upon it, and let him know—I did not let it—my wife said she was going to make a best room of the upstairs room, and a bed-room of the back room.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Was any one present when this conversation took place? A. Yes; but no one who is here—there was a woman of the name of Wiggins, a beer-shop keeper—she is not here—I suppose she heard this conversation.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Which conversation? A. Regarding Stewart's asking me for the room—that was on the Monday.
ROBERT SMITH (Policeman, K 253). On Sunday afternoon, 17th November, I was passing the cell in the police-station where Evans was—he asked me what it was a clock—I told him it was about 3, he commenced crying—and said, "I wish I had told you the truth, as Pegley did; I should not have been here any more than he has"—he said, "I will tell you the truth, and where it was"—he told me that he carted the ninety-six rolls of canvas from Pegley's, in Bird-cage-walk, to Ernest-street, White Horse-lane, Stepney, where he put it into a shed—he said that a man of the name of Shepherd had brought two loads to his house in Green-street; he housed one, and one he took to Pegley's, and that was the one he took to a man named Appleton, in Ernest-street—he said he housed one in his own place, and a man he called Little Jemmy had taken that away, a few rolls at a time, in a pony and cart—I do not know who Little Jemmy is—I then went with Stimson to Ernest-street, and knocked at Appleton's door—I saw a shed there, with a lock on it, and through a crevice, against the shed, I saw one of the rolls of canvas—I drew the staple, and found the canvas; ninety-six rolls of this description; this is one of the rolls—we took possession of them, and they are part of what has been produced to-day.
Cross-examined by MR. ROBINSON. Q. When was the first examination before the Magistrate? A. Stewart was first examined—he had been examined at that time—Evans was examined on the 18th, I think, the day after this conversation—he appeared to be in great distress at the time, and considerably excited.
JOHN APPLETON . I live at 1, Ernest street, Stepney, and am a rope and twine maker—I have known Evans for some time—the constable took away a qnantity of canvas from the shed at my place—Evans brought it there—I do not know when—it was about from the 1st to the 9th or 10th November; on one of the days between the 1st and the 9th; I cannot say which—I did not see Shepherd at all at my place—I saw him and another man in a public-house, and had some conver-sation—that was before the stuff came to my place—I have never, to my knowledge, seen the person that was with Shepherd with Evans—I went to Evans' house, and had some conversation with him about the canvas—I asked him how Shepherd came to know where I lived—this was after the constable had been; after I had heard the evidence at the Thames-police—he said that Shepherd told him that he had taken the shed of me, and they brought the canvas there.
Cross-examined by MR. ROBINSON. Q. Had you been in the habit of seeing Shepherd before this? A. Once or twice—he was a very decent-looking person—I am not well known about the neighbourhood where I saw them—I saw him at the public-house—Evans did not say that he had not told Shepherd to hire my place; he never said anything of the kind to me—he said that Shepherd had told him he had got my address elsewhere—he said, "Shepherd told me he had taken the place of you, and we took the canvas there"—I do not recollect his saying that Shepherd had told him that he had learnt from somebody else about my shed.
MARK STRICKITT . I live at Blundell-street, Caledonian-road, and am a rope maker—on 3d November, Evans and his wife came to me in a pony cart—Evans showed me a sample of sacking; I call it canvas; it was this sort of canvas—he said he had some to sell for a party, and offered it to me at 3 1/2 d. a yard—I did not buy it—it was Sunday morning—he did not say where he had it, or who the party was.
Cross-examined by MR. ROBINSON. Q. He mentioned no name? A. No.
MR. RIBTON. Q. I understand the quantity found at this place is much less than what you lost? A. Yes—we know it by the marks of the length and breadth-others might have exactly the same—we lost a quantity of sugar also—I was at the warehouse on 1st November; not on the 30th or 31st—it was not open.
COURT. Q. There is not a great quantity missing, is there? A. There are missing, I suppose, about seventy or eighty more rolls—I do not know the value of this a yard; I believe about 4d. or 4 1/2 d.
CATHERINE COLLINS . I am a married woman—my husband lives at 18, St Phillips'-terrace, St. Dunstan's-road, Stepney—I was present at Mr. Looker's one Thursday evening—I saw Stewart come in that evening—I was there for a little while—I forget the month—it was about six weeks ago I should think, I did not take particular notice—I heard him say that the goods were bought and paid for, and he had got the receipt in his pocket to prove it—I did not hear what was said in answer to it—I only heard thnee words.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. What time was it? A. I should think about 9 o'clock in the evening—my husband was with me at the time—Mrs. Looker was also present, and Mr. Stewart—they were the only four in the room—Mr. Looker was not there—my husband is not here—I was not examined before the Magistrate—it was not in answer to any questions 1 heard that he made that remark—I am no relation of Mr. Looker, nor of
Mrs. Looker—I am not particularly a friend of theirs, nor in the habit of visiting them very often; perhaps once in a mouth or two, or it may be more than that—I have known them about two years—my husband is a permanent man at St. Katharine's docks—he goes round to Looker's at times, because he keeps pigs the same as Mr. Looker, and he goes round to get stuff for them—my husband does not keep a van—he was at Mr. Looker's perhaps about once a week or once a fortnight, just calling when passing—I merely called in that evening to see how Mrs. Looker and her family were, as I passed—I and my husband called in.
COURT to WILLIAM PEGLEY. Q. What day was it that you went with Evans to Unite's and showed them the sample? A. On Thursday, the 31st—I asked 4d. a yard for it, and he said, "Well, then, they want too much for it, Pegley; duty has risen lately; sometime ago we could buy it for 3d., but I believe that we could buy it in Scotland for 3d., but stop a minute, I will go and look in the book," and he went and looked in the book and said, "Six weeks ago we were buying it at 3d."—he said he would take fifty bales of me at threepence a yard if I could get anything out of it"—I told Evans, and then Evans brought Shepherd down to me in the evening.
MR. RIBTON called the following witnesses.
WILLIAM STEWART . I live at 145, Rotherhithe-street, and am a labourer in the employment of Mr. Mullens of Old Gravel-lane—I recollect the 28th October—it was my birthday—I saw my brother, the prisoner, on that day—he came to tea and supper with me—he came just before 6—it might have been 6—I have been in the habit of celebrating that anniversary—I keep that day not every year, but sometimes—I did it on this occasion—my cousin, Rayuham Stewart, came with him, and remained till about half-past 11—my cousin left—the prisoner did not leave, he remained till about 9 in the morning—he had had a little drop to drink the same as we had—I proposed he should sleep there, and made him up a bed and he slept there—I saw him go to bed—I got up next morning about 6 or a little before; it might be a quarter to 6—he slept in the next room to me—I saw him before he left—I went into his room and had some conversation with him—I saw him in bed, and left him in bed—I returned to my breakfast at 8 o'clock, and he was there then—he breakfasted with me—I do not know when he left—I left him there at half-past 8 o'clock.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. How old are you? A. Thirty—I have no register of my brother's birth—I, my wife, my cousin, and my brother, the prisoner, were keeping my birthday, no one else—we waited on ourselves—we don't keep servants—my income won't allow us—we fetched the beer ourselves; at least, I brought the most part of it from Mr. Fowler's, the Noah's Ark—I do not keep my birthday every year—this was not an accident; it was because it completed the ten years—I kept it once when I was twenty, and not since—we might have had a drop the day I was twenty-nine, but no friends at all, no such meeting as this—there were only four of us—I did not speak to Stimson, the constable, at any time that I am aware of—I saw him at my mother's house in Broad-street—I cannot state the date of that—I dare say it might be three weeks back—my brother was not there at that time, he was in prison—I never recollect seeing the man before my brother was locked up this time—I told him that I had not seen my brother for a long time, and I can prove it—I told the constable about three weeks back, when he came into my mother's house, that I had not seen my brother for about three months—that was true—I can prove it to be true—you are putting questions to me that I really cannot answer—he asked me if I had seen my brother to-day—I had been at the House of
Detention to see him—I said I had not spoken to him for months before; that was true—he was at my place on the birthday and I spoke to him—I never said that I bad not seen my brother for three months—the constable came into the shop and asked me if I had seen my brother that day—I said, "Yes"—he said. "What did he have to say?"—I said, "Nothing much."
COURT. Q. What did you mean by saying just now that you told the, constable you had not seen your brother for three months? A. I said I had not spoken to him for several months before.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Then you did not speak to him on the birthday? A. That was since—not since he was locked up, but before—I said I had not spoken to him for several months before this transaction that he stands charged with—I did not tell the constable that he was at my house on the birthday, and that I had spoken to him then; I had no occasion to do it—I told him when he came into my mother's house that I had not spoken to him—I can prove that was true—I told him that I had nothing to do with my brother, that I did not speak to him—I knew then that he was inquiring about this matter, but I was not going to tell him all I knew—I did not say anything about the birthday—I did not go before the Magistrate and tell him of it—my brother was three times before the Magistrate—I believe I was there twice—I did not say anything about the matter there—I was never asked such a thing—I could not have got him out if I had stated it.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Where was it that this took place between you and the constable? A. In my mother's shop—I do not know the date—I suppose it is about three weeks ago—he and another came in private clothes—they were talking to my mother, and she called me out—he said to me, "Have you seen your brother to-day?" I said, "Yes"—he said, "What did he have to say?" I said, "Nothing much"—that was all, and then I walked inside again—it was the same evening that I told the consatab'e that I had not seen my brother or spoken to him for several months—it was not exactly at the same time—it was a few minutes afterwards—I came into the shop again, and had a second conversation with him—my mother got talking about one thing, and I said to him, "I have not spoken to my brother for weeks and for months"—I know it was not true that I had not spoken to my brother for months.
COURT. Q. But you have said several times that it wan true, are you still quite sure that you saw him at your house on your birthday? A. He was at my house, and he slept at my house in the way I have described.
RAYNHAM STEWART . I live at 5, Clarence-street, Waterloo-town, Bethnalgreen—I am a traveller, in the employ of Higley and Co., bottle merchants—I remember the 28th October—it was the birthday of my cousin, the last witness, William Stewart—I was invited to go to his house—the prisoner John Stewart, accompanied me—we got there about 6, and left about half-past, 11, and I left the prisoner behind me—I did not bear any conversation about his sleeping there—I went straight home from there—I saw him again the next day, Tuesday, the 29th, about half-past 10 o'clock, at his mother's house, 95, Broad-street, Ratcliflf—I know the witness John Looker—I was in the parlour that day and saw a person—I did not know his name but I could recognise him—I was afterwards told his name—his name was John Looker (looking at him), that is the person—he came in and asked my cousin to go and look at some canvas—my cousin said, "I will see, and I will let you know"—and he came in to me and said, "I must leave you"—he went away with Looker—I remained till he came back—he told me to do so—he was away about an hour, and they came back together—I heard
Looker say to my cousin, "Well, can you do anything with it?"—my cousin said, "Well, I don't know"—Looker said, "Do you think you can get it made up into bags for me?" my cousin said, "I don't know, but I will let you know in a day or two's time"—and that was all I heard pass between them—I left about one o'clock, or a little after—I saw Looker go out of the house before me—I left at 1 o'clock—my book will prove where I was on the Friday—it shows the day I worked at Ratcliff—I worked at journey work—this is my order book (produced).
Cross-examined. Q. What do you say about the Friday? A. That was the day I was asked to go to my cousin's house to supper—it was the Friday previous to the 28th, which was on the Monday—I walked to the prisoner's house at half-past 5, on the Monday, and went with him to my cousin's house—the prisoner supped with us—my order book will show that I was at work in Ratcliffe—the conversation that I have spoken of took place at the Marine store dealers, my aunt's house; she was out at the time, and so was my other cousin, and there was only the prisoner and myself in the shop; by my aunt, I mean the mother of the prisoner—I believe William Stewart lives there—it was on the Tuesday morning, the day after the birthday, that I saw Looker there—I do not know whether John lives there—I went to inquire how he was, and found he was there—Alfred, a younger brother, lives with his mother also—I do not know whether the prisoner lives there—I went there about half-past 10, on the Tuesday, and I had not been in the parlour long before Looker came in—my cousin was in the shop when I went in, and I said to him," John, how are you after last night?"—he said, "Nicely, thank you"—and I went into the parlour which adjoins the shop—I only called as I passed to see how he was—I had left him in a state of intoxication over night—I did not know that he lived there—I had not seen my cousin for a term of nearly twenty years, and I had only found him out the day before, by soliciting orders—I took an order of my very aunt, and that was how I found she was my aunt, and that he was my cousin—I do not know whether his brother and he had not been on good terms—I had not seen John Stewart before the day I took the order of my aunt—I have not seen William Stewart's wife here—she was present at the supper.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Was it on the Friday that you were invited to go and spend the evening on the Monday? A. It was—it was the prisoner, John Stewart, that asked me to go—I had accidentally found out where his mother lived the day before, the Friday, by calling to solicit orders for coals, as the saying is, and I found out that she was my aunt—I had never seen her before e in my life—when I asked her for an order she gave her name to me, and I told her mine, and then I understood she was my aunt, by making inquiries the same evening when I went home—it was the next day, Friday, that I saw the prisoner at his mother's house; having found that she was my aunt I went again, and then saw him there, and then it was he asked me to go to his brother's on the Monday—I left him on the Monday, having drunk a little too much, and I called at my aunt's to know how he was—I did not know where else to go to inquire for him—I had not seen him for twenty years before.
JURY. Q. What is your age? A. Twenty.
COURT. Q. How old is the prisoner? A. I am told he is twenty-eight—I had never seen him until the Thursday when I called at my aunt's—his father is dead—I did not know the prisoner's brother till I went there on the Monday—I did not find out that she was my aunt until I got home on the Thursday night, and then I called next day, and then it was I saw the
prisoner there—I had taken his brother Alfred home with me the same night that I found my aunt out—Alfred was there on the Thursday when I went in, and I took him home on the Monday—I am quite sure they are my cousins, because I have my aunt's certificate at home to prove it—I live with my parents—the prisoner's father was my father's brother—my father had never told me about these relations—I had heard him speak of his brother John being dead, that was the prisoner's father—he has been dead for some years—we never had any family talk about it—my parents are generally a bed when I go home, and I am generally out before they get up.
MARY DONOVAN . I know the prisoner, John Stewart—I recollect going to his house some time in October—I suppose it was five or six weeks ago—I went to look for some work—it was on a Friday—he told me he had none at present; but he knew where I could get a week or two's work—I thanked him, and he said, "If you go anywhere near Bow-common, ask for Mr. Looker's place, and you may get a week or two's work there"—I went the following morning, about half-past 6 o'clock, and got employment there—there were some bags in the room—I saw Mr. Looker's eldest boy, and after some time I saw Mr. Looker himself, and they set me and the other young women to cut bags according to a pattern sack that was there—some time after Mr. Stewart and Mr. Looker both came into the room—Stewart said he thought the bags were not saleable—Looker went down and brought in a rule and measured the bags, and said, "Will they do?"—Stewart said, "I don't know"—I said, "If they are to be made like that we must hem the tops"—we made the bags according to that, and then Stewart said, "If there were some of the small ones we might get a sale of them better than the large ones," so we made some small and some large; but I have not got paid for either—it was Mr. Looker's son who opened the door when I went there, and pointed where I was to go—nothing was said to me about how the sacks came there—Mr. Looker told us to make them as exact as we we could—on the Monday he came in with a small piece, which he gave a young woman next to me—it was on the Saturday that I went there—I worked there all day Saturday—it was not on the Saturday that I saw Stewart and Looker there; it was on the Monday—oh, yes, it was on the Saturday, I made a mistake—there was a piece of canvas put in the window where there was a broken pane, and Looker said, "Take that piece of stuff away," and the girl went and brought a piece of cotton bed-curtain, and fastened it up with a fork at each end—he said he did not want the stuff to be seen—we were supplied with twine to work the sacks—Looker was in and out while we were at work, and his wife and daughter too—he gave us some oil and candle to work with at night—we worked till 9 o'clock—the girl brought in the light.
Cross-examined. Q. How often did you see Stewart there? A. I saw him on the Saturday and on the Thursday—he was there pretty late on the Thursday—I cannot call to mind whether he was there on the Monday or Tuesday—I saw him there several times—I saw Hart there on the Thursday not on the Saturday—he came into the room and began to fold the bags—I only saw him there that day, and I showed him how to fold them—I am in the habit of working at marine warehouses, and have been for the last twelve years—that was why I called at Stewart's—he was not at this place when I went there on the Saturday—it was a good bit after breakfast that he came in—there were two other women employed there—I know them—they would have come here, but they are in great trouble in consequence of their brother being drowned last Wednesday—I was at Arbour-square, but
was not called on to say anything—I did not tell the constable that I was employed by Stewart—I told him that Stewart had directed me there to work—I did not tell the constable that I would not come up unless I was well paid for it—I said I could not waste my time, I had to go to work; and he said, "You are going the wrong way to get paid"—I did not hear of the police coming to the place on the Thursday—it was 9 o'clock on Thursday night when I left—the other young women left with me—Stewart and Hart did not leave with us—when we went on the Friday Mrs. Looker said that the officers had been—we did not work any more after that.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Was it on the Friday that you first knew of the police having been there? A. Yes—I went on the Saturday night and saw Mrs. Looker—she sent oat for a pot of beer and gave it to each of us—she said if the stuff was cut too long she would burn the strips—we did not remain there on the Saturday—I was at work five days altogether.
Evans received a good character.
HART— NOT GUILTY .
STEWART— GUILTY on Second Count.— Confined Eighteen Months.
EVANS— GUILTY on the Second Count.— Confined Nine Months.
Recommended to mercy on account of his good character.
98. CHARLES MORHANGE (24) , Stealing, on 1st July, 100 opera glasses; on 13th September 400 opera-glasses, 2 harmoniums, 1 telescope, 1 barometer, 6 stereoscopes, 1 case of mathematical instruments, and 6 figures; and, on 19th October, 600 opera-glasses and 100 marine-glasses, the property of Leopold Weil, his master; to all of which he
PLEADED GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
100. JAMES BERRETT (26) , Feloniously forging and uttering a request, for the delivery of 10 dozen hat and coat rails, and 2 dozen dining-table fastenings; also, a request for the delivery of 3 dozen dining-table holders, and 4 sets of castors; also, a request for the delivery of 2 sets of brass castors, with inten to defraud, he having been before convicted; to all which he
PLEADED GUILTY .**— Six Years' Penal Servitude.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Three Months.
NEW COURT.—Tuesday, December 17th, 1861.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
MILFORD— PLEADED GUILTY .
MESSRS, CRAWFORD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES BRANNAN . I was formerly Inspector of Police, and am now in the service of the Mint authorities—on 22d October I went to 27, Flower-and-Dean Street, Spitalfields, with Inspector Bryant, and two or three other officers—we found the door open, and proceeded to the second floor front room, the door of which was shut—I broke it open with a sledge hammer, and saw Milford sitting by a clear bright fire, in his shirt sleeves, with a plaster of Paris mould in one hand, wrapped in a pad, and a pipkin containing molten metal in the other—he placed the pipkin on the stove, flung the mould down and stamped upon it—I pushed him off of it, and he was seized by Sergeant Brannan—he resisted violently, and used every effort to destroy the mould—on his being secured, I picked off the floor fragments of a double mould for casting fourpenny-pieces—a portion of lead lodged on the window, which I afterwards picked up; it was hot—on a shelf in the cupboard I found this double mould for sixpences, which was warm (produced)—the prisoner Theobald picked up this cup off the table, containing sand and water, flung it at my face, and out dropped a large quantity of sixpences and fourpenny-pieces—I caught the cup between my arm and body, and did not let it fall to the ground—the sixpenny and four-penny pieces are here—here are twenty-four, dated 1856, and sixteen of 1823—Dyer was with her back to the door, she threw down a quantity of sixperices and fourpences on the table, which I afterwards picked up (produced), and which were wet with sand and water—it is a very small room, the table was near the fire, and they all sat round it—I told Milford I had received instructions to look after him and endeavour to put a stop to his practice in dealing largely in counterfeit coin—he said, "I have not been long at it, Mr. Brannan; not more than three or four months, indeed, I might say this is my first time"—I found a file on the table with white metal in it's teeth as if recently used; a piece of glass with plaster of Paris adhering to it; some plaister of Paris in powder, and all the necessary implements for coining—there was no battery, they colour the coins with a saucer and a wire, which is immersed in a solution of cyanide of silver—we found everything necessary for coining—I gave the coins and moulds to Mr. Webster—I found two genuine sixpences and three or four groats.
BENJAMIN BRYANT (Police-inspector, G). I followed Brannan into the room, and saw Milford throw away the mould, and saw the two women sitting at a table scouring sixpences with sand, to rub off the blue and prepare them for silvering—I took Theobald in custody, and took from her right hand these five counterfeit sixpences wet with sand, as were her hands—I said you have been scouring these—she said, "Yes, I suppose I have"—at her feet I found a packet of ten sixpeuces separately wrapped in paper; they were finished and fit for circulation—she asked me to give her her gown, shawl, and bonnet off the bed, which I did—I asked her whether she lived there—she said, "You see I do"—I took her to the station—Dyer was in charge of another officer—they were throwing the things about so that we were obliged to look very closely after them.
WILLIAM BROAD (Police-inspector, H). I went with the other officers—on entering the room I saw Theobald take the cup from the table and throw the contents at Mr. Brannan—there was then a complete scattering of coin all over the room—Dyer was behind Mr. Brannan, and went towards him with her hands as if to take hold of him—I caught her by her hands, then let go of one hand and held her by the other, and picked from the floor eight sixpences and four groats (produced)—two of the groats were quite blue—on the floor, at the head of the bed, I found a saucer with wet sand, in which were these four sixpences and four groats embedded—in a cupboard by the fire-place I found this piece of copper wire—I heard Milford say, "We all three live here"—the other two could hear him say that—I said, "You cannot all three sleep in that bed, it is a very small one"—they made no reply—I said to Milford, "What rent do you pay for the room?"—he said, "Three shillings a week"—from some nails in the room I took down two more women's dresses, one of which Dyer put on, also a bonnet and cloak which were in the room, and a silver guard which was on the mantel-piece—it was taken from her at the station—she said that it was her property.
JAMES BRANNAN, JUN . (Police-sergeant, G 21). I went with the other officers, and taw Milford struggling with the first witness—I secured him—both the female prisoners rose from the table and scattered the things on it about the room.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am Inspector of Coin to her Majesty's Mint—this is a fragment of a double mould for fourpences—here is a counterfeit coin which fell from it at the time, with part of the get attached to it—here is a double sixpenny mould of 1853 and 1856—and among the counterfeit coin produced, I find two good sixpences, which have been used to make this mould from—here are sixteen counterfeit sixpences of 1853, all from that mould, and twenty-four from the 1856 mould—I also found some counterfeit fourpences in the moulds in which they were made, and the patterns used for making the moulds.
THEOBALD and DYER— GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.
James Brannan, Sen., stated that Milford lived by coining, and employed women and children to pass it, in shops where there were old persons or children serving.— Six Years' Penal Servitude.
OLD COURT.—Wednesday, December 18th, 1861.
PRESENT—The Right Hon. the LORD MAYOR; Mr. JUSTICE KEATING; Mr. Ald. COPELAND, M.ZP.; Sir JOHN MUSGROVE , Bart. Ald.; Mr. Ald. SALOMONS, M.P.; Sir HENRT MUGGERIDGE , Knight, Ald; Mr. Ald. CONDER; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Justice Keating.
MR. PLATT conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS WEST . I am a cigar-maker, of 22, Park-street, Tabernacle-square—on Saturday, 23d November last, I was with the deceased, William Sylvester, at the White Hart public-house, in Hooper-square, Whitechapel—we went into the parlour—the prisoner was there—the first thing that called my attention was the prisoner making use of bad language, and the deceased
said he was surprised to hear such language from a man, especially in the parlour—after that they had a few words of talking, and the prisoner made a blow or shove with his elbow at the deceased—the deceased was then sitting on a seat in a corner close by the prisoner—after that the prisoner struck him in the face, a back-handed slap—I do not think he did anything when the prisoner shoved him with his elbow—he said something, but I cannot say what—he did not strike the prisoner—the back-handed blow was a heavy one, it drew blood—I saw his nose bleeding a trifle, not much—on receiving that blow Sylvester got up and tried to return it, but I do not know whether he did or not—the prisoner then commenced fighting with his fists—he struck him several times about the face, as it appeared to me—I should say five or six times—the deceased was then in a sitting position in the corner—the prisoner got up when he made the blows with his fist-**the deceased tried to get up, but the prisoner being so much heavier a man, forced him down again—the deceased was a smaller man than myself—about this time, James Sylvester, the deceased's brother, came into the room—he went to his brother's assistance—I believe he made a blow at the prisoner—I cannot say whether it took effect or not; they had a scuffle between the three—the landlord then came in and said he would have no fighting there, and he proceeded to push them out of the room—a few minutes afterwards I heard a scuffling at the bar, and I went to see what was the matter—I had remained in the parlour—I saw several persons round the bar, and the deceased lying on the floor—I believe the prisoner was one of the persons round him—I saw James Sylvester endeavouring to pull his brother up—I think I remarked, "Let the man get up; do not strike him when he is down," and then his brother carried him to the door—I followed him out of the door; he laid his brother down on the ground, and then told him to get up, and he replied, "I cannot; my leg is broken"—I afterwards helped to put him in a cab, and take him to the hospital—I saw that he was injured—he had been drinking a little, but knew perfectly well what he was about—the prisoner appeared to be in about the same state.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do you mean by that, that they were both drunk? A. No; not drunk, they had been drinking a little—you could hardly term it worse for liquor—it was obvious they had been drinking—I should say it was the prisoner who first made use of the bad language—I had been there about three-quarters of an hour, I should say—I had been drinking very little indeed—I had about half a glass of gin in the house, and I do not think I had had three pints of beer the whole afternoon—the scuffle which resulted in the fall of the deceased was in the bar, not outside the house—I was not there when it commenced; it was all over when I came up—I should say about five minutes intervened between their leaving the parlour and my seeing the deceased on the ground—I do not know how he came on the ground—I did not see him struck when he was down—I merely used that expression in the flurry of the moment.
JAMES SYLVESTER . I am the brother of the deceased, and am a cigarmaker, living at 8, Black Don-yard, Whitechapel—he died on Wednesday, 27th November, at the London Hospital—I was at the White Hart on the 23d, attending a club in the upstair's room—I was about leaving the house with other members, when I heard that my brother was in the parlour, and I went to bid him good night—I found him sitting at the further corner, at the extreme end of the seat—the prisoner sat on his right hand, close to him—it was a small room, and very full—I saw the prisoner in the act of striking him in the face with his right hand as hard as he could—the blow produced
a bruise on his face, and his nose bled—those who knew my brother could see that he had been drinking something, though he was decidedly not drunk, or in any way incapable—I should say the prisoner, from his appearance, was more advanced in drink—I saw him deliberately strike my brothe again, and I crossed the room hurriedly, and got to him as soon as I could; but the room being full, it was occupied in the middle of it by persons sitting on chairs—I called to the prisoner as I got near him, and meant to stop his arm, for he was about striking a second time—I was about getting hold of his arm, and he threw it over my face, to keep me off, and I was instantly engaged in a scuffle with him—I pulled him out of the seat, turned him round, and got into it to screen my brother—he held on to me, and hugged me, and forced me down with my back on the settle, in the place he had sat in, and we were in that position when the landlord entered—he said he would not hare any noise there—he first pushed the prisoner out of the room—my brother did not want to go out; he was forced out by the landlord—he resisted with all his might—I followed them—I appealed to the landlord not to turn him out, as he might get ill-used—when we got to the bar the prisoner stood in front of my brother, and a companion of his, of the name of Pierson—they were both calling on my brother to come out and fight—he said nothing—he remained at the bar alongside of me—the prisoner kept calling my brother names, and me also, and urging him to go out to fight—from Pierson's threatening me, I was forced to leave my brother, and as I did so my brother struck at the prisoner, and said, "Get away"—the prisoner was in front of him at the time, in a threatening attitude, demanding that he should come out to fight—there was great passion displayed when my brother struck him—he took hold of my brother by the collar, and hugged him close to him, turned him round from the bar, and they reeled or inclined towards a corner, about six feet from where my brother had been standing, and they fell into the corner, my brother downwards, and the prisoner on the top of him—I do not know whether he threw him, or how it was, but my brother went under him—he was a very slight man—I do not know that he laid bold of the prisoner; I could not see that—the prisoner is a very powerful man compared to my brother—I picked him up—I found that he did not attempt to use his legs, and as soon as I got him out of hearing of the others, he said his leg was broken—he had had no other fall as far as I saw.
Cross-examined. Q. Was not this scuffle commenced by your brother going up to the prisoner and striking him a blow right full in the face. A. No; my brother did not go up to him—he stood with his back against the bar—he struck at him; whether the blow reached his face or not I cannot say—Pierson engaged me, while I was endeavouring to protect my brother, and he wanted to fight me for interfering—I am sure my brother did not go up to the prisoner and strike him; it could not have occurred without my seeing it.
HENRY KULKE . I keep the White Hart public-house in Hooper-square, Whitechapel—on this night I saw a scuffle take place between the prisoner, the deceased, and the last witness, in the parlour—that was what I first observed—on seeing that, I caught hold of the deceased and pushed him out of the room, and said I did not want any fighting or any row in my establishment—I likewise pushed the prisoner out—there is a passage leading from the parlour to the bar, about thirty or forty feet long—I walked up to the bar and stood there for about a quarter of an hour-there were still very angry words on both sides; they were talking about fighting and what they
would do—the prisoner said something about licking the deceased, or anybody else—another man stood between the prisoner and the deceased, and the deceased's brother stood behind him—all of a sadden the deceased rushed by the man that stood between him and the prisoner, and struck the prisoner in the face—a scuffle ensued, and they both fell on the floor in the bar—I believe each laid hold of the other—I can't say who laid hold first—I am sure I saw the deceased strike the prisoner in the face—I found afterwards he had struck him in the eye, and almost blinded him—I can't say who fell uppermost, but I believe it was the prisoner—the deceased's brother took him outside, and he said he could not stand, that his leg was broken—they appeared to have been drinking.
Cross-examined. Q. Was the deceased very much the worse for liquor? A. I can't say that he was; I think they were both alike—they were not what you would call drunk—this occurred about 11 o'clock—I only knew the prisoner as an occasional customer—I have not been there long.
MR. LING. I am house-surgeon at the London Hospital—the deceased was brought there on Saturday night, 23d November—he had sustained a compound fracture of the right thigh bone—he died on the following Wednesday evening from the shook—he never recovered from the shook caused by the injury.
Cross-examined. Q. Was he a man of bad habit of body? A. He was rather; he was about thirty years of age—he was not labouring under any disease—I made a post-mortem examination, and found nothing else to account for death—mortification did not set in—he died from the shock to the nervous system—the local injury was progressing favourably—he had his senses all the time—I apprehended serious consequences from the first—he was taken suddenly worse on the day he died, and he died about 8 in the evening—I had seen him about an hour before, and again about three hours before that—I was called to him suddenly about an hour before his death—when I saw him three hours before I anticipated fatal results, he had sickness and was very faint—I examined all the viscera—I found tubercles of the lungs, not sufficient to account for death—they were not in a state of suppuration—I examined the brain.
MR. PLATT. Q. Would a fall arising in a scuffle between two persons, the other being the more powerful man of the two, be likely to cause the fracture? A. Yes; I have no doubt that he died from the results of the fracture.
CHARLES JOSHUA GEAVES (Police-sergeant, H 14). I took the prisoner into custody, on 28th November, at his house—I said, "Maddely, you will have to go with me"—he said, "What for?"—I said, "For this unpleasant affair about poor Sylvester"—he said, "Very well"—I told him he was dead—he said "I am very sorry; I have asked after him several times, but I did not hear that he was dead."
GUILTY .— Confined Three Months.
MR. METOCALFE conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM GLASS . I am a millwright, residing at Henry Cottage, Philip-street, Bath—I became acquainted with the prisoner prior to March last-some time before March I spoke to him about an action against somebody—he advised me as to an attorney—he mentioned the name of Mr. Tood or Todd, I am not sure which—in consequence of that advice I came up to London with him and saw Mr. Todd—it was somewhere in Newgate-street—I generally live at Bath—I know very little about London—I never was here
but three times in my life—it was arranged, in the prisoner's presence, that I should send 20l. to Mr. Todd to carry on the action—after that I returned to Bath with the prisoner—I was to advance the 20l. to Mr. Todd—the prisoner heard me say that—he was in the room at the same time—after my return to Bath, I asked the prisoner for Mr. Todd's proper direction, and he gave me "William Todd, 95, Newgate-street," and I put it in my pocket-book, and I have it now (producing it)—it was made at the time—I asked him for the proper address to which I was to send the money, and I entered this at the time from what the prisoner told me—I told him I was going to send it through the West of England Bank, where I cash, to Glyn and Company in London—the address he gave me was "William Tood, 95, Newgate-street, London, E.C."—after that conversation with the prisoner I sent to 95, Newgate-street—the cheque was sent through the bank, not by me—I sent a letter to 95, Newgate-street—I was to send the 20l. through the West of England Bank—I sent the money to Glyn's to the credit of Mr. Todd—I also sent a letter of advice to Mr. Todd's, directed, to 95, Newgate-street—I went to the West of England Bank and told them to send 20l. out of my cash to Glyn and Co., to the credit of Mr. Todd—(some letters were here produced by Mr. Oke from the Mansion House)—this is a letter dated, "Bath, March 15th, 1861"—that is not my letter—it was not written by me or with my authority—I know nothing about it, and never heard of it till I saw it produced at the police-office—I saw it once before in Mr. Todd's hands, at his office, while this matter was pending—that was the only time—it was produced at the police-court in defence of the prisoner, by the prisoner—Mr. Todd was acting as the prisoner's attorney—(Read: "March 15th, 1861. Mr. Ford, Sir, if you will call on Messrs. Glyn and Co., bankers, in Lombard-street, in the City of London, you will be paid the sum of 20l. which I have paid into the South Wales Bank here in Bath, W. W. Glass").
COURT. Q. You say no portion of that is in your handwriting? A. None at all.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Look at the other letter which you have there, dated 17th August? A. I never saw this before—this purports to be signed W. Glass—it is not my handwriting, or written by my authority—I first saw that in Mr. Todd's hands, and I saw it at the Mansion House the second time—it was produced there in defence of the prisoner, produced by the prisoner—(Read: "Received of John Ford five pounds, in part of money due to me from the twenty pounds he received of Messrs. Glyn and Co. bankers, in Lombard-street, London, under my order to William Toode and himself, W. Glass, Bath, August 17th, 1861.")—it is not correct that I received 5l. out of the 20l.—I never authorized the prisoner to take the 20l.—he was in Bath at the time I sent up the money, and subsequently, in August—I should think I should scarcely send money up to London for him to receive it, and pay me a portion of it—I never authorized the prisoner to write that letter to 95, Newgate-street, or to receive the money at Glyn's—I know his handwriting—this," William Tood," on the cheque, is in the prisoner's handwriting, to the best of my belief, and the letter is his writing—I have seen him write I should say twenty times—I see the name of John Ford, on this 10l. Bank of England note—that is in the prisoner's writing.
COURT. Q. Look at these two letters, whose handwriting do you say they are in? A. I do not know whose that is—this receipt is in Fords writing—I do not know whose handwriting the letter of 15th March is.
MR. METCALFR. Q. On 17th March, after you had sent the money did
the prisoner say anything to you about going to London, shortly after you had paid the money into the bank? A. Yes; he came on the Sunday morning, and said that Mr. Tood or Mr. Todd had written to him to be in London on Monday morning to help make up the briefs for the Assizes, in my action—that was the day after I had paid the money in to the bank—a few days after that I saw the prisoner back again in Bath—he said it was all right, Mr. Tood had received the money—he said he had been up to London.
Prisoner. Q. Did not you sign that order at the public-house on Friday, the 15th? A. No; I will swear that—I did not receive 5l. of your wife in part of that money—I received 5l. of what you owed me—you know what you owed it me for.
COURT. Q. You did receive 5l. you say? A. Yes; of his wife.
Prisoner. Q. Was it on 16th July that my wife paid you the money, in the presence of myself and my son? A. It was the end of July—I gave a little bit of a memorandum—it was on a piece of tax paper.
COURT. Q. I thought you said you did not give a receipt? A. Not this—I did receive 5l. from him at the end of July, I think—I received it from his wife—I did not give a receipt for it—I put my name to a bit of paper; not this—I think this is it on the back of this receipt—the 5l. was paid to me for money owing to me for different things, and for putting my name to a loan society for some money—I think this is the piece of paper that I wrote on, which is pasted on this—I say it was pasted on on purpose—I do not know anything about this piece of paper—I did put my name to some paper when the 5l. was paid—it was a little corner bit—like that on the back.
Prisoner. That is the paper he signed; my wife paid him over the 5l., and he signed that in the presence of my son—I do not owe him a shilling—the order was written at the Lion and Lamb public-house, about 7 o'clock one evening.
Q. Did not I write the letter of 15th March for you about this money, and did not you sign it in the bar? A. No, I never did; I swear that.
Q. Did not you write down Mr. Todd's right address in his own office? A. I never had a pen in my hand there.
Q. Did you make a memorandum in your pocket-book of "Mr. Todd, 75, Newgate-street"? A. I did not—I put down 95, at my office at Bath—this is the memorandum I made—you did not tell me I sent it wrong, to 95 instead of 74—I did not tell you I had sent to 95, in the name of William Tood—I was not refused by a loan office as a surety for you for 30l. nor did you get a man of the name of Mitchell, because they would not let the money go on my security—I wish they had refused to take my security, for then I should not have had to pay 7l. 10s. last week.
MR. METCALFE. Q. You say you did become surety for him to a loan society? A. Yes; and had to pay 7l. 10s. last week—I never owed him 20l.
Prisoner. Q. Did not I get you 50l. on a bill of sale on the goods of your son? A. That is another thing. Prisoner. The goods belonged to his son before he (the prosecutor) was convicted of felony.
COURT. Q. Have you ever been convicted? A. Yes; for shooting, but I never shot, it was an apprentice of mine—I was convicted of shooting at a man, but there was no powder in the gun, only something I picked up off the floor—my sentence was six months' imprisonment—it is twelve months ago last March that I came out.
Prisoner. Q. Did not you apply to me to get your debts in at Cardiff? A. No, not on any occasion—I did not apply to you to make a conveyance, and date it back before my conviction—I did not get it done in Mr. Bonham's office, and show it to you and say he had an old stamp—I did not show you a newspaper of Walsall County Court, where it was held that a man that had been convicted could not recover—I did not recover 7l. odd of Morgan Edwards—I did not recover any from Mr. Gubbard—I swear that—I had money, but not through you—you got me 50l. on a bill of sale on goods belonging to my son, before my conviction—that is all paid off—I don't know where you obtained it.
Q. Are you not making a claim on the British Nation Insurance office, upon the policy of William Henry Fisher? A. That is another question—I have got the money.
Prisoner. He got me to make a conveyance from Fisher to himself, of a life policy for 500l., and he never gave me a farthing—Fisher would not sign it, be only put "William Henry"—he would not sign any more—Mr. Glass made a claim on the office, and he says he has got the money—the Fisher family have set up a claim, and I should not have been here if he did not think I had disclosed to them that he never had a proper assignment at all. Witness. You never did anything in it—I did not put in the name of Fisher to enable me to recover—you did not draw up the assignment for me—I did not employ you to do it—you have been guilty of it all your lifetime—I did not employ you to do anything of the sort—you drawed me down to the Cardiff Assizes, and I had no business there—I did not tell you to advance Merry half a sovereign and his fare—you have not done other services for me—I have not employed you to pledge my tools.
JAMES MITCHELL . I am a cashier at Glyn's—on 19th March I paid 20l. to the person who produced this cheque, a 10l. note, and 10l. in cash—the number of the 10l. note was 76,550, dated 22d October, 1860.
RICHARD ADYE BAILY . I am a clerk in the accountant's office in the Bank of England—I produce this 10l. note cancelled—it was paid in on 4th April last, through Barclay's the bankers—I find the name of John Ford endorsed on it—it was in that state when it was paid in.
ROBERT HERMAN . I am a cashier at the Bath City Bank—I changed this Bank of England note on 1st April—the prisoner produced it to me—at my request he wrote his name on it—I knew him by sight—I am quite sure he is the person—we sent it into Barclay's.
Prisoner. Q. Did I not call twice at your bank? A. Yes—I declined to change it at first on account of its being so torn, but I offered to send it to London for you for advice, and on 6th April you called for the money, and I paid you the amount—I did not write part of this endorsement for you—I did not write Oak-street upon it—there is no Oak-street here—there is the letter O—I might have begun to write it.
JOHN TODD . I am a solicitor, at 75, Newgate-street—Mr. Glass was introduced to me by the prisoner at my office in Newgate-street, on 13th March—I have my call book here—they both came together—I had procured the papers in an action from a Mr. Crosby of Bath or Bristol, I am not sure which, and it was arranged that I was to carry on the action, in lieu of Mr. Crosby—I asked Mr. Glass to remit me 25l., and he agreed to send 20l.—I never received the 20l. nor any part of it, with the exception of 5l. which wax paid to me by the prisoner subsequently, which might or not be part of it—that was paid somewhere about 19th August, 1 think, on Mr. Glass's account—this "William Toode" to this cheque was not signed by me or by
my authority—I saw nothing of this cheque until these proceedings—I think the first time I saw it was when it was produced by Mr. Beard, the attorney for the prosecution.
Q. Did you know until that time that a letter or a cheque had been sent to 95, Newgate-street? A. I knew it from the correspondence that took place between me and the prosecutor, when inquiries were made about the receipt of the money—that was in August—those inquiries originated through my receiving a letter from the prosecutor—I never signed this, or gave the prisoner authority to sign it and receive the money.
Prisoner. Q. Did Mr. Glass call at your office with me on 13th March? A. Yes; he wrote down my name and address in his pocket-book in pencil, not with a pen—the action that has been spoken of, was in the name of his son, Frederick Glass, not in the name of the prosecutor—I did not defend an action of ejectment for him at Cardiff—I entered an appearance to an action of ejectment, and no further proceedings have been had since—Mr. Glass called on me some time in August—I produced to him two documents—you were not there then—these are the two, the letter of 15th March, and the receipt—the body of this, the prosecutor acknowledged at the Mansion House, was in your handwriting—I believe the signature of William Glass to be the prosecutor's signature—I am acquainted with his handwriting by corresponding with him; by letters that I now have, and a comparison of the handwriting—I have corresponded with him, and acted on the correspondence—I am now speaking of the letter—I believe the signature of William Glass, to this receipt for the 5l., to be also the prosecutor's writing—I first showed him this authority, which he denied writing—then A question was put to him whether it was his signature, he said, "Certainly not"—he was then shown the receipt, and he said that was all right.
COURT. Q. Did he examine it before he said that? A. He did so, and read it through—this was in the presence of Mr. Hughes, the chief of the police at Bath, and be immediately said to the prosecutor, "Why, if that is all right, what do you say to this!" calling his attention to the fact that it would be admitting the authority, and then he said. "Oh, no; I never saw the paper before"—he denied the receipt.
Prisoner. Q. Have you any letters in your possession that you received from the prosecutor, to show his handwriting to the jury? A. I have—I have four letters here, all from him—the first is dated August, 6th—that came to me in this envelope, directed to William Toode, Esq. 91, Newgate-street, London—this is the letter which is contained in that envelope, the first of the four: they are pinned together—that letter is in Glass's handwriting, and the address also—one of these letters is directed, J. Toode, Esq.—they became more correct after the correspondence with me in August—the first is William Toode, the second is J. Tood, the third is J. Tood, and after that J. Todd—these are all in the prosecutor's handwriting—I am of course speaking of the letters themselves—that which is on the back are copies of the answers which I sent, in short hand—they are all about this money, the 20l., except the first one—the first says nothing about the 20l.—it is asking me whether I think it would be the best plan to go to Cardiff, and, as I had never received any money, I thought it was a very unreasonable thing to expect me to go, and I never answered the letter—I think it was in the second letter that I communicated to him that I had not received the 20l.—I received a letter from him, dated the 15th, on the 16th, and then I wrote a letter to him, of which I have a copy—it was on 16th August that I first communicated to him that I had not received the 20l.—this is the
letter, without troubling your Lordship with the whole of it; "If you recollect, your engagement in the first instance was to pay 20l. on my taking the business in hand, and if this had been done, as in good faith it ought to have been, your business would have been properly attended to"—that caused an explanation from him, and some further correspondence took place—I have his letter here in answer to that—in that letter he states that he did send the money—(The letters were here put in and read as follows:" Bath, August 6th, 1861, to Mr. William Tood. Sir, I write to know whether or no you think it the best plan for you to come down to Cardiff on Monday the 12th instant, by the train, to see the place and the witnesses on the spot, and hear what they got to say, and put down their report, and I will meet you up at the Queen's Hotel; the packet sails Tuesday morning, half-past 8, and we can all come over together, and then we shall be in Bristol before 11 o'clock. Please send me word back by Mr. Ford. W. Glass. Honery Cotage, Philip Street, Bath." "Bath, August 15th, 1861, Mr. J. Tood. Sir, I am surprised at Ford's conduct; I was sory of not hearing from you, and leaving me in the dark; I was was in bristol Tuesday and cald acording to order at the Rumer they told me you whould be there at 2 o'clock: cald at 2. 4 and 6 but no Mr. Tood; next day went to bristol, cald againe went to the Cardiff Packet and seen Ford; him told me a round about tale, I could make nothing of it; him had plenty of money from me for to serve the supeneys for this asizes, and time enough. Please to send me answer by the return of Poast Will oblidge." "Bath, August 20th, 1861. Mr. J. Ford. Sir, I am surprise to read your letter; the 20l. was sent on the 15th of March last, through the Bank in Bath that I cash with to the Bank in London they cash with for Wm.' Tood Esq., Newgate St No. 95. I wrote to you the same day to go to the Bank for it and have been surprise all along of not hearing from you, but Ford being in London on the 18th March when came back after a long told it was all right and brought the Plea of Rawlinson and others at the suit of Glass by Robert Cunliff there attorney. I wrote to you on July 14th to meet me at Cardiff on 19th of July last, but being told by Ford of your wrong direction Mr. Wm. Tood 95 Newgate St I had a return letter back, there was no such person and now I find your direction is J Tood Esq. 75 Newgate Street. Please send answer by the return of post and wether or no you was in Cardiff last week and they gave offer to settle. Ford told me they had: for Frederick Glass, my son, W. W. Glass. Henery Cotage, Philip Street, Bath." "Bath August 20th. 1861. Mr. J. Todd. Sir, the letter that was posted in March last I put in the post office myself; the Bank was the North Wilts and South Whales Banking Company to Messrs. Glyn, Mills & Co. Lombard Street, Londo, 20l. for W Tood Esq 95 Newgate Street London, the Bath Bank having writing about to the London Bank by the return of post they say the 20l. was taken out on the 19th March in the name of W Tood Esq; the cashire of the Bath is gon to Bristol this to head quarters about it and to compair the writing that I had by me of fords and writing on the check of 20l.: ford told that you and him left Bristol on Monday 12th of this month to go to Cardiff to see the place and the witneses. I thought of going but Ford said to save expence you and him could do it and supene the witneses—when him came back he told me that Mr. Todd said it was to late this asizes there was not time to get breef up; it must remain till march next, and told me a great deal more. Please to send a reply by the return of post: ford came on Sunday the 17th March, stating that him received a letter to be in London to meet you on the Monday morning to help make out the and borrowed 10s. of me to cary him up—W.
W. Glass. Henery Cotage Philip Street Bath. J. Todd Esq 75 New gate Street London. I have attended to the windows.")
Prisoner. Q. Have you got a subpaena among your papers, to subpaena arties to the County Court? A. No, I have not; nothing of the sort—I have a bill of Mr. Morgan Edwards.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Have you a letter of 22d August? A. I have not the original letter, I have a copy of it—I gave some of the letters to a person to copy, and unfortunately he lost them, but he brought me the copies, and I am perfectly willing to put them in.
COURT. Q. Is that a letter from the prosecutor? A. Yes; a copy of it (The copy was read as follows: "August 22d, 1861. To Mr. J. Todd "Sir, Ford never had any athoraty from me; it dos seem likely after sending the 20l. to you through the bank, what would the bank think of me; he never had any signature from me; I never had 5l. from him on the bank account; it was owing—the 5l. that you had from he, I know nothing about W. W. Glass; Henery Cotage, Philip-street, Bath. J. Todd, Esq., 75, Newgate-street, London, E. C.")—It was subsequent to that correspondence that the documents were produced to the prosecutor, when he called on me—I can tell you the date from my call-book (referring); it was on 30th August.
Prisoner. Q. Have you a bill of Morgan Edwards? A. I have—I believe that to be the prosecutor's writing.
Prisoner. That is one of the bills that I was to collect—the prosecutor has sworn that he never gave me any authority to do it, and I have here a list of the parties that I was to subpaena, to show that the prosecutor employed me for that purpose, and gave me the money to subpaena the witnesses, and other things, and this money was to be so applied—these are the names of the parties I was to subpaena (handing in a paper)—he states in his letter that he has given Ford plenty of mousy to subpaena them. Witness. This is a list of persons, whether they were to be witnesses or not I do not know—I produce it for the purpose of comparison of the handwriting of the prosecutor—they are in his handwriting—I do not know what they were intended for—this was sent up by the prisoner's wife from Bath to me, and when I came to look at it I saw that it was in the prosecutor's handwriting, and from this document, with the others, I give my opinion about these signatures—I believe them to be in the prosecutor's handwriting—I have not got any subpaena here, which has been sent up to me.
MR. METCALFE. Q. You say you produced to the prosecutor the letter and the receipt? A. I did—I got them from the prisoner—he wrote for them—I can tell by my copies of my letters when I did get them—it was after the charge of forgery was made, and after the Bath police had been communicated with and were in search of the prisoner—the prisoner then wrote down to Bath for these documents, and they were sent up—I am not quite certain whether they came to my office directed to him, and he opened them there, or not—these are the envelopes I received from the prosecutor, and there are others—here is one from Mr. Hughes, and another from a subordinate in his office, and there is another, I think, from Hughe s—there are three from the police-office at Bath—I do not recollectwhether the prisoner gave me the documents, or whether he gave them to me after opening an envelope in which they were contained, directed to my office, but I rather think the latter was the case—it was after the charge of forgery was made; it was that which caused the documents to be sent for—I have
only known the prisoner since March, 1860—he has not brought me a great deal of business; he has brought me two matters, this and another, in which an appearance was entered—I knew nothing of the prosecutor till the prisoner introduced me to him—he has not brought other persons to my office—he was not acting as my agent down there—there are plenty of attorneys at Bath—it appears that he was acquainted with a man of the name of Holly, who laid claim to some property, and had been a client for twenty-five years, or more, of Mr. Hawkes, of Frome, to whom I was agent Mr. Hawkes died some months ago, and I having been so long agent to him, Holly came to me, he being also acquainted with the prisoner; that was the origin of it—I have not been acting as attorney for the prisoner in this matter—I went to the Mansion House and I cross-examined the witnesses there, because he had no means to procure any assistance—I learnt from him that the receipt was given in the presence of his son—I have not taken steps to subpoena his son—I have is here—I took steps to produce him at the police-court, at the prisoner's request—he was not there—it appears he did not get my letter in time—I do not know whether Mr. Hughes is here, I have not seen him—I have not taken steps to get him here—I believe he was not at the Mansion House; not on the occasion that I was there, to my knowledge—I was not asked, at the Mansion House, whether the prosecutor had admitted the signature of the receipt, and that I believed it to be his—I was not attorney for the prisoner there—I merely acted on his behalf on that occasion, purely out of benevolence—I admit that I cross-examined the witnesses, but it was entirely from a benevolent motive—I thought there was no occasion to tender my evidence, because I knew there would be a committal—I was examined on the part of the prosecution, and was asked the questions that I have been asked here to-day; whether I knew anything about the cheque, and I answered it as I have answered it to-day; further than that I did not go—I produced the letter and the receipt in the course of the examination—I told the Lord Mayor that it was a question as to the handwriting, and that if the prisoner had not committed forgery, the prosecutor must have committed perjury; I think that was about as strong as I could put it—I did not give evidence that I believed it to be the prosecutor's handwriting; I put it as an advocate and I did not interfere further, because I knew that he must be committed on the oath of the prosecutor—I did not tell the Lord Mayor that I heard the prosecutor admit the signature to the receipt—that took place in the presence of Mr. Hughes—I did not take steps to have him brought here, it was the prosecutor's place to do that—Mr. Hughes was there on the first examination when I was not; so I have heard—I do not know—I got it from a newspaper report, in which it was stated that they would not allow the expenses of their coming up from Bath—I knew the Lord Mayor would not try the case—I knew it would be tried here—I did not consider it my place to take steps to get Mr. Hughes here; I am not the prisoner's attorney—I am perfectly impartial, as I told Mr. Mulleus and Mr. Beard also—I did not threaten the prosecutor, and advise him not to take proceedings against the prisoner—I will swear that (looking at a letter)—I hinted that he could take civil proceedings—I advised him not to take criminal proceedings—I knew at that time that the charge of forgery had been made, and that the Bath police were in search of him—if you will allow that letter to be read, it contains my reasons.
Q. The prosecutor had long before that told you that the documents were not his? A. He had denied the one and admitted the other: and then he
retracted as to the letter; that was the state of things—he had previously stated by letter that the prisoner had no authority from him—all those letters were anterior to the production of the two documents—I did not authorize the prisoner to sign the name of William Tood—I think it is the prisoner's handwriting—he had no authority whatever from me to do so—I saw the prosecutor write his name and address in pencil in his pocket-book while he was with me—I cannot identify the pocket-book—the one he had contained a vast number more leaves than this (produced)—I cannot possibly explain how it was, if he did write my address, that these letters were directed to No. 91 and 95—91 would be as likely to find me as 95, and the inference is, that if one came the other would—I do not venture to make a speculation as to whether the letter was sent or not—I do not say that the cheque was an imaginary thing altogether—I think it is possible it might have been returned to the prosecutor if you ask me; and I will tell you why, because in one of his letters he states that one of his letters, directed to William Tood, 95, was returned to him from the post-office—if that was so, I should think it very likely that the other had been returned; and in one of my letters I believe I put a question to him about that.
Q. Perhaps you think it very likely that a man at Bath would send up money, and the very day he sent it up, or a day or two alter, would authorize a person to go up and receive it, and pay back a portion to him? A. No; I do not think it at all likely; but if you ask me what has passed between these parties, I will tell you what I do think likely about it—I understood afterwards that the prosecutor's son was a lunatic—I did not know it in the first instance—the body of the receipt is wholly in the handwriting of the prisoner.
COURT. Q. The signature being, as you think, the protestor's? A. Yes—would your Lordship allow me to see the signature to the original deposition? I only wish to speak to that which is the conviction of my mind (referring to it)—yes; it agrees.
MR. METCALFS. Q. You said something about pasting a piece of paper over that receipt? A. Yes; because it had got torn by accident, and I pasted a piece of waste paper at the back—a little water and a wet sponge would take it off in a moment; it is only gum—it was torn at the left cornet, and would have carried away the word "receipt," and some other words, and for the purpose of preserving it I tore off part of an old letter and pasted it at the back—the body of the receipt is in the prisoner's writing—the signature, I am prepared to swear, is the prosecutor's, even by a comparison with the depositions—I do swear that it is the prosecutor's handwriting—I never saw him write, but I have communicated with him by letter, and have acted upon those letters—that is the conscientious conviction of my mind.
COURT. Q. Did you see what he wrote with pencil in his pocket-book? A. No; he sat by the side—I took no particular notice of it—I saw him pull out a pocket-book with more leaves in it than this, and I saw him write the name.
HENRY BERRY . I am a sergeant of the Bath detective police—I took the prisoner into custody on 23d November last, in Westcot-street, Bath—I told him he was charged with uttering a forged cheque on Glyn and Co., of London—he said, "Glass will have to prove that; I can show that I was authorized to receive the money. I am quite prepared to meet the case now."
MR. MKTCALFE to WILLTAM GLASS. Q. You have heard it stated that in
conversation with Mr. Todd you said the receipt was yours? A. No such thing; I never said the receipt was mine in the presence of Mr. Hughes—if Mr. Hughes was here he could not say so—I never heard it stated until to-day that I had done so—I still persist in saying that the signatures are not mine—I wrote the letters that have been produced—some of them are directed to 91, then to 95, and then to 75—75 was where I found out his name and direction—91 must be a mistake; still he got them—the letter sent advising the money, was returned to me through the post—no, no, not the letter which advised the money—I have the letter which was returned by the post—Mr. Beard, my solicitor, has it somewhere—it came through the dead letter-office—that was the only letter that was returned by the post.
COURT. Q. Did you post the letter yourself advising the sending of the 20l.? A. Yes.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you ever say anything that was intended to induce Mr. Todd to believe that you wrote or signed either of those documents? A. Not at all.
COURT. Q. Look at the documents again, are the signatures like yours at? A. Not the least; that "W" is a more fanny one than mine—the "W. Glass" is unlike mine; it does not resemble mine at all, not the least, no part of it; neither of the signatures—one of these addresses in the pocket book was written since I came to London along with Mr. Hughes; that was some time in August, I should think about the 28th—I don't know exactly—(looking at a paper) this is my handwriting—it is a list of witnesses to be subpoened at the assizes, by the prisoner—this (another paper) is my writing—this was one picked up in my shop—it is a claim against Morgan Edwards, and others—I recovered the amount of that after My conviction—the prisoner was not concerned for me in that—he was not there—he picked this up in my counting-house when I flung it down—I had two or three of these bills, and I dropped it down, and he picked it up—I saw him pick it up, no doubt I did—I allowed him to take it away with him—I had the thing on the books, and it was no good—I can quote t say why he took it away, I did not ask him—(looking at another paper) this is my signature—these letters to Mr. Todd are signed by me—I sign my name in different ways at different times; sometimes I sign "W. W."—I never sign "W. M"—I sign "W" and a small "m" for William—I thought you meant "W. M." in capitals—I do sign "Wm."—sometimes I sign "W. Glass," without the "m"; that is three different ways.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Look at that yellow envelope; is that your envelope which you sent to 95, Newgate-street? A. Yes.
Prisoner. Q. Was I at Cardiff County Court with you in July last? A. Well, you were there, I believe, but I never asked you to come—I did not serve a subpoena upon you in Glove's case—I did not say when you came, "I am glad you have come; I am all of a tremble"—I did not send you to Morgan Edwards two or three times after the money that I had got an execution against his goods for—I did not receive 7l. 4s. of Osmond, and tell you I had not had a shilling—you drew 10s. from him—I gave you an order to do so—you had no business there, nor I either; however, that don't matter—you were not subpoened in the case.
Witness for the Defence.
JOHN FORD (examined by the prisoner). Q. Do you remember seeing Mr. Glass at our house on 16th July last, the afternoon of Friday? A. On 16th August I saw him there—he came in, and my mother gave him 5l. and I saw him
sign the receipt—I saw you draw up the receipt and he sign it—he read the receipt before he signed it—I should know the paper if I was to see it again—this is it (looking at the receipt produced)—I and mother were present when he received the money and signed the receipt—he shook hands with you, and wished you a pleasant journey to London.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. Glass, at my house, make out any bills for me to get in debts for him? A. I have seen him there on business, but I can't say what it was about—I have seen him there, it may be five or six times, sometimes before you were up.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Was this at a public-house? A. No; at a private house—I am quite June of that—I and my mother and father were there alone—there was a little child running about the house, but I can't say that she was in the room—there was no one else there—it was on 16th August; I am sure of that, on Friday evening—I was first asked about this when my father came to London, when I heard the charge made against him—my father asked me about it—he asked if I could recollect seeing Mr. Glass sign the receipt, and I told him yes.
Q. Where was Mr. Glass sitting when you say he signed it? A. Well, he generally stands, with his back to the wall—I can't recollect whether he was sitting or standing when he wrote—I was sitting having my tea—this part if Mr. Glass's writing (pointing to it); father wrote the other—he wrote it before Mr. Glass's eyes when he was there—I don't know any reason why Mr. Glass did not write the other part—I am quite sure that it was not in July that he paid the money—I do not know of any money being paid by my father on 16th July—I did not go to the police-court—I was not asked to go—I was not at home at the time.
Prisoner. Q. You have not seen me since I have been in custody, have you? A. No.
Prisoner's Defence. I cannot say any more than that Mr. Glass signed the document, and I received the money in London to pay witnesses, and to pay Mr. Todd to go to trial; unless I had he would not do it. The prosecutor gave me a list of the witnesses. He gave me the order after I told him he had made a mistake in putting 95, Newgate-street, instead of 75. I paid him 5l. on account of the money in August, as the receipt bears date, only it is dated the 17th, instead of the 16th, by mistake; the 17th was on a Saturday, and it was signed on Friday. I paid Mr. Todd 5l., and—I paid 10s. to a man of the name of Merry as a witness, and 15s. on another occasion, and the rest went towards my debt, for what I did for him, in going about the country. The reason of it all is this: I was to have 40l. for drawing up an assignment for him, upon which he has received 500l. since I have been in prison. The man who deposited it in hits hands signed, in my presence, "William Henry" and would not sign any farther, and his relations have put in a claim for the 500l.; and I should never have been here had it not been that I made known my views of it, that it was signed "William Henry" only, and he wants to get rid of me. I leave it in your hands. I am innocent of the charge that is laid against me; if I had been guilty I should not have gone twice to the bank about the 10l. note; but I told the clerk I would pay the expense of their sending the note up to the Bank of England. They charged 1s. 7d. for making the inquiry. I must have been well aware that the note had my name and address on it, and would be evidence against me if I committed myself in any way. He was going to pay me in sovereigns, and I asked him to give me a 10l. note. Had it not been for the 500l. that this man got through my instrumentslity, I should not have been
here, only he thought I should turn round and assist the widow; but he never gave me a shilling for it.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
GUILTY .— Seven Years Penal Servitude.
MR. MCDONNELL conducted the Prosecution.
MABTHA VON MULLER . I am a widow, and reside at 2, Euston-square—on the afternoon of 9th November last I was in that neighbourhood—I had a porte-monnaie with me, which contained between 9s. and 10s. worth of loose silver, 3s. or 4s. worth of postage stamps, some envelopes, and a cheque for 8l. 6s. 8d.—this is the cheque (produced)—the porte-monnaie was in my hand—I had a small tradesman's book at the same time, and I felt them both wrenched from me, but I clasped them tighter, and was turning round to see who it was, when my hand was knocked, which opened my hand, and my purse and the book were taken from me—it was a boy who knocked it out of my hand—I cannot identify any one present as being that person—I followed him—he ran away directly, through Euston-grove, past the hotels, into Drummond-street—I gave information to a policeman directly I saw one.
COURT. Q. You only saw the boy run away? A. No; another boy stopped me, and tried to detain me by asking me what was the matter.
MATTHEW HAMILTON . I live at 17, Polygon, Clarendon-square, and am a gasfitter—on the afternoon of 9th November last, I was standing in front of the terminus of the railway at Euston-square, and saw the male prisoner running with a piece of paper in his hand, which I thought looked like a 5l. note—I am quite sure he is the person—Mrs. Von Muller came up shortly afterwards, and complained that she had been robbed.
Flicker. Q. What time was this committed? A. little after 4 in the afternoon—I did not come and give evidence against you before, because I was not summoned to come up; if I had been, I should have come—you were not looking at the cheque; you were carrying it in your hand.
Flicker. The policeman has got him for a fake witness against me, or why did he not come up before? I am innocent of the case, and I can prove that I was somewhere else.
Witness. I had never seen the prisoner before that day, but I know his face, and am quite sure of him—I was up before the Magistrate when he was committed, and I identified him there.
JAMES WARNER . I am barman to Mr. Arkrill, at the Golden Compasses, Fitzroy-street, Euston-road—on the evening of 9th November last, the female prisoner came and asked my master for change, for a cheque for 8l. 6s. 8d.—I was by the side of him at the time—she said, "Will you change this cheque for Mr. Carter?"—Mr. Arkrill called me on one side, and sent me across to Mr. Carter; he is a doctor immediately opposite—I went, and came back very soon—in consequence of what Mr. Carter said, Mr. Arkrill changed it—the girl had been over to Mr. Carter first—on my return my master gave her change for the cheque, on account of what Mr. Carter said, and she left—two or three days afterwards, on the Monday morning, it ✗at the bank when Mr. Arkrill presented it; and in the evening
I went, in company with some police-officer, to the Queen's theatre, and pointed the female prisoner out to the officer—she was sitting with the male prisoner and two others, male and female—they were together, sitting side by side—we saw them together afterwards, before they were taken in custody—I gave her in custody to Merrick, the policeman.
CHARLIES MERRICK (Policeman, S 328). On 13th November, between 8 and 9 o'clock in the evening, from information given to me, I went, in company with the last witness, to the Queen's theatre—I there saw the two prisoners; they were sitting together in the gallery—I told the female that she was charged with changing a cheque at Mr. Arkrill's, which had been stolen from a lady—she said, "I do not know what you mean; I have not seen any cheque"—I told her she must come with me to the station—on the way she told me she would say all about it—she said she met with a gentleman in Upper Fitzroy-street, Fitzroy-square, who gave her the cheque to get cashed, and he would give her half a sovereign—she took it to Mr. Arkrill's, and got change, and he only gave her 5s. for her trouble—she did not know him—he was a stranger—on the next afternoon, from information I received from Hamilton, I stopped at the police-court, and about half-past 3 o'clock the male prisoner came there—I saw him outside the court, went up to him, and asked what he was doing there—he said he had come to see Charlotte—I told him I should apprehend him for being concerned with another in stealing a porte-monnaie; that I had got a description of him, and he must go with me to the station—he said, "I will go with you, but I will see Charlotte first," and as I was laying hold of him by the coat he knocked my arm up, and stooped down and ran away as fast as he could—I followed him for about three-quarters of a mile—he was stopped by a gentleman, and I laid hold of him—he said, "All right; I will go with you now, but there is another one in it; if I had had ten yards more start of you, you would not have caught me.
RICHARD CARTER . I am a surgeon, of 7, Upper Fitzroy-street, Euston-road—this cheque was brought to my surgery on 9th November, by a young woman bearing a resemblance to the female prisoner, but I cannot be positive it was her—I did not give her the cheque with a request that she should get it changed for me—she said she came from a patient of mine, of the name of Simmonds, a laundress, and would I oblige her with change for the cheque—I said I had not change, but probably she would get it at the baker's opposite—I never advised her to go to Mr. Arkrill, or mentioned his name—some time afterwards the witness Warner came to me with the cheque, and asked if I knew it—I said no, I did not know the cheque, but the person the girl said she came from I did know, and she was a respectable woman.
Flicker's Defence. I can prove that I was at home at the time of the robbery, working with my father at his business. I went to the Queen's theatre along with this girl, and as I was seen in her company I went down to ask her what she was locked up for. She would not tell me, Next day I went to see if I could hear her trial, and the policeman took me.
Beltz's Defence. I an not guilty of knowing the note was stolen; I am only guilty of changing it. A gentleman, who was looking at the Lord Mayor's show, asked me to change it. I did not know there was any harm in it. I gave the gentleman the money, and he gave me 5s. I told the constable all about it directly he asked me. When I was remanded this young man came to see me. I know no more of him than that I work for
his mother, and a few friends came down to see me as well as him. The following week no witness was there; when we came up the second time the policeman said, "I will put you away if I can," and the third week he brings up this old man to swear he saw this young man running with a note in his hand. It is very strange and unlikely that a thief would stop to pick a note out from a lot of money; and if he ran past him quickly it is not likely he should see him so distinctly as to know him again in a different dress at the end of three weeks. My mother can prove that I was indoors all the Saturday till half-past 7 in the evening.
Cross-examined by MR. MCDONNELL. Q. Were you at home the whole afternoon of Saturday, the 9th November? A. Yes; and my daughter was in the same room with me, at needle work—I was working about and cleaning up—I know she did not go out before 7—there was no clock in the room, but I knew the time.
JURY. Q. What has been her character? A. I have had no fault to find with her—she has borne a good character, but I suppose every one has some fault—she has always earned her own living in an honest way.
SUSAN FLICKER . The male prisoner is my son—he was at home at work along with his father at the time the robbery was committed—it was the evening of the 9th—I saw it in the newspaper the next day, and the girl's name—my son was at home all day with me and his father till after we had done our work; 9 o'clock—he was working at tailoring work—he was not out of the house at all.
Cross-examined. Q. How does he gain his livelihood? A. He has learnt the tailoring trade, and he was so employed on the 9th with his father, at 50, High-street, Bloomsbury, where we reside—he was at home the whole of that day, and so was I—he went out in the evening between 9 and 10, I think; not before that—I saw this account in the paper, with the young girl's name, and I looked about to the 9th, when my son was taken up, and called to mind that—he was at home at the time—he was employed sewing up trousers—his father is not here; he has very bad health—he is able to come, but he is not here—I cannot remember now what it was that took my son out that evening, but he generally goes out of an evening—I know it was between 9 and 10 that he went out, by our supper-time—we generally leave off work about 9—he had his supper before he went out—I swear that from the morning, until between 9 and 10 at night, he did not go out—none of my neighbours were there during the evening—her brother was there—he is not here—he has been learning the tailoring off and on for these two years.
COURT. Q. You say you saw in the newspaper an account of the robbery? A. Yes; and I have known this girl a long time, and never knew any harm of her—she was to and fro my place, and I thought of the name directly—I knew she knew my son, and it struck me directly that my son was not out that evening—he had not been charged at that time—his character has not been so good as I could wish, but still I am in hopes he may be better—he has been very good and steady since he has been from sea, and learning the business; never out late, and never away from home.
MR. MCDONNELL. Q. Don't you know that he has been convicted? A. Yes; I am aware of that; on one or two occcasions.
FLICKER— GUILTY on First Count.
BELTZ— GUILTY on Second Count.— Confined Three Months.
Flicker was further charged with having been before convicted.
JOHN TUCKER (Policeman, E 168). I produce a certificate—(This certified the conviction of Thomas Flicker, on his own confession, at the Westminster Police Court, in March, of larceny.—Confined Six Months)—the prisoner is the person to whom that applies—I was present when he was convicted.
GUILTY.**— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
NEW COURT.—Wednesday, December 18th, 1861.
Before Mr. Recorder.
109. ALFRED THOMPSON (25) , Feloniously being at large without lawful excuse before the expiration of the period of six years' penal servitude, to which he was sentenced in November, 1859; to which he
PLEADED GUILTY .— Six Years' Penal Servitude. (See next case.)
THOMAS POTTER (Policeman, D 2). I produce a certificate of the conviction of Alfred Thompson (Read: "Guildhall Sessions, November, 1859. Alfred Thompson convicted of being found by night with housebreaking implements, having been previously convicted of felony.—Sentence Six Years' Penal Servitude")—I was present at the trial—Thompson is the person (pointing him out)—he was in my custody—he escaped from Portsmouth, and I received information on the same day.
SAMUEL DOBLE . On Saturday, 25th November, I saw the prisoner and Thompson in the Marylebone-road—I was with a constable in plain clothes—I told him something—I told Thompson in the prisoner's presence that I should follow him and take him in custody—they ran away, and I halloed "Stop thief!"—I followed Thompson 100 yards—Carpenter turned round and took Pink by the throat—I caught Thompson, and he caught me violently in the privates two or three times, and said, "You b—r, you shall never take poor Alf. back to do his time"—I succeeded in keeping him—I believe he has some complaint to make against me.
Prisoner. Q. What distance did I run? A. About sixty yards—you did not attempt to stop me—I was in front of you—I followed Thompson, Pink followed me, and you after him—Pink was bleeding at the throat when I came up—you said at the station that you were not aware you were in such bad company.
GEORGE PINK (Policeman, D 85). I was with Potter when he met Thompson and the prisoner—I pursued Thompson, and the prisoner seized me by the throat and kicked me violently—I said to him, "Let me go, it is not you I want"—he said, "No, you b—r, it is poor Alf. you want to send back to do his time"—I tried to get away from him, but could not till my brother constable came up, when the prisoner wrenched himself away from my throat, and flung himself upon Doble, trying to separate him from Thompson, and he did so several times between there and the station.
Prisoner. Q. Did I lay hold of your throat with both hands? A. Yes—you had an old pair of boots under your arm, but you dropped them, and a person standing by gave them to you—I did not take you by the collar and
ask you what you had in your possession, nor did you say that you would not tell me till you knew who I was—the parcel was not undone till you got to the station.
Prisoner's Defence. I am innocent.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.
CHARLES LIWINS . I am assistant to Mr. Attenborough of the Strand—on 14th November, the prisoner and another man came into the shop—the prisoner said he had just arrived from America, and had been in England fourteen days, that the weather had been so extremely unfavourable, he had not been able to get out much; that he had a niece who was going to India, and he wished to make her a present before she left—I introduced a brilliant bird necklet, which he liked very much, but asked to look at a teapot—I brought from the window a beautiful little silver kettle, which he liked very much; his friend admired it also—they said they should not decide that day—the prisoner said that he should be taking a carriage drive, and most likely his niece would call with him—on Saturday, 16th November, about half-past 4, they both called again, and said they had come to decide about the necklet—in the mean time I had procured a few more to show him—he said that he wished to see no other than the one he had seen before—I took it from the window and placed it on the glass case—he took it up and said, "It is the prettiest thing I ever saw in my life"—he showed it to his friend, who nodded—he then said, "I will take it"—I said, "The price is 68l. 10s."—he said, "I am perfectly aware of the price; you have told me once, and I never forget these things; I will take it, and I will pay for it"—he put his hand in his pocket to pay for it—I closed the lid, and was going to pack it—he then said, "By the way, there is the teapot"—I said, "You mean the kettle"—I ordered the porter to go to the window and take it from the window, because I would not leave the necklet—the moment he saw the kettle he said, "That is not the one I saw before, the one I saw before was, a much larger kettle"—I assured him that it was the same, as we had no other so small—he said, "Well, I may be mistaken, I thought it was not the same; could you tell me how much it holds?"—I said, "It is what we should call a three pint kettle"—he said, "Do not you know what it contains; it is necessary I should know what it holds, because I am about to make it a present to a friend of mine, who intends using it for chemical purposes, and it will be perfectly useless unless I know what it contains; if not too much trouble perhaps you will fetch some water and try it"—I hesitated rather, but said to the porter, "Fetch the water, we will fill it—the water was brought, and in the act of pouring it in, the prisoner's friend moved round to his right—the prisoner said, "I thought it was not the size, I must think it over again, we had much better call again"—they both hurriedly went towards the door, and left the shop, which excited my suspicion—I lifted up the necklet case and the necklet was not there—I ran towards the door, turned to a side street, and saw the prisoner running as hard as he could—I shouted "Stop thief!"—he darted into Hungerford-market, turned into a cigar shop, and threw himself into a corner like a ball, so that I had gone in in a hurry I should not have seen him—I had the door closed and accused him immediately of stealing a brilliant bird necklet—he said, "Sir, you are mistaken"—the mob round the door fetched in the police, and I gave him in charge—there were no other customers in the shop, but Mr. and Mrs. Attenborough, and their nephew, passed through—I am perfectly sure the prisoner is the man.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Was not the man in the shop handing him a cigar to smoke? A. He was with his back towards me picking up a piece of wood—I should have taken a light from the counter—the two men were not in the shop more than five minutes, if so long, trying the tea-pot and inspecting it; six minutes at the outside, as the necklet was decided upon at once—I am quite sure the two men were the same as those that came at first—they both came in together as at first—I never spoke to the other one—the prisoner was my customer—the necklet was put on the counter close by me, and the prisoner was close to it; there was only the distance of the counter between us—they were both close together—the prisoner was nearest to the necklet—I kept my eye upon it of course—I was only showing one article—I shut the lid, and was in the act of packing it up when my attention was taken off by the kettle—it was in the opposite window—the porter got it out; he is not here, it did not take him three seconds to get it—some water was fetched, and my eyes were on both the articles—I am quite positive that nobody came in while I had one eye on the tea-pot, and the other on the necklet—I lost sight of them both when they went out—I was, of course, excited at losing such an ornament, but I was quite clear—no necklet was found on the prisoner.
MATTHEW ROBINSON (Policeman, F 166). On Saturday afternoon, 16th November, I went into a shop in Hungerford-market, and the prisoner was given into my charge by the last witness, who charged him with stealing a diamond necklet—I took him to the station, searched him, and found a gold watch and guard, and locket, 7s. 6d., a cigar case, tooth pick, and pocket-handkerchief—he refused to give his place of residence.
He was further charged with having been before convicted at Lambeth Police-court, in June, 1849, by the name of Thomas Brooks; to which he pleaded guilty, upon which the Jury found a verdict of
GUILTY.— Three Years Penal Servitude. There were two other similar indictments against the prisoner.
MR. COQPER conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS EDWARD MOGG . I am examining officer of Customs at Gravesend—on the evening of 16th November, I boarded the steamer Seine from Boulonge to Gravesend at about 5 in the evening—the prisoner was a seaman on board that vessel—it was my duty to examine the passengers' luggage—I examined it in midships, and the prisoner was employed to carry it aft—after I had examined a box, which proves to belong to Miss Sehmits, I gave it to the prisoner to take it aft, where all goods are deposited after undergoing examination—he threw it down, whether wilfully or not I do not know, but I believe so, and several of the articles fell on the deck—I went aft, picked them up, put them carefully in the box, and put the lid on—I remonstrated with the prisoner, and told him if it occurred again I should complain to the captain—five or ten minutes elapsed when I saw the prisoner slowy and deliberately go to the identical box, raise the lid, take several articles and put them in his pocket—I walked aft to him and ordered him to the gangway, then in the presence of Miss Schmits and several other passengers, I ordered him to deliver up the goods he had stolen from the box—he said I have not touched the box since—I said, "I saw you take several things from the box, and if you do not give them up voluntarily, I shall be compelled to take them from you"—he begged my pardon, and said that he trusted 1 would not report him—I again ordered him to take the things out
of his pocket, and he produced two sleeves, and two collars, which Miss Schmitz recognised as her property—on the arrival of the vessel at Freehwharf, I communicated the whole facts to the captain of the vessel.
Prisoner. He has made a very great mistake in saying that he saw me put the things in my pocket, after the box broke, I never went near it; I never had it in my charge, and never saw him put the things in. Witness. When I remonstrated with you, I said, get a piece of cord and lash this up.
LOUISE SCHMITZ . I am single, and live at 168, Albany-street, Regent's-park—on 16th November, I was a passenger on board the Seine, and was present when Mr. Mogg spoke to the prisoner, I was standing at my luggage, and was called to see my things examined—I had a bandbox on board, in which were several sleeves and collars—I heard Mr. Mogg accuse the prisoner, he then asked me whether I identified the articles which were taken from the prisoner's hand—I said, yes; they were two collars and two sleeves which had been in my band-box.
ROBERT PACKMAN . I am a dective officer of the City-police—in conesquence of information, I searched for the prisoner and found him on 11th. December, in George-street, Minories—I told him I was a police-officer, and took him for stealing, on 16th November, from a box on board the vessel Seine, between Boulogne and London, some sleeves and other articles belonging to a lady—the prisoner said, "I picked some things up, but did not steal them."
The Prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read at follows: "I had made rather too free with the bottle and the glass.
COURT to THOMAS EDWARD MOGG. Q. Was the prisoner sober? A. I do not think he was exactly; he was a little under the influence of drink, but nothing to prevent his knowing what he was about—he knew perfectly well, especially after my remonstrating with him.
Prisoner's Defence. I picked the things up on deck, and as soon as the officer asked me for them I gave them to him. If I had known there would have, been any noise about it I should have given myself up long before. The Captain would give me a character, but has been obliged to go away—a gentleman has been here two days to speak on my behalf. I have lost my situation.
GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the Jury.— Confined Three Months.
JANE HELRIGEL . I am eleven years old, and live with my parents in Long-lane, West Smithfield—on Saturday night about, a fortnight ago, I was going on an errand fur my father in King-street, Smithfield—I had 2s. 3d. in my hand, and was going to get some naptha—the prisoner came up and asked me if I was going down there—I said, "Yes"—he said, "There are some thieves down there, they have knocked a little girl down, and stolen half a crown from her," and asked me if I had any money—I said, "Yes"—he asked me to give it to him and he would wrap it up—he would not give it to me till we got to the corner, and then I opened it and there was only threepence in it—I told a policeman, and he walked with me, but the prisoner could not be found—my father sent a gentleman to the station—a gentleman came and fetched me to the station the same night, and I picked the prisoner out from a lot of persons—that was about a week back.
Prisoner's Defence. I think it a very unfair thing that I should have been charged previously on another charge, and this girl was allowed to be in Court all the time; she could hear that the. two charges tallied with one another.
JOSEPH GARNER . I am ten years old, and live with my father at 10, White's-court—on a Saturday at the end of August Mrs. Shaddock, who I work for, sent me out to receive 7s. 3d., which I was to take home to her—I met the prisoner, who told me there were some thieves on London-bridge—that was the way I was going—he took me down Bush-lane, asked me for the money, and said that he would wrap it up; he wrapped it up in paper, and when I got home there was only threepence—last Saturday week he came up to me again on London-bridge, and said that there were two boys coming over the bridge who had knocked down another boy and stolen half a crown—he then said, "Not boys, but men"—I said, "Yes, and you robbed me of 7s"—he ran across the road behind a cart—I told a gentleman, and a policeman took the prisoner in custody.
WILLIAM HOBSON (City-policeman, 522). I was on duty on London-bridge, received information, and took the prisoner—the last witness said, "That man stole 7s. of me some weeks ago"—I said, "Are you sure he is the man?"—he said, "I am, and my brother knows him as well as me"—I said, "Where is your brother?"—he said, "In Vine-street, Bermondsey"—I took the prisoner there, and the brother said, "Yes, that is the mail," before the last witness had communicated anything to him.
Prisonr's Defence. I was going towards Camberwell-gate to see if I could see an apprentice who was working over there, and in getting out of the way of a drunken man, 1 knocked against this boy, who said, "You are the man who robbed me of 7s." I never accosted him or spoke to him at all. I said, "You must be mistaken. I saw a person I knew, on the other side of the road in a cart, so I went across to him, and the boy came to me with a policeman and gave me in charge; the inspector said at the station that most likely there would be another charge against me. The girl said that I had light hair and grey whiskers, and was about thirty-six years of age. On the Monday I was placed between several policemen all much taller than me, and all had hats on, and they picked me out at once. About the time this" boy speaks of, I was confined to my bed with a swelling of my thigh, which is not thoroughly cured yet.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. LAWRENCE conducted the Prosecution.
HENRY SYER BRISTOW . I am a collector, living at 52, Marlborough-road, Peckham—on 9th December, about half-past 7 in the evening, I was in King William-street—I had a watch with me—I was very ill indeed, and was walking with some difficulty by Mr. Deane's shop—I felt for my watch and missed it—I cannot say who took it.
JOHN NUGENT . I am assistant to a grocer of 4, Crown-row, Walworth-road—on the evening of 9th December I was near Mr. Deane's shop in King William-street, going home, and saw the old gentleman, Mr. Bristow, going towards London-bridge—he was very feeble, and was supporting himself
by the sash of Mr. Dane's window—a crowd gathered round him, and the prisoner and another man passed as it were over the bridge, and came back—the man who it not in custody spoke to the old gentleman, who was leaning back—he leaned over him, but I did not hear whatpassed—while he was speaking to the old gentleman, the prisoner was close to his side; he had a cape on—he had his hand raised, and his cape over it—I did not see a watch, but I saw the prisoner's hand move and then he let it down and went away as quick as he could towards Arthur-street—I told a policeman what had occurred, and saw the prisoner go round King William-street; he was going between two wagons in Pudding-lane with his cape on his arm—he looked back, and the policeman caught him by the collar and said something to him—he was taken back to the old gentleman in my presence, who said that he could not say whether he was the man or not.
Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS, Q. flow many people were around the old gentleman? A. I should think there were about forty before the prisoner and the other man came up—they passed through the crowd partly, at that time—they passed the prosecutor, looked at him, and came back again—the prisoner then had a cape on—this lasted about two minutes, and then they walked away together.
COURT. Q. How near was he to the prosecutor when his hand was lifted up? A. Quite close to him, standing on his right side.
COURT to H. S. BRISTOW. Q. In which pocket did you wear your watch, on your right-hand side? A. Yea, in my waistcoat pocket.
THOMAS JOSEPH OKILL . I am office-boy at 44, Lime street on 9th December, about half-past seven in the evening, I was in King William-street, and saw a crowd by Messrs. Deane'a shop—I saw the prisoner there—thought the old man was run over—he was leaning against the wall—and as I was going up my attention was drawn to the prisoner by something glittering in his hand—I saw that it was a watch, and he was trying to get out of the crowd—I kept sight of him, and a policeman came up and took him—I followed to the station.
MORRISS WALSH . (City-policeman, 530). I was on duty in King William-street, near the statue, on 9th December, and saw a crowd opposite Mr. Deane's shop—I received information, went across into Eastcheap and saw the prisoner with a cape on. his arm—he. turned down Padding-lane, and went between two wagons.—I went over, laid hold of him, and told him he was charged with stealing a watch in King William-street, from an old gentleman, and to hand it out to me—he said, "So help me Christ, I did not have it"—I said, "If you have not got it, your companion has"—he said, "Yes"—I took him back, and asked the old gentleman if he had lost his watch—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Did you see this person?"—he said that he had no recollection, he was quite unconscious—he seemed very feeble and nervous—I told the prisoner that Nugent would charge him—he said that he should not go to the station; he would kick my brains out—he struggled violently with me: he put his foot before me and tried to throw me down, I had to force him into the passage of a house till I could get assistance—he said that he was a travelling tailor.
Cross-examined. Q. Had anybody charge of him when you went up to him? A. No. I seized him by the collar, with my fist inside—my knuckles were not running into his throat—I am quite sure he said that his companion had the watch—when I asked him, he said, "Yes"—I will swear he did not say "Oh, yes"
GUILTY .**†— Three Years' Penal Servitude.
SARAH THICKER . I am the wife of Christian Thicket, and am pewopener at the pariah church of Saint George's-in-the-East—the churchwardens are, John Compton and John Corrie—on a Friday in the month of May I was cleaning the church, and missed the cover of the communion table, which I had placed there on the Wednesday—this is it (produced)—I can swear to it.
Prisoner. Q. By what means? A. Because I never saw one made like it—it has a large piece fastened up behind—I have tried it on, and it fits exactly—our's is a larger table than any in London—I hate had the care of the cover for a year and a half—it is made straight, and the corners are rounded at the ends like the cloth which it has to cover—they are usually made straight—the man made this one as he made the red cover, which is unusual, and it has been unpicked in two places.
AMILIA FIFE . I am the wife of Alfred Fife, of 3, Crown-street—the prisoner lodged in our house from 17th May to 8th June, when he left on Saturday without notice and never returned—I pointed out his rooms to Inspector Allison—nobody had occupied them in the mean time.
GEORGE ALLISON (Police-inspector). In consequence of information I received in the beginning of July, I went to Mrs. Fife's—she pointed out certain rooms to me, in which I found this table-cover, thirty-five duplicates, several parts of surplices, a font, and an alms' dish—I afterwards found the prisoner at Maidstone, and told him I took him for robbing St. Ann's, Limehouse, and Saint George's-in-the-East of prayer-books and other things—he said, "I suppose they call it a simple larceny."
Prisoner's Defence. I do not see that the evidence shows that I was near the church. The table-cloth is a difficult thing to swear to, and it is very unsatisfactory to do so.
GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.
There was another indictment against the prisoner.
117. WILLIAM WARD (18), and WILLIAM RIDDINGTON (23) , Stealing 54 lbs. of beef, value 50s., the property of John Edward Bannister and another, in their dwelling-house; and WILLIAM WILLIS (23), and JOHN HUMPHREYS (36), feloniously receiving the same; to which
WARD PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES HAND (City-policeman, 360). I am often employed in plain clothes—I have known Humphreys some years, and I knew Ward before this matter—in consequence of information, I watched Humphreys to Pleydell-street, which turns out of Bouverie-street, Fleet-street—I saw him come out of a house there about 5 o'clock on Monday morning, 2d December; he went down Fleet-street, Ludgate-hill and St Paul's church-yard, into Cheapside, where he joined Willis at the end of King-street—they both went to the end of Iron monger-lane, remained in conversation a few minutes; Willis then left Humphreys, and went down the lane, to the back entrance in Ironmonger-lane, of Mr. Bannister's premises, 2, King-street—he remained two or three minutes, then left, joined Humphreys, and went to King-street, where he took some coffee of a man who stood there, and I left him in St Paul's churchyard—next morning, about 5 o'clock, I saw Willis and Humphreys come out of Pleydell-street, from the direction of Humphre's house; they went to Cheapside, stopped at the corner of Ironmonger-lane, and conversed
for two or three minutes; Willis left Humphreys at the end of the lane, and went to the back entrance of Mr. Bannister's premises; he knocked at the door, it was opened, and almost immediately two hind-quarters of mutton were handed out to him by some one, who I did not see; he put it on his back and walked away with it, joined Humphreys, and they walked up Cheapside together, I crossed over the street, and saw Riddington at a little distance from the door in Ironmonger-lane—he turned into Cheapside, and went on to the right side, carrying two baskets—this is one of them (produced)—they appeared very heavy, and when he got about twenty yards from the top of Cheapside, near St. Paul's, he crossed over to the left side,. to Humphreys and Willis, and gave Humphreys one of the baskets he was carrying—Humphreys then left Willis and Riddington, and went down Pateruoster-row—I followed Riddington and Willis into Fleet-street, and with the assistance of another constable, stopped them and asked them where they were going with that meat; Riddington said, "It belongs to a man named Humphreys, who lives in Pleydell-street"—I said that I knew where they had got the meat, for I saw them take it from Mr. Bannister's premises—I said "I saw you at the door"—he said "Yes, I did; but I have never done so before"—I returned to Mr. Bannister's about 8 o'clock, and saw Ward—I found a silver side of salt beef weighing 27 lbs.—I also took possession of the hind quarters of mutton.
Cross-examined by MR. LAWRENCE. Q. Did Willis tell you that he did not know that the meat was stolen? A. I do not recollect it—he did not say that he had been sent for the meat, and did not know there was anything wrong about it—he did not give me to understand that he did not know that the meat had been improperly taken, nothing to that effect—he said that he had never done so before—he is not in Messrs. Bannister's employment—he is, I believe, a butcher—he said nothing to me about Humphreys sending him; Riddington said that—Willis did not mention Humphreys' name.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Was Humphreys a jobber in Newgatemarket? A. I never knew him in any work for some years.
JOHN EDWARD BANNISTER . I am the junior partner in the firm of Bannister and Son—Ward was in our employment; he slept on the premises—it was his duty to get up early and let the men in—I have seen the meat and identified it—neither of the prisoners were in our employment.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. I believe you know something of butchers, and their course of life. A. Yes; they are compelled to be called up early on certain mornings, for Smithfield-market—meat is brought into the market very early every morning—they do not call one another—the police generally call them.
JOHN MORGAN . I am in the prosecutor's service—I mined a silver side of salted beef, and a pair of hind-quarters of mutton—I saw them afterwards at the police-court—I had seen Humphreys and Ward together recently, before this transaction, near the shop—Humphreys was employed there frequently.
ALFRED GREEN (Policeman). I took Humphreys at his lodging in Pleydell-street—I told him I charged him with being concerned with Mr. Bannister's lad of King-street, Cheapside, and two others in custody, of robbing Mr. Bannister of a quantity of meat on Wednesday morning—I afterwards said, "Yesterday morning, Tuesday morning"—he said, "I was not in Cheapside at all"—he afterwards said to me, "Is Mr. Bannister's man in custody?"—I said, "Yes"—he said, "Has he said anything?"—I said, "I cannot
answer you that question"—I had seen Humphreys and Ward together—I watched, and saw Humphreys give Bannister's boy money on one occasion—I think it was in September—I have been watching Humphreys at intervals for three months.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Whether it was 1d. or 2d. you cannot say? A. I think it was silver—I will not swear that it was not copper.
Riddington's Defence. On Tuesday morning I met Humphreys at the end of Cheapside; he asked me if I wanted a job, and I went with him to Mr. Bannister's door: a young man was at the door; I asked him for two baskets for Mr. Humphreys. He said, "Come in." I went in, the gas was alight; he gave me two baskets. Coming out, at the top of Ironmonger-lane, I saw Willis, and a little further on I saw Humphreys, who said, "Have you got them?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Go on ahead, I will catch you." I went on, turned round, and saw Humphreys and Willis together; Willis had the hind-quarter of a sheep on his back; he said to Humphreys, "Are you tired of them? if you are, give them to me," I went with Willis to Fleet-street; the policeman stopped me; I told him what it was, and who employed me. The young man never gave me anything. I know nothing more about it.
RIDDINGTON— NOT GUILTY .
WILLIS— GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
HUMPHREYS— GUILTY .— Four Year's Penal Servitude.
The prisoner Ward stated that he acted under Humphrey's persuasion.
MR. H. GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM MCNKIL . I live at Erith, and am manager to Messrs. Ralph Charles Price & Co., oil merchants—Talling has been employed there several years, and Avis two or three years—Avis has always been carman—Talling's employment was to draw oil into casks to go out in wagons—from information I received, I went to the wagon on 7th December, about ten minutes past 9 o'clock, it was standing in King Edward-street, just drawn out from our premises—Avis was there—I asked him where he was going—he said, "To Wapping and the wharves"—I asked him if he was going any where else but to the places mentioned on the tickets—he said, "No"—I then asked him for his tickets, which he handed me—after looking at them and seeing that there was no small parcel represented by that, I desired him to get into the van and give me out that drum of oil from under the tarpaulin—it was not labelled or directed—it is worth about 2l.—he said, "Talling gave it to me to dispose of"—I sent for a policeman and gave him in charge—each ticket mentions the place he is to go to, and the name of the wharf in so many tickets—it is sperm oil—I cannot say whether it is mixed, because he had the command of all the cisterns—it is the same kind as we had in the warehouse—we have large quantities of drums about the premises—we have a town foreman and a country foreman—Avis was the country carman to take out goods to country customers, to wharves, railways, and the like—if we are pressed, we may send country goods by the other carman—Talling's duty was to draw off the oil into casks or drums, and to give out both the country and town goods—Thompson, was the foreman for that service—besides orders from Thompson, Talling would have orders from the town foreman, but that would be a separate wagon—
Talling had not authority to give out goods to Avis unless the principal told him—Talling had no authority to give Avis goods to dispose of in town—I do not know of Avis having authority from anybody.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER Q. Do you say that the tarpaulin was on the good's? A. Partially—we have a tarpaulin with our wagons, and use it when the weather is bad—the goods in the wagon were oils; they would not take harm from damp—Avis has been in our employ two or three years—this is sperm oil, the best that can be burnt; the drums are common.
Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. If Thompson had really sent Avis for the oil, I suppose he would have been justified in giving it to Avis? A. Yes; if Avis told him that Thompson sent him for it—it is the carman's business to see that he has a ticket for every place he is going to.
COURT. Q. Supposing Avis had said to Talling, that Thompson had sent him for oil, would he be justified in giving it? A. I should think not; it would be very irregular, for he ought to hive seen his van loaded before he left.
THOMAS JONES ANSELL . I live at Messrs. Price & Co.'s factory, Blackfriars, and am a messenger in their employment—on 7th December, from information I received, I went and searched the van about half-past 8—it was in the yard; I found in it a five gallon drum of oil, at the fore part, rolled up in the tarpaulin—there was no mark, number, or address on it—Avis was the driver, bat he had not started with it—I followed him out of the yard, hailed him, and told him to stay, as Mr. McNeil wished to speak to him—he stayed, and Mr. McNeil went to him.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Before you searched the wagon did you see Talling? A. Yes; at his warehouse door—the wagon was about twenty yards from that place when I first saw it—the end of the tarpaulin was pulled in under the casks, and the drum of oil lay under the end of it—the van was not quite full—the tarpaulin so placed would not preventthe things from falling out.
Cross-examined by MR. GIFPARD. Q. Was there room in the van for the drum behind? A. There was not; but there was in the fore part, without rolling it up in the tarpaulin.
PETER THOMPSON . I live at 10, Princes-street, Stamford-street, Blackfriars, and am foreman in the country department of Messrs. Price's—it is part of my duty to tee the wagons loaded—on the morning of 7th December, I superintended the loading of the goods in the van driven by Avis, from half-past 7 to 8 o'clock—Avis was in the van, receiving the goods as raised by the crane I placed the direction on the various things as they were put in—I did not see any drum of oil—I gave no orders to put one in, nor was one put in in my presence—I know that there were one or two empty drums in Tailing's warehouse—Talling had no right to fill any bottles or drams without personal authority from me—if Avis went to him and said, "Mr. Thompson says I am to have a drum of oil, give me one," that would be irregular; he ought to have come and asked me first—I give delivery tickets to Avis—I have got them with me; but there is no ticket for this drum of oil—I have tickets for every article that he ought to deliver—I put down the weight of the different articles put into the wagon in my rough book, and there is no mention of it at all—Talling was assisting in putting the goods in—I saw the loading of the wagon completed.
Cross-examined by MR. LEWI. Q. Have you never sent men for drums of oil? A. Yes; but not without his previous knowledge that I required such a thing.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. Had Avis authority to dispose of things in town? A. No; and he had no right to receive money without having an invoice.
JOHN BLACK (City-policeman, 427). Avis was given into my custody on Saturday morning, December 7th, about a quarter-past 9—I took him to the station, searched him, and found on him 17s. 5 3/4 d. in money, and two papers—he said twice that Talling put the drum of oil into the wagon, and told him to dispose of it—I went the same morning to the prosecutor's premises, saw Talling, and took him to the station—the sergeant told him the charge and pointed to the drum of oil that was standing there—he said that Avis had come to him and asked for the drum of oil for Mr. Thompson, and that he had given it to him, but did not know anything about it—I searched him, but only found 4 1/2 d. on him.
(Avis received a good character.)— GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the Jury and prosecutor.— Confined Nine Months Each.
119. GEORGE MC'GREGOR (34) , Unlawfully obtaining of Joseph Martin 3 account-books, value 10s. 6d.; also, 19 gross of flower boxes of William Filmer; also, 126 yards of cocoa. matting of Maria Bennett;also, 500 cards and I ream of note paper of Joseph Dee, by false pretenees; to all of which he
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.
ALEXANDER MUIBHEAD . I am in the service of Joseph Hornby Baxendale, and others, of Haydon-square—the prisoner was a carman in their service—he was with his van at the platform where I was loading on 27th November, at the west side of the premises—he took an odd line from there—that means all the lines except the North Western—I checked his load, and took an account of the goods—there was no chest of tea there—I have a copy of the bills that were given to him—I took them in duplicate with a press.
MR. RIBTON. Q. When was it made? A. On the same day, and at the same time I make the original—it is sent to the railway—it is given to the carman to take to Whitechapel—one was given to the prisoner, I belive it has gone to the railway—I do not know who made this copy.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you know, independentlv of this, whether a chest of tea, was put on that load? A. There was no chest of tea after taking the account—I took it up to the shipping office, the boy followed me there—it was the carman's duty to get the hill—I had to check the goods before he drives away—I came down a few minutes afterwards and the van had then gone away from our platform—that was before the bill was ready.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Were you present when the van was loading? A. Yes; I saw everything—there was fifteen articles—there were seven bags of tobacco, two paper parcels, an empty box, and a box of instruments from the Tower—I saw them all put on.
HENRY COLE . I am a porter at Pickford's, and live at 4, Hereford-terrace—it is my duty to pass the goods to Muirhead for the purpose of putting them on the van—I passed them to the prisoner's van on 27th November, to the carman—he did not put in a chest of tea—I do not know whether he went before he got the bill or after—there was no chest of tea when the van came back.
Messrs. Pickford's—on 27th November, about 4 o'clock, I was loading a truck for Huddlesfield—where I was loading was right round, you have to go right round, to get three or four hundred yards—the prisoner came on to my bank, and asked me if I had Birkenhead goods—I said, "Yes"—he said, "I do not mean Birkenhead, I mean Wigton"—I said, "No; that belongs to Old Marsh"—his van was round at the back—he left a minute or two afterwards, and I missed a chest of tea, within two minutes, which I had seen at the time he was on the bank—the number of it was 2,290—it was about a yard or a yard and a half from the place where he was—I saw no one with him—he had no business at all there—I communicated with Mr. Robinson.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you see his van, at the time he came round to you? A. Yes; he was in the habit of coming round to me if he had a note for me—his van was loading about three hundred yards from me the way he had to come round with it—he has come round before when he has had a case for Liverpool, but he had no business there unless he had anything to deliver to me—he had no business there on that occasion—I am always on duty there—he has never come and asked me the same thing before—I have never given him anything to put into his van—I never load vans there—they do not deliver there—they have no business there, unless they bring a case from Liverpool to deliver to me in the course of their duty—I never delivered anything to the vans, nor does anybody from my branch—when he said, "I mean Wigton," I said, "That goes to Jack Marsh"—he did not go to him; he could not without my seeing him—I did not say, "What business have you come here about?"—I did not think there was anything strange about it—he was in his van when he asked me if I had got Birkenhead—I saw him leave the bank and go to the van, and he was in the van when be spoke to me—I did not see him drive off or leave—there was something in the van, I cannot say what—I have been there eight years—he was there as a boy when I went there.
COURT. Q. Did you see him leave your bank? A. I saw him get into his van at my bank, but did not see him leave—he came on to my bank, and while he was there I saw the chest of tea—I missed it two minutes afterwards—when I say I saw him leave my bank, I mean on to the van.
JOHN ROBINSON . I live at 28, Basinghall-street, and am foreman to Messrs. Pickford—about half-past 4 on this day, Metcalfe called my attention to a tea chest, in consequence of which I followed the prisoner's van to our establishment in White Swan-yard, Whitechapel, where he had to take the goods—when I got there I saw a chest of tea covered up in his van, with a sheet over it—I communicated to Mr. Lane that I thought there was something wrong—the other goods were exposed—the chest was marked 2290—the prisoner had his bill with him—Mr. Lane asked him how the chest came there—he first said that he had loaded it at the Liverpool bank, where he had been to look for a delivery-book—I then left him in Mr. Lane's hands, and had no more to do with it—I had seen the van near the Liverpool platform a few minutes previous to the chest of tea being missed—to get by the van to where Metcalfe was loading, he had to go 300 or 400 yards round—the van was close alongside the Liverpool bank, where the chest of tea was missed from—he had no business there whatever—he afterwards, brought back a chest of tea by my direction.
Cross-examined. Q. Did he not say that the tea must have been put there by mistake? A. Yes—he said that he had stopped at the Liverpool bank to look for a book, that he must have pulled the tea in by mistake and
loaded it—I only knew of it being missed, from Metcalfe—I had not seen it there—four or five men work on the Liverpool bank—the men who drive the vans sometimes go round to that bank to unload—they have no business there, but I should never know it—it is much out of their way.
THOMAS LANE . I am clerk at the Swan-yard, Whitechapel—I saw the prisoner there with his load—Mr. Robinson came to me and spoke to me, and the prisoner was asked how he came into possession of the chest of tea—he said that he must have taken it in mistake from the Liverpool bank—he said that he went there to unload part of his goods, because he thought there was something wrong with his load—I asked him what made him think there was something wrong; he became very confused, and denied having said so—he afterwards said that it was to find a delivery-book—the load was then unloaded, and when he got the things out I asked him where the delivery-book was—he said, "Here," and after raking in the straw at the bottom of the van he found it.
Cross-examined. Q. Did he say that he had been looking for the book? A. He said that that was the reason he unloaded part of his goods on the Liverpool bank, to find the book—that was his second explanation—I have known him there five or six years.
WILLIAM DUGGAN . I am the boy who goes with the prisoner's van—I was present when the van was loaded on 27th November—he told me to draw round to the top of Church-street—that was before we got the bill—when I got to the top of Church-street the prisoner would not let me stand, and then I drew down the hill and drew inside the station, and my mate, the prisoner, came to me and asked me where the book was—I told him it was in the bottom of the van—he told me to go and get the bill, and he remained with the van—when I came back, after getting the bill, I did not find the bill where I had placed it—I went up and down, and then went to our place at Whitechapel, and found him inside.
Cross-examined. Q. Then it was you who drove the van to the Liverpool bank? A. No; I could not get so far, because the road was up—I was about thirty yards from it—the police would not let me stand in the Minories, and never will, so I drove to the Liverpool bank—I got the bill and gave it to him—I did not put the book in the bottom of the van, but I had it on the seat and it dropped off—I was not away more than half an hour getting the bill—Alexander Muirhead was about as far from me as the other side of this Court.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Are you speaking of the way you could walk, or the way you could drive the van? A. The way I could drive the van—that is the distance I was from the Liverpool bank—I drove it as near to Metcalfe's bank as from here to the other end of the Court—the road was up, and there was a pair-horse van there—I could not get round till it moved—in order to get up to Whitechapel I had to go opposite Metcalfe's place—it was just as near to go right by him, and to go out into Aldgate; or I could turn back and go the way I came.
JOHN GALE . I am private constable at Messrs. Pickford's, and goods' manager—I told the prisoner he had better go down with me to the station-house—he said that he did not steal the chest of tea,—I said that I did not know anything about it except that it was missed from the island; that is the Liverpool bank—he told me that he unloaded his van there to look for his book—I told him that it was impossible, that he could not do so, because the bank was blocked up with goods—I went and saw the bank directly afterwards—to get to the place that Metcalfe speaks of the prisoner must
have got over the goods, say two chests of tea, one on top of the other, perhaps.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know how long he has been in the service? A. About ten or eleven years.
NOT GUILTY .
121. JOHN SANDERSON (27) , Stealing 1 watch, value 2l. 10s. the property of Robert Fletcher Kedgely, from his person; having been before convicted in the name of Thomas Martin , in September, 1860; to which he
PLEADED GUILTY .**†— Three Years' Penal Servitude.
PLEADED GUILTY .*†— Three Years' Penal Servitude.
THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, December 18th, 1861.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
FRANCES INCS . I live at No. 2, Church-place, with my mother—one day last month, I was in Playhouse-court, in Bouverie-street—the prisoner came up to me and asked me to go and get him a quartern of gin—he told me to go to the public-house at the bottom of the street—that is the Welsh Harp—he gave me a half-crown and a bottle—I went and asked for a quartern of gin—I gave the half-crown, and received some money wrapped in paper, and the bottle—I then came out and stood on the step of the door where I had been before; not the door of the Welsh Harp—in a few minutes the prisoner came up to me and asked me where the gin was—I gave him the bottle—he asked me where the change was, and I gave it to him—he undid the paper, and said, "You have not brought the right change"—he asked me to go back—I did not like to; and he said he would give me a penny—Mr. Eyre then came up and took him.
CHARLES SUTTERBY . I keep the Welsh Harp public-house, in Essex-street, Whitefriars—the last witness came to my house on the evening of 12th November last—she brought a bottle and asked for a quartern of gin, and tendered a half-crown—I saw it was bad—instead of giving her a quartern of gin I put a quartern of water in the bottle; and wrapped a halfpenny in paper and gave her—the right change would have been 2s. 1d.—I told her to take the gin and the change—she then went out—I spoke to a person named Eyre, who was in my parlour at the time, and he went out after the girl.
Prisoner. Q. Did you receive the half-crown from the little girl, or from your daughter? A. I received it from my barmaid in the presence of the little girl—she said, "Here is a bad half-crown that this little girl has brought"—I asked the little girl who had sent her—she said she was playing at the top of the street, and a stranger had asked her to get him a quartern of gin.
WILLIAM EYRE . I am an attorney's clerk—my place of business is at 3, Temple-lane, White friars—on 12th November last I was at the house of the last witness—I saw the little girl—in consequence of some conversation
with the last witness I followed her—I saw a half-crown in the landlord's hand—I heard the little girl say outside that a man had sent her—I followed her to the top of a court, and she sat on the step of a doorway and I waited opposite; and about ten minutes afterwards the prisoner came up, passed the child, and went towards Fleet-street; looked about, and then returned, and went to the little girl—I crossed over and stood behind him, within a yard of him—I heard what he said—he said to the child, "Have you got the gin?"—she said, "Yes, sir," and gave it to him—he put it in his left hand, and said, "Give me the change"—she gave him the change, wrapped in paper—he opened it, found it was a halfpenny, and said, "You have not brought me back the right change; go back and fetch it, I will give you a halfpenny"—the girl did not like to go, and he asked her sister to go—I went up, and said, "You shall go back yourself," and caught hold of him—going along the road I asked him to give me the bottle; he said, "Yes; there it is," and threw it down on the pavement.
PATRICK CAULFIELD (City-policeman, 325). I took the prisoner in custody—I searched him, and found on him a sixpence, and fourpence in copper, good money—I asked him his address—he refused it—I received this half-crown from Mr. Sutterby.
Prisoner's Defence. I was passing up Temple-lane, when the little girl asked me if I had sent her for the gin. I said, "What gin?" and took the bottle out of her hand, when Mr. Eyre came up and took me by the collar.
GUILTY — Confined Nine Months.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM WOODRRSON . I am a shoemaker, at 1, Bond-street, Chelsea—on 1st December, the prisoner was at my shop between 1 and 2 in the afternoon—I had been out, and when I came in he was bargaining with my wife, and was putting on shoes, and I asked him whether those shoes would suit him better; that was a strong pair—he purchased a pair, and tendered four half-crowns and a sixpence—I put the half-crowns in my pocket—there were no others there—he went away then and took the boots with him—sometime afterwards he came back and brought another customer, who, he said, required a better article than he had had; so I showed him a pair of my best boots—the prisoner said he wanted them for his friend—his friend gave me six half-crowns, a shilling, and a sixpence for the pair which he agreed to take, and I stood a pot of beer—I put the half-crowns in my pocket—the two men went out with the boots—in, I should say, a quarter of an hour the prisoner returned again and purchased another pair of boots, which were 10s.—I came down sixpence for those, he being a good customer—he paid four half-crowns, which I put in my pocket—all the half-crowns were then in my pocket—I paid two of them and a shilling away that evening to a Mr. Stephens, who came the next day and gave me one back—I cannot say that I knew that one to be one that I had paid him—in consequence of what took place with him, I looked at the other half-crowns—I had previously given them to my wife, and she put them in a basin by themselves—afterwards the whole of this money was taken out—I cannot. exactly say how many there were taken out, but the whole that were taken on the Sunday were taken out—I gave them up to the policeman, Sutton—I have no doubt about the prisoner being the person who came on the Sunday—I had some doubt about him when I saw him again, because he was sitting down.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did not you tell the police that you thought they had got the wrong man? A. I did—I told them so emphatically—I was not selling up to 2 o'clock—it was between one and 2 that he called—my place was shut up—he got in by knocking at the door—we sell whether our door is closed or not; when we can get a good customer—I got fourteen half-crowns altogether on the three different occasions, from the prisoner and the other man—on the second occasion it was the other man who paid the money—he paid six half-crowns, so that from the prisoner himself I must have got eight on the different occasions—I cannot say how many good half-crowns there were among them—I had also about 10l. odd in the house; 4l. odd was in silver—I cannot say how many half-crowns there were amongst that, because it was all tied up in a little linen bag, which was put in the basin—the basin was kept by my wife—when I received the half-crowns from these men, I put them in my pocket—I put the first four in my pocket, where there was about 3s. 6d. in loose silver, but no half-crowns—I cannot exactly say in what coin the 3s. 6d. was, shillings and sixpences—I am confident I had no half-crown among them—I swear it—when the friend came in, I put those six half-crowns in my pocket, and the four on the third occasion also, in the same pocket—when I had the whole fourteen, I gave them to my wife—I did not give her any directions about them—I left her to put them where she liked—she did not put them into the bag—I did not find that the bag had been opened when I went to it the next time; I am confident of that—I did not find that the string had been interfered with—when I next saw the half-crowns they were on the top of the bag of money, in the basin—it was at half-past 2 that I paid away two half-crowns—I had to pay 3l. 6s., and I paid two of those half-crowns, a shilling, and three sovereigns away—I did not take the sovereigns out of that bag, but out of a leather purse which was also in the basin—there was no silver in that purse—it was after I gave the money to my wife that I paid the 3l. 6s.—there had been about 5l. in the basin, all tied up—there was none loose—I paid the two half-crowns to Mr. Stephens—when I paid them I felt quite confident that they were good—the shutters of my shop were closed on that Sunday—it was not as light as on other days—the prisoner was there I should say about ten minutes on each occasion—he sat down and tried the boots on—I had a little conversation with him, and that makes me more confident that he is the man—I recognise him by his face—I asked him where he came from, and he said, "From Westminster"—one of them had hare skins—I said it was a most extraordinary thing for him to be about with hare skins—I know him, because he said he came from Westminster, and by other things; I know him by his features and height—his conversation is not one way by which I know him, but by his features—I do not know him by his conversation—I looked full in the man's face—I have not found out that he comes from Westminster—I identify him because I took particular notice of his features while I was talking to him—I was looking at his face, not at his feet, while I was talking to him—his face was down, so that I should have seen the top of his head—I said at the station, "I am very much afraid you have taken the wrong man"—I said also to the policeman, I thought the man was bigger and dirtier than the prisoner—the man said to me, "Are you sure he is the man?" and I said, "Well, I think he is bigger and dirtier"
—I said it twice—I had no notion that the half-crowns which I paid away were bad—they were brought back to me on the Monday morning, and I then went to the basin—I did not find the bag tied up and the other half-crowns in it—these half-crowns were left loose in the basin—I am sure there was no money except the half-crowns that I received on the Sunday, in the basin—I examined them.
MR. CRAWFORD. Q. Did any other half-crowns come into your shop on the Sunday? A. No—I was sitting on one side at the station-house, and t he prisoner was on the opposite side, and it being dark I really could not recognise him—he did not afterwards get up—when we were taken before the inspector I knew him in a moment, when he was in the light—that was when he was standing up—I am not a little near-sighted—I bad no doubt about him the moment he was standing up.
COURT. Q. What day was it that you saw him at the station? A. On the Tuesday.
MARY WOODERSON . I am the wife of the last witness—on Sunday, 1st December, I was in the shop and saw the prisoner come in between 1 and 2 o'clock—there was no one but myself and my little grand-daughter in the shop then—he asked if I had got a pair of shoes to suit him—I showed him some—I said I had but one pair of strong boots that I thought would suit him, but they were a customer's pair of boots, and I expected a young man from Marylebone for them—he tried on some of our shoes and found a pair that fitted him at last—I cannot say how long he was before he made a bargain; but a goodish bit—while bargaining with him my husband came in—we agreed on the price, and the prisoner paid my husband four half-crowns and a sixpence, and then went away—he was gone but a very short time when he returned with a friend—I was in the shop then—the prisoner said he had brought a friend who wanted a pair of light boots—a pair was chosen, and he paid six half-crowns, a shilling, and a sixpence—I think the young man that had them, paid—the prisoner was standing by all the time—he went away, and in a very short time returned again alone, and bought another pair for which he paid my husband four half-crowns—I was in the shop at the time—I am certain the prisoner is the man—my husband gave me the money that evening—I held the basin, and he put the money in it—he gave me 1l. 17s.—there was a shilling and two sixpences; the rest was all in half-crowns—there were fourteen half-crowns—this is the basin (produced) that I put the money in—there was nothing else in it at the time I put the money in it, no money—my husband put the silver in this bag (produced) on the Saturday night, and the gold in this purse, and it was put away—the bag was tied up, and the prisoner's money was put in the basin loose—the bag was not in the basin when I put the prisoner's money in loose—the basin was quite empty—I did not afterwards put the bag into the basin; it was put in the drawer—the basin had those half-crowns, and the shilling, and two sixpences—I gave him back that money the next morning, Monday—the money I received from that young man was the same that I gave my husband.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you mean to say you received the money on the Sunday from the young man? A. No; my husband received it—the money was all tied up on the Saturday night when we had done business; the puree containing the gold—we had no loose money in the house, none lying about—what we had on Saturday was put in the bag altogether—the purse containing the gold was put in the bag—the bag containing the purse with the gold, and containing the silver received on Saturday, was put in the drawer
—when I put the silver in the basin there was nothing at all in the basin—it was just after breakfast time on the Monday, when I gave it to my husband; I should say about 9 o'clock in the morning—I know there was some returned to him—I don't know what time that was—I did not take particular notice—it was after I had given him back the half-crowns—it was in the course of the morning—I went to the police-station to identify the prisoner—I did not hear my husband say that he was afraid they had got the wrong man—I was fetched to know if that was the young man—my husband was there before me—I am certain the prisoner is the man—my husband never said to me that he thought it was the wrong man—I think I heard him say something about the man being bigger and dirtier—I can-not remember where he said it—I cannot say whether it was at our own place—I won't swear that it was not at our place, but I am certain that is the young man that came—I could not speak to the other man who came in.
MR. CRAWFORD. Q. You only saw the other man once? A. Yes; I saw this man three times.
JAMES CALEY . I remember seeing the prisoner on 2d December, Monday afternoon—I was out selling fish at a public-house—I went in to have half a pint of beer and the prisoner came in there—he said, "I got a pair of boots that hurt my feet, and I bought the ticket of them from a man of the name of Copley; I wish you would go over and pawn them, because I want to buy a ticket of another man of a pair that will fit"—I pawned them for 6s. at Mr. Sowerby's, in Queen's-road, in the name of Mayhead, and I brought him back the money and the ticket.
Cross-examined. Q. What time of day was this? A. About 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
WILLIAM TRUEMAN . I am assistant to Mr. Sowerby, pawnbroker, of 3, Grosvenor-road—on 2d December last, this pair of boots (produced) was pledged at our place, in the name of William Mayhead, the last witness—I took them in, and lent 6s. on them.
MR. RIBTON. Q. I suppose you sell a great many pairs like those? A. I do—I distinguish these from any others by their not being long worn, and also by their being a pair of bespoke shoes—they were made for a man that came out of London—I have sold hundreds of pairs like that—in that very week I had sold a great many like them, and on the Saturday.
COURT. Q. Then how do you know they are the pair you sold on the Sunday? A. I am confident they are; these are bespoke shoes.
MR. RIBTON. Q. What size do you call them? A. Sixes—I had sold a great many sixes that week, like them in every respect, except the nails here—they are bespoke—I do not put them into sloes unless they are bespoke—I put them into all my bespoke shoes, it is my mark that distinguishes bespoke shoes from the ready-made—I had sold some on the Saturday—I am confident these are the boots.
COURT. Q. Is there any difference between these and the other bespoke shoes? A. No; I know they are my make.
CHARLES SUTTON (Policeman). In consequence of instructions, I looked after the prisoner and took him into custody on Tuesday, 3d December, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon—Caley and Jabber Lewis were present
when I took him—I told the prisoner he was concerned with another in passing nine half-crowns at the shop of Mr. Wooderson, Bond-street, Chelsea, on Sunday the 1st—he said he had not been there—Caley said, "Bill, I pawned a pair of boots for you yesterday afternoon"—the prisoner said, "I bought the ticket of a man named Copley, in the Coach and Horses public-house"—I asked who Copley was—he said he did not know, nor where he lived, he only knew him by sight—he was taken next day, the 4th, before the Magistrate—the prisoner stated on that occasion that be paid for these boots, which were produced at the time, with eight shillings, and one half-crown—he said he had bought them at the shop of Mr. Wooderson—my first deposition was taken on the 4th, the second was on the 9th—he was talking to Wooderson at the time—he said, "I paid you eight shillings and a half-crown at the time"—the Magistrate asked him if he wanted to put any questions to Mr. Wooderson, and he said he did, and then he said, "I paid you eight shillings and a half-crown."
The witness's deposition being read, did not contain any mention of the name of Wooderson.
WILLIAM WOODERSON (re-examined). I was before the magistrate on the 4th—the prisoner told me I had made a mistake; that he gave me 8s. and one half-crown for the boots he had purchased—the boots were there—that was said aloud to the magistrate—I swear that.
GUILTY .*†— Confined Twelve Months.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS MORRELL . I am a chemist, of 1, South-street, New North-road—on 25th November last, between seven and eight o'clock, the prisoner came to my shop and asked for a pennyworth of antibilious pills—she tendered at first a good half-crown, and immediately said, "Oh! wait, I have got some smaller change in my pocket"—she then put down a bad shilling, and instantly took up the half-crown—I took the shilling behind, tried it in the tester, and found it bad—I walked to the front of the counter, told her it was bad, and asked her how she came by it—she said her husband was a hawker and had taken it by mistake—I said I thought hawkers were better judges than that; that I did not believe she had got it that way—I asked her if she had any more in her possession—she said distinctly that she had not—I watched her the whole of the time, and as I was looking out for a policeman I saw her drop another shilling on the cocoa-nut matting—I was going to pick it up, but she was too quick for me—she picked it up herself and declared it was the good half-crown—I sent for a constable and gave her in charge with the shilling—in the prisoner's presence the policeman cautioned me to walk behind her, as she would no doubt drop the other one on the way—as we were crossing from one street to the other, in a soft part of the road, she dropped a bad shilling—I picked it up—I was close behind her then, watching her very closely—I halloed out to the policeman, "I have found a bad shilling; and she said, "Oh! no"—I gave it to the inspector at the station.
Prisoner. Q. Did you not say, "I have had a great many in my shop, and I made a vow that the next one that comes in should suffer?" A. I had reason to believe you had been at my shop before, and had been successful in passing a bad shilling, and that was the reason I gave you in charge.
WILLIAM LEATHER (Policeman, N 168). The prisoner was given in custody by Mr. Morrell—he charged her with uttering a bad shilling, and said, "She has another shilling concealed about her, I saw her drop it on the cocoa-nut matting"—the prisoner said, "No, it was not a shilling that I dropped, it was this good half-crown"—I took her into custody, cautioning Mr. Morrell to keep an eye on her as we were going to the station—she could hear me make that statement—she was searched—a good half-crown and four keys were found on her—these (produced) are the two shillings.
Prisoner. Q. Did not you search me as far as you could in the doctor's shop; did not you turn my shawl up and my cuffs? A. No, certainly not—I received the two shillings.
Prisoner's Defence. I only had the one in my possession, not knowing it was bad—I dropped the half-crown on the mat and picked it up—I had no more about me—that shilling has been picked up now, and I know nothing about it—I have worked for one person eighteen years.
GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and WARTON conducted the Prosecution.
CATHERINE SCHOONER . On 25th November last I was in Jerusalem-court; the prisoner came up and said to me, "I say, little girl, if you will go and get me a pint of six ale, I will give you a penny"—she gave me a half-crown and a jug, and told me to go to Mr. Wright's opposite—that is the Earl of Warwick public-house—I went there and asked for the beer and put down the half-crown—Mr. Wright gave me the ale and I gave him the half-crown—he did not give me the change, but said it was a bad half-crown, and told me to go out at one door and to go to her, and he would go out at the other—I told him that I had been sent by the prisoner—I took the ale to her—she was standing at the top of the court opposite the public-house—I took the ale across to her—Mr. Wright came out, and directly she saw him come out in his shirt sleeves she began to run away—she had not taken the ale.
Prisoner. Q. What do you know me by? A. I know you by your face—Mr. Wright ran after you and caught you by the arm.
SAMUEL WRIGHT . On 21st November the last witness came into my house for a pint of ale, which was threepence, and tendered a bad half-crown—I asked her where she got it—she said she got it from a woman—I gave her the ale—I said, "Where is the woman?"—she said, "She is outside waiting"—I told her to go out at one door, and I went out at the other; she went to the prisoner, and was in the act of giving her the ale, when the prisoner saw me, and ran away—I ran after her and took her in charge—I asked her how she came to send the child in with the bad half-crown—she said she had never seen the child before—I gave her in charge to the first policeman that came up—I gave the half-crown to the policeman.
JOSEPH LACY (Policeman, G 263). I received the prisoner into custody from Mr. Wright—she said she was innocent—he gave me this counterfeit half-crown (produced)—I searched her, and found a shilling and threepence halfpenny in copper, good money.
Prisoner's Defence. I am perfectly innocent. I told no untruth from the beginning; I said I was an unfortunate woman. I told the child I sent her
for no ale at all when she came up; I said, "You have made a mistake." I did not see Mr. Wright until he caught me by the arm.
GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and WARTON conducted the Prosecution.
HENRY NAHRGANG . On Saturday, 16th November, I saw the prisoner at my shop, 47, Sooth Andley-street, a confectioner's—she asked me for two plain buns, which I had not got—she took two Bath buns, which came to fourpence, and gave me a half-crown, which I put in the till—there were no other half-crowns there—I gave her a two shilling piece and twopence in change—a few minutes afterwards my porter came for the beer for the men, and I gave him the half-crown—he gave it me back and said, "I think that is a bad one"—I examined it, and it was bad, so I put it away by itself—on the 7th, I think, of this month, the prisoner came again—I was sitting behind the counter reading the paper—I recognised her immediately she came in—I waited for my young woman to serve her, and the prisoner gave her a half-crown—I said, "Let me see the half-crown," she gave it into my hand—I went round the counter and said, "I must detain you, you passed a bad half-crown to me some little time ago; this is a bad one also"—I sent for a constable, and gave her into custody with the two half-crowns.
COURT. Q. Are you sure she was there on the 17th? A. Yes; I know by reference to a bill which I paid for some coals on that day.
Prisoner. On the 27th I was in his shop, but not on the 17th.
SUSAN STRONG . I am assistant to Mr. Nahrgang, of 47, South Audley-street—on 17th December the prisoner came there for a pot of currant jelly, and paid me with a half-crown—I was in the act of giving change, when my employer took it from me—I gave her into custody.
Prisoner. Q. Did not your master say, I have taken bad money before, and I will make an example of you"? A. I did not hear anything of that.
WILLIAM SEAWARD (Policeman, B 288). I took the prisoner in charge on 7th December, from Mr. Nahrgang, who gave me these two half-crowns (produced)—I searched the prisoner at the station—she had got two good half-Crowns, a penny, and a halfpenny, and the pot of jelly—I asked her for her address, and she refused it.
Prisoner's Defence. I was not in the shop on the 16th. I was there on two other occasions.
GUILTY — Confined Six Months.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
ANN BATH . I am the wife of John Bath, who keeps a chandler's stop at 21, Ecoleston-street, East—on Friday, 29th November, the two prisoners came to my shop, and McManus asked for some tea, sugar, and butter, with which I served her—they came to 4 1/2 d. and she gave me a half-crown—I gave her 2s. 1 1/2 d. in change, and put the half-crown in my pocket—I had no other silver loose in my pocket—they turned away from the counter, and McManus said, "I forgot, I want a half-quartern loaf"—I served her with it, and she offered a shilling—the loaf was 3 3/4 d.—I gave he 8 1/4 d., and put the shilling in the till—there was no other shilling there—it was no one of the shillings that I had given her previously—I gave her the 2s. out of my pocket, and am sure they were good—the two prisoners went away together
—about 10 minutes afterwards I looked at the shilling and found it was bad—in consequence of that I looked at the half-crown, and found it was bad—I put the half-crown and the shilling by themselves in a purse—I gave the prisoners in charge on Saturday night in Grosvenor-road—I gave information, and they were taken by constable A 249—I gave the coins up at the police-court.
McManus. Q. Did you not take a shilling in the morning for a penny-worth of hair oil? A. I served no hair oil that morning.
Caley. Q. Did I ask for any article? A. No—you took no article.
COURT. Q. Did they come in together? A. Yes, and went out together—I did not hear what they said to one another, but I know they were together—I have known them for years as companions—that is the only reason I did not seek them before, because I knew where to find them.
WILLIAM HISCOCK (Policeman, A 249). The last witness gave me a description; in consequence of which I pointed out the prisoners to her—I took them into custody on 30th November last—I told them they were charged with passing a counterfeit half-crown and a shilling to the last witness, who was standing at my side at the time—McManus said she knew nothing about it, she had not passed any bad money—Caley said she was not near the place—I received this half-crown and shilling (produced) from last witness—the prisoners were searched by the last witness—2s. 6d. and 2 1/2 d.; good money, was found on Caley, and a penny and a key on McManus—I asked McManus her address—she gave 29, Jones-road, Pimlico—I went there and saw the mother, who lives there; but the daughter had not been there for a fortnight—Caley lives at the address she gave, Dove-court.
Caley. When I said I had not been there, I meant that I was never there before.
McManus' Defence. I did not know it was bad; It was given to me on the Thursday night; I went away from my mother's on account of having no work to go to—Mrs. Bath put the half-crown between her teeth and tried it when I gave it her.
Caley's Defence. I was coming home from market and my father and I met McManus, who said she was coming my way home if I would wait a moment, she was going to get some tea and sugar; I went in with her While she got them; she then asked for half a quartern loaf, and then I went home; on the Saturday, I was going to get some tea and sugar for my mother and the policeman came and took me. I did not know it was bad.
The prisoner Caley called
MRS. CALEY. Caley had been to Covent-Garden Market with her father on the day she was taken up; I saw her start; I did not go with them; at night I sent her to get some tea and sugar for me, and then she was locked up; she is a very good girl and works very hard; she has brought up her other sisters.
Cross-examined by MR. CRAWFORD. Q. Has your daughter never been in trouble before? A. Not for anything of this sort—she has had fourteen days and seven—she has never been charged with uttering counterfeit coin before—she was punished once for being saucy to the police, or something of that sort—she has never been in this Court before.
COURT to ANN BATH. Q. Which took the change? A. McManus.
CALEY— NOT GUILTY .
MCMANUS— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
MARY KERLER . My son keeps a baker's shop at 5, Old Compton-street, and I attend in the shop—on 9th of this month the prisoner came to my shop and asked for a half-quartern loaf, which came to 3 3/4 d.—I gave it him, and he tendered in payment a 2s. piece—I gave him 1s. 6d. and 2 1/4 d. change—I tried the florin, and it bent—I found it was bad—I said, "Man, coma back; this is bad"—he was not out of the door at the time; he was just going out—I pursued him, and caught him by the shoulder—when I told him it was bad, he said he would give me half a sovereign, and I said, u will not take that, it may be bad likewise"—he then threw down the loaf and said, "Take the loaf," and laid down 2 1/4 d. to give me the change—he did not give me the 1s. 6d.—he then went away—Mr. Taylor heard me calling out, and he came over and asked me what it was, and I told him—my son-in-law, Mr. Barrow, was there also—I gave the bad 2s. piece to Mr. Taylor, and I saw him give it to Mr. Barrow.
Prisoner. Q. Did not you ring the money? A. No; I did not take it up till I had given you the change, and you were going away—I put it in the detector.
WILLIAM TAYLOR . I am a shoemaker, and live in Compton-street, opposite last witness—I heard her call out, and saw her take the prisoner back—I went over, and heard her charge him with giving her bad money—I saw the prisoner offer her a half-sovereign, and she declined taking it, as it might be bad—I went across the road, and gave it to her son-in-law, Mr. Barrow.
GEORGE WILLIAM BARROW . I am the son-in-law of Mrs. Keeler, and am an engraver—on 9th of this month, from information I received from Mr. Taylor, I went after the prisoner—I went up Greek-street without my hat and coat—he was walking very sharp out of the shop when I came up—I did not succeed in catching him—he was brought by a policeman—I received a counterfeit florin from the last witness, which I gave to the constable—I gave the prisoner in charge.
JAMES CROSBY (Policeman, E 160). Mr. Barrow gave the prisoner into my charge, with this florin (produced)—the prisoner said he would go—going down Dudley-street he said I was very flash; I had not got him to rights yet—I searched him in the shop, and in his. trouser's pocket I found 14s. 9d. good money—I made a further search when I got to the station, and under his waistcoat I found this bad shilling (produced)—he said he did not know it was bad, he changed some money at Barnet, and must have got it there.
Primmer. Q. Where did you find me? A. At a public house—the landlord or barman did not say anything to me then—I went back and he said you had changed half-a-sovereign, and said that you owed two parties 5s. each—that was a good half-sovereign.
Prisoner's Defence. I will tell you the truth. I gave that lady the 2s. piece, and she gave me that bad shilling in my change. She looked at my money when I put it down, and I had got twenty yards away from the shop when she called me back. I could have nun away if I liked. I went to the public-house and had two glasses of ale.
COURT to GEORGE BARROW. Q. How long was it after you saw him go out of the shop that the policeman brought him back? A. About five or ten minutes.
GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.
MESSRS CRAWFORD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
ROBERT HEATHER . I am landlord of the Queen's Head public-house, Brook-green—on 7th December last the prisoner came to my house and called for a pint of beer—he offered in payment a shilling—I did not take particular notice of it, and put it in the till—I then thought he drank the beer rather hastily, and went and looked at the shilling again, and found it was bad—I gave him sixpence, and a fourpenny bit in change, and he went away—I followed him, in company with another person named Lapland, and saw him go into Mr. Fase's at Kennington—he came out again, and I went in and spoke to them, and they followed the prisoner again to the Holland Arms—we went in there, and I asked the barmaid, in his presence, whether he had laid anything down—she said, yes, he had; it was a bad sixpence—the prisoner had his thumb on it—it was doubled up on the counter—I did not see what became of it—a constable was then sent for, and he was given into custody—I gkve the shilling that I had received from the prisoner to the constable at the station.
Prisoner. Q. You say I had a pint of porter in your place; how long was I there in the tap-room? A. Not more than two or three minutes—you did not smoke a pipe there—you lit your pipe and went out.
MR. CRAWFORD. Q. Have you any doubt that the shilling you received from the prisoner was the one you gave to the constable? A. No—the prisoner went into Mr. Fase's shop about half-past 3—I spoke to Mr. Fase.
MARY ANN DORCAS KELLY . I keep the post-office and stationer's shop at Mr. Fane's, Edwarde's-terrace, Kennington—I remember a man coming to the shop one Saturday afternoon, between 3 and 4—I don't know whether it was the prisoner—he bought two shillings' worth of postage stamps, and paid me with a shilling and two sixpences—I put the money he gave me in the till—I had other shillings there at the time—the prisoner then left, and I heard some one come in and call out something—a policeman came in that evening and said something to me, and I looked in the till in consequence—I found a bad shilling there, which I gave to him.
COURT. Q. You say that you cannot say the prisoner is the man? A. I believe the man who had the two shillings' worth of stamps of me was pock-marked—he may or may not be the man—I cannot say one way or the other.
CATHERINE JONES . I am barmaid at the Holland Arms—on 7tb of this month the prisoner came to our house and asked for a glass of porter—I served him, and he tendered in payment a bad sixpence—I found it out the very moment, I tried it in my teeth, bent it double, and threw it on the counter again—I told him it was bad—Mr. Heather then came in, and he was given into custody—the prisoner gave me a second sixpence, and I gave him change out of that.
GEORGE ROWE (Policeman, T 301). I took the prisoner into custody at the Holland Arms, about half-past 4, on 7th of this month—Mr. Heather charged him with tendering him a bad shilling—Mr. Heather handed me this shilling (produced)—Miss Jones said that he attempted to pass a bad sixpence there—I afterwards went to Mr. Fase's, and got a shilling from Mitt Kelly—she took it from the till—this is it (produced)—I searched for the sixpence that Miss Jones said had been passed, but could not find it—I found on the prisoner 3s. 10d. in silver, and 4d. in copper, and two shillings' worth of postage stamps—he refused to give his address.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
OLD COURT.—Thursday, December 19th, 1861.
PRESENT—Mr. JUSTICE BLACKBURN; Mr. Ald. PHILLIPS; Mr. Ald. CONDER; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.
MR. BEST conducted the Prosecution.
DANIEL DAVID (Policeman, H 169). On the morning of 28th November last, about half-past 1 o'clock, I was on duty in High-street, Whitechapel—I saw the prisoner at the corner of the street In company with three other persons—I watched them—they had with them this empty basket (produced)—I placed myself in a doorway—whilst there I saw the prisoner in company with another one, the other carrying this basket with a small quantity of straw in it, go up to No. 1, Commercial-street, Whitechapel, or 110, High-street—they went up to the shutters, and they pulled a bar out with their two hands, and the prisoner held it while the other got the shutter down and pushed the shutter back on one side—I then saw them pull out something which appeared to me to be white—I did not hear the window break—I saw these drapery goods pulled out and placed in the basket by the prisoner—I then rushed out from where I was and apprehended the prisoner—he ran away for about twenty yards before I caugnt him—on the way to the, station he said, "For God's sake let me go, for I only had 2s. to come and look out lor the others"—I afterwards examined the shop window, and found it broken, and called up the prosecutor.
RICHARD CBOUOH . I am a draper, of 1, Commercial-street, and 110, High-street, Whitechapel—it is two houses, but the one is connected with the other by an opening, an archway cut in the wall inside—I sleep in the upper part of 110—on the night of 27th November I went to bed about 11 o'clock—I was aroused by the constable between 1 aud 2—I found one of the shutters to the shop, No. 1, Commercial-street, drawn on one side, and a square of plate-glass broken—when I went to bed the shutter and glass was perfectly secure—I missed the articles stated—this (produced) is part of it—it was safe in the window when I went to bed.
Prisoner's Defence. I was coming down Whitechapel-road about 12 o'clock, and met three young chaps, who said they would give me 2s. if I would stand at the corner and look out for them, and I did, and the policeman came and took me.
The prisoner was further charged with having been before convicted at the Police-court, Worthip-striet, in September, 1860, when he was sentenced to Four Months' imprisonment;
to which he pleaded guilty.— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
JOSEPH CALLE . I am a stick manufacturer, and five at 1, Rutland-street, Kingsland-road—I am acquainted with the prosecutor—on Monday evening, 25th November, I went with the prisoner to an eating-house at the West-end, where there was some little altercation between the prisoner and the prosecutor
—next day I went into a beer-shop in the City-road with the prosecutor—the prisoner came in perhaps two or three minutes afterwards, and sat not far from us—words passed between him and Monpion, but I did not notice what they said—Monpion was not very sober—the prisoner did not look tipsy, but I could not say that he was sober—they continued talking a minute or two, and a few minutes afterwards I saw them on the floor; the prisoner had a penknife in his hand—I took it from him, and put it in my pocket—I did not notice whether there was any blood upon it—the men got up, and we went into a public-house opposite, where we remained perhaps half an hour, till 7 or past 7—we had two quarts of drink between four of us—my home is twenty minutes' walk from there—we all four left together—the fourth man came with the prisoner into the first beer shop—the prosecutor got home first; I found him in my place when I got there—he had fallen down on the floor—my wife told me something, and I saw blood on his trousers—they were taken off, and I saw two wounds on his thighs, with a great quantity of blood coming from them—I stopped the blood, and then sent for a doctor, and had the prosecutor conveyed home in a cab—when they were on the ground, I heard the prisoner say in French, "What for did you insult me last night?" and afterwards he struck him—I did not notice what reply the prosecutor made; I do not understand perfectly—three or four minutes after that I saw him on the floor—I gave the knife to the policeman.
Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. Who was the fourth person, Jean Bonnersbach? A. He was called Jean; I do not know his other name—we were all four together—it was before 12 o'clock when I got home and found Monpion bleeding—he was not locked in his own room; he was in my room—he does not lodge in the same house as me—there was not a door broken open after I got home—I do not say that the prosecutor was very drunk at that time, and I do not say that he was sober—it was between 5 and 6 in the afternoon when they were on the floor—I never took notice of what the time was when I went home—I went straight home from the second public-house—I left there with the prosecutor; but he went before me, and when I got home I found him in my place—I do not know the name of the first public-house, where they were on the ground together—they quarreled again at the second public-house; I do not know whether there was any falling down there—they went outside, and I stopped inside—the prosecutor did not get very drunk at the second public-house, and say that he had a 100l. note with him—I did not notice what he said, because he was half tipsy—they made up their quarrel each time, and after they had the last quarrel they parted good friends—the prosecutor did not complain of being stabbed; he said that it was only a kick or a scratch—a person named Balle did not come into the public-house; I saw him along time before at the prosecutor's place—they quarrelled about their business—they did not have a scuffle together—he did not touch him, but he said that he would if he did not go away.
RENE MONPION . (Through an interpreter). I am a wheelwright, and live at Murray-street, New North-road—I work for an employer—I am a Frenchman—I knew the prisoner before this occurred—I was with him in a French house at the West End, and he attacked me with words—on the next day, Tuesday the 26th, I went to a beer-shop in the City-road with the last witness, about half-past 5 or 6, and the prisoner came there with his lodger—I do not know his name—I asked the prisoner why he had insulted me the day before at the West End; he said, "Yesterday, when we had that
tussle I might have hurt you if I liked, but I did not wish it"—I said, "That is true; I took it very cool, the inault yesterday;" he said, "That is very true"—we had a slight quarrel, and then we had a pot in the tap-room—a few minutes afterwards I went to the bar of the beer shop, and then went out to make water—as I came in the prisoner had his back against the bar, and caught hold of me and gave me some blows—I continued to stand, but I threw him to the ground and fell on top of him—I was over him, and directly I got up he got up—nothing more occurred there, but we went to another beer shop opposite and had something to drink altogether—an Englishman there showed me that there was some blood on my trousers—I stayed there a quarter of an hour, twenty minutes, or half an hour, and then went to my home—I did not go anywhere first—from my home I went to Calle'a, to get one of my children who was being taken care of; and Calle came home ten minutes or a quarter of an hour afterwards—I then found myself bleeding, and gave Mrs. Calle half-a-crown to send for some camphor, as I was fainting—my clothes were removed; I was taken to a doctor, and sent home in a cab—I am not well yet, but my wounds are not quite so bad—I never said anything to irritate or provoke the prisoner before the blows were struck.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you live in the same house with Calle? A. No; I went to my own home first—I had a few words about business with a man named Balle, an explanation—it was au explanation and a quarrel; that was before going to the beer-shop, about a quarter past i—I did not then go to the beer-shop; I wrote a letter first, took it to the post, and then walked to the beer-shop—it was then that I had the quarrel with the prisoner when he came in, which was at half-past 5 or 6 o'clock—it was not 12 o'clock when I got to Callers, it was not half-past 8—I do not know how soon after I got there, Call 6 came home, because I lost my senses—I fell on the boards through loss of blood; I was not drunk; they went and fetched the first doctor, and afterwards another—we did not part friends in the public-house where we last drank; we went outside and had a struggle, and the prisoner tried to kick me in the chest, and his wife took him home one way, and I went another—Bonnersbach went above twenty yards with me—I have said besides to-day, and before the Magistrate, that I felt blows; but I did not know that they were with a knife.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. During that evening, had you any quarrel or tussle with any person except the prisoner? A. Yes, with a man named Balle from 4 to half-past 4—that was before 1 went to the public-house—from that time till I discovered the blood I had no tussle with any other human being.
JOHN GRIFFITHS . I am a surgeon—on Wednesday morning, 27th November, about 1 o'clock, I was called to Callers house to see the prosecutor—I found him with four incised wounds; one on his left groin, one on bit left thigh, one on his right thigh, and one on the lower part of the left side of the chest—they might have been produced by a knife like this—that in the groin was about half an inch long; I did not think it judicious to probe it; that on the upper part of the left thigh was three inches long and half an inch deep; that on the right thigh an inch and a half long and half an much deep; that on the chest was about a quarter of an inch long and down to the bone—there was not very considerable haemorrhage—the wounds are comparatively well now he is out of danger—the most dangerous wound was the one in the groin, as it might have entered the abdomen.
Cross-examined. Q. At what time were you sent for? A. Between 12 and 1; I got there about a quarter to I, and I went at once.
COURT. Q. Did you notice anything to indicate how long the wounds had been made? A. Some little time—the blood was thoroughly coagulated; they were not very recent—a person in a passion might receive such wounds without knowing it; but he could not be ignorant of it for an hour or two when his blood cooled, unless he was in a state of insensibility from intoxication—I was not the first medical man who saw him—I was fetched by the police.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did you understand that some other medical man had seen him first? A. I saw a bottle from a man who keeps a surgery, but he had not attended to the case, so I took it in hand.
MR. SLEIGH to JOSEPH CALLE Q. You saw the surgeon who has just been examined; did you send for him or for anybody else? A. I sent my son and went myself; that was directly I came home—I went to Kingsland-road; the gentleman came to my place, and I went with him to fetch the medicine—I did not notice what time it was, perhaps half past 9, and perhaps 10—that gentleman who I brought examined him.
MR. TAYLOR. Q. What time was it when you went home? A. Eight or half-past 8—I was certainly at home an hour before I went for the doctor, because I stopped the blood myself, and then went to Pearson-street and then to Kingsland-road—If I knew how long it was after I got home before Dr. Griffiths came, I would have told you before—I did not take notice of the time.
WILLIAM HOPPER (Policeman, N 358). In consequence of information I went to the prisoner's house, and found him in bed at 12 o'clock on Tuesday night, or half-past—I told him he was charged with wounding a man—he talked to his wife in French I suppose it was—I had to make him understand as well as I could that I should take him to the station—I did so, and then went to our divisional doctor, as I had seen the prosecutor before at a quarter to 12, and seen his wounds all open—I took the doctor in a cab—Call 6 gave me this knife—I showed it to the prisoner, and he said, "Yes, that is the knife; I know it is mine."
The prisoner received a good character.
GUILTY of Unlawfully Wounding.— Confined Four Months.
NEW COURT.—Thursday, December 19th, 1861.
PRESENT—Mr. REOORDER; Mr. Ald. CONDER; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Recorder.
PLEADED GUILTY .**— Six Years' Penal Servitude.
MR. M. J. O'CONNELL conducted the Prosecution.
JOSEPH MICHAEL BEANE . I am manager of Calverly Hotel at Tunbridge Wells—Mr. Churchill is the proprietor, and the prisoner was his clerk—this order (produced) is in the prisoner's writing—if we wanted goods I should give him directions, or write myself—that was the course of business there—the prisoner had no authority from me to write this order—he was
not in our employ at that time; he left on the 18th or 19th of October—(Order read: "Tunbridge Wells, November 30th, 1861. Gentlemen,—Please send me by bearer fourteen yards of good blue glace, at 4s. 9d. Have the goodness to let an invoice come with it Yours respectfully, J. Churchill, pet W. H. Brooks")—there was no person named Brooks in our employ.
COURT. Q. Did Mr. Churchill take any part in the management of the hotel? A. No—he calls occasionally—he is not here.
HENRY HELMORE . I am assistant to Mr. Attenborough, a pawnbroker of Fleet-street—the prisoner pawned this glace at his shop, on 2d December, for 1l. 5s.—this (produced) is the duplicate I gave him—I have got the other part here (produced)—I did not know the prisoner before.
ROBERT ELLIOTT . I am warehouseman to Messrs. White, carpet and general warehousemen at 78, Watling-street—I know Mr. Churchill, the proprietor of the Calverly hotel, in business, not personally—the prisoner came to our place on 2d December, about mid day, and brought this order—on his producing it I supplied him with thirteen yards of silk—I believed the order to be genuine—the memorandum at the bottom is not the prisoner's writing; it was written by our firm afterwards—this is the same sort of silk that I let the prisoner have, and I believe it to be the same.
COURT. Q. That order is to send it down to the Calverly hotel, how came you to give it to him? A. He said he would take it down—I did not know him before.
Prisoner's Defence. I plead guilty to obtaining goods under false pretences, but I most distinctly repudiate the charge of forgery. The name from whom that purports to come; has not been forged, it is an assumed name. I do not attempt to deny that I obtained the silk and pledged it, but I am not guilty of forgery. I left my situation and wandered about London to get something to do: hunger pressed me, and, in a moment of desperation, scarcely knowing what I did, I committed the act for which I stand before you; and even then I swear I did not intend to defraud Messrs. White; I trusted in the hope of obtaining a situation, and should have gone home and received from my friends the money to liquidate that claim, before Mr. Churchill could have known.
GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.
There was another indictment against the prisoner.
MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES CHIVINS . I live at Furnish Pelham, in Hertfordshire—on Tuesday, 3d December, I came to London with my mare and cart, with a load of clover to the Curtain-road, Shoreditch, at a little before 12 o'clock—I there saw the prisoner with another man, and asked him to mind my horse while I went and fetched a paroel—I went into a public-house with the other man—the prisoner said, "Give me the whip"—I gave it to him, and said I should be gone five or six minutes—I returned to the spot in about six minutes and he was gone, and the mare, can, and clover, too—I had not given him any authority to take it away—I ran down the street to look after it—about 7 o'clock in the same evening I saw my brother-in-law, Lewis King, and he showed me the hone, cart, and clover, somewhere in Islington—it was the same that I had lost.
Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. Whereabouts in Islington? A. Against Mr. Wright's, the corn-dealer's, just before you get to the gate—I went into the King's Head public-house in the Kingsland-road, and met my brother there, by accident—he took me to the cart that night—he said he had found the horde and cart, and he took me to where it was—when I met the prisoner and the other man, the other man did not say to me, "You stay here with the cart and I will go and fetch the parcel"—I had only had one half-pint of beer that morning; this was 12 o'clock—I was going to Crab and Williams's with the clover—it was my cart and horse, but not my clover—my brother-in-law was not expecting me; he did not know where I was—the prisoner had not been drinking.
LEWIS KING . I live at Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire—the last witness is my brother-in-law—on Tuesday, 3d December last, about half-past 1 in the afternoon, I was in Tottenham-court-road—I there saw the prisoner with my brother-in-law's horse and cart with another man—I knew by the way the clover was tied, that it came from our place—I thought my brother-in-law was with it, and went up and spoke to the men—the man who was with the prisoner said, "If you have more right to this horse and cart than I have take it," and be threw down the whip and ran away—I have known the prisoner all my life under the name of John Morrell of Whitford—I said, "You stole this horse and cart, and load of clover"—a corn-chandler was looking at it at the time—I think his name was Swindler—the prisoner wanted to run away with the other one, and I said, "No, I shall keep you"—I then took the horse and cart to the station-house, and then led it to Wright's place in Islington—I then went to look for my brother-in-law, and found him in the Kingsland-road.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you know the other man? A. No; I should know him again if I saw him—I have known the prisoner ever since I was a little boy, when be used to drive a cart from Whitford—he does not live down there now—I have heard him say he lives at Somers-town—I do not know whether my brother-in-law knew him; he must have seen him before—when I saw the cart, they were going to sell the load of clover to Mr. Swindler, and I told him not to buy it because it was stolen, and he said, "Stick to that man," and I did—I could not hold both—I took hold of this man's collar, and kept him till I found a policeman.
JAMES CHIVINS (re-examined). I knew the prisoner before—I had seen him a great many times—I have known him ever since I was a little boy as John Morrell, of Whitford—he knew I was going to the Kingsland-road with the clover.
THOMAS ROWE (Policeman, A 337). On Saturday afternoon, 3d December, I was in Tottenham-court-road, and was called to a cart and some clover which was standing in front of Hibberdine's, a corn-chandler's shop—the prisoner was given into my custody about thirty yards from the shop—I told him he was charged with stealing the mare, cart, and load of clover—he said he had not seen it till he saw it in Tottenham-court-road, and then some man who was with it, asked him to go into the corn-chandler's shop to sell it; as he was doing so Lewis King came up and took him, and the other man ran away.
He was further charged with having been before convicted.
THOMAS LEVI (Policeman, V 116). I produce a certificate. (Read: "Central Criminal Court, February, 1853. John Morrelly convicted of stealing I gelding, 2 mares, a set of harness, and a whip, of John Ruff.—Transported for ten years")—I was present at the trial—I gave evidence against him and his brother,
who is now doing seven years—the prisoner is the man who was then convicted—I do not know how long he has been back.
GUILTY.— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
136. JOHN KIRBY (39) , Unlawfully conspiring (with Louis Billaud who did not surrender to his bail), to obtain a situation as butler in the service of Sir John Norton Knatchbull, by a false certificate of character.
MESSRS. GIFFARD and HUGESSFN conducted the Prosecution.
SIR JOHN NORTON KNATCHBULL . I am the prosecutor in this case, and live at 3, Cheeham-place, Belgrade square, and at Masham-hatch, near Ashford—in the beginning of October I inserted an advertisement in the Times for a butler, in conseqnence of which I received this letter (produced)—I know the writing; it is the prisoner's—(This was partially read; it was signed John Kirby, and dated 4th October, 1861. stating the names of several noblemen and gentlemen with whom he had lied, that he had been groom of the chamber to his Grace the Duke of Somerset, at the Admiralty, and referring for his character to Louis Billaud, in his Grace's service there.)—I consequence of that letter I appointed an interview with Kirby in Chesham-place, on 8th October, when I produced the letter which he had written to me, and asked him if he wrote it—he said, "Yes"—I asked him where his last place was—he said, "Groom of the chamber to the Duke of Somerset," that he had left of his own accord, and a person named Louis Billaud, who was house steward, had authority to give him a character—I addressed a letter to Louis Billaud and posted it, and three days afterwards received this answer—(Read: "October 18th, 1861.—I beg to inform Sir Norton Knatchbull, in reply to his letter respecting the character of John Kirby, that he lived in the service of the Duke of Somerset thirteen months and some days. I always found him attentive, sober, and trustworthy; he left by-his own desire. Your obedient servant, Louie Billaud, house steward.")—in consequence of that I wrote the letter and engaged the defendant as my butler—he afterwards returned it to me—(This was dated October 11th, to John Kirby, engaging him as butler at 45l. a yeart and 5l. for beer, arranging as to the repayment of his travelling expenes, and requesting him to come down to the Smeeth station by the 10.30 train, and to write his answer on the other side. On the other side was an acceptance of the above terms, signed u John Kirby")—he entered my service on 18th October, and conducted himself very well for a few days, but on 7th November he was in a state of drunkenness and I was forced to send him out of the house, and in consequence of inquiries I made, I proceeded against him under the statute of George III.—he called Billand as his witness, and in consequence of the evidence that Billaud gave they were both committed for conspiracy—I afterwards received a letter from Billand.
HER GRACE THE DUCHESS OF SOMERSET. I reside at the Admiralty—Billaud was in my service as butler, and in no other capacity at any time—he left on 10th August this year—as butler, he had no authority to engage or dismiss servants, or to give them characters—I have particular reason to know that he was aware of that—I know Billand's writing—I do not think this letter is his' it is very like it, but there is a difference, and I cannot help thinking it is Kirbv's, though I cannot say that it is not Billaud's—if it is Billaud's he had no authority to write it—the prisoner was in my service thirteen months as valet and groom of the chamber—I think he was discharged on 9th May—it was because he would not keep himself sober, and he had been forgiven twice—at the time of his discharge, Billaud was in my service—Kirby wrote me several letters about his drunkenness—this is
one of them—(This was dated June 6th, 1861, from the prisoner, informing His Grace that his drunkenness was caused by his drinking bad spirits when in a state of excitement, caused by distress in his family, begging pardon for his conduct and promising to abandon drink for ever).
COURT. Q. Are you able to say whether or not Kirby knew whether Billaud had authority to give a character? A. I did not trust Billaud with anything; he was a mere butler.
HARIETTE KNOWLES I am housekeeper to the Duke of Somerset, at the Admiralty, and know Kirby and Billaud—they were in the Duke's service some time—Billaud left on 10th August—I have seen Kirby in a state of drunkenness in Billaud's presence—Billaud knew why Kirby was dismissed; We had talk about it many times—Billaud knew that it was for drunkenness.
Prisoner. Q. Have you ever observed any one else intoxicated in the Duke's household? A. It was always looked over—I do not remember that Other servants were discharged for drinking—I do not remember the under butler and the hall butler being discharged, and two gentlemen coming for their characters and seeing Billaud—I recollect George, the under butler, and Robert Coombe, the hall porter—I never heard of a gentleman calling three times to see the under butler at the time George was leaving, not wishing to trouble the Duchess, or that the under butler got a situation through Billaud's recommendation—I do not know that the hall porter got a situation through Billaud—I always understood from the Duchess that the butler had no power.
COURT. Q. Was that perfectly known throughout the household? A. Yes; I have been there some years now.
JOHN MUNDAY . I am coachman to the Hon. Robert Lowe, of 34, Lowndes-square—Kirby was a fellow servant of mine at the latter end of June this year—he left some time in July—he left before August—I do not know what he left for.
HENRY SMITH (Police-sergeant). On 25th November, about half-past 9 in the morning, I saw Billaud in Dartmouth-street, Westminster—he went to 25, Dartmouth-street, knocked at the door, and Kirby opened it—Billaud showed Kirby a letter—they talked together for a few minutes, and Billaud left and went up Dartmouth-street into Birdcage-walk, where he walked about for half an hour, occasionally reading a letter; Kirby joined him there—they continued together, and went to 31, St. Martin-street, Leicester-square—Billaud knocked at the door—they both went in, and remained there for half an hour—they then went to Clark's public-house in Whit worth-street, then to another public-house, where they remained some time, came out, shook hands, and parted—I followed Kirby to the Charing Cross Post-office—he went and got a stamp put on a letter, and posted it—I said to him in Trafalgar-square," Good morning, Kirby"—he said, "Good morning"—I said, "You are looking better"—he said, "Yes; I have been in the country; where do you know me?"—I said, "At the Duke of Somerset's"—I then told him who I was, and that I had a warrant for his apprehension for obtaining a situation, in Sir Thomas Knatchbull's service, by means of a false character—he said, "It was not false, it was given to me by Bilaud"—I asked him when he had seen Billaud—he said that he met him about three weeks ago, in the street—I asked him where Billaud lived—he said that he did not know—I took him to the office in Scotland-yard, and while there he wrote in this book (produced)—I searched him after he was remanded, and it was found upon him—(Read: "Mr. Billaud must state that I did not know he had left the Duke's, and that he had received a letter from Sir Norton
Knatchbull, who wrote for my character about a month ago, and that he called at the Admiralty; let him swear that, and certify to you that it is all right; he lodges at 8, Palace-street; he was authorised to give characters, and I served under him; he can swear to the handwriting").
Prisoner. Q. When I went to Scotland-yard, I asked you when you were going to take me from there? A. Yes; I do not recollect you telling me that you were going on business for your wife; that you had a commission to execute—you asked me whether you could call on your wife, seeing she lived on the way, and I said, "Yes;" but I took you by the next street—you did not write this as an instruction to your wife to find Billaud out.
SOMERS HIGGINS . I am one of the clerks to the Magistrates at Westminster police-court—I was there when Kirby was charged, and took the notes—he called as his witness a person named Billaud—I took notes of what Billaud said—he said, "I lodge at 8, Palace-street, Westminster—I was butler at the Duke of Somerset's—I left on 10th August—I am now out of place—I left for no fault—while I was there, the prisoner was there also—I was there when the prisoner was discharged—I sometimes hired and discharged servants, and sometimes the Dnke—I do not know why the prisoner left—I remained after the prisoner left—I never saw the prisoner drunk—he applied to me six weeks ago for a character"—he was asked a question by the Magistrate, and said, "I met the prisoner in the park; I had left the Duke's—he said he had applied for a situation, and asked me to give him a reference—I asked him to write me a copy of what I should say, and after that day I received from the prisoner a letter addressed to me from Sir John—I had sent the prisoner to the Admiralty for my letter—he gave it me in an envelope and I was to copy it—I put the copy into the post instead of copying it, as I was' busy"—the document was then produced, this is it—" it was not sealed when given to me—I sealed it—I saw nothing but the truth in it—he did not know I had left—I offered myself for the same situation, 1 did not know that the prisoner had applied—I saw the advertisement in the Times"—he was then ordered into custody.
Prisoner's Defence. I beg to explain as far as I can respecting the facts. In the early part of October, I was reading an advertisement in the Times to apply by initials in Bond-street for the situation of a butler; I went home and wrote a letter, and next day took it and asked the shopman if he knew who it was for; he said that he had no instructions to say, but the letter would be sent; in a few days I received a letter from Sir Norton Knatchbull, but did not know who he was, because there was no name; it was to meet a gentleman and lady at Chesham-place on a certain day. In two or three days I went to see them, and saw this gentleman; I presented this letter, he asked me some questions, went up stairs, and afterwards called me up, and I saw a lady, who said, "Oh! you are the tall man who wrote to Sir Norton, you have lived with the Duchess of Somerset as groom of the chamber." I said, "Yes;" she said, "After living in such a distinguished family, would you like to live in a quiet gentleman's family in the country, in a very large house and a great deal of plate, but not much company?" I said that I would live wherever I was comfortable; she said, "Who shall I apply to for your character?" I said, "The Duke, from his official capacity as first Lord of the Admiralty, seldom troubles himself with, characters, and the Duchess I do not wish to trouble, but Mr. Billaud, the steward, knows enough of me to speak of me." I thought, I do not know who you are, and I will not trouble the Duchess until I know what family
I am going into. Sir Norton took me down stairs, took pen and ink, and asked me who he was to write to; I said, "Mr. Billaud, the head steward;" He said, "Is he in town?" I said, "I do not know;" he wrote and gave me the note to put in the post; going home I saw Mr. Billaud and ran over the way to him; he said that he was in a very great hurry indeed. I said, "I want to speak to you. I have been after a situation. I do not think the place will suit me. I have taken the liberty of referring the gentleman to you, but I shall write to the Duke or the Duchess." he said, "I do not know what I can say; I cannot stop now; you write me a letter." I said, "I believe the gentleman is going to write this evening;" he said, "You had better call at the Admiralty, and see if there is any letter, and take it to your house." I went home. My wife advised me not to write the copy, but I did, and left it, saying, "If you see him you can give it to him." He called in the morning, when I was dressed to go out, and said, "Here is a letter from this gentleman." Mr. Billaud took the letter away, and I did not see him afterwards. I went to Woolwich next day, and on my return to town there were two letters; one from Sir Norton, saying that he was satisfied with the character Billaud had sent, and another saying that I had not answered. I wrote to say that I had been out of town, which was the cause of my delay. My friends pressed me not to disappoint the gentleman, as he might be having company, so I went down to see how I liked the situation. All went well for eight days, as Lady Knatchbull was away, but when she came home she led me a life which these walls for ever would be nothing to; a dog's life. I afterwards received an unfortunate letter from my wife, which caused me to take some beer. I got muddled, and Sir Norton discharged me.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
THIRD COURT.—Thursday, December 19th, 1861.
PRESENT. Mr. Ald. SALOMONS, M.P.; Mr. Ald. FINNIS; Mr. Ald. CONDER; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MR. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.
ROBERT SINGLETON . I am watchman to Mr. Arthur McNamara, carrier, of Castle street, Finsbury—I watched the two prisoners on the morning of 28th November—Mackin was in a dark dress—I first saw him about five minutes past 6—he was following two loaded vans of Mr. McNamara's down St Dunstan's-hill, which leads to Billingsgate—he then returned up the hill, and met the third van, which was loaded with herrings—East was driving that van, and I saw him remove himself sideways and shove off the pad—that is a basket of herrings, containing about a hundred or so—Mackin picked it up, and ran alongside of the church, up the steps into Cross-lane—I was following him—he turned round, saw me running after him, and dropped the pad—I picked it up, and lost sight of him—I went to McNamara's office, and gave information to the foreman—Mackin was taken in custody by constable 520, about two hours afterwards—I do not know what Mackin is at the market, but I have been engaged to watch him and others—I am quite certain he is the man I saw that morning.
Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD (for Mackin) Q. How long bate you known him? A. About a couple of months, but I have been watching him about two or three weeks—It was Mr. McNamara's foreman who pointed him out to me first, some days previous—that was not the first time my attention had been drawn to this matter, Mr. Arthur McNamara first drew it—this is the first time of my knowing anything wrong of him—I had known him personally, by seeing him as I might see him now, about a couple of months, passing through the market, going to McNamara's office—I have seen him more than two or three times; several times; say half-a-dosen times—it was a dark morning on 28th November—I do not know what he is, further than seeing him in the dress he is in now—when I first saw him that morning I was standing against the round posts on St. Dunstan's-hill, in company with McNamara's foreman—we both followed him down—I was just across the street, about six or seven yards from him.
East. What he has been saying of me is false.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Are you a liveryman of the City of London? A. No.
CHARLES JECKS . I am traffic manager to Mr. Arthur McNamara—I was with the last witness on the morning of 28th November, and saw Mackin, about five minutes past 6, in Thames-street, at the corner of St. Dunstan's-hill—I did not see him do anything—I saw him pass away, and I went and communicated with Singleton—I recollect East's van driving up—I found one short out of November—I do not know what he fifteen—there ought to have been fifteen pads of herrings in the lot, and there were only fourteen.
Cross-examined. Q. How long have you known Mackin? A. Well; I think, these three or four years—I cannot tell how long it is since the other man knew him—it is about two or three weeks ago that his attention was directed to him by our firm—I do not know whether Mackin is a liveryman—he kept a shop once, and he jobs about the market—I do not know anything about him—I only know him by seeing him about—I do not know that Mackin has worked for Mr. Reid forten years—I cannot say whether he has or not.
COURT. Q. Who is Reid? A. A fish salesman in the market.
East's Defence. I am not guilty. I never turned the herrings off; and did not know they were off.
MR. LLOYD to WILLIAM GALE Q. Do you know anything against the man's character? A. No; except that he is a suspicious character—I have seen him about themarket—I say that, because our attention has been drawn to him this last two or three weeks—I knew nothing against him before that.
MR. LEWIS stated that the depredations for some weeks past, had amounted to 20l. a week; that the day before, a pad of fish, value 30s. was lost from East's van; and that complaints had been made several times, of losses from his vans.
EAST— Three Years' Penal Servitude.
MACKIN— Confined Eighteen Months.
MR. PLATT conducted the Prosecution.
EDMUND PARKER . I live at 2, Denmark-street, Soho; and am a leather ease maker—on morning of 5th December, about 2 o'clock, I was on my way home, going through Broad-street, St. Giles—two men came up to me; the prisoner was one of them—they rushed upon me, and knocked me down—I thin'k I must have received the blow in my chest; I felt pain there afterwards—it was so sudden I believe it was with the fist—it must have been hard; it knocked me down—my hat was lost in the affray—it fell off the instant I was down—there were two pocket handkerchiefs in it—I had about 15s. in my right-hand waistcoat pocket before this happened—when I was on the ground, the prisoner seized me by the throat instantly, and asked me if I had any money; I said, "No"—the other man was feeling about my waistcoat pocket in which I had the money—I struggled, and called "Police!" as well as I was able—the hard pressure on my throat by the prisoner, prevented me from calling out loudly—the handkerchiefs and hat were taken away as well as the 15s.—as soon as the policeman came up, they made off, and ran away in different directions—I was on my back when they ran away—the handkerchiefs were cotton ones; worth about 18d. the two.
Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. I believe on this morning you had been out for a spree, had you not? A. I had not—I had been drinking a little, not so much but what I could recognise the prisoner—I had been to a meeting at my club—I was not sober—I had been at my club the whole of the evening, from about 9 I think—I had not been drinking before I went to my club—I dined at 1 o'clock—I had a pint of weak ale at dinner, nothing else—I had half a pint of ale about 7—that was all I had between dinner and supper—I had supper about 8 or 9 o'clock—that was not at the club—I had not any gin or spirits—I cannot say whether I had any more beer besides that half-pint—I had half a pint of ale to drink for supper, no spirits or wine—it was a benefit club—we amused ourselves with arguments and different alterations of the rules, we smoked then, and moistened our clay—I might have had a pint or a pint and a half at the club, I might have had a little more—I did not notice what I took—I had some spirits, I had no wine; spirits and ale principally—I might have tasted porter—when I was knocked down, my hat fell off, and I did not see it afterwards—I got up directly the policeman came up, and followed in the direction he went, and very soon afterwards I met him with the prisoner in his custody—when I was examined before, I had no doubt that it was the prisoner who was pressing upon my throat—I knew which man it was when I was examined before the Magistrate—I am quite sure of what the prisoner said to me—I am sure he asked me if I had any money—I did not remember that when I was examined before the Magistrate—it did not occur to me—I remember it now—my memory is very bad—it improved afcer I got sober, there is no question about that—the money I had was not far short of 15s.—I last saw my money when I was coming home, after I left the club—I did not take it out of my waistcoat pocket—it is about a quarter of an hour's walk from the club where I met these men—the club is in Rathbone-place—between my leaving the club and seeing these two men, I did not take out my money—I know it was in my pocket—I had no occasion to look at it after leaving the club—I paid for what I had to drink at the club—that might have been about an hour before I left—I did not change any money in paying that—I paid it in silver—I had eighteen shillings in my pocket when I left my home, shortly before 9—I knew what I had spent—I knew I had that money in my pocket, I could feel it—I cannot swear that I put my hand to my pocket—I know the money
was in my pocket when I was at the club—I had eighteen shillings before I went in there—I might have spent three shillings at the club; we put together—I might have paid for half a gallon of ale or more—the whole of the members were there, about eighty—in the first instance, at the station-house, I said that I had lost my hat, and two handkerchiefs, and did not say anything about losing my money, for the moment, till I discovered what I had lost—I mentioned it directly afterwards—when these two persons came up, there was not a woman with them, that I saw—I did not run up against them—I did not run against a woman, and they strike me for it—I was not near enough—I am quite certain I did not—I saw no woman, it was very dark, and raining very fast.
MR. PLATT. Q. When you saw the prisoner coming along in custody of the policeman, did you say to him anything about what you had lost? A. Yes; 1 told him I was knocked down and robbed of 15s., and my hat, and handkerchief—that was immediately after the robbery—I was so terrified that I hardly know what I did say—I don't remember what I said; I paid for what I drank as I had it—I put my hand in my waistcoat pocket when I did that and took a coin out—I had 18s. before I came out.
COURT. Q. The last time you made a payment, did you feel money in your waistcoat pocket? A. Yes; I was alone when I was knocked down.
WILLIAM WHEELER (Policeman, F 18). I was on duty about 3 o'clock, on the morning of the 5th, in Broad-street, and heard a cry of "Police"—I stepped lightly across the road—I stooped down first and saw two men busily engaged in something; the prisoner was one of them—he was holding the prosecutor down—I am sure he is the man—I did not lose sight of him for a second, till I took him into custody—the other man was rifling the prosecutor's pockets—I saw his hand in the right-hand pocket of his waistcoat—I got within four yards of them before they saw me; they then turned and saw me, and ran away—the other man went up George-street, and got away—the prisoner went up High-street—I called out, "Stop thief!" and sprang my rattle—I saw another constable coming towards me from the opposite side of the street, the prisoner was then going up High-street—I kept him in view; he ran into the passage of a house, previous to that he tell, which enabled me to gain upon him within a yard—I got up to him and almost put my hand upon him—when he got into a passage I turned my light on, and saw him trying to force a door open—I took him into custody there—I never lost sight of him for a single moment—on my way back, I saw the prosecutor coming towards me, with both hands upon his throat as if suffering, from pain—I had then got the prisoner with me—the prosecutor instantly recognised the prisoner, and said he had robbed him of a hat, two handkerchiefs, and 15s.—I do not think the prisoner said anything at that time—when I had him in the dock and the charge was read, he said that the prosecutor had struck him first, and that he knocked him down—he also mentioned a woman—I saw no woman there—the prosecutor was drunk; he could stand; he walked with me to the station—we always understand when a man is worse for drink that he is drunk—he could walk alone.
Cross-examined. Q. I suppose when you stepped lightly across the street, you did it in order that they might not hear you? A. Yes; I was not exactly behind' them—I was more on the right—they were close to the kerbstone—I was about six yards from the kerb-stone at the time, in the road, and they were about two yards from it—I was more behind than in front—supposing there was a line drawn across the street, through the men who were struggling, I was about half a yard behind it—I was about four yards
from them—I was not a couple of yards behind the line—they turned round and looked at me and then ran away—I did not turn my bull's-eye on them.
The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows: "The gentleman was in company with another gentleman and a female; he knocked against me and I struck him; they were singing as they came along; we fell down and the gentleman halloed out' Police!' as to robbing him I never did it; if 1 had been quite sober, I should not have taken any notice of it; I was not drunk."
MR. SHARFB to WILLIAM WHEELER. Q. Do you know anything against this man? A. No.
COURT. Q. Do you know him at all? A. Yes; I have known him for about six weeks—I never knew him in custody for felony—he is known in the division, from when he was born.
MR. PLATT. Q. I ask you whether he has not been in the habit of constantly associating with thieves? A. Yes.
MR. SHARPE. Q. Do you mean to say that of your own knowledge? A. From the fact of persons knowing him in the division—I have myself Seen him with persons who are notorious thieves.
The prisoner's landlady gave him a good character.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. KIDD conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN ATHEY . I reside at 76, Jermyn-street, and am clerk of some works now being carried on, Turkish-baths building—on the morning of the 7th December, about 5 o'clock, I was in Cockspur-street, and a man, whom I suppose to be the prisoner, suddenly ran against me with such violence, as to knock me into the road on my back—before I had time to recover myself, I felt a sudden tug at my watch-guard, which was round my neck—the guard broke—I called out "Police," and "Stop thief!"—I then got up and saw the man who had started from me, from fifteen to twenty yards from me, running in the direction of Dorset-place—I gave chase, calling out" Police!"—I followed him to Dorset-place, and then into Whitcomb-street, and in a small street there I found in custody of a police-constable—I only lost sight of him just as he went round the corner—I charged him with knocking me down and robbing me—at the moment of the assault, I did not see the man sufficiently to recognise him—I saw him, with sufficient distinctness immediately after—I recognised him by having a light jacket on—he was the party I followed—I am quite satisfied that the prisoner is the man I then saw—I saw no other man.
Cross-examined by MR. ABRAM Q. What works are these that you are occupied on? A. Some new works in Jermyn-street—I generally leave off work about half-past 5—I left home about 8 o'clock—I was with some friends, whose names I will mention if you like—I do not desire to say where we went—we were in several places of amusement, and I had had something to drink, perhaps six or seven glasses of gin and water—I was not quite sober, but I was so that I understood that I was assaulted and robbed—I did not recognise the prisoner as the man who knocked me down, but he is the person I saw running away from me immediately I got up—I have all along believed he is the man.
MR. KIDD. Q. Were you sufficiently in possession of all your senses, to distinguish objects and to know a man? A. I was.
JOHN WATKINS (Policeman, C 154). At 5 o'clock, in the morning of 7th December, I was in Whitcomb-street, Pall-mall-east—I heard a cry of "Stop thief," and immediately after that I met the prisoner—he came running up as fast as he could—I stopped him, and he said, "For God's sake, don't stop me, I am going to work at the Exhibition"—I took him back and met the prosecutor coming in the direction he ran—the prosecutor said, "That is the man I believe; I believe that to be the man."
Cross-examined. Q. Are you quite sure he said, "For God's sake?" A. I am—I did not address anything to him before he said that—I had been standing there some ten minutes—I did not see any one else about—I took the prisoner about twenty yards from the place where the procecutor was robbed—I looked for the watch, but there was a great deal of rain, dirt, and mud in the street.
JOHN CARPENTER (Policeman, A 77). I was on duty near Cockspur-street about 5 o'clock on the morning of 7th December, and heard a cry of "Stop thief!"—I saw Mr. Athey, the prosecutor, in Cockspur-street—he made a statememt to me—I met the constable Watkins bringing the prisoner back—I saw him before the other constable did—we both took the prisoner up to the prosecutor—he said he believed the prisoner was the man.
Cross-examined. Q. You saw some other working men about, did you not? A. I met one working man; he was dressed like the prisoner—he had a light jacket on like the prisoner—he had a can in his hand, appeamg to me as if he was going to work.
COURT. Q. Was that after you heard the cry of "Stop thief?" A. It was; he was coming in the direction of the National Gallery—he was walking, and coming in the direction opposite from that the prosecutor came.
The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows: "At half-past 4 o'clock on this Saturday morning I left my brother's house to see if I could get a day's work. I went along the Strand, and stood at the end of Trafalgar-street I was going to see a man in Whitcomb-street; the morning being cold I ran, and the constable stopped me—I said to him, that I was going towards the Exhibition, not to it."
COURT to JOHN ATHEY. Q. Did you lose your watch? A. Yes, and a silver-guard.
The prisoner received a good charaeter.— GUILTY .— Nine Months.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. HOBBY conducted the Prosecution.
GEORGE WIGG . I am a shoemaker, at Ilford—on the afternoon of 12th December, about 4 o'clock, there was a dispute between me and Charles Spall—the prisoner was present—I told Spall that if he did not leave off I would get up and set him down—I got up to set him down, and as I did so I felt something touch me in my side—I looked behind me and saw the prisoner going backwards to his seat, with a knife in his hand—I went back to sit down in my seat, and found the blood running down my leg—I went out into the garden, undid my clothes, and examined my leg, and found blood flowing from my right buttock—I went back to the shop where I had
been working when this occurred, and showed the wound to Spall and the prisoner, and all of them in the shop—Spall advised me to go to the doctor, and he told the prisoner he would give him a good hiding—he said, "I saw him thrust the knife at your side, but I did not know that he had stabbed you"—I went over to Mr. Sullivan's, the doctor's—this (produced) is the knife—I had had no quarrel with him on that day—I had some time back.
Cross-examined by MR. F. H. LEWIS. Q. You were on very good terms with the prisoner, were you not? A. I was very friendly with him, but he did not seem to be so with me—I had had no quarrel with him for some time previously—this is a kuife which he uses in his work—it is A shoemaker's knife.
MR. HORRY. Q. Have you seen it in his hand before? A. Yes; he had threatened to stab me several times before this.
MR. LEWIS. Q. You know that was only in fun, don't you? A. I don't know; he seemed enraged, and I took the knife from him—I was not doing anything to him at the time—his seat was next to mine.
HENRY WOODS (Policeman, K 388). I received this knife from the last witness—he brought it to me at the station, on the evening of 12th December—in consequence of what he said I apprehended the prisoner—I told him he was charged with stabbing George Wigg—he made no answer.
FREDERICK SMITH . I am errand-boy, in the service of Mr. Spall, the shoe-maker—I was in the shop on Thursday, 12th December, between 4 and 5 o'clock, and saw the prisoner and young Spall, and heard some words between Wigg and Spall—the prisoner stabbed Wigg with this knife—he was at work at the time, sitting on his seat—I afterwards saw the wound; there was blood flowing from it very fast.
Cross-examined. Q. Was the prosecutor stooping down at the time? A. The prisoner partly got up from his seat and thurst the knife at him—I can't recollect which hand he bad the knifein—Wigg was holding young Bpali down at the time the wound was inflicted.
EDWARD SULLIVAN . I am a surgeon at Ilford—between 7 and 8 o'clock on the evening of 12th December, Wigg came to me—I found a small incised wound on the right buttock, which had bled pretty freely—it was of a very trivial character indeed.
Cross-examined. Q. If a knife had been thrust against so tender a part of the body, would you not have expected a much greater wound? A. Decidedly; the wound was not three lines in depth, nothing more than through the cuticle—it was a very slight wound indeed.
GUILTY of unlawfully wounding.—Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury and prosecutor.— Confined One Month.
MR. PARK conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM KIBBIY . lam an ironmonger, at 22, Broadway, Stratford—on the evening of 6th November, 1 put these four coppers (produced) out before my shop, by the side of the door—they were safe at a quarter-past 7—they are worth about 3l. 10s.—I missed them about a quarter to 8, I should think—I did not see them again until the prisoner was taken into custody—I knew they were sent to the police-station the same evening.
WILLIAM AUSTIN . 1 live with my father and mother in Chapel-street, King-street, Stratford—I am just upon 15 years old—on 6th November, about 7 or 8 o'clock, 1 was in Wood's yard, sitting on a gate, and two men
came in with some coppers on their shoulders, and put them down; I think the prisoner was one of them—I had seen him before driving a donkey in Stratford—I knew him by sight previously—the other man said to the prisoner, "You take and put it down and go away, and I will stop here"—the prisoner then left, and the other man went and leant over the palings—I then saw two policemen come running by, and then he ran away—I saw the prisoner come back afterwards, look at the coppers, and then go away again—I then took the coppers, and carried them to Mr. Bradley, an ironmonger in Stratford—he told me they were not his, and I brought them back and put them in the same place—the police came up, and I told them about it—they asked me to carry the coppers down to the station, and I did so.
Prisoner. Q. Are you sure it was me? A. I think it was you; seeing you before, I thought it was you—you have not got the same clothes on as you had then.
THOMAS SIMPSON . I am a bootmaker at 1, High-street, Stratford—on the night of 6th November, about quarter to 8, I saw the prisoner come out of Wood's yard—I am quite certain it was him—he went in the direction of London.
Prisoner. Q. Have you never seen me come out of Wood's yard before; is there not a skittle-ground there? A. Yes, there is a beer-shop, with a skittle-ground; there is a way down Wood's yard into the skittle-ground—it is not a thoroughfare.
COURT. Q. Where did you see him coming out, coming the way they would come from the skittle-ground? A. They all come through that gate—whether he was coming from Wood's yard, or the skittle-ground, he would come through that gate.
JAMES KNIGHT (Policeman, K 400). On the night of 6th November, I was on duty in High-street, Stratford—I saw the little boy Austin there, and he gave me a description of some one who had stolen coppers—I searched for some one, but I could not find him—the boy took the coppers to the station.
GEORGE HUNTER (Policeman, N 357). On 7th November I had a description of some one given me, and I was in search of the prisoner—I took him in custody on 27th November, in Whitechapel—I told him I should take him—he said, "What for?"—I said, "For stealing four copper boilers from Stratford"—he made no reply—I conveyed him to West Ham station—the boy was sent for, and when be came there, he identified the prisoner.
COURT. Q. He came, and was asked whether that was the person? A. He was brought into the police-station, and as soon as he saw the prisoner he said he was the man—there were other constables there, one in plain clothes.
Prisoner's Defence. I went to live along with my mother, who lives at Stepney.
NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Recorder.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
143. JAMES ASHTON (34) , Stealing 40 lbs., of gun-metal, 19 brass tools, value 10l. 15s. and 31 lbs. of leaden bullets, value 7s. 6d., the property of Our Lady the Queen, his mistress, after a previous conviction in February, 1855; to which he
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MR. LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
EDWARD HILL . I am barman at the King's Arms public-house, Church-street, Deptford. On 6th December, about a quarter-past 11 o'clock, the prisoner came for a pint of porter, for which he paid 2d—he then had a second pint, and gave me a florin—I gave him 1s. 10d. change, and put it on top of the silver in the bowl—there was only one other florin there, and that was at the bottom—I had some conversation with my mistressthree minutes afterwards, took out the florin, which was in the same position, and gave it to her.
THOMAS STOCKS . I am landlord of the King's Arms public-house, Deptford. On 6th December I saw the prisoner there for a minute—a constable came to the side door—I had some conversation with him—I then spoke to my wife; she spoke to the barman in my presence, who went to the till, took out a florin, and gave it to my wife in my presence, and I marked it, and gave it to the constable—this is it (produced).
WILLIAM BOLL . I am in the service of my father, a coffee-shop keeper at Deptford. On 7th December, about 1 o'clock, the prisoner came for some coffee, and tendered a florin—I tried it with my teeth, bent it a little, told him it was bad, and asked him where be got it—he snatched it out of my hand, and gave me a good sixpence—a constable came to the door and spoke to me, and then took the prisoner.
CAROLINE GIPLHAM . I am a widow, of 62, Douglas-street, Deptford—I have been in the habit of buying watercresses of the prisoner—on 19th November he called and asked me to lend him a shilling to buy watercresses—in the evening he repaid me, and I told him that I had a waistcoat of my son's which I would give him, but I saw no more of him—when I took the shilling to the light I found it was bad—I marked it, and gave it to the constable.
JAMES RUSSELL (Policeman, R 282). On Friday night, 6th December, I saw the prisoner outside the King's Arms, Deptford—I called the landlord, and he went in and found a bad florin in the till—I then went in search of the prisoner, and found him at Mr. Bull's coffee-shop—I had some conversation with one of the witnesses who was there, in consequence of which I told the prisoner I wanted him to go to the police-station with me for passing bad money—he said that he was ready to go—I took him to the station, searched him, and found on him this bad florin, two sixpences, and 5 3/4 d. in copper—this other florin was given me at the police-station by Mr. Stocks—this shilling was given me by Mrs. Gillham at the station.
GUILTY .—He was further charged with having been before convicted at this Court, in July, 1860;to which he
PLEADED GUILTY>,** and the Jury then found him
GUILTY of a felonious uttering.— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
PLEADED GUILTY .**
Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor.— Confined Six Mouths.
MR. LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
MRS. GOSLING. I am the wife of John Gosling, and keep a tobacconist's shop at Blackheath. On the evening of 5th December, between 7 and 8, the prisoner came and asked for half an ounce of tobacco—she tendered me a two shilling piece in payment, and I gave her 1s. 10 1/2 d. change—I threw the two shilling piece into the till—there were no others there—the prisoner went away, taking the tobacco with her—a few minutes afterwards a police-constable, named Margetson, came in, and in consequence of what he said, I looked at the florin in the till, found it to be bad, and gave it to him—no one had been to the till after I put the florin there.
MARY ANN WHITTLE . I am barmaid at the Crown public-house, Blackheath. On the evening of 5th December, between 7 and 8, the prisoner came there and asked for a half—quartern of gin—she tendered a two-shilling piece in payment; and while I was giving her change the officer came in—he asked me, in the prisoner's hearing, what she had given me—I said, "A two—shilling piece"—he asked me if it was good—I said I would see, I thought so—I tried it in the tester, and found it to be bad—I had laid the change down—the prisoner was taken by the policeman, and I gave him the bad florin.
ANNE GEARSTEN . I keep a chandler's shop at Deptford—on 21st November, last, the prisoner came to my shop and purchased some dripping, which came to 4d.—she gave me a two shilling piece—I gave her 1s. 8d. change, and she went away—I did not put the florin out of my hand till after she was gone—I then looked at it and said, "Oh, I have taken a bad two-shilling piece"—I put it by itself on a shelf—on 5th December a policeman named Turner came to my shop, and I gave him the two—shilling piece—I have no doubt about the prisoner.
Prisoner. The other two pieces of money I must confess to. but this I do not know anything about.
JAMBS MARGETSON (Policeman, R 122). On 5th December I saw the prisoner—she was being followed by a policeman named Turner—I followed also in his company—I went to the shop of Mrs. Gosling, and had some conversation with her, and she gave me this two-shilling piece (produced)—I then followed the prisoner to the Crown public-house—I saw her go in, and directly after she entered the door, I followed—the prisoner was just in the act of taking up a quartern of gin in a glass to drink, and I said, "Put that down"—the barmaid then put down change on the counter, and I asked her what coin the prisoner had tendered—she said, "A two-shilling piece;" I asked her if it was a good one—she said, "I will see"—she then opened the till, put the florin in the tester, and said it was bad—she marked it, and gave it to me—I also marked it, and put it in my pocket—the prisoner was in the act of taking up the change, I prevented her, and the barmaid took the change back—my brother constable then came in, and we took hold of the prisoner's hands—I said, "Where is the change you got at Mrs. Gosling's, the cigar shop?"—she said, "Feel in my pocket"—I felt in her pocket, and pulled out 2d—going to Blackheath she said, "Hold up your hand, and I will give you the other change—I said, "Where?"—she said, "In my mouth"—I put up my hand, and she gave me 1s. 6d. out of her mouth—this is the other florin (produced).
JOSIAH TURNER (Policeman, R 237). On 5th December I followed the prisoner from Deptford-broadway to Blackheath-hill, where I fell in with the. last witness—I went in oonsequenoe of information I received at Mrs. Gearsten's shop—I received this bad florin (produced) from her.
Prisoner's Defence. I deny the third charge—I gave up all that I had to the police-constable, and told him how I came by it.
GUILTY .*— Confined Fifteen Months.
MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES MARGETSON (Policeman, R 122). On Wednesday, 20th November, about 7 o'clock in the evening, I was on duty in South-street, Greenwich, and saw the prisoner go into a marine-store dealer's shop, kept by a Mr. White, in South—street—he had a bag under his arm, containing something apparently heavy—I followed him in, and saw him put some lead piping into the scale—there was three—quarters of a cwt., it was weighed by the marine—store dealer—I asked the prisoner where he got it—he said, "I brought it from a house in London-street, Greenwich"—I said, "Where did you bring it from?"—he refused to give me any further account—he said, You know me; you know where I live"—I said, "If you don't give a satisfactory account of this lead I shall take you to the station"—he then said, "I found it in my yard on some litter, covered over with a sack—I said, "You have told two different tales; unless you give a satisfactory account I shall take you to the police-station"—I took him and the lead to the police-station—there were eleven pieces of leaden pipe, of different lengths—that which has been identified by Mr. Hills' servant is here—I really cannot tell the lengths of them—I have two or three pieces here—they are most of them that length.
Cross-examined by MR. PALMER. Q. Were you near the marine-store dealer's shop? A. I was—I know it very well—we are friendly as far as I know him—we speak—I reside close to the prisoner, in the same street—I have resided in Greenwich just upon seven years—I have known this man during that time, and have always believed him to be a respectable man up to the present time—that is the character he has borne in the neighbourhood—he did not say that he bought the lead in London-street; he said, "I brought it from a respectable house in London-street"—he repeated that two or three times—he would not have to pass through London-street to get into South-street—he did not come that way—leaving his home, of course, he could go down into London-street to do so, but it would be a very long way—I am quite positive about his saying London-street—he was telling the marine-store dealer when I went in, that he brought it down London-street; and the marine-store dealer said, "He told me he brought it from London-street, and I allowed my boy to go down with a truck"—I did not tell the Magistrate about what the marine-store dealer said—this is the property of Mr. Hills—I told the Magistrate all this—that was the defence the prisoner set up to the Magistrate—he did not say that the sack was Mr. Hills,' I afterwards found that out—there is nocharge for stealing the sack—I know the man's premises well from residing in the neighbourhood—he is a fly-owner—he does his work himself, I believe—he has two sons, and I believe the prisoner was a sort of horse-keeper to his sons till very recently; now I believe he goes out with the cabs—he has lost several horses, and now goes out with the cabs himself, I believe—his premises are half a mile or more, from Mr. Hills' works—there is a contract work going on there now between his house and Mr. Hills' works, what they call the low level—you can go in which way you please to the prosecutor's premises
—there is one way down the Greenwich-road, down Church-street—that would be more than half a mile; and there is another way by the creek, by paying a penny—that would be more than a quarter of a mile—I cannot say what is the breadth of the creek; there is sufficient room for two barges to pass, or two brigs; two full—sized brigs can pass each other—I believe there is a cofferdam across the creek—a short plank would not take a man across it—it is as wide as across this Court, I suppose—they would not be able to place a plank at all—there is sufficient room for a brig to pass along between this place and the creek—they are only allowed to block up half the creek—only one vessel can pass at a time, and that only at high water—there are little boats belonging to the cofferdam—I never saw men cross there, going to these works, in the day—the cofferdam does not, I think, join Mr. Hills' premises; I would not say positively—I never saw but one boat there, and that belongs to the company, to go up or down the river—I believe there are barges constantly unloading all day—I have seen them there night and day, constantly at work in their ordinary way of business—the prisoner's premises do not open on a public lane—the gates do not open on the Norman-road—oh, yes! his premises are enclosed with some high board-fence, and the cabs pass in and out through two large wooden gates, which are always kept looked or closed—you cannot see through them—they are not broken down, they are newly put up—the place has been lately repaired—it belongs to Mr. Peck ham—there is a respectable tradesman close to Mr. White, who has a donkey and cart, which I believe are placed in that yard, and there is another man who has a barrow, and his things, I believe, are put in that yard—I am never on night duty—I pass in and out all day, and all hours of the night—I must pass his premises to go home—I have no appointed time for going home; perhaps I go home generally at 10 o'clock, perhaps 1 or 2 o'clock in the day, or perhaps 6 o'clock—I have seen the gates locked up and securely fastened up, when the cabs come home, and I have seen the sons go direct to the door and get the key, and go and unlock the premises and put their cab in—I believe they have cabs that are out all night, and that come home at all hours—I believe the prisoner has three children—his wife is very near-sighted, but she is—not blind—she came and opened the door when I went to the prisoner's house, and took me into the front room, and I know the woman very well—I know she is not stone blind.
JOHN SCALES . I live at 72, st. james-place Church—street, Deptford, and am a plumber—I have been in the service of Mr. Frank Clark Hills, chemical works, Deptford, ever since 1834—the prisoner has been employed in removing straw and stuff from near those premises—he has been employed by the man, not by Mr. Hills—I should say that the rubbish and waste which he removed was between fifty and sixty feet from where he got this pipe—this piece of lead (produced) is three-quarter pipe—there are some of various lengths—it had been applied to the vitriol pans, for drawing off; applied as a syphon—the length of this piece is, as near as I can guess, about 3ft. 6in.—there is some 4ft 6in. and some 10 ft—the lengths I have mentioned apply to the various lengths of lead which were lying within fifty feet of the waste removed.
COURT. Q Were there any as much as 10 ft.? A. No, not in this lot—the pieces in this lot were about this length—the constable produced eleven pieces of lead to me—I did not measure all of them—there was very little difference in their lengths—the length was 3ft 6in. as near as can be—I did not observe what the length of the other pieces was—there was
one piece about 18 in. and one piece was less—I firmly believe that this is Mr. Hills' property by the use that these things are made for, and the work that it is used in—I do not know the date on which the constable came to me—I believe it was towards the end of November—after the police-constable came to me I looked at the large heap which was there—I did not miss any from it—I cannot say whether it had been pulled about or not, for the foreman has the looking over the warehouse—I believe this to be Mr. Hills' property, which formed part of the heap—this lead is the same size and weight as that on the heap—by the weight, I mean so much to a foot.
Cross-examined. Q. You did not weigh it, or compare it with the heap? A. Yes; I took a piece and compared it before the Magistrate with this off the new roll—I firmly believe that it is Mr. Hills' property, on account of its being similar in length, and the purpose for which it is used—the use is passing vitriol through it—it is used as a syphon—according to the depth of the pans, they cut the pipe.
COURT to JAMES MARGETSON. Q. When you found the lead, what shape was it in? A. Almost the same shape as now—when I brought it into Court it was precisely the same, bus during the time I was in the witness-box I suppose the witness bent it out straight—I found it to when I went back, and I bent it back as near as I could.
COURT to JOHN SCALES. Q. Did you straighten it? A. Not here; I did at home.
MR. PALMER. Q. This is a common thickness for lead of this sort? A Yes, for our purposes—they do not use such stout lead for water-works—we buy new lead for our chemical works—there is a stock taken of our lead every six months—I cannot tell what day we did it last—it has nothing to do with me—there are other stocks besides this in the yard, more than two or three times the quantity—the acid that is passed through this pipe makes it smell, and it turns the lead—the lead here is quite a different colour—the acid turns the colour of the inside of the pipe—there is no smell to this—it has been well washed—I am used to the smell, and I know it also by the taste of it—I did not wash it—if it had been just taken out of the pans it would bum my clothes—the policemannever told me that it had been well washed—the distance I have Spoken of is 50 or 60 feet—I have never measured it—there are not several other lots of lead—of this kind within 60 or 60 yards, unless it is down at the warehouse, and that if about 150 feet from the place, or nearly so—there if some of the same size in the warehouse; that is under lock and key—I cannot say where this was taken from—I do not know that my only reason for saying it was taken from the heap is because that is the nearest place—I do not know the prisoner's yard—I know where the men are at work in the creek—the men do not go to and from Mr. Hills' works by the creek—Mr. Hills won't suffer it—they have dopeit, and Mr. Hills forbade it—I dare say there are 200 men or more employed there by the Board of Works—there is a great deal of work going on there—I know Norman—street—I don't know whether there is a cab-yard there—pedlars and hawkers go by there with trucks—there are a great many trucks go up there—I have not seen trucks put away there—I have not seen the yard—I know they go along that road—I cannot read or write; I am no scholar.
COURT. Q. Is this your name? A. yes; I can just make my mark—I can just put my name.
MR. PALMER. Q. For five or six years this rubbish has been removed by the prisoner, has it not? A. I cannot say how long—I have been in the
employ of Mr. Hills ever since 1834—Mr. Bolger is present when the rubbish is taken away—I have been in the yard when it has been taken away—I dare say it may have been taken by this man for as much as five or six years—no one else has taken it to my knowledge for the last five or six years—I cannot say I have always seen Bolger present—I have not been present—I am in different parts of the yard—Mr. Bolger ought to see to that—I do not know whether the prisoner's wife is blind or not—I am not scholar enough to reckon up the value of the lead—I do not give the value of it—I never had any occasion either to buy or to sell any—I have not seen my master this week—Saturday was the last time I saw him—I have not seen him here.
MR. LILLEY. Q. Is that lead, in its present state, suitable for waterpipe? A. Yes; I have tasted it, and taste the remains of vitriol—I have put my finger in some of these pieces, and it tasted acid.
MR. PALMER called
JOHN FRANCIS BOLGER . I am ganger of the vitriol works Where the prisoner was—it is my duty to see what goes in and out of the works—I have charge of the whole shop—there are no stacks of lead in my shop; there are several in the yard and at the lead-stores—the stack of pipes Was about sixty yards, I should think, from Where the rubbish was taken; not sixty feet—the lead-stores are above sixty yards.
COURT. Q. Are the lead-stores in the open yard or in a building? A. In a building; there was no heap of old lead in the yard.
J. F. BOLGER (continued). There is no loose lead in the open air at the place where this man comes for the rubbish; there is some at about fifty or sixty feet distance—it is in all parts, of the yard, and is of different sizes—the particular sizes are not sorted into different stacks—they are of different sizes, sheet lead and pipe lead—there is a store in the warehouse for the lead—we use it in our shops for syphons for vitriol—the vitriol marks the lead—I do not keep an account of the stock—I cannot detect any vitriol marks on this lead—it marks them outside—the pipes go some way into the pan.
JURY. Q. Do you believe that that is such a syphon as is used in all works? A. Yes; such as that are used in our works—if this is a syphon, I think there ought to be marks of vitriol on it—there are four used in one set of pans and two in another, six altogether.
COURT. Q. How long do they last? A. I have had them last six months; it is according to the use of them—those that are done with go down into the store-room, and the foreman gives out new ones—if there are any on the heap in the yard, they are done with—they would show very plainly the marks of the vitriol; if this came from that heap, I should expect to see the mark of vitriol on it—I cannot see it—since this matter, I have been down in the warehouse and picked out several that we have had in our use; from the store-room.
JURY. Q. Do you unpack the straw from the old carboys? A. No.
MR. PALMER. Q. Would you, from the comparison you have made of these pipes, and from your knowledge of the trade, swear that that is a syphon that you have had in use? A. No, I could not; I have no belief as to the identity of this—I have generally been present when the rabbish has been taken away; if I have not been there, one of the men has, from
the same shop—I have seen the prisoner for seven or eight yean, I should think, taking away the rubbish—from where I was in the yard I must have seen if he had taken away three-quarters of a cwt. of lead.
Cross-examined by MR. LANGFORD. Q. How long have you been at the head of the vitriol-house? A. Four years last June, since my father died—I cannot tell whether this is the same kind of pipe that is used for the syphons in our vitriol-house—we use three quarter pipe, and an inch and a quarter pipe as well—this is three-quarter pipe—it is the same sort of pipe that is used in our house—I know the smell and taste of vitriol—I can-not smell anything of it—we use three-quarter pipes for our syphons.
MR. PALMER. Q. Other people, I believe, use the same size pipe in their chemical works? A. Yes; thousands of tons of this same sort of three-quarter pipe are used for various purposes.
WILLIAM FINCH . I am a large fruit merchant and gardener in the Greenwich road—I have been there for from twelve to fourteen yean—I pay the prisoner one shilling a week for a portion of the yard—we can always go in there when we like, and my boy has been there sometimes as early as 6 o'clock in the morning, and as late as 11 at night—there is a cart standing there sometimes; sometimes more—I think there is hardly any fastening at all to the place, I really do not know—I do not go there myself—he can always get in—you can easily climb over, it is not very high—I have known the prisoner about seven or eight years, I should say, during which time I have found him honest; I have now and then lent him a trifle of money, and he has always repaid me—I never knew anything against him—I know his wife, she is blind, and has been so for, I think, about six months—I cannot say exactly—she can walk about the house.
BENJAMIN ANDREWS . I am a baker, and have resided in Greenwich about forty years—I have known the prisoner near upon twenty yean—I never heard anything against his honesty—I have served him with bread for the last twelve years.
THOMAS BLACKNOW . I reside at Deptford, and am a gardener—the prisoner is my tenant, and has been so between eleven and twelve years—I never heard anything against him—I have always found him a hard-working industrious man—I live about a quarter of a mile off—the prisoner's house faces the gates of the works—that is my house.
The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows: "I never stole the lead."
COURT to J. F. BOLGER. Q. How often did he go to remove the rubbish? A. Sometimes once a month, sometimes once in two months.
COURT to JOHN SCALES. Q. Do you know how often he went? A. No, I cannot tell you.
GUILTY —Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his age.
Confined Four Months.
Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.
148. JAMES JOHNSON (38), RICHARD ROWLANDS (24), and EDWARD BALDWIN (23) , Breaking and entering the warehouse of Morris Harris and others, and stealing 400 lbs., weight of flannel rags, the property of the masters of Johnson and Rowlands.
MR. F. H. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.
JACOB MORRIS HARRIS . I am in partnership with my father, Morris Harris, and my brother, Simeon Morris Harris, as rag merchants, in Barron's-place, Waterloo-road, Southwark—the prisoner Johnson was in our service as foreman, and Rowlands as carman—Baldwin had been in our service as a labourer up to within a few days of the robbery—Johnson resides in a house abutting the roof of our warehouse—on Friday, 29th November, I marked a bag containing white flannel rags, and saw others marked; one of them contained cloth cuttings—on the Saturday, I, and my brother, and a police constable concealed ourselves in the warehouse between 5 and 6 in the afternoon—we had not done any business that day, being the Jewish Sabbath—after we had been there about an hour, it must have been about half-past 6, I heard the window of the house adjoining our premises opened—I then heard some steps on the tiles just over our heads—the steps continued along the tiles, and presently I saw some laths, which form a portion of the roof, removed, and the prisoners Baldwin and Rowlands descend from the roof into the ware-house—the laths extend some fourteen feet, but the opening made was, I should imagine, from six to eight feet, and about four or five feet wide—after that a bag was carried by Baldwin up a ladder which is usually placed there, and put on the tiles; two other bags were then passed through this opening. on to the tiles, by both the prisoners, and they then got—out on the tiles; but I should have stated that there was a man on the tiles whom I could not distinguish at the time—I then heard the bags rolled along the tiles, and heard them drop down the wall into the yard at the side of the warehouse, which yard is the fore-court of the prisoner Johnson's—e—I afterwards went out of the warehouse, and saw Baldwin in the custody of a police-officer, and Johnson and Rowlands running from a van which stood at the door laden with rags—I went a short distance down the street, and saw Johnson in the custody of my brother—I then returned and took Rowlands into custody, and handed him over to the police-officer; he had run down an entry which I knew had no thoroughfare—there were some bags in the van—I did not know who they belonged to, but three of them were our property, and part of those marked on the Friday—there were five or six other bags of rags in the van.
Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD (for Johnson). Q. Does Johnson deal in rags? A. I do not know—I do not know that the six bags belonged to him—I believe they did not belong to us—the front of Johnson's house abuts against the roof of our warehouse—the distance from his window to our—warehouse is scarcely two feet—I suppose that the men got out of that window on to the roof—the van was not standing at the door of Johnson's house—there is a passage, or fore-court, to the house of about ten or twelve yards, down which the bags must have been carried to be placed in the van—there was no carman in charge of the van—the three bags which I identified as ours were in the van with the others—they were all about the same size, four or five feet long and two or three feet wide—when I saw Johnson run away, I was going towards the van for the purpose of apprehending him—I did not hear any one call out, "Here comes the governor."
Cross-examined by MR. LILLEY (for Rowlands). Q. Was it Rowlands' duty to look after your horses? A. Yes—the stables adjoin the warehouse—I am not aware that at that time one of the horses was lame, not more so than usual—one of them has had a slight splint for some years—Rowlands has been in our employ about eight months, always in the same capacity—while I was watching on this occasion, I was on the ground—floor, underneath the tiles; it is a one story warehouse—the loft I speak of is not
next to the roof that I was standing under, it is at the end of the ware-house, and the laths are just in front of it, for the purpose of throwing light into the loft—I was standing in the body of the warehouse—the loft does not extend over the body of the warehouse at all, it only abuts against it.
COURT. Q. What sort of a warehouse is this? A. It is a large ware-house; the portion now in question is one floor only, but at the end there is a building, which some years back was used as a stable and provender loft, and that loft is now converted into a rag store—the loft is about ten or twelve feet from the floor of the warehouse—rags are stored in the loft and also on the floor of the warehouse; we have some hundreds of tons there—the warehouse is lighted with gas—the gas was not lighted on this evening—there are no windows, only about fourteen feet of these lath openings; the laths are about three inches wide, and are placed about four inches apart—that is the only means of light—the weight of one of these bags would be from about 1 1/2 cwt. to 1 3/4 ewt.; one bag weighed more—I have not weighed them since—that is the average weight of a bag of flannel rags—the size would be from about four to five feet long and three feet wide.
Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR (for Baldwin). Q. Do I understand you that after the bags had been taken out the tiles were replaced? A. The laths, not the tiles; no tiles were taken off, some appeared to have been displaced by the feet—the laths were placed on loosely, not nailed on—I can't say whether they had been loose before; I saw them removed by their hands—my brother and the constable were watching with me; we were all standing within a few inches of each other, about four yards from where the entry was made—the entry was made sixteen or eighteen feet above me—I believe Baldwin came through first, but I would not swear positively—the ladder was standing against the wall, where it always stands; it is the means of egress and ingress to the loft—I could see the laths perfectly well from where I stood—I could see the men come into the premises; they both came down on to the floor of the warehouse—I cannot tell which came on to the floor first—they were then only about four yards from me, my brother, and the policeman—the prisoners said something relative to there being a large bag; I almost forget the exact words, but I heard the words, "This is a whacker" or something of that—Baldwin carried up the first bag—one bag was removed from the ground floor, and two from the loft; they were not carried up the ladder, they were lifted up out of the loft on to the roof—Baldwin did not come down into the warehouse again, but I saw him in the loft—I did not see him carry out anything more—there were some bags lifted up; I did not notice particularly who had them in their arms, but I an satisfied that both lifted the bags from the loft on to the tiles—we all three left the warehouse together; that was after the laths had been replaced—I did not exactly see the laths replaced, I heard them, but I was trying to get out at that time; we had Home distance to go; my brother had then left the policeman and myself and had gone towards the end of the warehouse, towards the door—he had not gone out; we all went out together.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Was there plenty of light through the eight feet opening? A. Plenty—I will undertake to swear that both Baldwin and Rowlands wore in the warehouse; they were quite as close to me as you are.
COURT. Q. You say the light came through the openings of the laths, what light was there at half—pant 5 or 6? A. The light of the evening; no more than that.
SIMEON MORRIS HARRIS . I am in partnership with my father and brother—I was concealed in the warehouse this evening, with my brother and the policeman—I heard the window of the house, belonging to the prisoner Johnson, open, and I saw three persons get out of the window on to the roof of our warehouse—I saw that through the lattice work, which looks on to Johnson's house—I could not at that time see who the three persons were—I heard them walk along the roof until they reached the loft; they then removed some palings or laths, and made an opening of some seven or eight feet, or it might be more—Baldwin and Rowlands then descended into the loft—I saw them get down the ladder—Rowlands then lifted a bag of rags on to the back of Baldwin, and Baldwin earned it up the ladder, and placed it on the tiles, assisted by Rowlands—Baldwin then stepped on to the ladder again, and from thence into the loft, and took two bags out of the loft, and put on the tiles—they then got on the tiles themselves; but, previous to that, I heard a remark made by Rowlands, "Here is a whacker," that was speaking of the first bag, which was very heavy; and, while in the act of rolling it on to the tiles, it caught the edge of the gutter, and he said, "Hold hard, it catches," or, "it has caught; all right"—when they got on the tiles they replaced the laths, and commenced rolling the bags along the tiles, towards the end of the warehouse which looks into the fore-court of Johnson's house—I then got upon a stack, formed of some bags of rags, and looked through the lattice work into Johnson's yard, and I saw Johnson standing in the yard or fore—court, seven or eight yards up the fore-court—I saw the bags thrown down to him by those on the tiles; they then passed through the window of the house, and came down and assisted each other to put the bags on each other's backs, and carry them to the van—they all assisted in that—we then made the best of our way to the counting-house, and through that into the street—some noise was made in opening the door, and a remark was made, such as, "There is some one coming"—I ran towards the van, and saw Johnson running from the van—I ran after him, and caught him within a very short distance of the horse's head—Rowlands also ran away, and concealed Limself down a little right of way adjoining our warehouse—I did not see where Baldwin was.
Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. Whose van was this? A. It was a strange van—I do not know where it was hired from—there was no one with it—a little boy fetched it—it was not standing in the Waterloo-road, but in Barron's place, a turning out of the road, at the entrance to the fore-court of Johnson's house—there is a window to Johnson's house, from which they could get on to the roof of our warehouse—it is a large window—when I first saw Johnson I was only a few yards from him I—was in the warehouse looking through the lattice-work into the fore-court of Johnson's house—I could not see the van from where I was then—I was close to the house, and Johnson was also close to the house—I saw Johnson go up the fore-court with a bag, and come back without it, so I presume he put it into the van—there were nine bags in the van—I could not see the private marks on the, bags when he was carrying them—I could distinguish them from the other bags, because I saw them thrown down—I saw the nine bags carried—the other six were brought out of Johnson's house, and put down in the yard ready to be taken away with the other three—I did not see them brought out, but I am certain they were not brought out of the window, because I was there all the time—from where I was standing by the lattice, I could see the window of Johnson's house; it was almost level with it—I can't say as to the, number of sacks I saw on the ground—I saw three thrown down
—the others were not thrown down in the same way; not at that time—they might have been earlier in the day; but none but the three were thrown down that evening, and they were thrown from our warehouse, not from Johnson's window—we had commenced watching at 4 o'clock—I don't know that the other six bags were Johnson's; they came from his house—I don't know that they are not ours; I would sooner say they were than they were not, although we cannot identify them—we deal—in that description of bags.
Cross-examined by MR. LILLEY. Q. You commenced watching about 4, how long had you been there before you heard the footsteps on the roof, and saw the laths removed? A. Very nearly three hours, I should think—at the time the laths were removed I was almost underneath, on the floor of the warehouse—I know it was Johnson's window that I heard open, because I saw it as well as heard it—I could not see it from the floor of the ware-house, but I could from another part; and then, during the time the men were walking along the roof, we walked down the warehouse, and reached the bottom of the warehouse about the same time that they removed the laths at the top—the top of Johnson's house is somewhat higher than our warehouse—it is not more than sixteen feet from where we were standing to the roof—at the time Johnson's window opened I was standing on some bags of rags, seven or eight feet high, looking at the window, waiting for it to open—the only light came through the roof, through the laths—the whole matter took a very short time indeed; they had done it so often they were very perfect in the business.
Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. Where did you go to when you left the warehouse? A. Into Barron's-place—my brother went with me—I believe I got out first, but we all got out close together as fast as we could—I apprehended Johnson—I saw Baldwin afterwards run down the right of way, or fore—court of Johnson's house—I do not know that he was lodging at Johnson's—I believed he lived with his father—I know that he has frequently slept at Johnson's house; but whether he lodged there I do not know—we were not all three standing together when the men came through—my brother and the policeman were standing at the bottom of the stack, and I was at the top—that was when the men came through the window of Johnson's house—at the time they came into the warehouse we were all three together, standing under the paling—when the men came to the bottom of the ladder they were so close to us that we might have touched them, had we been so inclined—I could not see all over the loft from where I stood—I could see into it, and could see the men there.
HENRY NORTON (Policeman, L 63). I watched with Messrs. Harris on 30th November—the first thing I saw was Rowlands and Baldwin enter the premises—they came on to the loft, got on to the ladder, and came down to the bottom of the warehouse—Rowlands assisted in putting one bag on Baldwin's back—he carried it up the ladder to a hole which they had made in the roof sufficiently large to get the bag through—one said it was a thumper, it must be about 2 1/2 cwt.—it was then rolled on to the tiles—they then returned to the loft, which is about half-way down, and then they put up two more bags; then went out and secured the place as near as possible as before—I afterwards apprehended Baldwin at the side of the warehouse leading from Johnson's house.
Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. Did he say "a thumper?" A. I believe so—I would not be certain whether it was thumper or whacker—it was one or the other.
Cross-examined by MR. LILLEY. Q. Had you known Rowlands before?
A. Yes; I had been watching them for nearly a month—I used to watch them coming up the court talking to each other in the entry to the foreman's house—it is a narrow passage between two warehouses—it is no thoroughfare.
Cross-examined by Mr. TAYLOR. Q. Where did you apprehend Baldwin? A. At the side of the warehouse, about twenty or twenty-five yards from Johnson's door, and about ten yards from the streets—I had seen him run there from the van as I came out of the warehouse—he stopped as soon as I came up to him, and said, "What is it? what is it?—I don't know that he lodged at Johnson's—he did not tell me so—I have seen him backwards and forwards there.
The prisoners' statements before the Magistrate were read as follows: "Baldwin says: I was not in the warehouse at all; the witness must be mistaken. Johnson says: Six of the bags were not Mr. Harris's; the other three were theirs. Rowlands says: Baldwin and Johnson asked me to assist them in puttiug the six bags into the van.
The prisoners received good characters.
JOHNSON— GUILTY .— Four Years Penal Servitude.
ROWLANDS— GUILTY .—
BALDWIN— GUILTY .—
Confined Nine Months.
MR. LEWIS stated that, during the last fifteen months, the prosecutor had been robbed to the extent of 1,000l. and they believed Johnson had instigated the other prisoners to join him in the depredations.
149. DANIEL GARNSEY (22), Unlawfully taking Elizabeth Ann Ploughman, aged 14 years, out of the possession of Alfred Miller; he having lawful charge of her. Second Count, out of the possession of Mary Louisa Miller, her mother.
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
ELIZABETH ANN PLOUGHMAN . I was 14 years old last August—my mother is married to a gentleman named Miller, and I have lived with them at 10, Church-street, Camberwell—I lived entirely at home, and my employment was fancy needle-work—I had no employment out of doors—about five weeks ago I became acquainted with the prisoner—I first saw him from my father's window—he was at work at a house which was being repaired opposite—I smiled from the window to him, and he smiled back again—afterwards, in the same week, I went over and told him that I had come over to look at the house—he showed me over it—it lasted about half an hour; I did not hurry myself much—I had no notion of taking the house—that was on Saturday—I met him next day, Sunday, on Camberwell-green, at 6 o'clock in the evening—that was not accidental; I had arranged with him to meet him—I remained in his company till half-past 8—we were walking about all that time—I got away from him because my parents thought I was going to church—the prisoner did not know what I had told them—I did not tell him that I had made any excuse—I met him next on Monday evening, and was with him about an hour—I got out because 1 had to go across the green to the grocer's—between then and the evening when I went away from home, I met him, I suppose, twenty times—on one of those occasions I told him that I got out to go to Mrs. Sibley's, the lady that employed me; that I had to tell my mother and father so—I met him on Monday evening, 2d December, by Camberwell—green; that was accidentally—I had told my mother and father that I was going to Mrs. Sibley's again, but I did not intend going; I intended meeting the prisoner,' and I did
meet him—I went with him to the Elephant and Castle, and then he persuaded me to come back home—I did not yield to that persuasion; I said that I would not go back home—nothing had taken place between me and him—I told him that mother and father had been very angry with me at home, because a bill had not been paid—that was true—when I said that I would not go home, the prisoner took me to his father's house in Drury-lane—we only stayed there a few minutes; we went for a walk, and then we went to Bloomsbury—we first went to a coffee-house in Long-acre, and had some tea—we left there at a little after 8, and went for a walk, and then we went to High-street, Bloomsbury, and did not leave there till next morning—I had never been there before—he took a bed there, and I was with him—I slept with him—we went next morning and had coffee at the coffee-shop—I walked about a short time with him, and then I went home with him to his father's, where I met his sister Edith, who went with me to seek for a lodging—I saw the prisoner again next evening—I slept with his sister Edith that Tuesday evening, in Bedford-place—I saw the prisoner on Wednesday afternoon, and slept with him that night, but not at the same place as we slept on Monday—on Thursday, the night he was taken in custody, I slept at the lodging, and next morning I went with his father to the police-court, where he was to be examined before the Magistrate—I saw the prisoner yesterday, and spoke to him—he said that he would meet me by the Elephant and Castle, on Sunday evening, if he got off all right.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you tell him that your father and mother had been very angry with you? A. Yes; it was about a bill that had not been paid, and father found it out; he had given me the money to pay it, and I gave it to my mother because she asked me for it—I do not know what she did with it, but she did not pay it—she did not spend it; she said that father found it on the shelf—they were frequently angry with me, each of them—mother has hit me several times, sometimes with her hand, and once she hit me with a stick across my head, and it hurt my head—there was no blood at any time—this has never been in my father's presence—my father does not go to work, he is in the house all day—my mother is always sober—I do not know that she has had anything to drink when she has beaten me in this way—I have not told the prisoner of my being badly treated at home, only on the Monday evening—I told him that I would not return; he tried after that to get me to return; he told me on Wednesday he had promised my father and mother that I should return, but I declined going—his mother thought it would be best for me to return, and told me so, and I said, "No, I will not go home"—after I was taken home I went in search of him again, that was done without any previous communication with him; I had not seen him—I told the prisoner that I was sixteen years old—I sent some letters home to my mother—I sent the first one on the Tuesday, merely say in g that I was very happy where I was, and did not intend to return—up to the time that I saw the prisoner on the Monday night that I went away, he did not know that I was going to leave home—he had not asked me to leave home—it was simply in consequence of that quarrel at home, and their being angry with me; and when we got to the Elephant and Castle he tried to persuade me to return.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Where did you write these letters, was it at his father's house? A. I wrote one at his father's house, the one in blue ink—he was not present when I wrote it, nor was his father, I was alone—(Letter read: "Dear Mother and Father, I am quite happy and comfortable, and do not
intend returning home again; I am living with Daniel's sister at present, and do what you will you shall never get me from him, as we have always had regard for each other. I came away of my own accord, so there is no blame attached to him, and I am sure he always meant well towards me. Do not trouble yourselves about me as I shall come and see you soon; your affectionate daughter, Lizzie ")—he had not promised to do anything for me—I positively swear that I had not said anything to him before the Monday about my going away—he always meant well towards me.
ALFRED MILLER . I live at 20, Church-street, Camberwell, and am dispenser to a medical gentlemen—in August, 1852, I married the last witness' mother, and from that time down to 2d December the child always resided with us—I have behaved towards her with kindness ever since I have known her—on Monday, 2d December, she went to Mrs. Sibley's, in Grosvenor-park, who she works for; she was to return in three-quarters of an hour, but did not do so; we did not take notice of it, as she sometimes stopped to finish work there—I then went to Mrs. Sibley's, but did not find her—her absence that night was not with my consent—on Wednesday, 4th December, about twelve o'clock, I saw the prisoner with Inspector Frost, of the P division; I asked him where my daughter was, and what he had done with her—he said, "I do not know where she is; I have not seen her since Monday night—about half an hour afterwards he came over to my house—I was called in to him, and met him in the passage—he said, "I have told you an untruth, and now I tell you the truth; I did take your daughter away"—he went down stairs; Mrs. Miller was there, and Mrs. Osborne; and he said that he took her to his father's house, and she slept there and dined there the following day, Tuesday; and his sister went and took lodgings for her in Bedford-street, but he did not know the number—Mrs. Miller asked him whether he would produce her, and he said that he would about 5 o'clock that afternoon, solemnly declaring that he had not reduced her, and that he would bring her home a virtuous girl—he did not bring her back at 5 o'clock, nor did she come at all, and I went that night to Bow-street—on the next day, Thursday, about 9 o'clock in the evening, I saw the prisoner in custody—he said, "If you will give me time I will produce your daughter"—I said, "Where is she?" he said, "I do not know"—I gave him in charge—he is not still working opposite to me; but I have seen him in the neighbourhood of my house since he ceased to work there, as recently as Monday, in this week—she was then at my house; but was not aware that he was near the place—I passed him in Church-street—Saturday was the last day he worked there—I always treated the girl with the greatest kindness—there was nothing on my part, or my wife's, that I am aware of, to cause her to leave her home.
Cross-examined. Q. You were angry with her before she left? A. That was all settled, and I forgave her—I was angry with her on Monday afternoon, about 3s. 7d. which I had given to her to pay a bill—I asked her why she had not paid it, and she made me no answer—she did not say that she had given it to her mother—her mother said that she had put it on the shelf, and then sent the girl somewhere else, and forgot it—I found it on the shelf on the Monday—I only said, "You are a naughty girl"—her mother then said, "It is my fault;" and it was all settled—I do not know of her mother beating her at any time with a stick—she may have boxed her ears if she has been a bad girl; but I do not believe she ever used a stick to her—I said nothing about sending her away to service—my wife is not given to drinking, that I am aware of.
MARY LOUISA MILLER . I was formerly married to a gentleman named Ploughman—the first witness is my daughter—she was fourteen years old on 11th August—when she went away from home. on Monday, 2d December, I only knew that she was going out for three-quarters of an hour—her absence during that night, and subsequently, was not with my consent—I have treated her with kindness, and as a mother ought—I have not beaten her with a stick—I have never corrected her any more than is a mother's duty—I am never the worse for liquor that I am aware of.
Cross-examined. Q. Have you sent out your daughter for anything to drink? A. No; there are persons on the premises who can vindicate my character—I have never beaten her with a stick—I have cuffed her ears; but it has been for insolence, and for her misconduct and disobedience—she would be very impertinent in the way of answering a parent—she did not call me names, but she would not answer me in a proper manner.
MARY OSBORNE . I live at 28, Harvey-road, Camberwell—on Wednesday or Thursday, 4th or 5th December, I heard the prisoner say that he met the girl Ploughman at Camberwell-green on Monday morning, and took her to his father's house—he was speaking to her father and mother.
JOSEPH KAY (Policeman). I took the prisoner, and told him it was for decoying Elizabeth Anu Ploughman from her parents—he said that he did not take her away, she went away with him, and she would not go home—he afterwards called at the prosecutor's house, and said that if they would allow him time, and stay proceedings against him, he would find her.
The prisoner received a good character.
NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.
MARY ANN BYWATER . I am forewoman to Thomas Welch and others, at their manufactory in Southwark-bridge-road—I have to receive goods when they are brought into the machine-room, and make an entry of them in this book (produced)—I find here an entry in my own writing of a gross of collars, called Oxfords, No, 275, on 29th October, 1860—I mark the collars when I enter them, with the number of the gross—I find my mark on these collars (produced) 275—all the gross were marked 275—they also have on them the stamp of the owner, "W and M," the usual stamp that we place on goods—after I have entered and stamped them, they are passed over the counter for some of the hands to sew—each of the workpeople has a book in which I enter the goods given to them to work up in the work-room—this is one of the books—after they are stitched up they are brought back to me, and are then given back to be tacked—they are then brought to me again, and are again given to another person to stitch again; they are then buttonholed, and sent to the laundress to be dressed—I do not find in my book any entry of the receipt of these collars back again after I first gave them out—I did not have them again—this gross has never been finished—some of the collars produced are Paragon collars—they also belong to Messrs. Welch and Margetson—none of these are finished goods a; they are—not in a state to be sold in our establishment.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. I believe you knew nothing of your loss until a few weeks ago? A. We missed the goods in December; that would be about two months—after the entry I have spoken of—we manufacture hundreds of thousands of collars in the course of a year, and employ
very many hands—the 275 is a pencil mark on the collar; it is not on each collar—perhaps I should mark five or six in a gross; each gross has a separate number.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you take stock in December last? A. Yes; about the middle of December, and we then missed them—we never sell any in this unfinished state.
GEORGE FELTON . I am in the employment of Messrs. Welch and Margetson—I remember some collars being missed at the end of last year, No. 275—I am manager of the room that Mrs. Bywater speaks of—I look over the entries she makes—these collars are not finished—they are never sold in this state—they have to go through four more operations; they are useless to anybody in this state—there are no button-holes to them.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe you went to the prisoner in consequence of some information that was given to you? A. I did—I received that information on 17th October, from Ann Vass, and went to the prisoner the same day; he was not at home then—I called again in about three hours and a half and saw him—I did not ask him whether he had any collars in his possession; I told him he had them—he said, "Yes," and immediately showed these collars to me—he said he had bought them some time previously—when I first called I saw his wife—I told her I came from Welch and Margetson's, about some collars, and she told me they were not on the premises.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Did the prisoner say how long back it was that he had bought them? A. About nine or ten months from that time—I asked him of whom he had bought them—he said he did not know; it was a tall, thin woman—I asked what he gave for them—he said a shilling a dozen—I told him that was not the value of them—he said he did not know the value of them—I told him they were stamped in indelible ink, and unfinished, and he should not have bought them—he said he was a foreigner and could not read, and therefore could not understand our stamp upon them—he keeps a leaving shop; that is an unlicensed pawnbroker's—he did not produce any book to show that he had bought them—they are worth about 5s. per dozen in the state they are now—they would have been 7s. when finished.
ANN VASS . I am the wife of Charles Vass, a labourer, at 47, Bickleigh-street, Lambeth—I work as a needle—woman—I know the prisoner—I went to his shop in the early part of October; it was the Sunday morning before I went before the Magistrate—I went there for the purpose of leaving a parcel; the shop is termed a leaving shop—he advances money upon things—he puts a ticket on the parcel, but does not give any ticket—while I was there a man came in to buy a collar; after he had left, the prisoner asked me if I was not a collar maker—I said "Yes"—he said he had got a lot of collars that wanted finishing, would I take them and do them, and I said T would as I was slack of work—he said it was not convenient to show them to me then, would I call again—I did call on the Monday morning—he said he had not got them ready—I called on the Tuesday, and he then showed me the collars; there were five dozen and a half of one kind, two of another, and a dozen and a half of another; they were the same collars that were afterwards shown to me by the officer—two dozen were entirely finished, and the rest were unfinished—he asked me what I would do them for—I said I would do them for a shilling a dozen—he said he could not afford that, they were not worth that to him, he wanted them to sell in the shop—I told him they were worth 5s. 6d. a dozen—he said if I liked to have them he would self them to me for what he gave for them—I told him I did not want any—I was going out of the shop and he called me back—I do sot remember what
he said, but I took up the collars and looked at them a second time, and I saw Mr. Welch's mark on them—I looked at a dozen separately, and saw they were all marked—I asked him who he bought them of, and he said of a tall, thin woman—I said, "Do you know they are stolen collars; that Mr. Welch's mark is on them"—he did not make any answer—I told him they belonged to the firm I worked for, and I would not have anything to do with them—it was before I found out the mark that he offered them to me at a shilling a dozen—I went directly to the firm, and told them.
ALAXANDER MCLEOD (Policeman, A 457). I accompained Mr. Felton to the prisoner's house on 17th October—eight dozen collars altogether were produced to us—none that I saw were finished—I took him into custody, I searched, but found no book in which things were entered—the inspector asked him at the station if he could read or write, he said "Yes"—I had asked him at the shop how he took the collars in with a stamp on them, and he said he was a foreigner and could not read or write.
Cross-examined. Q. He is a foreigner, is he not? A. I am not aware of it, except from what he stated—when he was discharged on his own recognisances by the Magistrate, I saw that he made a mark for his name.
The prisoner received a good character.— NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MESSRS. LLOYD and UNDIBDOWN conducted the Prosecution.
HENRY HIGGINS . I belong to the King of Prussia public-house, Fair-street, Horseleydown—on 28th November last, the prisoner came to our house for a pint of porter, and tendered me a shilling, which I put in the till—there was no of her shilling there—I gave him two fourpenny-pieces and twopence change—I then had occasion to go to the till to serve another customer, and found the shilling was bad—the prisoner had then gone—in consequence of the way he drank the beer and left the house, I thought he knew it was bad and I followed him, and gave him into custody—he was about twenty yards off when I caught him in conversation with a woman—I gave the shilling to a constable.
Prisoner. Q. Do you recollect that you went and sat down in your inner room and played at dominoes? A. No; you were very quickly gone—you were not out three minutes before I took you in custody—I have had a great deal of bad money offered me—I know your face well—you have not offered me any to my knowledge—I can swear you were in my house before—I cannot say how many times, it might be half a dozen—I think I have seen you at other places also.
WILLIAM VICKHAM (Policeman, M 202). On 28th November last, the last witness gave the prisoner into my custody, and, at the same time, gave me a counterfeit shilling—I searched the prisoner and found two sixpences, two fourpenny—pieces, and twopence farthing, good money.
ROSA HAYWARD . I live with my father at the Five Bells public-house, Bermondsey-square—on 14th November last, the prisoner came to our house for a glass of stout and a biscuit—I served him, and he gave me a two shilling piece—I tried it between my teeth, and thought it was a bad one—I gave it to my sister, and she gave it to my father—he told the prisoner it was a bad one, and sent for a constable and gave him in charge.
Prisoner. Q. When you gave the two shilling piece to your sister, did not she take it up stairs? A. Yes—I was in the bar.
ROBERT HAYWARD . I am the proprietor of the Five Bella public-house—on 14th November last, I received a bad florin from my daughter, up stairs, she came up with it—in oonsequence of that I went down into the bar, and found the prisoner there, and told him it was a bad one—he put his hand in his pocket, and pulled out some farthings, and he was so confused be could not count them, and at last be apologised very much for paying me in farthings I questioned him, and asked him where he got it from he said first he got it from—his sister, and then he said his sister gave it him—I then said to my man, "Go with him, and see for his sister "he went out, but could not get any satisfactory answers the prisoner was brought back and given into custody my youngest daughter gave the two shilling piece to the constable in my presence.
JAMIS HOLDING (Policeman, M 199). I took the prisoner into custody at the Five Bells, and received this florin (produced)—I searched the prisoner, and found a halfpenny upon him—subsequently to that he was brought before the Magistrate, remanded, and discharged.
Prisoner. Q. When you went to Mrs. Hawkins, did she admit she had given me a two shilling piece? A. She did two days afterwards, not at the time.
COURT. Q. Who is this Mrs. Hawkins? A. His sister-in-law—I went down with Mr. Hayward's boy to Mrs. Hawkins the same night—it was not on that occasion she admitted it; it was afterwards.
Prisoner's Defence. They have had every facility offered them of finding out that I had a bad character, and was dealing with bad money, which I never have in my life.
GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
MESSRS. LLOYD and UNDERDOWN Conducted the Prosecution.
MARIA. THORNE . I am the wife of William Thorne, of 1, Bond-street, Vauxhall, Lambeth, corn-dealer, and chandler—on Wednesday, 27th November, between 1 and 2, Sarah Crawford came to my shop and asked me for an egg, which came to five farthing—she gave me a fourpenny piece, and I gave her 2 3/4 d. change I saw it was bad directly she went out of the shop I went outside, but could not see her—I had not put it into any till, or rais it with any other money I put it away by itsel—the next evening, about 8 o'clock, Mary Ann Tiazard came in and asked for a half-penny worth of oatmeal, and gave me a fourpenny piece exactly like the one I had taken the day before—it was bad—I told my husband and he gave her in charge I gave the foorpenny pieces to policeconstable Lansdale.
Tizzard. Q. When you found it was bad, I said I did not know it was bad, and you said, "Oh! yes, you must have known it was bad? A. No; I sent and called my husband directly—I did not hear you say so I told my husband you were very much like the person that came in the day beforeyou would not speak—I knew you were not the same.
HENRY LANSDALE (Policeman, V 325). On 28th November last, between 8 and 9 o'clock, I took Tizzard in charge at Mrs. Thome's shop, and received these two fourpenny pieces (produced)—I took her to the station—1s. 9d. in silver and 4d. in copper, good money, was found on her—the sergeant read the charge over to her, and she said, "I know it was bad, I received it from my brother-in-law, who is a soldier of the "12th foot; he is
in the babit of making them, and we all live together at 16, New-street, Walworth, and he and my sister were outside waiting at the time I went into the shop; and if you go to 16, New—street, where we all live, in a cupboard there you will find a spoon used for the purpose for melting metal, and also some other fourpenny pieces wrapped up in some paper"—in consequence of that information, I went to 16, New-street, in company with sergeant Heath—after gaining admittance at the rear of the house, about half an hour after midnight, we proceeded up stairs to the back room—the door was. locked—the two Crawfords were no doubt in bed—the sergeant knocked at the door and the male prisoner answered him and came and opened the door—the two Crawfords were in the room—we told them they were charged with knowingly passing counterfeit coin—both of them said, "We know nothing of it"—we then searched the place, and in a cupboard by the fireside in the same room, Sergeant Heath found a spoon, some plaster of Paris, two pieces of white metal, and a piece of chalk—the sergeant has the spoon—the male prisoner said he did not know that they were there—they were undressed—the woman was sitting up in bed, he was only in his shirt.
Charles Crawford. Q. How could you come up and find me in bed if I let you in? A. There is no doubt you were in bed, by the way you answered—I believe the sergeant has some packages of sweet stuff that were found in your possession.
THOMAS HEATH (Police—sergeant, V 40). I went, in company with the last witness, to New-street, Walworth, and found the two prisoners there—there were no other persons in the house—I found this spoon in a cupboard by the side of the bed, and also two pieces of white metal, some plaster of Paris, and a piece of chalk (produced)—I asked the prisoners how they accounted for their being there, and they said they did not know anything of them; they must have been left in the house by other people—I also found several small packages of sweet stuff, worth about a halfpenny each, and some apples, and things of that kind.
Sarah Crawford. Those sweets were for the child.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . These are two counterfeit fourpenny-pieces, and from one mould; there is a feint impress of part of a mould on this bit of plaster—a spoon is a very common thing to use in making fourpenny-pieces, so as they can make a few at a time—there are some gets which are gets of a fourpenny-piece—these are not electro-plated in the ordinary way—they are just turned out of the mould—this piece of chalk is part of the mould, and the white metal is the same metal as the fourpenny-pieces are made of.
Tizzards's Defence. I found the spoon in the house; some people left it there, and I thought it would be useful, and took it up into my sister's room.
THE COURT considered that there was no evidence against Charles Crawford,
NOT GUILTY .
TIZZARD.— GUILTY .*— Confined Nine Months.
MESSRS. CLERK and UNDERDOWN conducted the Prosecution.
ANN ABBOTT . I am the wife of Thomas Abbott, of 58, Blackfriars-road, a licensed dealer in wine—on Monday evening, 25th November last, about 9 o'clock, the prisoner, and a man named Quebeck, came into my shop together—the prisoner asked for a pint of half-and-half, which came to 3d.—Quebeck
gave a half-a-crown, which I supposed to be good—I gave him 2s. 3d., change—I said "Would you like to sit down? we have a room at the back of our premises"—there were a great many persons at the bar—they said, "No; we have no time now, we are on business; business first, and pleasure afterwards"—both spoke—Quebeck said, "Another time," and the prisoner said he was on business—they drank the half-and-half out of the same pot, and then left—I put the half-crown in the till—my suspicion was aroused, when they had left, and I looked into the till immediately they had gone—there was no other half-crown there—I discovered this one to be counterfeit directly, and threw it into the fire—it melted at once—by the advice of the policeman I found the remains of it in the ashes, put them in a piece of paper, and ultimately gave them to the policeman—the same evening, about 10 o'clock, or it might be ten minutes after, the prisoner came in again alone and asked for a glass of our best old ale—I. recognized him directly—he tendered me a shilling—the ale was 2d.—I put the shilling in the detector and broke it ia three pieces—he asked me for it—I said, "No; I will keep this one; you can take these two pieces"—I said, "You are aware of what you have given me; you are aware it is a bad one?" and it was then that he asked me to let him look—I told him I was not at all disappointed; I quite expected him back; and told him it was not the first time he was there that evening—I said, "You and your friend managed to pass me a bad half-crown; you were here about three quarters of an hour ago"—he said he had no friend, and had never been in the house before—I said, "I knew you the moment you came in; I quite expected what you were going to give me"—he put me down a shilling for the bad one that he had given me—just then Quebeck came in and asked for half a pint of porter—I served him, and waited to see what money be would give me—he gave me a shilling—I said to him, "Well, the last time you were in here this evening you managed to pass a bad half-crown on me, and now your friend has brought me a bad shilling"—that was spoken so that the prisoner could hear it—I accused them together—I put my hand on them—he said he was no friend of his—they denied all knowledge of each other, and said they never saw each other before—the prisoner wanted to leave, and a friend of ours detained him at the bar, and four other young men, strangers to me, kept the other one, and I immediately gave them into custody—I gave the policeman the bad pieces of the shilling, and the pieces of metal that I had picked up.
Prixmer. Q. When I gave you the shilling, did not you say, "You have been here before and passed me a bad half-crown?" A I accused you directly of the bad half-crown—I said, "Your friend and you."
EMMA EKSTEDT . I am the wife of Thomas Ekstedt, who acts as pianist at this house in the Blackfriars-road—I was there on 25th November, and saw the prisoner there about 9 o'clock that evening, in company with a short dark man, named Quebeck, whom I have seen since—they had a pint of half-and-half—I did not see it paid for—about an hour, or an hour aid ten minutes afterwards, the prisoner came in—he then appeared very tipsy—he called for something to drink, I do not know what—Mrs. Abbott said, "I expected you back again," and in the meantime the dark one came in—I am certain they were the same two men whom I saw drinking together about an hour before.
Prisoner. Q. When I gave Mrs. Abbott the money, what did she say to me? A. She said, "I fully expected you back—when you and your friend were here before, you tendered me a bad half—crown, and now you have tendered a bad shilling, for which I shall lock you up"—I did not say that she said you passed the bad half-crown.
(The Witness deposition being read, stated: "I heard Mrs. Abbott say, 'I expected you again, for the last time you were here, you passed a bad half-crown on me, and now you have given a bad shilling.") Witness. They were both together then—Mrs. Abbott said, "You and your friend passed it"—I alluded to two parties when I said, "You"—I was at the end of the bar at the time, not behind it—I had been there since half-past 7 in the evening—I go there every evening, as my husband plays the piano there—the second time you came in by yourself, and appeared very much intoxicated—your friend came in about five minutes afterwards.
JURY. Q. Are you sure that the two, when they first came in together, drank out of the same pot? A. Yes, I am certain they did.
SAMUEL BROOKING (Policeman, M 221). I received charge of the prisoners from Mrs. Abbott on 25th November, about a quarter past 10—she handed me a part of a bad shilling, and some melted metal—Mrs. Abbott said to the prisoner, "You have passed me a bad shilling now, and you and your friend gave me a bad half—crown when you were here before"—he said he had got no friend—I took them both in custody.
Prisoner. Q. When was it that Mrs. Abbott gave you the metal? A. Next morning—I did not say it was when you were given in custody.
COURT. Q. When did you receive the bad shilling? A. That evening—I received the melted metal next morning when I went there—I searched him and found on him a sixpence and fourpence in halfpence—a shilling and a halfpenny were found on Quebeck.
Prisoner. That was the change I had from the good shilling which I paid with afterwards.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is part of a bad shilling, and this is some melted metal which has passed through the fire—it is the same kind of metal as we find coins made of, and judging by its weight, and what it would lose in passing through the fire, I should say it was just the weight used for a half-crown—I have had great experience in coins for many years—a good half-crown would not melt if thrown into the fire—some of this would adhere to the cinders—there is too much metal here for a shilling.
Prisoner's Defence. I was the worse for liquor; I went to the theatre. I had a half-crown, and in the burry and excitement of getting in, I did not think of looking at my two shillings change. As I was going home, I went into this woman's house and called for the ale; I gave her the shilling, and she said it was bad. I begged her pardon, and said I did not know it was bad; she gave me the two pieces of a shilling back. I said, "They are no use to me," and laid them on the counter. She sent for a constable and I said I did not know it was bad; she said I must tell the Magistrate that.
He was further charged with having been before convicted.
EDMUND COSTELLO (Policeman, V 160). I produce a certificate which I got from the clerk of the Court here (Read: Central Criminal Court, February 25, 1861. Jeremiah Me Carthy and William Fellows were convicted of unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin—Confined Nine Months Each)—I was a witness in that case—I had Mc Carthy in custody—he is the person who was then tried and convicted.
GUILTY.**— Four Tears' Penal Servitude.
MR. HORRY conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES PARKER (Policeman, 126). On Monday, 23d September, I was on duty, and saw a light in the lumber-room of Mr. D'Ahemar's house, over the wall—I went in, and saw Williams, who was convicted here in the October Sessions—(See Vol. LIV. p. 771)—I went to the back of the garden, and saw a light burning, which appeared to be a light from a dark lanthorn, as the light occasionally shone across Williams' face—he was apprehended at the time—I considered that there was more than one, but I did not see more than one at a time—as I was at a distance from them I found it would be difficult for me to get close to them—I went and got the assistance of two other constables, one of whom I placed at the front of the house—I and Clarke got over at the back—I assisted Clarke over the wall, and then got over after him—as soon as he had got into the garden he said, "Look out, here they are"—I heard a rush of footsteps from the back of Mr. D'Ahemar's house—he said, "He's gone over the wall; I can't hold him"—I followed over the wall as well as I could, and I could see the shadow of some one running away—I found no one, and then I came back to Clarke, and found-Williams in his custody—I aroused the inmates, and examined the house—I found that an entry had been made in the back of the house, in a room termed a lumber-room—I found the iron bar had been torn out of the socket by forcing the bar of the window—the entrance was large enough for a man to go through—I found that a cupboard had been bored through with a centre-bit, and the room was all in disorder—there had been a light in the room, and there was a bedgown on the fire—I found a child's dress in a watercloset outside, and a number of things strewn about, a child's shirt, and a workbox.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON (with MR. BESLEY). Q. Was it raining? A. Yes, heavily—it was a very dark night, with clouds breaking.
MR. HORRY. Q. If the clouds had been away, was there a moon? A. Yes—they were shifting clouds—there would be a very heavy fall of rain for two or three minutes, and then a shift of the clouds, which would give a very good light—there was a break of the clouds at the time I was on the garden wall.
JAMES CLARKE (Policeman, V 103). On the morning of Monday, 23d September, about 3 o'clock, I got over the wall of 9, Dorset-terrace, with Parker—I saw two men come from the watercloset of that garden—they ran and got over the wall—I saw one over the wall, and the other was half over—I went up, and laid my hand on his leg—he then turned his face to me, and struck at me with something he had in his hand—I had a pretty good sight of his face—I withdrew from him when he struck me, and when he turned back he made a sudden spring into the garden—I had a distinct view of his face—the moon was then shining very brightly—I could not swear what was in his hand—I have since found a knife there, near where we were struggling—I had seen Barnes-several times before that night.
Cross-examined. Q. You knew his name, I suppose? A. No, I did not—it had been raining very hard, and was then, but not so hard—the moon came out from the clouds just at the moment—I saw the other man just coming out of the window, the one that I took in custody—the other one made his escape over the wall just as I was coming over the wall—when I had hold of that man's foot the other one was coming out at the window—I had not then apprehended him—I took him into custody after the transactino at the wall—I saw him come out while I was at the wall—I was three or four yards from him—I heard a rustling noise—I had my eye on him—I should like to nave apprehended the one on the wall—this passed in a very short time, five or six minutes—it was raining, and continued so when the clouds went away.
COURT. Q. You do not mean to say it took five or six minutes from the time you rushed across and took Williams? A. Well, I daresay it was not so long as that; a short time—I had hold of the leg of the man that got away, for about a minute, as much as a minute—I had a good deal of struggling with him—his face was towards the country, to escape, except at the moment he turned round to strike me.
ELIZABETH DOYLE . I am in the service of Mr. D'Ahemar, of 9, Dorsetterrace, Clapham-road—I was called up on the morning of 23d September, about half-past 3—I came down with my master and found it all disorderly and knocked about—the things were taken out of the store room into the garden, and a pane of glass was cut out of the store-room window, which was broken open—I always secure that, and had done so the night before—I am quite sure that all was fastened—we go to bed about 11 o'clock, and did so on that night.
ELIZA INNIFER . I live at 1, Porter-street, Newport-market, and am the wife of Thomas Innifer, a farm labourer—on the Thursday night before 23d September, I saw Barnes with my son, at about half-past 10 or a quarter to 11, or perhaps just on 11; I cannot exactly say—my son is Thomas Innifer—he was convicted of burglary in the house of Mr. D'Ahemar, and had three years—I saw him speaking to my son in More-street, Five-dials, opposite the public-house—it is about five minutes walk from my house—I went to look for my son and took him away.
Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you had seen your son speaking to a great many other people in the Dials on a great many other occasion? A. Yes; but not to that to young man before—I had never seen the prisoner before that—I tried to get my son home.
COURT. Q. Did you hear of your son being taken into custody? A. Yes; on the Monday the police fetched me—I went to the Magistrate at Wandsworth and gave evidence—Barnes was put into the room with another and I picked him out.
WILLIAM BLACKBURN (Policeman, V 251). On Saturday, 2d November, I apprehended the prisoner at Beckwith's, the champion swimmer, Lucretia-street, New-cut, Lambeth—I said, "Barney, I want you for a burglary in the Clapham-road"—he said, "Is that all?"—I said, "Yes, at present I believe" I think he said, "I don't care much about that"—I can hardly recollect—I think those were his words—I said, "You must go with me to the station"—he said, "All right; you will have to give me a cab for it"—I said, "Right, I will"—the prosecutor's house is in St Mary's parish, Lambeth—it is in the Clapham-road.
Witness for the Defence.
MARY PINGRIM . I am a widow, and live at 34, Seacoal-lane—I have two daughters—the prisoner has lodged at my house about three months—I have known him from July—I recollect Sunday, 22d September, his father came to our house to breakfast with him—he went to a running match, and dined and had tea with us, and went out with my daughters and Elizabeth and Harry Raw about 7—about 10 o'clock my daughters came home without him, and in consequence of something I went up the street with my daughter Rosetta, to Johanna-street, at the comer of the New Cut, and fetched him home to my house to supper, and between 11 and 12 he went to bed—I slept in the front room and he in the back—I got up about 7, knocked at the prisoner's door, and told him to get up as it was breakfast time—he said that he was getting up—I then went over to Paddington to work—I was not there when they had breakfast—on the Thursday before this Sunday, Rosetta and
I had been washing all day, and when the prisoner came in we had just finished, and I was drying some clothes before the fire—I asked him if he would have some supper—he said, "Yes," and I fetched a pint o! beer, and he went to bed between 11 and 12.
Cross-examined by MR. HORRY. Q. Are you a lodger in the house? A. Yea; there is a landlody—there were no lodgers in the house but the prisoner and me—the landlady, Mrs. Stephens and her husband, slept on one side, and me and my daughter on the other side, and the prisoner in a little back room; that is where we were when it occurred in the New Cut—I am now living in Seacoal-lane, and lived there when I gave evidence before the Magistrate; that was in November, I suppose, but I cannot say—Barnes was very likely apprehended at the beginning of November, but I cannot say the day of the month—it was Monday morning, and on the following Thursday they went to the police-court—I did not take notice whether it was November or not—the prisoner lodged in our house in Seacoal-lane at the time he was taken; but on 22d September, we were at Short-street, New-cut—we removed from there to Seacoal-lane, on the Wednesday after 22d September—the prisoner lodged with us at both places—we were at Seacoal-lane when the depositions were taken—I gave evidence, and I believe a gentleman took it down—(The deposition being read, stated: "The prisoner lodged at my house in Seacoal-lane about three months")—He lodged with us three months, partly in Seacoal-lane, and partly in the New-out—we removed with us from the New—out to Seacoal-lane on the Wednesday after 22d September—I never saw him before he came to lodge with us—Elizabeth, my eldest daughter, who is an acquaintance of his, brought him to our house—she introduced him to me to wash some shirts for him—I did not enquire into his character, but his father came—he was courting my daughter, and they were' asked in church about a month or six weeks after I knew him—I had to pay for the asking—I went with them—I was going to let my daughter marry him, I never saw anything wrong against the young man—my daughter introduced him to lodge at my house; he said that he wanted a lodging—that was three or four times after I had seen him—his father came to us in Short-street, and paid for his lodging, saying, that he should not want anything as long as he had got a hand to work—the prisoner did nothing; his father supported him, and was going to put him into a baker's business as soon as he could—I knew where his father lived—I do not know why he did not live with this kind father; that did not concern me—I recollect Sunday, 2d September—Barnes was with us all day—he left about 6, and returned at 10—my daughters were both with him, and a young man named Raw, who lives in Tower-street, and works in the City—he is not here—he was not before the Magistrate—I did not go to the Spanish Patriots at all; I do not drink anything, and do not frequent public-houses, nor does my daughter, she does not care for drink any more than I do—I mean to say that I did not fetch the prisoner from the Spanish Patriots—I met him outside the door—a person named Hillier was not there—I know nobody of that name—the prisoner was with us up to the time he was taken; but he was not taken at our house—I did not miss him for any nights from Seacoal-lane—he never was away all night—he was safe at home and in bed every night, and he was no more out that night than I was—I do not know that he frequented any of the houses in the Cut, and I know he is as innocent of what he is charged with as I am here—it might be a little more or a little less than 10 o'clock when I brought him home, but it was 10 when we went
into the room—I got up about 7 in the morning, and lit the fire—some one slept with him in his room—we used to lock the street door, and bolt it—the landlady did it if she was up late; and if I was up last I did it—the prisoner was never out late; if he had been he must have knocked us up, as there is only one large key to the door—I never saw a girl named Hillier, but once—she did not come to my house and threaten and annoy the prisoner; but they have met her out.
MR. BESLEY. Q. Did you leave Short-street before quarter-day? A. On the Wednesday after the 22d—I do not know when quarter-day is; but our landlady left, and that was the reason we moved to Seacoal-lane—the prisoner's father told me that, if his son got settled, he would put him into a baker's business, and he could make ginger beer, and get a very good living—the father came three or four times a week to where his son was lodging—although it is a mistake to say that the prisoner lodged with me three months in Seacoal-lane; he lodged with me three months, partly in Short-street, and partly in Seacoal-lane.
COURT. Q. Do you know when the prisoner was taken up? A. Yes; it was on a Saturday evening—I cannot say when, because I did not pay particular attention—I had no reason before he was taken up, for trying to remember what became of him on Sunday, 22d September; but I recollect that was the day, because his father came that day, and because they went to a running match—I know the running match was on the 22d., because I recollect it sowell—I had no reason for trying to recollect the day till after he was taken up; but his father came on that day, and we were talking things over, or else I should not have remembered it—I know it was not on the 15th—he and my daughter went out together, and they got into a row at the Bell, in Mason-street.
JAMES JOHN BARNES . I am the prisoner's father, and live at 4, Wandsworth-road, Vauxhall—I am a bootmaker, and also carry on the baking business—I have lived there twelve months this Christmas, and eleven years in the neighbourhood—on Sunday, 22d September, I went to Mrs. Pingrim's with my son—that was the first time I had been there—I met my son at 7 o'clock that morning, and went home to breakfast with him—I do not know how long he had been out when I met him—I was out for a walk—stopped there about an hour—he complained of having a sore foot, his corn troubled him—during the day, I went down the lane with him, and bought a pair of boots, and a pair of shoes—I did not go anywhere else with him—I left him at home when I went out—I was out about an hour and a half—I dined with him, and stayed there and had tea—I left at a little after 6 in the evening—Elizabeth and Rosetta Pingrim and Henry Raw went with me—I went as far as the Victoria theatre with my son—bade him good night and left him at a quarter or twenty minutes after 6—that was all I saw of him—I do not know how long he had been living at Mrs. Pingrim's—that was the first time I had seen her—I knew that he was living somewhere about the Cut, but did not know where—I told Mrs. Pingrim, whatever she got for him I would pay for, but not before that—I knew that he was keeping company with her daughter—he brought her to my place a fortnight before—I told Mrs. Pingrim that I would put him into business.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you go to any running match? A. No; but that was the cause of my meeting my son over on the other side of the water—my son's age is about twenty-five—he told me that he was going to get married—I did not ask him anything about the girl's parents—that was the cause I went down to breakfast with him to see the family—I was supporting
him, and had done so for three or four months—I always have supported him—when he has wanted anything he has come to me, and I have given it to him—he is no particular business—he has been working at envelope stamping—how do I know what he was doing six months before this—the baking business is the selling of bread—I retail bread; I do not bake—somebody else makes it—I am a bootmaker—I was going to give up the bread selling business to him—have paid for his board and lodging while be has been at Mrs. Pingrim's—I have a family besides him—I have nine altogether; six are at home—the prisoner is not the eldest.
COURT. Q. How do you know that it was 22d September? A. By making a pair of boots for him—on Thursday, the 19th, I went to get the leather, and he came for the boots on the Friday—I had them finished for him—that was not the Sunday after I made the boots—I did not then know where he was lodging—he told me that he was going to a running match when he called for the boots—I could prove that it was the 19th that I had bought the leather, by the person where I bought it—the policeman who took the boots off my son's feet came to me and asked me to send him a pair of boots—I said, "My son has got one pair which I made," and I described them.
COURT. Q. You said that you made them for him, and yet you say you can call the man you bought them of? A. No; those were two pair of girl's boots, but I bought the tops of his boots and made the bottoms—I know that it was on the 19th by looking at the almanack—I went back and saw that the day I bought them was Thursday, 19th September, and it w as the 22d that 1 saw him; Sunday morning—I did not know what my son was charged with until I went to Wands worth.
MR. RIETON. Q. Have you worked for Price's factory? A. For most of the people in the factory—the evidence was taken down by an attorney before I went before the Magistrate—after my attention was called to the day, I looked at the almanack and found that it was on the 19th I supplied him with boots, and on the Sunday following I had breakfast with him.
MR. HORRY. Q. From whom did you hear that your son was in custody? A. From the policeman.
ELIZABETH PINGRIM . I am the daughter of Mrs. Pingrim—I have known the prisoner some time—I am engaged to be married to him on Sunday evening, 22d September—I went out with him—I know it was the 22d., by his father being there, and his two sisters came there to tea—I went with them to the Sun public-house, Westminster-road, to hear the bells—we stayed there about two hours—I then went home to my mother's with my sister and another young woman, leaving the prisoner there, between 9 and 10 o'clock—about 11 o'clock the prisoner came hack with my mother to our house—we had returned home without the prisoner because there was a row—I went home and said, "There is a row in the Sun, will you go and see that he does not get into trouble?" and they went with this young woman, and brought him hack about 11—I went to bed at a little past 11, and the prisoner went into the next room to bed—my mother pulled off his boots and threw them under the table, and next morning my mother called him—she said, "Bill, your breakfast is ready"—and I heard him answer, "All right"
Cross-examined. Q. How long have you known him? A Five months up to the present time—I first saw him in the Cut in the street, he was a stranger to me up to that time—I cannot tell you how soon after that I took him home to my mother's—he was not long in my company the first
night I met him, because I was in service, and was obliged to go to my place—he did not see me home—I with him for about an hour—it was weeks after that that I took him to my mother's—he has only been living there three months—I do not know how soon marriage was proposed—I heard of the banns being put up, that was about a month or six weeks after we first met, as near as I can guess—he told me that he could not lodge at home, and asked me if I knew a respectable lodging—I said, "My mother is taking in respectable lodgers"—I will not answer whether I asked him anything about his family, or why he could not lodge at home; why should I be cross questioned when I have come here to speak the truth?
COURT. Q. Do you object to say whether you asked him who his family were? A. I did not ask him—he took me to his father's, and I saw his two youngest sisters, but not his father or his mother—I never saw his father or mother until the father came to my mother's house on the 22d.
MR. HORRY. Q. How soon after you met him was that? A. I cannot tell you, I have not studied into these things—I had never been at this public-house before—we went there for amusement—there are bells there on Sunday evening—my sister, and a young man named Harry Raw, and his father and two sisters; we all left my mother's at 6 o'clock—I heard on the Saturday evening that the prisoner was in custody—I had to meet him at a quarter before 10 that evening—I heard it from the gentleman at the "Good Intent" public-house, in Lucretia-street—I do not know the person who brought the news, we went to meet him there, and the gentleman told me.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Were you asked in church? A. Yes; and my mother told the policeman that it was at Old Lambeth church—it was about a month afterwards he took me to his father's house—I was in service at the time, at a gentleman's office, 5, Parliament-street, Westminster-road,—when he took me to his father's house he had spoken to me about marrying me three weeks before—I did not ask to go to his father's, he offered to take me there—I only saw his two sisters—I have been there since he was taken up, and seen his father and mother—I am quite sure that the first time I ever saw his father was on Sunday, the 22d—I saw the prisoner go to bed on that night.
COURT. Q. Did you see the father at your mother's house after the 22d? A. Yes; he came afterwards to see his son a great many times—he came to the lodgings in Short-street about three times before he left—I cannot tell you when we left Short-street—I am sure the father came there three times after the 22d—I cannot remember any of the other days—I cannot remember whether he went to the lodgings in Short-street at all after that—he came to where we live now, but about the other I am not sure—I fix the 22d and not the 15th, because he went to a running match, and my brother was there.
MR. RIBTON. Q. When he was apprehended I suppose you were spoken to? A. Yes; and went and gave evidence to a solicitor.
ROSETTA PINGRIM . I am the sister of the last witness—I recollect the Sunday when the prisoner and his father were at our house—it was the 22d of September—he was there the whole day—my sister, and I, and the prisoner, left home about 6 o'clock to go to a public-house to hear some bells rung—while we were there, a quarrel took place—a woman who was there was jealous of my sister—my sister and I went home, and my mother and I went back to the public-house, and returned home with the prisoner—we got home about 10, or it might be later—I remember the prisoner going to
bed; I was down stairs talking to a young man: I went back and he was in bed—bed I am not going to be married—I saw him next morning about 8 o'clock, when he came and bad his breakfast—I fix the date on 22d because my brother was dining with us, and in the morning he went to a running match—the prisoner went to the match, and he and his father came home and breakfasted with us—I cannot say how soon we left those lodgings—I think it is betwen three and four months—this happened in Short-street—we remained there, I think, about three weeks afterwards, we then removed to 34, Seacoal-lane—I cannot tell you exactly whether it was the next week that we left—I work at Mr. Bramin's, in Whitechapel—I was at home on Sunday, 22d—I had left service about three weeks before—I am out of service now—I do not remember how soon after the 22d we left—that was the first time I had seen the prisoner's father, but he called at the house in Short-street two or three times afterwards.
Cross-examined. Q. Two or three times in the course of the week or fortnight? A. In the course of the time we were living there, and when we went to Stacoal-lane the prisoner went with us.
NOT GUILTY .
REID PLEADED GUILTY .
MESSRS. CLERK and UNDERWOOD conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES BRANNAN . On 11th December, from information I received, I went about 1 o'clock in the day, to 21, Mint-street, Southwark—the street-door was open—I proceeded upstairs to the second floor front room, and saw Davis coming out of the room—I stopped her on the landing—she held in her left—hand a florin, in this cloth, rubbing it, I snatched them from her hand, and another florin dropped, I believe, from the cloth—she was then seized by Sergeant Elliott—the florin was wet and partially covered with sand, and her hands were wet and covered with sand—I went into the room and saw Reid in his shirt sleeves at a table—he slipped from it, and threw away a large quantity of counterfeit coin, florins, half-crowns, and sixpences, and went towards the window—I pushed him away from it, and he was seized by Sergeant Brannan—a struggle ensued, and he was thrown on a bed in the room, and a large quantity of counterfeit coin fell from him—I said, "Charcoal, your time has not expired, before you commence your mischievous practices again"—he said, "All right, Mr. Brannan, you don't know all"—I picked Hip fourteen florins, ten half-crowns, sixteen shillings, and, I think, thirteen sixpences, all of which I believe to be counterfeit—I went towards a chair' which stood by the window, and found this galvanic battery in full work, with eight counterfeit shillings on the wire, as they now appear, undergoing the process of electroplating—there was a saucer on the table containing solution, which I believe to be cyanide of silver; several saucers containing sand and water, and a file with white metal in its teeth—in a cupboard was a small portion of plaster of Paris, in powder—we proceeded downstairs, with Inspector More and several officers, searched the cellars and the back kitchen, and in the copper flue I found five plaster of Paris moulds; one treble one, for two shillings and a sixpence; one half-crown one; a double mould for shillings, one for florins, and a double mould for sixpences—I returned to the room, and placed them on the table before Reid, who said, "You cannot bring them home to me, Mr. Brannan; you cannot prove I put them there"—I said, "That will be a matter of inference after they are compared with the
coins "coins"—Mr. Webster has compared them in my presence, and they appear to have been made from those moulds.
JAMES BRANNAN , Junior (Police-sergeant, G 21). I accompanied the other officers—Davis had a mug and some florins, and she dropped some from her pocket after she was secured—her hands were wet with sand and water.
ARTHUR ELLIOTT (Police-sergeant, G 13). I went with the other officers to Mint-street—Davis was at the door when we went up—I pushed her back, and as I was pushing her into the room she put her hand into her dress pocket and a quantity of counterfeit money fell—I picked up eight florins, one half-crown, and four sixpences, which fell from her hand.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . The first of these moulds is a treble one, for making two shillings and a sixpence; but I find no bad money from that—the next is a double mould for two shillings, one of 1820, George the Third—from that mould here are eleven counterfeit shillings, six from that of 1820, and five from that of 1845—the next is a mould for half-a-crown of George the Third, 1817—it contains the obverse and reverse sides—here are ten half-crowns cast from it—the next is a mould for a florin of 1853—here are twelve counterfeit florins cast from it—the next is a double mould for six-pences of 1839 and 1854—here are thirteen sixpences, seven from the 1854 mould, and six from that of 1839—here are two florins of 1853, which ware taken from Davis—they are from the same mould as the other twelve—Elliott produced four counterfeit sixpences which the woman dropped—three of those are from the mould of 1834, and the others from that of 1859—he also produced eight florins; they are all counterfeit, and from the mould of 1853, the same as the twelve others—here is a half-crown, which has been struck in brass from a die—some of these came out a few years ago, but I have not seen any since—here is a battery with some of the coins in it, which are undergoing the process of silvering, and here is everything necessary for coining.
Davis' Defence. I had no coins in my hand.
DAVIS— NOT GUILTY .
MR. BRANNAN stated that Reid had been in custody on a former occasion, and sentenced to six years' penal servitude.
REID— Fifteen Years' Penal Servitude.
MR. CLARKE conducted the Prosecution.
ANN ABBOTT . My husband keeps a public-house in Blackfriars-road—the prisoner Quebeck is the man who came with M'Carthy on the night of 25th November—a pint of half-and-half was called for—Quebeck gave me a half-crown—I gave him the change, and put the money in the till—in consequence of something which was said to me, I took it out again and threw it on the fire—it immediately melted through the bars—I had invited the two prisoners to go and sit down in the concert-room—the prisoner said, "No, we are on business; some other night"—they drank the half-and-half and left—about half an hour afterwards, M'Carthy came in and gave his name at Driscoll—he had a glass of ale, and I said, "Your friend came in here about an hour since, and passed me a bad half-crown"—while I was talking Quebeck came in, called for half a pint of porter, and gave me a penny—I said, "The last time you were here this evening you managed to pass me a bad half-crown, and now your friend has come and passed a bad shilling"—
M'Carthy said, "I have not been in before, and I have no friend;" and Quebeck said, "He is no friend of mine; I never saw him before"—I gave them both in custody.
Quebeck. Q. Who called for the liquor when you took the half-crown? A. You were both together—I sent our potman to look after you, and described your appearance—the half-crown dissolved in the fire—I had cautioned my child to be very careful: I said, "I have taken a bad half-crown, be careful; your father must know nothing of it"—the other man gave me the shilling about three quarters of an hour afterwards—the only other person serving at the bar was my child—I put the half-crown in the fire to avoid words with my husband—I do not know whether any coals were put on—it was a parlour fire, an open grate with hobs—I found the shilling out quickly, as I quite expected him to give me some money—he had a good shilling ready after he dropped the bad shilling on the counter—I produced a bit of metal, the next morning, which I suppose to be the produce of the half-crown, as it melted immediately and ran down—I did not see it run through on to the hearth—my daughter was not there at the time—she is sixteen or seventeen years of age.
EMMA EKSTEDT . I was at this house on the evening of 25th November—the prisoner is the man I saw with McCarthy that evening—I swear to him—he is the man who drank the half-and-half, and who was present during the discussion between the prisoner and Mrs. Abbott about the bad shilling.
Prisoner. Q. What time did we come in and give this half-crown? A. About quarter-past 9—I cannot say who gave the half-crown, I was four yards off and did not see it at all—I noticed you in that crowd of people, because Mrs. Abbott asked you to walk in, and you said that you were on business, "business first and pleasure afterwards"—I recognised you in the dock on Wednesday morning, there can be no mistake about you—I am married—I was talking to Mrs. Abbott—she was serving and was rather busy, as there were, perhaps, six or seven persons standing in front of the bar.
SAMUEL BOOKING (Policeman, M 221). I went to Mrs. Abbotts', and the prisoner and McCarthy were given in custody to my brother constable—Mrs. Abbott gave me these broken pieces of a shilling, and on the following morning she gave me some pieces of melted metal—I saw the prisoner searched, and 1s. 0 1/2 d. in copper found on him—when I took him he was charged with having been there before that night, and he said, "I have not been in the house before, and I know nothing of the other man."
WILLIAM WESTER . This is the fragment of a bad shilling, and here is some molten metal, of precisely the same kind as the bad money is made of, and it is the same quantity as you would expect to find if a bad half-crown was thrown into a fire, allowing for what would adhere to the cinders and coals—it requires a very little time to melt these coins, but you cannot melt a silver coin.
Prisoner. With a little aquafortis upon it a common shilling would melt at once. Witness. Then it must be a very bad one, and there never was such a thing known—it is a great mistake.
Prisoner's Defence, A little bit of metal might have been in the coals or in a saucepan, or anything else. The woman says I was in her house at 9 o'clock, whereas I can produce a young man from Reading to prove I was in his company from 6 o'clock to 10 o'clock.
WILLIAM READY . I am a gas-lighter, employed by the Enfield Gas Company, and live at 39, Little George street, Hampstead-road—I know Quebeck—I saw him on Monday evening, 25th November, at the corner of Oakley-street, Lambeth, near the Victoria theatre—it must have been about 6 o'clock, because I had done my lighting—my sister lives at 10, Thomas-street, which leads into Oakley-street—she was not at home, and I met my brother-in-law, who is at work at the Exhibition—we went to a public-house, and met the prisoner there—I do not know the name of it, as I am a stranger there—we had several drops of drink together—I left at 10, or half-past, and left him there with my brother-in-law—I must have left at 10, because I reached home at 11, when St James'-chapel was striking, and it took me an hour to walk—the prisoner—was there from 6 till the time I left—I do not remember his leaving my company—he may have done so—I cannot swear that he did not, because he might have gone out while I was talking to my brother, but I do not remember his leaving—I would swear he was there from 6 till half-past 9—I do not remember after 9, because I had several drops of drink—I got rather elevated at 9 o'clock; I might be deceived in the time—I will swear he remained with me three hours, from 6 to 9, because my brother-in-law said to me, "Margaret will be home now"—he said she could not see the secretary of the club she went to, before half-past 8, and I must have left at 10 to have reached home at 11—I recollect the prisoner being there till 9, because I asked my brother-in-law if I had a chance of seeing Margaret, who is my sister, and I said I would not wait—I did not go then—we stopped and had a drop more drink, and I went on the following day—I will swear the prisoner was in my company from 6 to 9 without leaving—he did not go away at 9, but I got a little drop of drink then—I will swear I left him there in company with my brother-in-law at 10o'clock.
Cross-examined by MR. CLERK. Q. How long have you borne the name of William Ready? A. Thirty years—I have never gone by any other—I was in the army in my mother's maiden name, as William Long—I left the army in 1856—I enlisted in that name because I was a married man—I did not run away from my wife—I enlisted in the militia at Hampstead—I was in the army thirteen months—I cannot say positively how long I have known the prisoner, but some year—I cannot say whether he has always borne that name—I cannot say whether I saw him in May last, as I very seldom go over there—I light gas in Euston-road and Osnaburgh-street, and round in that district—we commence at a quarter-past 3 and finish at half-past 4—I have been over to Oakley-street times out of number, because my sister lives in Thomas—street and I go to see her—she does not go to the public-house in Oakley-street—when I met my brother-in-law I said, "is Margaret at home?" he said, "No; she has gone down to my club, and as site is not at home, we will go up to the corner and have a drop, and wait for her to come in—his name is James Dixon—I do not think he is here—I do not know whether the house has any sign—I do not know how far Oakley street is from the Blackfriars-road—I always go by Waterloo-bridge or Westminster-road, and sometimes I take the twopenny 'bus—I do not know where the Blackfriars-road it, but I could find out—I have never been tried in this Court or in a police-court—I have been fifteen years employed in the Enfield Gas Company—I was obliged to give it up when I was in the militia, but my superintendents reinstated me, and I am in their employment now—when I was in the public-house, I was in the front bar—I was there from 6 till
9—I sat down sometimes—we were smoking and drinking—my brother-in-law was there, and a man named Mosely, who left to go to the Exhibition—he paid for some stout—Mrquote Carthy was not there—I never saw him before, to my recollection—this is the first time I have ever seen him in my life—I spent a shilling—Quebeck paid for a pot of stout, and my. brother-in-law paid for several drops—I had seen Quebeck three months before this in the New-cut on a Sunday morning—I did not go to his house in Oakley-street then—he said he was very sorry the public-house was not open—I knew him by the name of "John"—I did know his surname before to-day—I always called him "Jack," and he called me "Bill"—I made his acquaintance in Lambeth, being with my brother-in-law, and I bought a waistcoat of him very cheap one night, and paid him half-a-crown for it—he is a tailor, and makes waistcoats out of old clothes.
COURT. Q. When did you hear that he was in custody? A. Next day a party told me that Jack the tailor was in custody—it was a man who drinks in my brother-in-law's company—he said, "Jack the tailor is taken and locked up"—I said, "What for? I"—he said, For passing a bad shilling or something"—I said, "I was drinking with him last night"—he said, "It was last night he was taken"—I did go before the Magistrate—I did not take any notice till my brother-in-law told me he was fully committed for trial, and I said, "I will go and see him"—I went and saw him, and came here—he told me that he was locked up wrongfully—I said, "It is a great pity for anybody to be locked up innocently"—he said, "The person that locked me up swears I was in the house at half-past 8"—I said, "How could you be there and in my company too—he said, "Will you be so kind as to get your lighting done and come down for me?" and so I did; I have sent a porter to do my lighting for me, and have come here.
JURY to ANN ABBOTT. Q. You swear that this man gave the half-crown, and not the other?A. Yes, he dropped it from amongst some coppers which he had, he was leaning on the bar—I did not mention about receiving the half-crown till the other party came in, and did not mention it until then to any one but my daughter—I spoke to her directly; I did not wish the father to know—from the time I took the half-crown to the time I mentioned it to my daughter, was about three minutes—from the time I put the half-crown in the till to the time I took it out, nobody put any money in the till or had access to it.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
Before Mr. Recorder.
AUGUSTA WELOH . I am the wife of James Welch, of 14, Albert-square—I know the prisoner; I recollect his being married about eighteen years ago—I was not present—my step-sister was bridesmaid—she is dead—the prisoner's wife is alive, I saw her this morning—I know they lived together up to about twelve months ago.
Cross-examined by MR. WOOD. Q. When were they married. A. In 1842 or 1843-1 only know it from my step-Sister, who told me that she was bridesmaid; the gentleman who gave the bride away is also dead—I know that they lived together during the time I mention—they visited me down to eighteen months ago—I saw the prisoner about twelve months ago—he always spoke of his wife in the highest manner.
became chargeable to the parish of Camberwell— he said, "I have not deserted them; I sent them money at different times, I sent her a post-office order last Thursday for 10s.—I brought him to London, and he was examined in his wife's presence—I heard him say, that he was willing to take her home and live with her as he had done before—I produce a certificate of the marriage from the register's office. (This certified the marriage of Henry Surman Hammond and Charlotte Welch, bachelor and spinster, by banns, in the year, 1843)—I also produce another certificate, (This certified the marriage of Henry Hammond and Annie Sanden, bachelor and widow, by banns, at Saint Gerogerquote s, Battersea, on 30th October, 1860.
THOMAS KIRK . I am clerk at Saint Georgerquote s, Battersea—I recollect the prisoner being married there on 30th October, 1860, to Annie Sanden—I acted as clerk—I have seen Charlotte Hammond—she was not the person he was married to then.
MR. WOOD Submitted that the case not proved, as it was not shown who the person was, who was married according to the first certificate.
THE COURT considered that there was a case for the jury, if only upon the prisoner's admission when he was charged with deserting his wife.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the prosecutrix.— Confined Six Months.
ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, JANUARY 6TH, 1862.