CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT
THIRD SESSION, HELD JANUARY 7TH, 1861.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND BY
JAMES DROVER BARNETT
Short-hand Writers to the Court,
ROLLS CHAMBERS, No. 89, CHANCERY LANE.
THE POINTS OF LAW AND PRACTICE,
REVISED AND EDITED BY
ROBERT ORRIDGE, ESQ.
OF THE MIDDLE TEMPLE, BARRISTER-AT-LAW.
BUTTERWORTHS, 7, FLEET STREET,
Law publishers to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.
On the Queen's Commission of the Peace,
OYER AND TERMINER AND GAOL DELIVERY,
The City of London,
AND GAOL DELIVERY FOR THE
COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX, AND THE PARTS OF THE COUNTIES OF ESSEX, KENT, AND SURREY, WITHIN THE JURISDICTION
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT,
Held on Monday, January 7th, 1861, and following days.
BEFORE the Right Hon. WILLIAM CUBITT, Esq. M.P. Lord Mayor of the City of London; Sir Colin Blackburn, Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench; Sir Henry Singer Keating, Knt., one of the Justices of her Majesty's Court of Common Pleas; William Taylor Copeland, Esq., M.P.; Sir James Duke, Bart., M.P.; Sir Francis Graham Moon, Bart, F. S. A.; and Sir Robert Walter Carden, Knt., Aldermen of the said City; Russell Gurney, Esq. Q.C. Recorder of the said City; Warren Stormes Hale, Esq.; John Joseph Mechi, Esq.; Edward Conder, Esq.; and James Lawrence, Esq., Aldermen of the said City; and Thomas Chambers, Esq. Common Serjeant of the said City; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.
JAMES ABBISS, Esq. Ald.
ANDREW LUSK, Esq.
OCTAVIUS TRYON CHAPMAN EAGLETON, Esq.
CHARLES GAMMON, Esq.
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
CUBITT, MAYOR. THIRD SESSION.
A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.
LONDON AND MIDDLESEX CASES.
OLD COURT.—Monday, January 7th, 1861.
PRESENT.—The Right Hon. the LORD MAYOR; SIR JAMES DUKE, Bart. M.P. Ald.; SIR FRANCIS GRAHAM MOON, Bart Ald.; SIR ROBERT WALTER GARDEN, Knt Ald.; MR. RECORDER; and Mr. Ald. JAMES LAWRENCE.
Before Mr. Recorder.
The prisoner being a foreigner, had the evidence explained to him by an interpreter.
GEORGE FITCH . I am a watchmaker and jeweller, of 5, Barbican—on Saturday afternoon, 15th December, the prisoner came into my shop—I did not know him before—he wanted to look at some signet rings; he said he wanted three of a sort—I showed him a tray—he said there were none there to suit him—I showed him four more by themselves—he selected one from them—he then said he thought there were some more in the window that he could select from—I took out four more for him, and there was another he thought would suit him—he then got me to look out another from the window, and while my back was turned to get the ring, he abstracted one of the others—I did not see him do it, but when I came back from the window, I looked at the rings that had been placed before him, and one was missing—I immediately asked him for it—he said he knew nothing at all about it, that he was a respectable man, and I was quite mistaken—I said I knew I was not mistaken, I was as positive that he had got one as possible, for there was one missing, and unless I knew more of him than I did, I Should give him into custody for stealing it, which I did; but during the interim when I went to the door to look for a policeman, he tried to throw me down and get away, but I held him tight till a policeman came—there was a lady in the shop at the time, who had come in before the prisoner—she was waiting for a watch, I was altering the regulator for her, but I left her to serve him—after the prisoner was taken away, I searched the shop and in a corner I found these two brass rings, imitation wedding-rings, and these pieces of paper all bitten and torn up—I put them together, and it is, a bill of some goods to the amount of 38l.—the missing ring was not found
—I think he swallowed it, for he had a box of oil capsules in his pocket; or else in the struggle to get away, he must have thrown it away—I am quite satisfied that there was a ring missing—the value of it was 12s.—the prisoner spoke English quite well.
Prisoner. Q. Do you mean to say that I threw you down? A. Yes; I am lame—a finger would not knock me down; I had hold of the doorpost, and I held tight hold of you—the woman who was in the shop had not the same opportunity of stealing the ring as you had—she came in before you, and waited after you were gone—I knew her well; she is a respectable person in the neighbourhood—she was not as near the rings as you were she could have reached them if she had liked—the woman was not standing nearer to the rings than you were—I was on the right, then the woman, and then you—the rings were nearer to you, especially the last lot that I took out of the window—I did not take the ring up in my hands and put it in the window, or anywhere else.
RICHARD LOUGHBORO (City-policeman, 284). I was called to the shop of last witness, and took the prisoner into custody—I searched him and found on him two glass saucers, a brass pin which he wore in his scarf, this brass Albert chain which he wore in his waistcoat, and two brass imitation wedding-rings (produced)—this bill for 38l. was partly destroyed by the prisoner—I did not find any money on him—he gave me his address, No. 7, Wood-street, Tabernacle-walk, Finsbury—I put it down at the time—there is such a place.
The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he was employed to purchase some rings to send to Germany as a present, and that he went to the prosecutor's shop for that purpose, but denied stealing the ring, or making any attempt to escape.
NOT GUILTY .
THOMAS EMBERSON . I am a jeweller at 31, Fore-street—on 17th November, between 5 and 6 in the evening, the prisoner came into my shop—he said he wanted some fancy rings for presents—he selected a lot of jewellery and fancy goods to the amount of 11l. or 12l.—I put the invoice before him, and asked him if he was going to pay for them—he said, "I should wish you to send them home"—I said, "I will do so," but I had my suspicions—I accompanied him myself—when we got to the corner of Cripplegate-buildings, in Fore-street, he said, "I want to make a little call; if you will go on to my house, I will meet you in about ten minutes"—I said, "What is your name?"—he said, "Brown"—he told me his house was 21, Chiswell-street—I went there and inquired and gave a description of him—he did not come back there—I immediately hurried home and was told something—I then looked over a card of wedding-rings which had been shown to the prisoner in my absence, and I found on the card a gilt wedding-ring substituted for a gold one—this is it (produced)—I had shown some to him among the goods and jewellery selected—this card was shown to him—I am quite positive the prisoner is the man.
COURT. Q. How long was he in the shop with you? A. More than an hour, and then I walked with him some little way before we got to Cripplegate-buildings.
AMELIA DARTON . I am shopwoman to the last witness—I remember the prisoner coming in on the 17th November—I am quite sure it was the prisoner—he was in the shop an hour, I should think—I was there the whole time—I saw him go out with Mr. Emberson—the prisoner returned, it might be five minutes afterwards, alone, and said he wished the wedding-ring changed as it was not large enough for the lady—I then showed him a card of wedding-rings—he tried on two—he returned me the ring—I thought it was one of those that had been on the card—he then went away—Mr. Emberson returned about ten minutes afterwards—the card was looked at and I then found this ring—it is a brass ring, gilt—the value of the gold ring is 14s. 6d.
Prisoner. Q. Are you positive as to my identity? A. Quite so—I am certain I make no mistake—I should say you were dressed as you are now.
Prisoner. Q. Do you know that those rings are used for curtains in Germany and cost about a halfpenny a piece? A. I can't say, I have not been there.
Prisoner's Defence. I can swear a dozen oaths that I am not the man, and that these persons have committed a great error in saying I am the man. If I am about to get a punishment, I hope it will be a moderate and a lenient one, because, if that is so, I shall on my release immediately quit England and go back to my own country.
RICHARD TANNER , a Serjeant in the Metropolitan Police, produced a certifycate of a former conviction of the prisoner at the Middlesex Sessions in May, 1859, for stealing a ring, when he was sentenced to twelve months' imprisonment—he also stated that he had been twice in custody for other offences.
GUILTY .— Confined Two Years.
MESSRS. GIFPARD and H. MATTHEWS conducted the Prosecution.
EDENEZER PYE SMITH . I am a surgeon, of 7, Billiter-square, and am the medical attendant of Mr. Arthur Bennett, of Wells-street, Hackney, who has been ill for some time—he had a very severe illness fourteen years ago, and soon after this occurrence he became very ill, and has been so about two months—it is a tendency to softening of the brain—I ordered him to leave London, and he has been away six or seven weeks, during which time I have only seen him once, and that was on Friday last—he was not then in a condition to come up here and give evidence—the effort of giving evidence would be dangerous to his life, and I, as his medical attendant have forbidden it.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Where is he? A. At St. Albans—he went there, I believe, about six weeks ago, to my recollection—he walks out and I dare say he can do so every day—he does not go out of St. Albans at all—he could go to the train and by the train, and it would not much hurt him to go by a cab—I mean to say that he is unable to travel and give evidence at this Court—he is not able to give evidence—I think it would be prejudicial to his health, and he is unable to give evidence—he could state in a whisper what he stated before the Magistrate—I think he is so ill and nervous that if vigorously cross-examined he would soon become confused, and could hardly be depended upon; he is
forgetful—I saw him last on Friday, and thought him worse than he was a month or three weeks go—I saw him just before last Session for the purpose of judging whether he could come and give evidence—he is wore now than he was then.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Is he attended by a surgeon at St. Albans? A. No: he is under my directions and I have seen him twice—he corresponds with me on account of his health, but not so often as two or three times a week—I have received, I believe, three letters from him since he has been at St. Albans.
MR. MATTEWS. Q. Has he got his wife with him? A. Yes, she acts as his nurse—I think the softening of his brain is slowly progressing, and do not see any prospect of his throwing it off—he could only make himself heard in Court in a whisper.
COURT. Q. Travelling does not affect him, does it? A. Well, I think it might affect him—he is not too ill to travel: he can journey, but he cannot complete the object of that journey—he could certainly travel from St. Albans here, without material injury to his health.
MR. MATTHEWS. Q. Would travelling with the knowledge that he was coming to give evidence, be injurious to him? A. I think it would.
MR. GIPPARD proposed to read the deposition of Arthur Bennett, to which MESSRS. SLEIGH and METCALFE objected, the words of the statute being "dead, ill, or unable to travel," neither of which words applied to the present case. (See Reg. v. Cockburn, 1st Dearsley's Crown Cases.) MR. GIFFARD thought although the witness might be able to travel, there was no reason to hope that he would be able to give evidence if here, and therefore that his deposition was admissible, specially as he was not likely to get any better. MR. MATTHEWS (on the same side) submitted that a man might be able to be removed in a helpless state for the benefit of his health, yet he might not be able to travel to give evidence; here the medical man deposed that there was no hope of the prosecutor getting better, all chance of his being able to give evidence was shut out, and his deposition became admissible.
MR. METCALFE to the witness. Q. Have you prescribed walking for him? A. No, but he walks out, he takes short walks—a short walk, deliberately and slowly, does him no harm.
MR. METCALFE further contended that the statute had always been construed very strictly, because a person might in the absence of attorney or counsel muck a statement prejudicial to the life of a prisoner and then take himself of, is order to avoid a cross-examination. THE COURT would not refuse to receive the evidence but would reserve the point if necessary.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Were there two examinations? A. Three—Mr. Bennett was examined on each hearing—I am not sure whether I was present when he signed his deposition.
Cross-examined by MR. SLRIGH. Q. Were you present during the whole of the three examinations? A. Yes, the whole time—the evidence on each occasion was taken down in a note-book, and then copied into the deposition paper—I saw the clerk copying from the original note-book—I did not compare the depositions with the notes in the book—it was read over to Mr. Bennett, and he was asked whether it was correct.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Is that so, because you said you were not certain whether you were present A. Yes, I was—I was there after it was completed on the third occasion.
COURT. Q. Was Mr. Bennett sworn? A. Yes, on each occasion. Jambs Tyler. I believe the signature to this deposition to be Mr. Arthur Bennett's writing—I have seen him write many times—I was a witness at the police-court when he was examined, and I think I saw him sign it.
The deposition was then read at follow:—ARTHUR BENNEYY says: I am a builder, and reside at Hackney. On Wednesday, the 3d instant, at about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, I was standing at my yard gate when I saw the prisoner Wilson coming towards me; he came up to me and spoke about the weather, then upon business—he said, "Very unpleasant business has brought me here to-day; a man whom I've had in my employ, and my father twenty years before, has recommended me to a gentleman in this neighbourhood of the name of Drake, who has a pony for sale; perhaps you know him, he is a Quaker, and they are very particular folks to deal with—I came down yesterday, and saw the pony, and it's just such a one as I want; they have been driving it in a basket chaise, with a lady, and I want it for the same purpose; I have agreed to give ten guineas for the pony." He again repeated that the gentleman's name was Drake, and that he lived in Hackney. I told him that I did not know Mr. Drake, when he, the prisoner, said, "I gave my man, this morning, a 10l. note, and a sovereign, to go for the pony, pay for it, and bring it to me home, but, to my surprise, he came back with the 10l. note and sovereign, but without the pony." He then went on to say that the gentleman would not let him have the pony, and then added, "I have come down to know the reason, and, to my vexation, found that my man had offered the gentleman ten pounds instead of the ten guineas, and Mr. Drake was so exasperated that he would not let him have the pony at all." The prisoner Wilson then said that he had seen Mr. Drake's groom, who had promised "to follow me here.'1 On saying this, he, Wilson, turned round, and exclaimed, "O, here he is!" and the other prisoner, Rumsey, came up, and Wilson said to him, "I have been telling this gentleman how your muster has served me with respect to the pony." (I took Rumsey to be Mr. Drake's groom.) Ramsey's reply to Wilson was, "No, roaster won't sell it you at any price; I could sell it, but not to you," addressing Wilson. Wilson then turned to me, and asked me how he should get out of it. I said, "Well, you give me the money, and I will give it to the groom," meaning Rumsey; "and he can go and tell his master that I have bought it, and then he can give the pony up to you." Rumsey then said, "No, you are not to have it; that won't do, I'm not to take his money." Wilson then said, "As the groom seems so particular, is there anywhere we can go and sit down?" I said, "Oh, yes!" and led the way into my own house—we seated ourselves, and Wilson took out his pocket-book, and laid it down on the table, then opened it, so that I could see a lot of notes, and he took out one note which appeared to me to be a 5l. bank note; he then took out a 10l. bank note, and said, "This is the note I gave my man this morning;" he then replaced the other note, folded his pocket-book, and put it into his pocket. The other prisoner was not then with us; he was waiting at the gate. Wilson gave me the 10l. note, and one sovereign; that was in my house. I told him that the sovereign made it 10s. more than was to be given for the pony, upon which he said, "O, never mind, those men always expect something." We then went to the gate where the groom (Rumsey) was standing; I tendered him the 10l. note and the sovereign; he objected to taking the note, saying that his master would not have the money from Wilson, and that his master would know it was his, and that he.(Rumsey) would lose
his situation. He then gave me the note back, and Wilson asked me to change it. I took the note in ray hand, and went to a butcher close by to get it changed. Rumsey went with me; he waited outside while I went in. I told the butcher what I wanted, and he came out with me, and directly collared Rumsey; I turned and saw Wilson running away. I kept possession of the 101. note; it is now produced; I wrote my initials on it; it has since been stamped "forged," as it now appears. Rumsey was given into custody, and Wilson was afterwards taken by a police-constable. Wilson offered me a sovereign to let him go, but I told him I would not if he gave me a hundred. The pocket-book produced is the same in which I saw what appeared to be bank notes at my house. Rumsey was then dressed nearly as he is now."
JAMES TYLER . I am a butcher of Wells-street, Hackney—Mr. Arthur Bennett was a neighbour of mine—he came into my shop on 3rd October with a 10l. note for change, and made a statement as to how he became possessed of it—neither of the prisoners were present—in consequence of what he Raid I went to the prisoner Rumsey, who was standing at the door of my shop, dressed as nearly as possible as he is now—I said, "What is your game?"—he said, "What do you mean?"—I said, "You know very well what I mean, this game will not do with me"—he seemed to shift away, and I laid hold of him, and would not allow him to go—I saw Wilson at that time, at the corner of a street, 50 or 60 yards off—he turned round the corner of Greenwood-row, which is no thoroughfare, when I laid hold of Rumsey, and my son, William Tyler, ran after him—Mr. Bennett and I and the two prisoners, went towards the station—there was a great crowd, and a boy in it gave a pocket-book to Rumsey, saying that he had picked it up—Rumsey gave it to Wilson, I believe, but I did not take much notice—Rumsey then went into a baker's shop, who he said knew him very well, and knew that he was not the guilty party I took him to be, but the baker was not at home—Mr. Bennett went on with Wilson, and we afterwards overtook them, and Wilson then asked to be allowed to go into a public-house to have something to drink—we remained there about two minutes, and then went on towards the station—I saw Mr. Bennett hand By water a 10l. note—he put his initials, "A. B." on it first.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. When you went out and saw Rumsey, and said, "What is your game?" did you say anything about the bank note? A. Not a word; I had not said anything to him about it when we went to the baker's shop—I gave him no explanation—he did not ask me at the baker's shop to go in and see the person who knew him to be a respectable man—I do not think he went into the shop at all, only in at the gateway of the bake-house.
DANIEL MURPHY (Policeman). On 5th October Wilson was given into my custody by Mr. Bennett, charged with uttering a forged 10l. note—on the road to the station he told me that he would give me a sovereign to speak to Mr. Bennett to let him go and say no more about it—I did not do so, but took him to the station—he said that he lived at 19, Hackney-road—I did not go there.
GUILTY .— Six Years' each in Penal Servitude.
MESSRS. GIFFARD and H. MATTEWS conducted the Prosecution.
SIMON CANON . I am an innkeeper and saddler, carrying on business at the Black Swan, Royston—on 27th August lost the prisoner came to my inn with another man, who said his name was Edwards—they came in a horse and cart—Romsey called Edwards master—I had seen Edwards on the Friday and Saturday before—he slept at my house for two nights—I had received from him on that occasion two 5l. notes, one was for two watches, and the other I cashed to pay his reckoning, and gave him five sovereigns—Romsey and Edwards came at half-past 9 on 27th, and stopped and had their dinner there, about 1 o'clock—I dined with them—during dinner something was said about buying a pony-cart and harness and two whips from me—Edwards bargained for the pony-cart and harness, and the prisoner for the two whips, one he had for his master, and the other he kept for himself—he said he had been in the trade twelve months himself—Romsey fetched the whips out of my shop—he gave one to his master, and one he kept himself—I was to sell the pony-cart and two whips for 28l. together—Edwards produced a 10l. note and two 5l. notes out of his pocket-book, and gave them to me, and then he took out a cheque book and handed it to Romsey to fill up for him—I furnished him with a pen and ink—Romsey proceeded to write on the cheque that was handed to him, and he handed it to me, as soon as he had written it—that is what he wrote (produced)—I put those notes and the cheque in my pocket—they went away that day about 3 o'clock as hard as they could go, full gallop—that was as soon as dinner was over—Edwards went away in my pony-cart I had sold him, and Romsey went behind in the cart they came with—I examined the cheque next morning, and noticed that there was no signature—I took the cheque to a policeman of the name of Dean, and afterwards went with him to the Bank of England—I saw Spittle, and handed to him the 10l. note, and the two 5l. notes which I had received on 27th, and also one of the notes I had received from Edwards the Saturday before—one was mislaid in my pocket-book.
Cross-examined by F. H. LEWIS. Q. Had you the two 5l. notes in your possession at the time of the dinner? A. I had; Edwards paid for the dinner, the prisoner only bargained for the whips—it was Edwards who produced the cheque and gave it to the prisoner, and said, "Fill up this cheque for me, for 8l."—I have not seen Edwards since—I should like to see him.
JOHN SPITTLE . I am a detective officer of the City police—on 31st October I was in attendance at the Bank of England—the last witness came there and made a statement to me about some notes—I conducted him to the secretary's office, and saw him hand in the notes to Mr. Glenny, and saw him hand back notes which I believe to be the same branded "forged."
GEORGE FREDERICK GLENNY . I am a clerk in the secretary's office at the Bank of England—I remember Spittle coming with another person and some Bank of England notes, which I received from him and took them into the inspector's office—I gave them to somebody, I don't know whom, in the inspector's office.
The Court was of opinion that there was no evidence of guilty knowledge on the part of the, prisoner, or that he was not in fact the servant of Edwards.
NOT GUILTY .
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MESSRS. SLEIGH and BEST conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN ARTHUR BARTON . I am one of the cashiers in the Union Bank of London, Charing-cross branch—the prisoner came there on 21st December last, and brought this cheque, dated 20th December, 1860; drawn on the Union Bank of London by Dodds and Gregg, payable to James Dodds—Messrs. Dodds and Gregg have an account at the bank—I detained the cheque and the prisoner also—I gave it to the manager, Mr. Green.
CHARLES GREEN . I am assistant manager of the Union Bank of London, Charing-cross branch—on 21st December this cheque was brought to me by the last witness—I looked at it and felt certain the signature was not genuine—I asked who presented the cheque, and told them to show the man into my room—the prisoner was brought in to me—I asked him who gave him the cheque—he said, "A person in the street," or, "A gentleman in the street"—I asked him if he knew him—he said, "No"—I said there was something wrong in the cheque, and that I must see him, where could he be found?—he said, "At a public-house at the corner of Whitcomb-street"—I said, "Then I will go with you there"—I did go with him there—I saw a policeman first—I and the policeman, and the prisoner, went there; we did not find anyone there.
JOHN B. GREGG . I am a parliamentary agent in partnership with Mr. Dodds, 18, Abingdon-street, Westminster; we have an account at the Union Bank, Charing-cross branch—the signature to this cheque is not in my handwriting or in that of my partner—in consequence of something I heard I examined my cheque-book—I have it with me—I find this cheque has been taken out—it exactly fits with the counterfoil—the numbers are the same, and the paper fits in—I missed the cheque from this book when I received a communication from the bank—I was in my office on 21st December—my cheque-book was in a drawer in the table, the drawer was not locked—a person of the name of Richard Jordan takes care of the chambers.
COURT. Q. Was he there alone? A. I think it is very likely he was—his mother was there with him; but of course she was not in the room all the time—that was before any of the persons belonging to the office came there—he went in to assist.
GUILTY .— Four Tears' Penal Servitude.
MESSRS. RIBTON and GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.
GEORGE WATKINS (City-policeman, 660). On Saturday, 15th December, I was in New Broad-street with McLeod, another officer, about a quarter to 6 o'clock, and met the prisoner carrying a hamper—I asked where he was going to take it—he said, "To Whitechapel Church"—I asked where he brought it from—he said, "From the White Horse, Cripplegate"—I asked
who gave it to him—he said a man gave it to him to carry—I said, "Where is the man?"—he said, "I don't know where he is now, but I have seen him before, and he told me to take it to Whitechapel Church, and that he would meet me there"—not feeling satisfied, I took him to the station—I there examined the hamper, and found in it a jar containing about two gallons of spirits of wine, and a bottle of potash, which I produce—on Tuesday, the 18th, I was present when McLeod further searched the hamper, and found in it two pieces of paper—the prisoner gave his address at the station as 14, Bridge water-square, I believe—I went there, and in a corner of the first-floor front room I found about eleven pints of olive oil in a jar, and these three bottles (produced).
Cross-examined by MR. PALMER. Q. At the time you met the prisoner, how far were you from the prosecutor's house? A. About three hundred yards—I was not watching—I had not been set to watch by the prosecutor—the prisoner was going towards Whitechapel—he told me that he had seen the man who employed him before—he did not say he was to be paid for carrying the parcel—he carried the hamper to the station, and it was locked up in a cell there by me that Saturday night—it was re-searched on the Tuesday—I did not search it on the Saturday, we merely took the bottles out and put them back again—it was full of straw—I saw that there were no more bottles there and that was all.
JAMES MCLEOD . I was with Watkins when the prisoner was apprehended—we examined the hamper, took the bottles out, and replaced them—we did not examine further—the hamper was put in the cell and locked up—I examined it again on the Tuesday—I then carefully examined the straw, and found amongst it these two pieces of paper; one with the name of "Warner and Barclay" written on it, and the other, "55, Fore-street, Finsbury"—that is where Messrs. Warner live—I communicated with the prosecutors immediately afterwards and then went to the prisoner's address.
Cross-examined. Q. How many people had access to the cell where the hamper was? A. Two of the reserve men, two acting-sergeants, and two inspectors—the key was left in the office—I tied the hamper up with a string when I left it there.
MR. RIBTON. Q. When you went on the Tuesday did you find it in the same state as you had left it? A. I did.
CHARLES HEATH WARNER . I am in partnership with Mr. Barelay, as chemists, at 55, Fore-street—the prisoner was occasionally employed by us as a bottle-washer, seldom exceeding two days at a time—he was last employed on Thursday and Friday, 6th and 7th December—he was introduced to us by a man of the name of Childers, who was then in our service, but whom we have since discharged—this potash is the same sort as we have in our stock—it is iodine of potassium—the bottle in which it is, is the same sort of bottle that we have—here is one from the warehouse—they are called pottle-quarts—we purchase this potassium from Atkinson and Co.—this label is the same as ours—we last took stock on 30th June—I was present, assisting, at the time—we then had eleven of these bottles in stock, and they were full—after this matter was brought to our notice we took stock again, and went through our books—we find that we are losers of this article to a considerable extent—we found six full bottles and four empty ones, and one missing—I have examined the books with a view to find out whether any bottle has been sold, and I am able to say positively that no bottle of this size has gone out, so that one of the eleven bottles is unaccounted for—that would not contain all the potassium that we have
lost—these two pieces of paper contain our name and address—they form portions of one of our labels—I produce one similar—this is the bottom part of the label—it may have been cut off and thrown down on the floor and been trodden on, and probably one of the men, wanting a blank piece of paper, might have put it on a bottle with the blank side upwards—this spirits of wine is the same sort as we have, and the same strength that we use—I had it tested—it is now 55 1/2 degrees, which would have been originnally 56, but by pouring it from one vessel into another it would naturally lose strength—54 is the strength generally used—these bottles containing the olive oil are similar to those we use in our retail trade.
Cross-examined. Q. And all the bottles, I suppose, are similar to those used in the retail trade? A. Not in all retail trades—there are no doubt thousands of such bottles as these in chemists' shops—this piece of the label has the appearance of having been damped; it may, probably, have been thrown down and trodden on; and if any of our people wished to have a blank label, they would cut off the top and bottom containing the name and address—that is constantly done—I know this to be iodine of potassium, by looking at it—a clerk of ours examined the stock—we had no suspicion of anybody robbing us until the policeman drew our attention to these pieces of paper found in the hamper—I am not able to say when the potassium was taken, or in what quantities—we only examine our stock once a year—I can tell, by looking at our books, how much we have sold—a clerk in the counting-house keeps the books, and sells—his name is Banks—he is here—I have never said that I would not prosecute because I could not identify any of the things.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Can you say anything about the hamper? A. I believe it to be one that came from the country some little time since, and I desired our men to put it aside to be returned at Christmas, and when I inquired for it, it was not to be found—I believe this to be that hamper—it was away, probably, three weeks before this took place.
FREDERICK BANKS . I am clerk to Messrs. Warner and Barclay—I assist in taking stock—we took stock on 30th June last—we then had eleven bottles of iodine of potassium—I also assisted in the inspection of the stock the other day—I found a deficiency, when we went through the books, of about three pottle bottles, and one bottle was missing—I am able to say that this bottle was never sold.
Cross-examined. Q. Is there any one else who sells, besides yourself? A. No one else.
MR. RIBTON. Q. If a bottle had been sold, would you be able to find by the books, when and to whom it was sold? A. Yes; I am quite certain no bottles have been sold.
GUILTY on Second Count— Confined Nine Months.
PLEADED GUILTY **— Confined Eighteen Months.
JOHN EMBLING . I am a porter at the office of the Submarine Telegraph Company, in Threadneedle-street, and live in Chatham-place, Locks'-fields—about half-past 9 on the night of 21st December, I had three, cases of turkeys in the room of the telegraph office—I left them for a few minutes
to get' a cab—when I came back I found one of the cases open—I put my hand in the case; I was told it was open—I found something deficient—I ran into the back room where I found the prisoner with a parcel under his arm, which I believed to be the turkey, rolled up in paper and tied up—I said, "How dare you to open the case?"—he said he had not touched it—he went into the back room, which we term the wheel room, and laid down the parcel that he had under his arm—I begged of him to give me up the turkeys, and told him I would give him in charge if he did not—he said he had not touched them, but he went and laid the parcel down on the shelf while I was speaking to him—one other turkey was afterwards produced—two turkeys were produced before the magistrate—they had been in the cases—there were no other turkeys there—each of the turkeys found was tied up in a duster—these dusters belong to the prisoner—I know that because they were dusters used in the office, and he was employed as a cleaner there.
Prisoner. Q. Do not all the porters and the boys in the building use the same sort of dusters as these? A. Not to my knowledge; I do not use them—I have never seen any of the boys use them.
WILLIAM SANDERSON . I am one of the messengers at the Telegraph office—I remember last witness going out and coming in and finding a case had been opened—I saw the prisoner there while he was away, with a hammer in his hand lifting up the lid of the box—I spoke to him—I did not know whose case it was—I did not see him take anything out—I supposed the box to belong to the Company, and that he was doing something with it in his employment there—it was a hammer he used to use.
WILLIAM BECKWITH . I am one of the messengers at the Telegraph office—I saw these three cases in the front hall—I saw the prisoner with the turkey under his arm—he was in the hall where the cases were—I saw him hide the turkey in the wheel-house—about five minutes afterwards I heard Mr. Embling make a complaint about the turkeys.
Prisoner. Q. When you saw Mr. Embling give me in charge, why did you not say then you saw me put a turkey in the wheel-house? A. I did tell him so; and I told Mr. Billings about it.
CHARLES BILLINGS . I am porter at the Telegraph Company—I received some information from last witness, in consequence of which I went to the wheel-house and found a turkey on the sideboard, wrapped up in a blue duster, and covered over by some posters belonging to the Company—I retained it till the officer returned from Bow-lane station, and then handed it over to him—at this time the prisoner was very drunk.
Prisoner. Q. Do not all the porters and the boys use the same sort of dusters as that? A. Not all; Mr. Embling does not—I do, and the boys use them—I did not see you use the hammer at all that day—the constable took away the turkey.
HENRY BAILEY (City-policeman, 449). I took the prisoner into custody—I received a turkey from last witness—it was one of the turkeys shown to Mr. Embling, and identified by him—one of them was wrapped singly in a duster, and the second one in another duster and this paper folded round it.
JOHN EMBLING . I had borrowed a hammer of the prisoner some few days before, but I had given it him back—it was my assistant that borrowed it—the prisoner bore a good character previously—if he had not been so tipsy, I believe he would not have done what he did.
GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the Jury.— Confined Three Months.
NEW COURT.—Monday, January 7th, 1861.
PRESENT—Mr. Ald. MECHI; Mr. Ald. JAMES LAWRENCE; and Mr.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
125. GEORGE DASH (25) , Stealing, on 25th April, 1l. 11s. 6d., on 15th May, 1l. 11s. 6d., and on 4th June, 1l. 11s. 6d., the monies of William Comber Wood and others, his masters; also the sums of 9s. 9d., 1l. 11s. 6d., and 2l. 7s. 6d., the monies of his said masters, to which he
PLEADED GUILTY — Four Years' Penal Servitude.
126. DANIEL DANIELS (45), THOMAS WALKLIN (24), and WILLIAM GILES BOLLEN (32) , Stealing 14 lbs. of pepper, and 7 lbs. of almonds, the property of William Richard Wood and another, the masters of Bollen and Walklin, to which DANIELS and BOLLEN
PLEADED GUILTY .
MESSRS. METCALFE and ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS SMART (City-policeman, 411). On 13th December, about half-past 2 in the afternoon I was on duty in Cannon-street, and saw Daniels standing there—I watched him, and then saw Bollen, then carman, go and speak to him; they conversed together two or three minutes—Bollen then returned to his van, which was standing at the prosecutor's door in Nicholas-lane—he then drew the van into the street, where he met Walklin and Bollen, and Walklin went into the Boar's Head public-house, Cannon-street—they came out—Bollen got on the front of his van and drove away—I lost sight of Walklin—I followed the van through Islington, Holloway, up to a coffee-shop in Camden-town, where Bollen got out and was joined by Daniels—I looked over the blind and saw Daniels—they came out together and Daniels and the boy Brooks, who was with him, got into the van and drove away—two got in, and one was in front—I followed the van to the corner of Mornington-road, Camden-town, where Daniels got down, and a bag which he had previously had on his arm, was handed to him by Bollen while the boy was sent into a shop to deliver some goods—I followed Daniels to Camden-road station—he was about to enter the station yard, and turned round and observed me behind him—we had a long conversation respecting what he had got in the bag—we got into a cab together, and while on our way to the City I suggested that we should go to the station and he could give an explanation to the inspector how he came by it—I took him in custody—I had been watching the prosecutor's premises nearly two months—on Wednesday, 5th December, I was watching and saw Daniels and Bollen together come out of the Boar's Head about 1 o'clock in the day—Walklin came from the warehouse and passed within a few yards of them—Daniels then left Bollen and followed Walklin over London-bridge, about ten yards behind him, and joined him after turning the corner of York-street—they then talked together for about a quarter of an hour—I had also seen them together on several occasions, and had seen them drinking together in the Boar's Head public-house—it was in consequence of that that I communicated with the firm—next morning, the 14th, I took Bollen in custody, and about half an hour afterwards I took Walklin—I told him that he was charged with stealing from his employers 16 lbs. of pepper and 7 lbs. of almonds—he said, "Let me get my coat, and I will go with you"—he gave a false address at the station.
WILLIAM RICHARD WOOD . I am a partner in the firm of Petty, Wood, and Co. wholesale grocers, in Nicholas-lane, and retail, in King William-street—Bollen was our carman, and had been so about eight years—Walklin had been our porter about ten years—he was in the wholesale department, Nicholas-lane, and had the charge of making up parcels, assisted by West—he went to the stock for the contents of the parcels—he did not require anybody to deliver them—the warehouseman, White, each day enters in a book the articles required for him to put up; if there are half-a-dozen for one man, the name and address of that man is put opposite to them—it was his duty to make up the parcels as they are entered in this book (produced); the book being signed at the time the parcels are made up, the parcels are then called over by a warehouseman, he checks them from the bills of parcels and they are put into the van—he does not call them over from the book, but from the delivery notes—the parcels are in the department when Mr. White calls them over—they are called over immediately before they are put into the van—Walklin is present when they are called over—he takes part in it—they are called over by marks—there is a description on each parcel for them to deliver them by—it is a direction which the carman understands, but it is not the man's name—these are the goods (produced)—we had similar goods in our warehouse—Walklin had no right to send out this parcel that day without any direction—this book is in the writing of several persons—it is simply copied from our day-book—Walklin had no right to make up this parcel in addition to the entries in the day-book—he was not directed to send any goods to Daniels that day.
Cross-examined. Q. How many people are engaged in that department? A. Two; Walklin and West—the entries in this book are perhaps in two or three persons' handwriting—it might be White, one of our warehousemen, or Mr. Solly, or Mr. Frederick Wood—it was no part of Walklin's duty to make up other parcels, but if he was directed verbally by either of our warehousemen, of course it would be his duty to do it—Mr. Wood is a cousin of mine—it is perfectly possible that in the hurry of business, directions may be given of parcels which are not entered in the book—we are sometimes too busy about the middle of December—the checking of the parcels is done by a person who calls over the delivery notes—in this instance it appears to have been Mr. White—sometimes one person checks and sometimes another—sometimes in the pressure of business Walklin does other persons' business, and sometimes other persons do his—he has been in our service ten years.
JOHN BROOKS . I am in the employ of Petty, Wood, and Co. and am the boy who goes with the van—on Thursday, 13th December, I went with the van that Bollen drove—when we got to Camden-town, Daniels got into the van—they went into a coffee shop, and came out and got into the van again—I delivered some goods at Robson's, the grocer's, at the corner of Mornington-crescent, and left Daniels and Bollen in the cart together—when I came back I found Bollen only in the van—I had seen Daniels frequently at our warehouse, and knew him.
Cross-examined. Q. He was a customer there, was he not? A. Yes.
JOHN ATKINSON WHITE . I am warehouseman to Petty, Wood, and Co.—Walklin was their porter, and it was his duty to make up parcels for delivery—he had this book for his guidance—it was his duty to endorse upon the parcels the names and address, or certain marks to indicate them, and also the weights—it was my duty to call over the parcels after they were made up, to see that they corresponded with the invoices—I did so on
13th November, and there was no parcel that was not endorsed—I do not know this parcel—there was no parcel to spare beyond those which tallied with the invoices—Walklin had no right to make up any extra parcel after he had called them over—if he had been directed to make up any parcel by any person in the establishment, I should have been told of it—I found a parcel for Robson, of Camden-town, of 141bs. of pepper, and 71bs. of Jordan almonds, and called it over among the others—these (produced,) are the covers of that parcel—these hieroglyphics on it are in Walklin's writing—it is: "14 white pepper R.C.T".—that means, "Robson, Camden Town"—this wrapper taken from Daniels, has on it "14 white pepper," in Walklin's writing, but has no initials—the parcel of almonds, is marked "7 of Jordan C."—C. is the quality; there is nothing to indicate the address—that also is in Walklin's writing—he had no authority to send those out that day.
Cross-examined. Q. When was it after the 13th, that these persons were taken in custody? A. On the 14th—I called out from the rough notes which are made out from the book—I did not call out from the book at all—this that I have been looking at, is not the book which I used—the other person would check either by book or parcel—we were in different departments—all the parcels were laid on the counter—I had the rough notes, and called out, "7 lbs. Jordan C.; Robson, Camden-town," and received an answer from Walklin in the other room—I could not see whether he answered from the parcels or from the book, or from his memory—there were fifty or sixty parcels on that day—I did not know when I had called over all, that there were any left—West assists Walklin to pack up the parcels; they are made up openly in the warehouse—I have sometimes checked them with West when Walklin was not there at all, and I believe the boy West sometimes packed up parcels when Walklin was not there—I do not recollect articles being brought back by the man, saying that two parcels had been made up for one customer—I was engaged in the business on the day before this, but do not recollect that I was engaged in packing up parcels when Walklin was not there.
Cross-examined. Q. Have you been there the whole time that Walklin was? A. No, he was there before me—his wages were, I believe, 18s. a week—I am not aware that this very parcel was made up in my presence—I can-not say whether I was in the van two or three hours before the van was dispatched—I do not recollect that some person called out, "Has the van gone yet?"—I do not recollect that Henry West took these parcels past me while I was standing in the warehouse.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Ought it to have been mentioned to you if any extra parcel had been made up? A. Yes; but he said nothing about one when I called them over—after the calling over he had no right to make up any extra parcel without mentioning it to me—if my tickets were called over and exhausted, and he had another parcel remaining, or if I had mislaid a ticket, it would be his duty to mention to me that there was an extra parcel.
HENRY WEST . I am a light porter in the employ of Wood and Co.—it was my duty to help Walklin to make up his parcels—he has the book by him to make them up by—on Thursday, 13th December, he was making up parcels by it, at the time of my being sent out—when I came back he said, "Empty that bag of pepper into No. 1, white bin;" which I did, and then he told me to put 14 lbs. into it—all the parcels that had been called over had been put into the van at that time—I took the bag to the bin, filled it took it to the scale and weighed it, and he took it out of the scale and
did it up—he then told me to do up 7 lbs. of Jordan almonds, C.—I weighed them and did them up and then he marked them—these are the parcels—he marked what there was in the bag, and then said, turning over his books, "Oh, never mind the initials, Bollen must find out who they are for"—and then he told me to take them to the van where the other parcels were—the calling over was finished: they had been in the van a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes, and the van was ready to start—I took them to the boy in the van—Bollen was not there.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you very busy just then? A. Yes; he did not look at his book just before he gave me the order—this book was on the counter—he took it in this way, and said, "Oh, never mind the initials, let Bollen find out who they are for"—he had not written the initials on the parcels, but he had written what there was in the bag—it was after that that he turned over the book—what he said was, "Bollen must find out who they are for by his notes"—the van bad been loaded and had drawn up the lane, and I took them down the lane—I was there part of the time when Mr. White was calling over the goods—I did not see Mr. Solly—I was not always sure that it was Mr. White who called them over, but I enquired, and afterwards it came to my memory that it was Mr. White—I was not sure of it before the Magistrate—I sometimes check the parcels myself, in the pressure of business—I never heard of too many parcels being sent out in mistake, but there have been mistakes—Mr. White was in the room when Walking told me to take the parcels out to the van—Mr. White said, "I hope the van has not gone, if you have not got all the parcels in it"—he was getting this very parcel ready at that time—I have sometimes checked parcels when Walklin has not been there—it is sometimes done by book and sometimes from memory, but then the parcels are there, though not the rough notes—I have always seen Walklin hard at his work from 7 in the morning—we are sometimes there as late as 12 at night, just before Christmas.
MR. METOALFE. Q. Is it a pretty large room? A. Yes; about the size of this Court—I did not hear Walklin tell Mr. White that he was going to send these parcels off—it was twenty minutes or half an hour after the van was loaded that he told me to empty the bag of pepper—cels are generally sent to the van directly they are called over—I followed the van up the lane.
COURT. Q. Would that be its way out? A. Well, they could not turn round in the road, it is so narrow, but they might have backed out.
WILLIAM GILES BOLLEN . (The prisoner). I have pleaded guilty to this charge—on 13th December these two parcels were in my cart—I do not remember taking them—I gave them to Daniels—I did not see them brought to the cart, I was across at the warehouse watering the horses—I do not know who brought them in—I went down Nicholas-lane and Cannon-street, and Walklin beckoned me down off the box into the Boar's Head—he asked me where I should meet Daniels—at that time I could not tell him where I would meet him, or at what time, but I said I should stop at Camden-town to tea, and would meet him there—he did not tell me anything further—he told me there were two parcels in the van—he paid, "You have got two parcels, one of Jordan's, and two of pepper, the same as for Robson; but you will be sure to know them, for I have marked them in full—you are to give them to Daniels f" I met Daniels at the coffee-house where I stopped to tea, and I then gave them to him—I served three or four customers, and I gave them to him at a shop in the Mornington-road—there was no arrangement with me about paying—I was only to deliver them to him—I have seen
Daniels there before—he has frequently bought things at our warehouses—old fruit, and paper, and several things, and I have seen him about when he has not bought things—I have seen him frequently with Walklin, and with other people in the place too—I have received money from Walklin at times—I did not see Walklin that day after I got back from the van—I did not see him again at all before I was taken in custody—money has passed between him and me; I cannot call to mind the date, but about two or three weeks before 13th September: on several occasions; I cannot tell the exact amount—I think in one instance 4s. 6d. and on another occasion I think 5s. or 6s.—I have seen Daniels upon one of those occasions—I think the money from Walklin was given me for goods of this description; something similar to this. MR. SLEIGH objected to these matters being gone into. THE COURT would reserve the point if it became necessary.
FREDERICK HENRY MAPLESDEN . I am foreman to Mr. Dervey, a boot maker, of 39, Poultry—I know Daniels and Walklin, I have seen them together—my attention was called to them by Smart the officer—on 5th December last, I went into the Boar's Head public-house, Cannon-street, at Smart's request—I had a glass of ale, and while I was waiting there, Daniels came in—he looked the side of the window as if he were waiting for some one—Bollen came in and they had a very deep conversation for some three or four minutes—I went out and told Smart what I had seen—he asked me to go back again—I did so, and they were still talking—I went out—Daniels went out just before me, and he was joined by the porter—Daniels went over the bridge, and I and Smart went together and watched them over the bridge—Walklin was before Daniels, and when Walklin had gone round the corner he stopped for a moment and was joined by Daniels, and they stopped and talked together for some time, at a grocer's shop at the corner of York-street, over the bridge—the next day, the 6th, I went up to see whether I could see Smart at the same place where I went the day before—he was not there, but I saw Daniels—I watched him some minutes—he went into the Boar's Head public-house, and was there joined by Walklin, and they had a pint of ale together—they stayed there about six or eight minutes—I was there all the while—I left them there and went to look for Smart—I saw them come out together—they went over the bridge together.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you examined before the Alderman who heard this case? A. No; I have nothing to do with the prosecutors—it was at my dinner hour that this took place.
COURT to HENRY WEST. Q. What time was it that you took those parcels out of the van? A. I cannot say—I should say it was, perhaps, a little after 1 o'clock—I had not been to my dinner.
WALKLIN— GUILTY .—Strongly recommended to Mercy by the Jury; he received a good character.— Confined Fifteen Months.
DANELS—GUILTY.— Confined Fifteen Months.
BOLLEN—GUILTY.— Confined Nine Months.
OLD COURT, Tuesday, January 8th, 1861.
PRESENT—Mr. Ald. COPELAND; Mr. RECORDER; Mr. Ald. MECHI; Mr. Ald. HALE.
Before Mr. Recorder.
GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.
MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.
BENJAMIN WHEATLEY . I am a district visitor, at 22, Kennington-place, Westminster—on the 12th December, about five o'clock in the evening, I was passing along Marsham-street, when I met the two prisoners and another boy, and another young woman—the boys were in front and the female prisoner was behind—the male prisoner struck me in the left chest, and the other boy pushed me and I fell down—I got up again and caught hold of the boy that had the books—I had a parcel of books under my arm, and the boy not in custody took the books from under my arm—I got them back again, when the female prisoner came and caught hold of my necktie, pulled it off, and struck me several times in the face, and the boy got away from me—the books fell out of the parcel, some I picked up myself, and a little child about six years old picked up the remainder and gave to me—I had a full opportunity of seeing the prisoners—I am quite positive of Fleet—all four of them ran away—I ran after them and caught Richardson in Bennett's-yard, Marsham-street—a struggle ensued, and Fleet and the other two came to her rescue—they caught hold of me but two men coming out of a gateway in the yard, they made off, and left Richardson with me—I detained her till a policeman came up and gave her in custody—I had a slight knowledge of Fleet and Richardson, by visiting round that district—I knew them by sight—the value of the books is 7s.
Richardson. Q. Was I not coming along with another, young woman? A. Yes, behind Fleet and the other boy who is not in custody—you were not pushed at all by the two who were in front of you—as soon as you saw I had got hold of the boy not in custody, you came and caught hold of my collar and my throat—you would not have fallen down if you had not done so—I felt your blows very much next day.
ROBERT STAPLES (Policeman, B 310). I took Richardson in custody on 12th December—about a quarter of an hour before the robbery, I saw four of them together, Richardson, and Fleet, and two more—when I took Richardson she said she knew nothing about it, it was "Ginger" that took the books from Mr. Wheatley—Fleet goes by that name.
MICHAEL JOHN SHEEN (Policeman, B 272). I saw Fleet on the evening of the 12th December, with another lad—he ran away and I took him on the following morning in his bed, at a lodging-house in St Ann' s-street; Westminster—I told him I wanted him for stealing some books—that was one charge—there were two charges against him—he said he knew nothing about the book affair.
Richardson's Defence. I was coming down Marsham-street, along with another young woman, when a boy with a white blouse came across and pushed me and very nearly pushed the other young woman down—I went to pass the gentleman, and when he had hold of the boys he pushed me and I was very nearly falling, only I caught hold of the gentleman's coat or something—I ran after the boy down Bennett's-yard, when the gentleman ran and caught hold of me—he pulled me about very much—I told him it
was not me, I would walk till we came to a policeman—he said no—he pulled my necktie off and tore my clothes all to pieces—we walked till we came to a policeman and he gave me in charge—as to the policeman saying he saw me with the boys, it is no such thing.
Fleet's Defence. At the time this occurred I was at home having my tea—I was not there at all—I play the banjo about the streets.
BENJAMIN WHEATLY , Re-examined. I recovered my scarf again but the necktie I have not recovered—the hat and scarf were brought to me afterwards—I was struck several times in my face by the female, and the second time when I met her I was pushed down and we rolled over one another.
FLEET*— GUILTY .
RICHARDSON†— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months each.
JAMES SIMPSON FROST . I am in the service of the Great Northern Railway Company, and reside at 11, Claremont-terrace, Kentish-town—on the night of the 21st December last, I was in a butcher's shop in Skinner-street, King's cross—whilst there, the prisoner came up to me and asked me if he should get me a cab—I replied that I could get one myself, I was obliged to him—within a minute after that time a cab drew up, and I told the cabman to go to Kentish-town—I had a turkey, two fowls, and a piece of beef with me—I was taken to the Castle at Kentish-town, and got out there—I made a proposition to the cabman to take me to my residence, about 100 yards further, but he said the road was too bad—I went on by the congregational church, and was met by three men, one of whom made an attempt to get the package from me, but did not succeed—I was knocked down, and the package went out of my hand—I saw three persons by me when I was knocked down—I cried, "Stop thief!"—all I recollect, was seeing the three make an attempt to get possession of the package, and then run away.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. How far had you to go from where you first got in, at Skinner-street, to the Castle in Kentish-town? A. About a mile and a half—we went at a walking pace all the way, on account of the state of the road—after I left the cab, I walked about fifty or sixty yards, I should say, before anything happened—there was no moon, but it was very misty.
JOSIAH ELDRED (Policeman, S 434). I was on duty on the 21st of last month, about ten o'clock at night, at Kentish-town—whilst there, I heard the cry of "Stop thief!"—I ran and saw the prisoner standing over the prosecutor—he ran away, and I followed him, till my brother constable caught him—when I went on duty again, at about 11 o'clock, I found a turkey and two fowls.
Cross-examined. Q. Were they lying on the road? A. No, thrown over into a garden—I was from fifteen to twenty yards off when I saw the prisoner—I could see at that time of night, it was light—there was snow on the ground—it was not misty—when I ran after the prisoner I did not lose sight of him till he was caught—I saw two other men there—they ran away in a different road to the prisoner—I know that the prisoner lives thereabouts.
COURT. Q. Did you see more than three persons there at that time? A. I did not.
heard the cry of "Stop thief!" and I saw the prisoner running away—I caught him—he said, "You need not hold me, policeman, I am not one of them; I did not hit the man"—I took him back, and met the prosecutor—from the time I took the prisoner till I met the prosecutor we had gone, I should say, from fifty to seventy or eighty yards, I could not say exactly—it was a light night, not very frosty.
The prisoner received a good character, but John Cook, police serjeant, S, 198, stated that lie was the constant associate of thieves.
GUILTY — Four Years' Penal Servitude.
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN TURNER . I am a cashier at the Cannon-street Branch of the Unity Bank—on the afternoon of 12th December, a person presented a cheque to me, purporting to be a cheque for 14l. signed by Mr. Fletcher—these (produced) are portions of the cheque—I had some doubts about the genuineness of it, and in consequence of that I sent it to the drawer's—I can tell by the number of the cheque that it is one of the cheques from a cheque-book which had been issued to Mr. Fletcher, by our bank—I compared it with the cheque-book register.
Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. How can you tell it, there is no number on the cheque? A. I compared the number before the cheque was torn—I did not go to Mr. Fletcher's, with our clerk and the party who brought the cheque—I do not know what took place with him—it was, I suppose, half an hour before they returned.
SAMUEL VIGNE . I am a ledger keeper at the Unity Bank—Mr. Turner made a communication to me in the hearing of a person who is not in custody, and handed me a cheque for 14l. purporting to be signed by Mr. Fletcher—I went out with the person who presented it—on getting outside the prisoner crossed from opposite to the man whom I accompanied and had some few words of conversation with him—the prisoner then came to me, and I said to him, "There is some incorrectness as to the signature"—upon which he said, "lam sure it is his signature, I can show you his private mark," at the same time snatching at it—I had it in my hand in this way—the effect was, that he took the middle of the cheque out—I cannot tell what became of it after he got it—I never saw it again at all, I looked—we proceeded towards Billingsgate—that is where Mr. Fletcher carries on business—we went to his stand—the other person accompanied us as far as Deane, Dray, and Co.'s, and then he said to the prisoner, that he wanted to go there, and he left us—on getting to Mr. Fletcher's stand at Billingsgate, the prisoner looked about and said, "Mr. Fletcher is not here"—he afterwards took me to Mr. Fletcher's cellar in Love-lane—I waited outside—he went into the cellar, came out again, and said, "Mr. Fletcher is not here"—he then took me to a public-house in Eastcheap, and I left him there—I did not find Mr. Fletcher there—I immediately went back to Mr. Fletcher's cellar and counting-house in Love-lane—I looked in the cellar and found Mr. Fletcher there—he accompanied me back to the bank—I then returned to the public-house where I had left the prisoner—I found him there—I did not find anything of the other man—I told the prisoner that my instructions were to take him back to the bank—he went back with me—I was desired to go out and get an officer, and I procured the assistance of Huggett, the officer, and the prisoner was given into custody.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you say anything to the prisoner for snatching the cheque? A. I do not remember saying a word—I spoke to him previous to his snatching, but not afterwards—he did not say, "I will take you to Mr. Fletcher's and inquire about it"—I know Mr. Fletcher well, and have worked for him—I do not remember that anything was said—we walked on in silence—I did not ask the prisoner to give me the cheque back again—I did not see what he did with it—I do not remember that at the time he snatched the cheque there was a great crowd coming by, and a man pushed against me—it was not so—we walked right on to Billingsgate—Mr. Fletcher has a cellar, and a counting-house over it—I saw the prisoner go into the cellar—he came out and said Mr. Fletcher was not there—nobody went into the counting-house—we then came away—I cannot remember what public-house it was, we then went to—we went to two public-houses—it was at the second that I left the prisoner—I wont back to Fletcher's counting-house, and before I left there the prisoner came in—I then returned with Mr. Fletcher to the bank, and then went back to the public-house where I had left the prisons—I found him there, and he went to the bank at my request—I went into the waiting-room, and Mr. Terry came to me—t of the conversation with Mr. Terry took place in my presence—Mr. Terry is the manager—he did not say, "If you don't find this Johnson, I shall give you in charge for snatching the cheque"—I do not remember anything of the sort—I do not remember his addressing the prisoner at all—I went out directly.
JOSEPH HUGGETT . I am a detective officer of the City of London-upon being communicated with, I went to the Cannon-street branch of the Unity Bank, and there saw the prisoner—Mr. Terry banded me this mutilated cheque in the prisoner's presence, and said, "This is A forgery"—I said to the prisoner, "What account can you give me of this?" he said, "I met a man this afternoon whom I had seen in Yorkshire, he told me his name was Johnson, and he had one of Fletcher's cheques, he was going to the Unity to get it cashed, I walked with him, and waited outside while he went in"—I said, "Do you know whether Johnson has any address in London?"—he said, "I don't know, all that I can tell you is, as I said before, that I met him in Yorkshire, and he said he was a fish-factor, and that is all I know of him"—I told him I did not feel satisfied with the answers that he gave, and I took him in custody.
Cross-examined. Q. Was Mr. Terry present when you were there? A. He was; I heard from Mr. Vigne that the cheque had been snatched from him—Mr. Terry gave me these two pieces, and stated that the cheque had been snatched from the clerk by the prisoner—the prisoner did not then say that he did not snatch it—on the road from Cannon-street to Bow-lane police-station he said it was a mistake on the part of the clerk—I did not understand from Mr. Terry, at that time, that the prisoner denied having snatched it.
FREDERICK FLETCHER . I carry on business in Billingsgate-market, and keep an account at the Cannon-street branch of the Unity Bank—neither the writing nor signature on these portions of a cheque, are in my writing, or written by my authority—it is a bad imitation—I cannot say how long I have known the prisoner—from six to nine months—I have had him in my employment occasionally during that time; merely to go on errands and such like—I have kept my cheque-book sometimes in my desk, and' sometimes on the top of the desk, in Love-lane—I miss four cheques from it—I believe the cheque, of which these are portions, is out of my book, but my cheques are all of one number right through the book—the prisoner would
come into the counting-house—on this day, just previous to Vigne's calling on me, I was in the counting—house in Love-land—I had been there, I should say, over two hours—I may have been outside the door, but not off the landing, for those two hours—I was to be found, if anybody had gone there and asked for me, during those two hours.
Cross-examined. Q. You do not speak to being in the counting-house all the time? A. I was on the landing all the time—there are other counting-house—I might have stepped into a friend's counting-house—I know the public-house where the prisoner was afterwards found—I believe it is the King's Head—that is a house frequented by persons connected with Billings-gate—I am frequently there myself, and the prisoner frequently goes there—I know a Mr. Cannon—he is a very respectable fish salesman—I only recollect the prisoner for about six or nine months—I could not be positive—he very often came into the counting-house—plenty of other people would have the same opportunity—I do not know Johnson at all—I have not had dealings with a man from Yorkshire named Johnson—this cheque was drawn in the name of Soper—that is a servant of mine—he is in London at pre-sent—at that time he was in Yarmouth—I have entrusted the prisoner with money occasionally, and found him honest.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do you know where the prisoner was, previous to being in your employ? A. I never knew him before, till I saw him with Mr. Cannon.
GUILTY of uttering.
Mr. Cannon gave the prisoner a good character for the last fifteen months, but the prisoner had been twice previously convicted at this Court; once in 1848 of larceny, and again in 1859 of cutting and wounding.
Four Years' Penal Servitude.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months ,
FREDERICK CROASDELL . I carry on business as a wholesale cheesemonger in Miles-lane, Upper Thames—street, in partnership with Arthur Brocksopp—I have seen the prisoner at my place of business about three times altogether—on the first occasion my partner sold him some goods; I was in the warehouse—we told him we would sell them for cash—that was about two months before this transaction—we were paid by a cheque from his father—the cheque was paid and then we sent the goods—we got the money first—I remember his coming a week or two after, with a second order for goods—I was present then—nothing was said to him about credit—the goods were brought back, in consequence of no money being paid—on the afternoon of Wednesday, 2d January, he came and selected articles to the value of 12l. 12s. 7d., which form the subject of the present indictment—I distinctly told him I should not sell them unless he paid cash for them—he said, "Very well, when you send the goods I will pay the money"—I sent the goods by Rowland, the carman, with an invoice, and I gave him instructions—he came back again about two hours after, without the money or the goods.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You did not tell us the amount of the first transaction? A. About 63l.—previous to delivering the goods,
my partner went to his shop—I visited the shop myself last Wednesday evening; not before this last parcel of goods was delivered—I believe Rowland took the first parcel of goods—we entered these goods in our ordinary day-book, as sold to the prisoner—I have not my books here—I believe there was another party present, besides myself, when the prisoner selected the goods—I do not know who it was—it was some party with the prisoner—I do not know that I should know that party if I were to see him—our warehouseman was present—he is not here—the prisoner was a few minutes selecting the goods—he did not call in the morning and ask me about butter, nor did I tell him that I had not any that would suit him then, but would have if he called by and bye—he asked me if I had some other description of bacon, and I told him I had not—I did not say that if he came again next day I would have some that would suit him; nothing of the kind—he did not, on the very first occasion that he called, tell us that his father was a man of means, and that we should be paid by his father's cheques—we knew nothing of his father—he did not mention his father to us on the first occasion and tell us, when he handed us the cheque, that it was his father's cheque—we received it from the father—the father did not come there with him—we sent the invoice to his father and he paid the cheque—his father is not living at the place where he carries on business—he lives at Trinity-square, Tower-hill—I believe he is carrying on business as a provision merchant—when the goods were brought back by our carman, Mr. Brocksopp went first to the shop, and I went after he came back—I was there while he was there—it was a few minutes before 12 at night when I ordered the prisoner to be given into custody—when I got there I found these very hams and bacon in the shop; the greater part of them cut up—I was rather excited—the prisoner did not tell me that that was not the way to speak to him, that he was a respectable man, and that we should have had his father's cheque for the goods, if we had only waited—he said nothing of the kind—Mr. Brocksopp said, in my hearing, "Now, Mr. Bell, I must have my money, or my goods back"—the prisoner did not say, "So you shall have your money, but I have been treated very grossly by your carman, and I am not to be insulted with impunity"—I was not present during the whole of the time that Mr. Brocksopp was there—the agreement was that the money was to come back when we sent the goods.
MR. ATKINSON. Q. You went with Mr. Brocksopp after you came back, and got a police-officer? A. Yes—the prisoner selected the goods himself—the other person was by the door.
RICHARD ROWLAND . I am a carman to Messrs. Croasdell and Brocksopp—I received the bacon, cheese, and the hams on Wednesday, the 2d January—I went from my master's place with them about a quarter-past 5 the prisoner lives in Clarence-place, Hackney-road—I took this invoice with me—I received instructions from my master before I took the goods—I did not find the prisoner at Clarence-place when I got there—the goods were at that time in my cart—when I found he was not there I waited as-near as I can tell about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—he then came to me at the cart—I remained with the goods in the cart—I presented the invoice to him and told him my instructions were, when I left home, either to take the goods or the money back (I had taken him goods before, on one occasion, but brought them back again because he would not pay me)—he said, "Bring he goods in the shop, and I will pay you, not before"—I told him on those conditions I would take them in the shop, and I took
them in—he weighed them and he checked the weights off, and said he was very pleased with the goods, and told me where to put them—I put them down and then asked him for the money—I said to him, "I mast either take the goods or the money back"—he said he would see me b—before he would pay me—he had nothing in his hand at the time he said that—I asked him for the money and he would not pay me—I staid in the shop in hopes to get the money, and he took and cut up the bacon and asked if I would not like to have a bit, and sneered me about—I kept in the shop for about an hour and twenty minutes—he brought me a chair out of the parlor and a newspaper, and asked me if I would not like to sit down and read; and to get me out of the shop, he asked me if I would not go and have a glass of ale—I said, "No"—at last I found I could not get the money, and I drove home as hard as I could and told my employers—when the prisoner found that I would not go, he said if I did not. go he would b—y well kick me out; I then went home.
Cross-examined. Q. You had been there on two occasions previously; bad you not? A. Yes—I did not know, on the first occasion I went there, that the goods had been paid for by a cheque—I had a book to sign when the goods were paid for—I had not heard anything about his father then—I heard afterwards that his father had paid for the goods—on this occasion, when I demanded the money, I was very civil; I did not use any abusive language—as near as I can recollect, it was about a quarter or twenty minutes past 5 when I took the goods—when I said I must have the money or the goods he did not say that he would call in the morning and pay for them—he did not say that he was going that evening to see his father, and would get his father's cheque and pay for them in the morning; not a word about it—he did not say to me, "You have no necessity to talk in that way about me; I paid honourably when I bought before, and I will pay again"—there were two men in his shop at the time—I do not know who they were—they were not persons that came to buy things—they were there when I went in—I presented the invoice to the prisoner and told him that my instructions were to take either goods or money back, before they were removed out of my cart—I was there for an hour and twenty minutes—no customers came in while I was there—I saw a few things in the shop, eatables; but that was all—he did not beg of me not to make that noise in the hearing of his customers; that it would injure him; he did not say, Come into the parlour, and do not make that noise."
MR. ATKINSON. Q. You Say there were no customers? A. No—this stamp was on the invoice when I took it—I am able to write.
ARTHUR BROCKSOPP . I carry on business with Mr. Croasdell—the prisoner came a few weeks back and asked what were our terms; I told him cash on the first transaction; on the second, a respectable reference, and then it would require further consideration—I went down and saw his shop; and told him it was quite impossible to get a living in the place, being a situation—he came to our place a week or ten days afterwards and said, "Will you trust me?"—I said, "No; the gentleman who brought you here first told me not to trust you a farthing; I can only serve you for cash"—he bought some goods—I gave instructions to our carman about the goods—the goods came back on the second occasion—on the third occasion, 2d January, I was not present when he came—I arrived home just as the carman went away; I was informed of the transaction, and I went instantly after him—I went down to his shop, and he said, "Come inside," and closed the door—I kept the handle of the door in my hand—he said, "What do
you want?"—I said, "I want the money or the goods at once"—he said, "Go out directly or I will stab you;" he looked round; I thought he was going to get some sort of weapon, and I rushed into the street—while in the shop I looked at the fittings up; the place was full of dummies, with hardly any goods; butter-tubs glazed over with imitation of butter, and cheeses made of plaster of Paris—I went home and brought the carman and my partner in a cab, and then went with a police-officer and gave him in charge.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you take a policeman with you? A. On the way, going home, I went to the police-station, and they sent a policeman to watch the house—the policeman was waiting outside, by the instructions of the sergeant, to take him into custody when I arrived—I did not see his father on any occasion—I sent my clerk for the cheque, and we had it cashed before the goods were delivered—the clerk is not here—they do not make use of dummies in respectable shops; we never had one in our own—the prisoner's was a middling-sized shop—I had not visited it between the first sale of goods to him, and the last transaction—when I saw him that night I had a conversation with him, when my partner was not present—he did not complain in any way to me of the manner in which the carman had treated him, and that he had lost his temper; he only rushed at me and said he would stab me—I asked him for the money, and that was his answer—he did not say that if we waited till the next day his father would give us a cheque, as he bad done before.
JOHN LARK (Policeman, H 126). I went with Mr. Croasdell and Mr. Brocksopp, and took the prisoner into custody—he was searched at the station, and upon him was found 1l. 17s. 9d. a pocket book, and this invoice—I cannot say exactly what was in the till, but what was in the house afterwards was 1l. 0s. 3 1/4 d. in copper and silver—that was the whole of the money that was taken either in the house or on him.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you on duty at the time? A. I was—I called the defendant up by ringing the bell—the prosecutors were with me, and the carman—I stated that he was charged with stealing these goods, or obtaining them without paying for them—I cannot say whether that was in the hearing of both the prosecutors, for I entered the shop by myself—I never heard him say, in the presence of all three, that if he had been treated decently there would have been no necessity for any of this fuss, because he would have paid for the goods to-morrow—he asked me what he was charged with—I said, "For obtaining the goods without paying for them"—he said he intended to pay for them—he said that in my presence, not in the presence of the other parties—I was not, when before the magistrate, under the impression that the two prosecutors and the carman were present when he said that.
The prisoner received a good character.
GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the Jury.— Confined Six Months.
MR. M. J. O'CONNELL conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS HUBBLE (City-policeman, 94). On the afternoon of 29th December I went to the prisoner's premises, 66, Milton-street, where he carries on the business of a marine-store dealer—I said, "Do you know anything about receiving any flour lately?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Where is it?" or, "From whom did you receive it?"—he said, "From a man I do not know; a man was coming up here on Thursday evening; it was very slippery, and he was loaded very heavily; his
horses could not get along, and he asked me to let him leave three sacks, I told him I had not got room, and sent my daughter up to Mr. Brazaier, a baker's, just above, to ask him whether he would accommodate me by taking in three sacks for me"—I went to Mr. Brazier's, who lives in Milton-street also—another constable remained at the prisoner's premises—Brazier came back with me to the prisoner's place—I saw three sacks of flour at the prisoner's previous to going to Brazier's—they were standing in the back kitchen on the ground floor; the back part of the shop—the sacks were quite plain—there was no mark on them.
Cross-examined by MR. TINDAL ATKINSON. Q. Just let me know distinctly what you said to him when you went into the shop. A. I said, "Do you know anything about any flour? or receiving any flour? taking any flour?" or, something of that sort, words to that effect—I said, "Lately?"—he said "Yes"—I then said, "Where is it?"—he said, "Here it is in my back kitchen"—I got to his back kitchen by going through the shop—it is on the same floor as the shop—there is a glass door in the partition—it is a sort of partition with four squares of glass in it—you can see through it from the shop, but you cannot see the whole that is there—I did not look through—I went inside—the moment you pass out of the shop you pass into the room—he there keeps a portion of the thing she deals in—the three sacks were in one corner of the place, by themselves, so that I should have no difficulty, when I went into the room, in seeing them—I had seen the flour I had the conversation about, where they were taken to, and then he explained about the state of the streets being slippery, and the man being overloaded, and wanting him to take care of the three sacks—he told me he had taken them to Brazier's—he said they were taken, and he had had them back again—he said he had sent his daughter with the carman to Brazier's with the flour, having no room.
MR. O'CONNELL. Q. How long were you there before you went to Brazier's? A. About five minutes.
LOUISA BRAZIER . I am the wife of Samuel Brazier, a baker, of Milton-street—the prisoner lives a few doors from me—on Thursday evening, 27th December, the prisoner's daughter came to our house between 6 and 7 o'clock—she made some communication to me, and a wagon came afterwards to our door, and the carman took from the wagon three sacks of flour—he put them in a bake-house at the back of the shop—I did not see anyone with the carman—after that, the same evening, my husband asked me something about those sacks, and after that, one man took away two of the sacks; and another man took away the third—I do not know of my own knowledge where they were taken to—I did not see them taken anywhere—I saw, when the man brought the wagon, that there were other sacks of flour besides these three—the carman took them from the back of the wagon.
Cross-examined. Q. It was very severe weather at this time, was it not? A. Yes—the streets were in a very sad state as regards horses.
SAMUEL BRAZIER . I am the husband of the last witness—I remember coming in last Thursday week, 27th December, in the evening, and finding three sacks of flour—I asked my wife some question about them—in conesquence of what she said to me I went to Mr. Styles', and found him at his shop—I said to him, "Who authorized you to send flour to my place?"—he said, "Oh! you have no need to flurry yourself about it"—he began relating something about a man being stuck in the snow, and could not get his wagon along up the street; I did not pay much attention to that; all I said was, "You must take it off my premises"—I told him I had no room,
and if I had, I should not keep it on my premises—I said that if he did not do so, I should not go home, I should go to Moor-lane station-house, unless he came with me, or sent some one to fetch it away—he made no remark upon that, he went out to look for a man—I saw him coming up the street with a man, and his daughter came with the man—the man went into the bake-house with the prisoner's daughter, and took one sack of flour, then he came for the other, and took that also—he went down to Mr. Styles' house—I stood at the street door, and saw him go down with the sack on his back in the middle of the road—I got M'Caffrey, another man, to take away the third sack—he lives directly opposite me—I went, with him, to the prisoner's house—I observed the sacks that were taken from ray premises—they were the same as I generally have—there was a mark on them, "City of London"—I am quite sure that mark was on both sides of each of the three sacks—when I went into the prisoner's shop, I said to him, "You ought to be ashamed of yourself to put flour in my premises while I was in bed,' because he had sent up to see me—he said, "Oh, go on, go on!"—that was all he said—I walked away—I had no connexion with the man—I had never bought any flour or anything else of him.
WILLIAM STRADWICK . I am carman to Messrs. Bingham, of Chapel-street, Cripplegate, and live in Leonard-street, Finsbury—on Thursday, 27th December, I was in the Axe public-house, Milton-street, between 6 and 7 in the evening—the prisoner came there to me—he called me out and asked me to go up the street and fetch down two sacks of flour—I went with his daughter up the street, to Mr. Brazier's—I took a sack of floor from there to the prisoner's shop, and put it in the back room—I went up and fetched another and got part of the way with it and tumbled down and hurt my ancle, and could not go any more—I do not know what kind of sack it was; it had a mark on it,; I did not observe what the mark was—the prisoner gave me 2s. for the job—I did not take the second sack the whole of the way.
Cross-examined. Q. He gave you 2s. to get a cab to get home, did not he, because your leg was hurt? A. No; he did not do anything of the sort—I hobbled home the best way I could—I told him my leg was hurt—it was very much sprained—I was laid up two days with it.
WILLIAM KINGSFORD . I am a clerk in the employment of Thomas and Charles Kingsford, millers, of Deptford—I remember on 27th December our wagon bringing some flour up to London—it left between 7 and 8 in the evening—it had forty sacks of flour when it left home—it was in charge of the carman—he was instructed to leave fifteen sacks at two bakers', and twenty-five sacks he was to take to the City of London Union, at Bow—he never returned—the wagon was brought home by a strange man about 3 o'clock on Friday morning—the carman has not returned since—we examined the wagon the next day, and found in it eighteen sacks of flour and one empty sack; three out of the eighteen sacks had been opened, and about half a bushel of flour taken out of each—the eighteen were intended for the City of London Union, with "City of London" marked on the sacks—the empty one was for the City of London Union—all the sacks in which the flour for the Union was, were marked "City of London," and the property of the City of London—the sacks were marked from top to bottom in long letters, "City of London"—they were marked on both sides, I believe, to the best of my knowledge—I have seen the sacks several times and I think they were marked on both sides—I am sure that mark was on all the twenty-five.
Cross-examined. Q. Is it a stamp mark? A. Printed with red paint—I was not present when the sacks were delivered to the carman to be taken out—about fifteen sacks that were in the wagon at the time were marked "Thomas and Charles Kingsford"—sometimes we have other persons' sacks that we use—they are not very often plain—we are in the habit of filling sacks the bakers send to us—it may be that sometimes we get other persons' sacks left in our place, in exchange for our own—we have no means of knowing where the wagon and horses had been, or who had had charge of them.
WILLIAM MCCAFFERY . I reside at 7, Milton-street, and am a hassock maker—I know the prisoner—on the evening of Thursday, 27th December, I went to Mr. Brazier's shop—it was then getting on for 7 o'clock—Mr. Brazier asked me to carry a sack of flour from his bakehouse to Mr. Styles'—I did so—I placed it in front of the prisoner's doorway, on the left-hand side, in a vacant spot—I did not see any other sack of flour on the premises—the prisoner was standing at his door when I took the sack in—when I got in he said, "Here is 6d., get yourself a cup of tea or a cup of coffee"—I refused it—I said, "I do not require it, because Mr. Brazier is going to give me 6d."—he said, "Nonsense, you had better take it, William;" so I took it, but I did not take it for the want of the 6d.; I refused it several times—Mr. Brazier gave me 6d. too—I told him Mr. Styles had forced sixpence on me, and I did not require it—I was at my own shop when Brazier came to me first.
COURT. Q. Was the sack that you took marked? A. I did not notice—I took no interest in it.
The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows;—" I reserve my defence."
THE COURT considered that there was no evidence of the larceny, no witness being in attendance to prove how the wagon was loaded, or what was delivered at the City of London Union.
NOT GUILTY .
NEW COURT.—Tuesday, January 8th, 1861.
PRESENT.—SIR JAMES DUKE, Bart M.P. Aid.; Mr. Ald. CONDER; Mr. Aid.JAMES LAWRENCE; and MR. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MARY CANNON . I am servant to Mrs. Sweetlove, who keeps a wardrobe and tobacconist's shop in Great Smith-street, Westminster—on 24th December last, about 7 o'clock, the prisoner came in for the purpose of
purchasing a cloak—she was asked 3s. for it, and she agreed to pay half-a-crown—she put down a florin and 1s.—my mistress examined the money, returned the florin to her, and said it was a rank bad one—the prisoner said she had been at work, and it had been given to her in payment—she offered to take it back, and said it was a shame that poor persons should be so robbed—my mistress then gave her back the florin; the shilling was also returned to her, and she left the shop—the shilling was a good one—I followed her and saw her go into a baker's shop—I looked through the window—she asked for a half-quartern loaf—I saw the person weigh out the loaf, and saw the prisoner put down the 2s. piece—it was returned to her—she left that shop, and I followed her and saw her go into another shop, and after that into another—all the shops were near one another—I followed her to Mr. Deakin's in Great Peter-street—I afterwards went in and spoke to Mr. Deakin.
Prisoner. Q. Did I buy a loaf at the baker's shop? A. I did not see you bring away the loaf—you had one in your basket previously—you did not pay for the loaf; the florin was returned to you—you took the florin and walked out of the shop.
CHARLES DEAKIN . I keep an oil-shop at Great Peter-street, West-minster—about 7 o'clock on 24th December, the prisoner came in and asked for two candles—I served her—they came to 5d.—she paid me with a counterfeit florin—I told her it was bad, and she said she did not know it—shortly after that, the last witness came in, the prisoner being still there—she told me it was the third or fourth shop she had been into—the prisoner said she was sure she did not know it was bad, and offered then to, pay for the candles—she told me to break the florin up—she did not produce any money to pay for the candles—I bent the florin—I sent for a policeman and gave her in charge, and gave the florin to him—my shop is about two or 300 yards from Mrs. Sweetlove's.
ROBERT STAPLES . (Policeman, B 310). I took the prisoner into custody at Mr. Deakin's—he gave me this florin at the time (produced)—the prisoner said she did not know anything about its being bad, she had taken it at the place where she had been at work—she was searched at the station, and a good half-crown was found upon her.
MARY SMITH . I keep the Marquis of Granby in Castle-street—on Friday, 9th November, the prisoner came there—she asked for a pint of sixpenny ale—my daughter served her—the prisoner gave her a bad florin, and I saw my daughter give it her back again—she bad a half-crown in her hand—my daughter told her it was a bad one—the prisoner said, "Do you think I am a smasher?"—she said she did not know it was bad—my daughter asked her for the good half-crown, and she said it would not do—the beer was taken from her, and she went away—I followed her and saw her go into another public-house, called the Princess Victoria—when she came out, I went in and spoke to the landlord.
FRANCIS BATEMAN . I am the landlord of the Princess Victoria—on 9th November the prisoner came into my house, and asked for a pint of beer—she gave the barmaid a bad 2s. piece in payment in my presence—she put it in the till—there was no other there—she got the change and went away—as soon as she left, the last witness came in, and in consequence of what she said to me, I looked in the till, examined the florin, and found it was a bad one—there was nothing bigger than a sixpence in the till—I then ran after the prisoner, and brought her back—I told her she had given me a bad florin, and that I wanted my change back—she said she had taken it from
a man from the theatre, he had sent her with it after beer—I sent for a constable, and gave her in custody, and gave the florin to him—I afterwards attended at the Marlborough Police Court—the prisoner was remanded and then discharged.
WILLIAM GREEN (Policeman, E 63). The prisoner was given into my custody by the last witness, and I got from him this counterfeit florin (produced)—the prisoner gave me the name of Matilda James—I asked for her address, and she refused to give it—I found a good half-crown on her—she was remanded for a week, and then discharged.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MESSRS. COOKE and G. ELLIS conducted the Prosecution.
HENRY LEESON . I am barman at the Queen's Head, Marsham-street, Westminster—on Saturday, 22d December, between 5 and 6 in the evening, the two prisoners and two other men came in there—one of them called for a pot of porter—the female prisoner paid for it with a good fourpenny piece—the porter was drunk by three of them, and the other one had a glass of ale—they all left in company—they had been gone about half an hour, when Dyer came back alone—she called for half a quartern of gin—I served it—it came to 2 1/4 d.—she gave me a bad shilling—I told her it was bad—she said, "I don't think it is, try it in the detector"—I said I was sure it was bad, and asked where she got it—she said, "I might have got it here when I was here before"—I said, "You did not have it here, because you paid me with a fourpenny bit, so that you had no change"—she said, "Give it me back," and I said I would not—she was then going to drink the gin, and I said, "Don't drink the gin, you have not paid for it"—she then said, "I will pay the gin down," and put a farthing on the counter, and picked it up again—she opened her right hand, and I saw another shilling in her hand—upon that I sent for my master, and a policeman was sent for—my master went round the counter to detain her—just after that, and before the policeman came, the other prisoner came into the public-house, and Dyer said, "Here is my husband; let me go and speak to him"—my master said, "If he wants to see you, let him come here"—as the constable came in, I saw the man go up towards the woman—when he did so, she turned round with her back to him, and I noticed her putting her hands behind her—his face was towards her back, and his hand held out—I went between them, and touched the back of the woman's hand, and a glove dropped out from her hand into mine—upon that my master said to the policeman, "Look out, she is passing something to that man behind"—I said, "She has made a mistake, for she has given it to me"—the constable then took her to the station, and I followed with the had shilling, and the glove with something in it—I did not open the glove till I got to the station and then I found sixteen counterfeit shillings and a half-crown in it—they were taken possession of by the constable, and I gave him the had shilling I bad taken from the female prisoner—the male prisoner came to the station while I was there—I heard the inspector say to him, "What relation are you to this woman?"—he said, "She is my wife"—he was then detained—I have no doubt of his being the man who was in the public-house.
Dyer. Did I not give the glove without turning my back? A. No—you did not say anything about picking up the glove at the other part of the bar—I had seen you there before.
WILLIAM PARKIN (Policeman, B 313). I was sent for to the Queen's Head on 22d December—I found both of the prisoners there—the man was on the left of the woman, a little behind her—she had her back to him—he was facing her back, and I saw her put her left hand behind her with something in it, and I saw the man's arm go behind her, but could not see his hand—I saw his arm move, and saw something dark in the woman's hand—the landlord shouted out, "She is putting something behind her," and Lesson shouted out, "I have got it," or something like that, and held up a glove—I took the woman to the station—the man came there in about a quarter of an hour—I heard him say the woman was his wife—this is the glove with the sixteen shillings and a counterfeit half-crown (produced)—I found ten of the shillings wrapped up in separate pieces of paper, and six more wrapped up in another long piece of paper separately—the half-crown was wrapped up in a paper by itself—this is the bad shilling that was given to me by Lesson (produced)—after the male prisoner said that the woman was his wife, the inspector ordered him to be detained, and directed me to lock him up—while I was locking him up he denied all knowledge of the woman, and said he had not been at the Queen's Head—I said he was the man I did see there—I searched him and found a florin, 3s., a 6d., and 7d. in copper, all good money—2 1/4 d. was found on the woman.
Connor. Q. Why did you not take me in custody when you saw me attempting to take the glove at the Queen's Head? A. The woman refused to go to the station, and it was as much as I could do to take her—there were a great many people there—you had some sausages in your hand, I believe.
GEORGE EASON . I am landlord of the Queen's Head—I was there when this woman was at the bar, and when the barman caught hold of a glove—Connor is the man who came in, he had some sausages in his right hand.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . This shilling is counterfeit—ten of the shillings are wrapped up in folded paper as they always are to keep, them from rubbing—these have never been in circulation—they come direct from the coiner's as they are here—all the coins found in the glove are bad, and four from the same mould—the half-crown is counterfeit.
The prisoner Connor put in a written defence stating that he met two men and the woman, went into a public-house with them and had some beer, which the paid for, then he left' them and returned soon afterwards and found the woman in custody, and followed her to the station, where he was detained.
Dyer's Defence. I know nothing about it, whether I had the bad money or not.
CONNOR— GUILTY .**
DYER— GUILTY .**
Confined Eighteen Months.
MR. G. ELLIS conducted the Prosecution.
SUSANNAH KEEN . My husband keeps a tobacconist's shop in College-street North, Camden-town—on 22d December last, about half past 5 in the evening, the prisoner came in and asked for half an ounce of bird's-eye—I served him—it came to 2d. and he paid me with a florin—I noticed it was a bad one and bent it—I told him it was bad, and he said it was a bad job—he paid me with a good shilling and I gave him back the florin—he tried to straighten it with his teeth—I saw him put another florin into his waistcoat pocket—I saw it was bad—he then left the shop with the florin he had given me in his hand—I afterwards spoke to David
Pratt, who lives next door to me, and pointed out the prisoner to him—he went after him—a police-sergeant brought him back to me, and showed me a bad florin—it was the same florin that I had bent.
Prisoner. Q. When I gave you the florin you gave me 10d. change first, before you said anything about the money being bad? A. Yes, and then I tried it with my teeth—I went to a cupboard behind to get a shilling to make the change.
COURT. Q. Where did he take the other coin from, that he put in his pocket? A. I did not notice.
DAVID PRATT . I live at 25, College-street North—on 22d December, in consequence of something the last witness told me, I followed the prisoner and spoke to a policeman, who took him in charge—I saw him take hold of the prisoner's hand, and then from his hand the prisoner dropped a two-shilling piece, sixpence, and a farthing, that was all I saw—I picked up the florin, after I came back with a light—I was about a minute fetching the light—I gave the florin to the policeman.
WILLIAM HILL (Policeman, S 39). In consequence of what Pratt said to me, I took the prisoner into custody—I asked him what he had done with a two-shilling piece which he had tendered at a tobacconist's shop in College-street—he said, "I don't know what you mean"—I then caught hold of his right hand, and took from it a two-shilling piece, a half-crown, one shilling, and sixpence in coppers—the florin was bad and the others were good—this is the florin (produced)—I was going to search his left hand pocket after I had searched his right, and he immediately took his right hand out of his right pocket, and as I caught it, something dropped on the pavement—Pratt picked up sixpence and a farthing, and I picked up a penny—I said, "There was something else dropped," and directed Pratt to go for a candle—he came back and picked up this florin (produced)—I said to the prisoner, "This is a case, it is no use to tell me you did not tender the florin"—he said, "I did; I got it in change for a sovereign, but where I got the sovereign changed I can't say"—I showed one of the florins to Mrs. Keen after that, and she identified it as the one that had been tendered to her.
Prisoner. Q. Will you swear that I said at the beginning that I did not tender the florin to Mrs. Keen? A. You said you did not know what I meant—the money did not roll out of my hand—the dropping of the money from your hand was not accidental—I could not find anything about your character—you referred me to Mr. Burton, 8, Greek-street, Soho—I went there, and they did not know you—I asked if Francis Robert Kirby had been working there—they said, No, he did not work there—I said, "Has he been working here?" and they said "No"—I went to your lodgings in White Lion-street and made enquiries—I went to Rymer's in Nassau-street, and you had been working there; you had left some two months before—I found that you told me properly about Mr. Rymer in Nassau-street—I had no opportunity of speaking to you at the police-court—you said you had received a sovereign from Mr. Rymer—I went to Mr. Rymer's to ascertain if that was true—I did not see Mr. Rymer, but I saw another man, and he said he did not know whether it was so or not—I gave a description of you at the lodging-house—I saw the landlady—I asked her whether she knew anything about your being there and buying some boots of a man, and she said, "No."
MR. ELLIS. Q. I understand that he told you he had got the change for the sovereign? A. Yes, but said he did not know where he got it.
Prisoner's Defence. I have been getting my living honestly. I have been living at Mr. Barton's for some months, and I left of my own accord; a friend of my father's when he went to Australia, left 10l. between my brother and myself; my brother, who is ill, has had 5l., and I have had 2l. 15s. Mr. Rymer pays it to us; if the policeman had gene the proper way to work I should have got a good character; they seem to have pressed the case as much as they could against me.
NOT GUILTY .
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
141. SARAH TREADWELL (12), EMMA WALDEN (12), and ANN BURKE (9) , Stealing divers monies, value 1s. 6 1/2 d., from the person of Mary Lillesen, Emma Waldenhaving been previously convicted of felony, to which they
PLEADED GUILTY .
Confined Six Months each.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Judgment Respited.
143. WILLIAM BAKER (16) , Stealing 6 orders for the payment of 18l. 3s. 9d., 6l. 1s., 6l. 14s. 2d., 2l. 2s., 2l. 18s. 10d., and 3l. 15s. 9d., six pieces of paper, and the sum of 21. in money, the property of >John Chase Craddock and another, his masters; to which he
PLEADED GUILTY The prosecutor recommended him to mercy, stating that the stolen notes had been changed on each occasion by another person, and not by the prisoner.—Judgment Respited. .
MR. M'DONNELL conducted the Prosecution; and MR. LEWIS the Defence.
NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT.—Wednesday, January 9th, 1861.
PRESENT—The Rt. Hon. the LORD MAYOR; Mr. Justice BLACKBURN; Mr. Ald. COPELAND; SIR FRANCIS GRAHAM MOON, Bart. Ald; Mr. Ald.
CONDER; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.
145. LEWIS ROBERT POOLE (30), FREDERICK WALTER VENTRIS (34), and THOMAS CHAPMAN (33), were indicted for that the said Lewis Robert Poole, and one Samuel Bryan, having been adjudged bankrupts, they (the prisoners) did afterwards feloniously remove, conceal, and embezzle a portion of the personal estate of the said bankrupts with intent to defraud the creditors.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE,with MESSRS. HOLL and HARRISON, conducted the Prosecution.
—I produce the proceedings in the bankruptcy of Poole and Bryan—I have the petition here, it is dated 23d August, 1860—the adjudication bears the same date—I have the other proceedings here; the appointment of the assignees, the Statutory declaration of the bankrupt, and the examinations that followed.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST (with MR. POLAND for Poole). Q. All the bankruptcy proceedings are in that book, I suppose? A. They are.
THOMAS BEARD . I reside at Brinnerton, near Chesterfield—I was in the service of the bankrupts, Poole and Bryan—they carried on business as manufacturers of boots and shoes at Northampton, their warehouse was in Bull Head-lane, Northampton—on 13th August last, the workmen left their service—they were told by Poole not to come till 18th, when they were to come for their money—he told them that on the Saturday night, but it was on the Monday morning, the 13th, when the work people were stopped working—they worked till just before dinner, then they gave over, and did not return after dinner—they did not return till the 18th, when they came for their money—when they went away on the Monday morning, the warehouse was closed for the workmen, excepting Poole, Chapman, myself, Woodford, and Ventris—Ventris was not there on 13th—I and Woodford remained in the service of the bankrupts—on that day, the 13th, I received orders from Mr. Poole (MR. METCALFE here desired to take the opinion of the Court upon the question of jurisdiction, which must arise in this case, as most of the facts to be proved in evidence, occurred at Northampton. MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN considered it would be impossible to entertain that question until the close of the case for the protecution.) On 13th Poole ordered Woodford and I to go into the shoe-room of the factory at Northampton, and help him to pack a lot of trunks with boots—they were Wellington boots, and spring-sides, and half Wellingtons as well—we packed ten trunks—Poole then ordered us to load them in the van and to take them to Mr. Pearce's house in Castilian-street, Northampton—Woodford and I took them there and left them—afterwards on the same day I had orders from Poole to go to Earls Barton, that is about seven miles from Northampton—he ordered me to fetch away all the work that the agent, Mr. Stone, had got ready—I went with a van, and took a large hamper, packed a large hamper—I received a large hamper of goods from Mr. Stone at Earls Barton, containing Wellington boots, half Wellingtons and Bluchers, I think—Poole ordered me to take the hamper to Thomas Chapman's at Kingsthorpe when I got it from Stone—I took the hamper to Chapman's, and left it there—Kingsthorpe is near Northampton—Chapman was there when I left the hamper, and he had it put in his coach-house—it was about 8 o'clock in the evening when I got there—I saw Poole at Northampton when I returned with the horse and van—I told him I had taken the hamper to Thomas Chapman' s, and he then told me that he wanted me to go to London the next morning—that would be the 14th August—I went to London—no one went with me—I saw Poole in London; when I got into New Oxford-street I saw him with a gentleman—I returned to Northampton on 15th, between 5 and 6 in the evening—when I got back I went to Mr. Poole's house in George' s-street—I saw Poole, Chapman, and Ventris there—Poole gave me the keys of the factory—Chapman was present, but Ventris was in the parlour—Chapman gave me orders to go to the factory and to pack a lot of trunks, as many as I thought would fill the van—Poole and Chapman were together when I got those directions—Mr. Poole gave me orders to take Woodford with me to assist me—we packed between seven and eight trunks, I can' t say exactly—we packed them at
the factory with Wellington boots, and Bluchers, and half Wellingtons, and spring sides—Woodford and Poole and Chapman assisted me—after we had packed them, Poole ordered us to load them in the van, and Chapman gave us orders to take them to his house at Kingsthorpe—we took them there—Chapman told us we were not to go on the Kingsthorpe-road, that we were to go on the Kettering-road—Woodford and Poole were present when he told me that—the Kingsthorpe-road is the direct road—I should say it is about three miles to go round by the Kettering-road, and about a mile or a little over by the Kingsthorpe-road.
THE COURT. Q. Do you mean that the Kingsthorpe-road is three miles altogether, or three miles longer? A. It would be about two miles longer than the other road.
MR. HOLL. Q. About what time was it when you left the factory with those goods? A. About 10 o'clock in the evening; we left those goods at Chapman's—he was there when we left them—we saw Poole when we re-turned from Kingsthorpe—we told him we had delivered the goods—on the morning of the following day, Thursday, the 16th, I saw Poole, Chapman, Ventris, and Woodford at the factory—I was ordered to go there—Poole ordered us to go into the shoe-room of the factory to assist him and Chapman in packing some more trunks of goods—we packed twenty trunks on that occasion—Poole, and Chapman, Woodford, myself, and Ventris were present during the time, but Ventris did not assist in packing those trunks—he was present when we were packing them—we were backwards and forwards in the factory up to about 12 o'clock at night—after we had packed them, Poole ordered us to load them in the van, and Chapman gave us orders to take them to his house at Kingsthorpe—we had one van and a light spring cart—we took them to Chapman's at Kingsthorpe—Woodford drove the cart and I drove the van—we left the goods at Chapman's in the coach-house where we put the others—we got there about half-past 12—we had orders to go on the Kingsthorpe-road that night—we saw Chapman at Kingsthorpe when we got there with the goods—we saw Poole on our return, at his house—we told him we had delivered the goods at Chapman's—he said, he, and Chapman, and Ventris, were going to London the next day—I did not see them go to London—I was to be at Poole's house that night, when they returned from London—Poole gave me those orders—that was on Friday night,' the 17th—I saw Poole, Chapman, and Ventris that night, between 10 and 11 o'clock, and Poole gave us orders to be at the factory on the next morning, the 18th—I saw Poole on 19th at his house, at 9 o'clock in the morning—he gave us orders to go to Chapman's house, but we were not to go before night—Woodford was with me then—we went about 6 o'clock on that Sunday night—we saw Chapman at his house—he took us into his kitchen and we remained there till 11 that night—Chapman told us that he had taken a barn of one of his neighbours to put his horse in, and said he wanted to put the goods out of his coach-house, into the bam—he did not mention the name of the person from whom he had rented the barn he told me to pick up a trunk and follow him and he would show me where the barn was, and he did show it me—there were about twenty-seven trunks and a hamper—they were all moved to the barn—there were no other parcels of goods, only the trunks and the hamper—I know the gentleman to whom the barn belongs, when I see him again—we left the goods in the barn—we got back to Northampton a little after 2—it took from about 11 till about 2 to move the goods from the coach-house to the barn—we did not see Poole when we got back to Northampton, he was in bed.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. How long have you been in Poole's employ? A. About two years—I used to look after his horses, take work out, and fetch work in; I was pretty good friends with him for what I know—I was no more than a servant—I was in the habit of taking goods to his agents.
Q. How do you know the dates at which you took out these articles? A. Because I have them down in a pocket-book—I have not got it with me, a gentleman has got it—I am sure I don't know his name—I gave it up at Guildhall—I made the first note in that book on the 13th—no one was present when I made any of those entries, except it was my family at home—I have not made any other entry of any other things I ever took out for the prisoner—I made that because I thought it was my duty to do so—I thought it was rather a rum time of night for a servant to shift away things as I was ordered to shift—it was after dinner on the 13th that I shifted them—I am speaking of the other times at night—there was nothing extraordinary on the Monday that made me put it down—I am quite sure I put it down at the time—I put the second down on the 14th—I made the note at night in London—I took my book with me—no one was present when I made it—I made the next on the 15th, at my own house—my wife was present—I did not say anything to her at the time I put it down—she did not ask me what I was doing—I don't think she ever saw me put down things before; she might have done—the next one would be on 16th—I can't exactly tell you how long it is since I saw this book—this is it (produced)—I should think it must be getting on for two months since I saw it—I can remember the next day, it was the 17th, and the next day 18th, the next 19th, the next 20th—there was no more—I have never given to Mr. Dawson a different account of the day on which I removed these goods—I am certain of that—I went to Mr. Dawson's office—I can't tell on what date—Poole, and his father, and Dawson were there—a man of the name of Jameson was not there—Mr. Dawson asked me some questions about removing away the goods—I replied to some of them—I signed my name to something—this (looking at a paper) is not my signature—it is my name, but it is not my writing—I am certain of that—I have not sworn before that it was my writing—I mean positively to swear it is not my writing, and that I stick to—I am quite sure about it—the signature at the bottom is my writing.
Q. Did you never give the following statement to Mr. Dawson in language, "I have been in the employ of Messrs. Poole and Co. as carter; "that you admit, I suppose? A. It never was put to me; not even that question—I did not say this to Mr. Dawson, "I have been in the employ of Messrs. Poole and Co., as carter, and was so up to 18th August last:" nor this, "I recollect on 11th July last, receiving orders from Mr. Poole to convey some trunks from the warehouse to Mr. Chapman's, at Kingsthorpe"—I never said, "I remember on the forenoon of that day seeing a gentleman, I believe Mr. Cooke, of Walsall"—I never said "in conversation with Mr. Poole"—I never said, "And I understood at the time that he was purchasing a large quantity of shoes"—I never said, "I loaded a van with the trunks and conveyed them to Kingsthorpe,"—I told Mr. Dawson I took some things to Kingsthorpe, but I did not say in July—I did not say, "I delivered them up to Mr. Chapman and Mr. Chapman signed a receipt which I handed to Mr. Poole:" nor did I say, "I did not count the number of trunks, but I think there were about twenty-six"—I mentioned the hamper, I think; I think there was a hamper mentioned—I never said, "There were in all three loads '—I never told him how I took them—I did not say, "The last load left about
half-past 6"—I never said a word about time, I am quite sure—I remember being before the Magistrate—I am sure I do not know whether Mr. Dawson was taken into custody in consequence of the questions you then asked me—I mean to say that I do not know that—I left Mr. Poole's employ on 20th August—I staid in Northampton till 1st October, and then I went down to Walsall—I left Northampton, because of a situation that Poole and Chapman got me, in the employ of Mr. Cooke—I was engaged to look after his horse—I had not been committing an assault on a person of the name of Newton before I left Northampton—I came back to Northampton on 4th October—I have been summoned for an assault on Mr. Derby—I think that summons was before I left Northampton—I did not go away from Northampton in consequence of that—I do not know whether Derby is a brother-in-law of Mr. Newton's—Poole and Chapman got me the situation to go to Mr. Cooke's; I went there and staid till 3d October, when I came to Birmingham—I left because I had not sufficient—I had no money with me to get a competency for my wife and family—Mr. Cooke did not discharge me, I discharged myself—I could not go to work when I had no food for myself and family, and no money with me—the work I had to do was to look after the horse and do the work—how could I begin to work when I had not a farthing in my pocket, and a wife and four children to keep?—I asked Mr. Cooke for what Poole and Chapman wrote to him to advance me—Chapman and Poole wrote two letters; they told me they had written to Cooke to advance me a few pounds so as to give my wife and family a start when I got to Walsall—I went on 1st October but did not see Mr. Cooke till 3d—I delivered a letter that Chapman gave me to him, and told him what Chapman and Poole had told me about writing the letters; he told me that was all nonsense, he should not advance me anything of the kind, and I could not begin to work because I had no home or money—I went away because my furniture and things were at Northampton, and Poole was to send them after me.
Q. You did not feel very well disposed towards Mr. Cooke in consequence of that, I suppose 1 A. I did not feel anything about Mr. Cooke—I did not stay because I had no things or furniture—I went to Birmingham and I staid there that night—I had an aunt at Birmingham—it is no more than eight or nine miles to Birmingham—I walked there—I got back to Northampton on Thursday, 4th October, I think—I did not see Poole after that at all to my knowledge—I think I next saw him in the Court—I never saw him to have anything at all to say to him—I was offended with him as far as this, that I thought it was a rascally thing to throw me and my family adrift and break up my home, to send me away to a situation, and then when I got to Walsall to have no home or anything—I have never said I would make Poole pay for it, I am certain of that—I know Burnell he is a chimney sweeper at Northampton—he began to fight with me—I never said to him, if I did not get 20l. out of Poole it would be the worse for him, or any one else, I am quite sure of that—I never said to Burnell I would make Poole pay for this, nor anything of the sort"—I never made any threat of that sort to any one.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE (With MR. PALMER for Ventris). Q. On Saturday, 18th, did you see Ventris paying the work people? A. I did—there were a great number of work people to be paid—the payment commenced about 10 o'clock and did not finish till between 4 and 5, I should say, it was not so late as 7—as far as I understood, Mr. Pearce gave a cheque for the money, but I did not see him give it—Ventris went to Mr.
Pearce's office but I did not go with him; Woodford went to show him where it was—there were some bales of leather sold or exchanged or something to get money to pay the work people—Ventris went to Mr. Pearce's after dinner, but I am sure I cannot tell you exactly what time it was—he went to the office after we had taken the two bales of leather—Mr. Pearce is an auctioneer at Northampton.
Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE (with MR. SLEIGH for Chapman). Q. How long have you known Chapman? A. I should say better than a year—I do not live near him—he lives about a mile from my residence, or it may be a little more—I did not know that he was agent to Mr. Cooke of Walsall—I never heard that before—I have heard it in the statements that have been made—I did not know that he was agent to Mr. Cooke, for I did not know anything about Mr. Chapman's affairs, or Cooke's either—I believe Chapman was a cripple for some time—he had broken his leg—he went backwards and forwards in his carriage—I have seen him riding backwards and forwards, and I have seen him with a crutch a time or two—the last time I saw him at Poole's factory was on 18th August—I have seen him often since then—I have seen him with Poole many times walking in the street—I have seen them a time or two playing cricket together—I did not remain with Mr. Cooke at Walsall more than twenty minutes at the outside, if I remained that—I believe Mr. Cooke is a currier—I know a person of the name of William Burnell, a chimney sweeper—I know about 18th August when I and Woodford and Ventris removed a lot of bags of leather for Poole, that was the time we took the last load—I did not take a bag of leather to my own house on 20th August or 21st—I swear I never took a bag of leather to my house—I never asked Burnell if he would buy some offal leather of me; it is not likely I should ask a man like that—I never said anything about the leather to him—I never said anything to him about the bailiffs, that they would have it, and that I must make what I could—there is not a word of truth in that—I never said such a thing to him—I never told Burnell that the things I had taken to Chapman's at Kingsthorpe I had taken weeks before the failure—I never had a word with him about it—I never told him that I had taken them to Chapman's as agent to Mr. Cooke—Mr. Poole kept a gig and two or three traps—he had some lamps to the traps—I used to clean them—I know about an old pair of lamps; they are at Northampton now, at Mr. Fox's, in Bay wood-street—I and Woodford took them there; we sold them—Mr. Poole gave them to us—they were a pair of old lamps that were about, and Mr. Poole told us we might as well make a drop of beer of them as let Chapman take them, because if we did not take them Chapman would—we sold them to a man of the name of Fox—I do not know whether it was 7s. 6d. or 10s. we got for them—I should not know the lamps again if I was to see them—I have been in Poole's service about two years—I attended to the traps for about a twelvemonth, I should say—I mean to say I should not know the lamps belonging to the trap again—we got 10s. for the pair—I never had any other pair—we had only two pair of lamps—I think you will find that the other pair was sent with a dog-cart to a carriage builder named Davis, at Northampton, on the Saturday when he was telling his men he should not be able to keep them on any more—Poole did not ask me about those lamps—he did not speak to me about the first pair; the pair we sold to Fox—I never told Mr. Poole that a man named Johnson had had them—I know Johnson; he is father-in-law to Mr. Poole's housekeeper or lady, whatever you may call her; you can't call her his housekeeper exactly—I have not lived in Mr. Poole's house, but
I have sisters who have lived there as servants to Mr. Poole—I should say one sister lived there six or seven months, it may be more or less—I have nothing else I should like to say about the housekeeper; what I have said I can prove—I think I know Mr. Saunders—he lives in the horse market and has repaired Mr. Poole's things when they broke—I never offered a pair of lamps for sale to Mr. Saunders—I know something about some curtains—I know that Mr. Chapman took them—I had no curtains—I never took any curtains from Poole—I never took any property belonging to Mr. Poole to my house, only the lamps, and those he gave me—I do not know whether those (produced) are the curtains, but they are the same colour—Woodford's wife made the curtains for the office—I never took them from the office—I don't know a Mr. Lane; I never heard the name before—I remember the All England Cricket Match being played at Northampton on 22d September—I did not on that day go to any public-house and leave a pair of curtains—I never had the curtains, because Chapman took good care I did not have them—he took the curtains and the weighing scales, and writing paper, and every little thing he could set his hands on—we had not a chance of getting anything, they looked too sharp after us—I do not know a person of the name of Fainson, a pawnbroker of 26, Mayor Hill, Northampton—I do not know any pawnbroker of that name—this is my book (produced)—I bought it in 1859—I am certain of that—I do not remember what day or what time—I cannot tell you what part of the year it was in, or in what month, but I know it was in 1859—I bought it at Northampton—I cannot tell you the shop—I bought it for my own proper use—I began to use it on 13th August—the other things have been done some time—the first entry I made in the book was on 13th—there are very few entries in it—there are some other things down which have nothing at all to do with the affair—I put this down in August, and this was put down in August, and I put the other down in September, the 22d, when Poole came to me about my situation with Cooke—the 13th of August was the first time I made any entry in the book—I kept the book at home at my house—these entries were not all made at the same time: they were all made at separate times, that I swear, on different days—I know a person of the name of Holmes, who lives next door to me—I do not know her Christian name—I only know her as Holmes—I do not know whether Kate Holmes is the daughter of the person—I do not know a person of the name of Bates, in the Drapery, Northampton—I do not know whether there is a bookseller's or a stationer's in the Drapery—I know very few persons at Northampton—I did not in September last send my daughter to purchase a book in Northampton, because I have not a child old enough to go and purchase a book—I never sent anyone with her—my child is about six years old—I never sent her with Kate Holmes—I know what became of the office furniture—I have two chairs of the office furniture—Ventris and Chapman had the office clocks, at least Chapman had the office clock, and Ventris the clock up stairs—I packed them for them—I packed Mr. Ventris's in his trunk that he had taken to Kingsthorpe, and Mr. Chapman had the other clock out of the office on the Thursday—I know Lines, another chimneysweeper, he lives close by—I never sold him a clock in my life—I have not dealt in leather on my own account at Northampton—I know very little about leather—my proper job is hammering for blacksmiths—I never dealt in leather at all, and never sold any in Northampton in my life.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How was it you went to Mr. Dawson's office? A. Mr. Poole ordered me to go there—Mr. Dawson is a solicitor at Northampton—when I got there I found Poole, his father, and Mr. Dawson
—Poole's father is the person they call "Captain Pools"—whatever statement I made, Poole and his father were present when I made it—there were about six or seven trunks, and five bags of loose leather, taken to Pearce's on the 18th—I should think it was between 10 and 11, or from that to 12, when we took the two loads—we took a load at night to Pearce's place, but we did not deliver it there—we delivered it at Poole's house, in the stable belonging to his house—it was after these goods had been delivered at Pearce's, that the wages were paid—there were thirteen bales of leather taken in the morning and delivered to him at his warehouse—I should think it was between 10 and 11, from that to 12, when we had done taking the load: and after dinner Ventris went to the office, and when he returned he began to pay the men their wages—there were no other goods taken to Pearce's after that—some goods were to be taken, but they were not delivered—that was on the same day, after the wages had been paid—it was the work that they took in—I know how it happened that they were not left at Pearce's—Mr. Ventris came to me and Woodford, as I had hold of my horse's head and Woodford was with the van, and told us we were watched, and that we must give the watchers a good chase—that was between 10 and 11 on Saturday night—in consequence of those directions of Ventris, I took the goods back to Mr. Poole's house, 17, George's-street, and Poole had them put into his stable belonging to the house—Poole and Ventris were both there—they were put into the stable.
MR. METCALFE. Q. When did you first say anything about these transactions to anybody? A. On 8th October—I made the entries in the memo randum-book on 13th August, because I thought it was suspicious—I thought I might be called on some day or other to answer what I had done, and I put the dates down so that I might know—I entered the first removal of the goods—the entry of 13th August was made on that day—these entries were not all made at one time—I swear that this page was not written all at the same time—I wrote them day by day—I was in the service and I thought it nothing but right that I should do so—I did not say on a former occasion that I bought this book expressly to make the entries—I don't think anybody saw me make the entries, except it was my wife—Woodford did not see me make any of the entries: he knew that I had them—I first showed the entries to Mr. Dennis—I told Mr. Dennis of my entries—he is Mr. Newton's solicitor—I had my entries with me when I went to Mr. Dennis on 8th October—I don't know that I showed them to anyone before that—Woodford knew I had the book, and he knew I had the entries down—Woodford and I have not been much together since these transactions—he was working at Leicester, and I am working about eighty miles from him—we were constantly together in removing the goods.
Q. Did MR. DEUNIS first come to you, or did you first go to him? A. We went to him—I and Woodford went together—Woodford might have seen the book—I won't be certain to that—Mr. Newton has not given me any money—he never gave us any—he has not paid a loan for me—I have had a loan from a loan society—Mr. Newton has not paid up that money for me: I owe it now—no one has paid it except the gentleman who stood my security—I have got him to pay it, and I believe he is paying it now—there was a summons against me for an assault—Mr. Newton had nothing to do with that—he did not withdraw the summons and pay my debts—I acknowledged I was in fault for what I had done—the summons must have been withdrawn—I did not attend to it—my debts were not paid by Mr. Newton, the debt is owing now—I am certain it was not paid—I do not owe any debts but
the one—none of my debts were paid after I had given evidence—they have not been paid since—the loan society debt is owing now—I owe it to the man who stood my security—I mean to say that my debts have not been paid off for me since I gave my evidence to Mr. Newton: not any—I will swear that not a word was said about paying my debts—I cannot swear whether they have paid them without saying anything, because they are at Northampton and I am here, 100 miles off—I have not had any claim upon me since that—I will swear that I do not know that anyone has paid my debt, not to my knowledge, it is owing now—I know I owe it to the man who stood my security, he came to me when I was at Northampton—I do not think he knows where I am, where I am working, I not having left any address—I told him as soon as I got in a situation I would pay him, but it has not been in my power to pay him.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How much was this debt? A. It was a 5l. loan, which Jameson bought of me for 1l.—I received 2l. and he had 2l.—Jameson signed his name to a paper, that if I did not pay it he would pay it himself—Jameson is not the person who is my security now; it is a gentleman who lives in Bay wood-street—I cannot tell you his name now—he is well known in Baywood-street—I had no connexion with him—I had never spoken to him before—Jameson got me the security—that is the only debt I owe—I had been in Poole's service about two years—before that I worked for the General Steam Navigation Company, in London—I left that on purpose to go to Poole's—I worked there for six or seven years—I had the loan before I left Poole's employment—I paid it until I was out of work and then I was unable to pay it.
MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Did you, in the latter part of August, burn any letter belonging to the bankrupt? A. No; I never did.
JOHN WOODFORD . I have been living at Leicester lately; but I formerly lived at Northampton—I was in the employ of Messrs. Poole and Bryan, as carpenter—I believe I left on 20th August last—I recollect 13th August last—Mr. Poole gave me some orders on that day—he discharged all the men except me and Beard; and he ordered us to go into the shoe-room to pack a quantity of trunks with boots and shoes—we packed them—we had orders to take them to Mr. Pearce's house, in Castilian-street, Northampton—we took them and left them there—I recollect 15th August—I had orders to go up to Mr. Poole's house on that day—as I was going up I met Beard, and he said he had orders to tell me to go and assist him in packing more trunks with boots and shoes—we packed them—as we were packing them Poole and Chapman came down, and Chapman ordered us to take them to his house at Kingsthorpe—Poole was present when Chapman said that—we took them to Kingsthorpe, but we went a round about way there; not on the regular road—we went up the Wellingborough-road—that is not the Kettering-road—there are two roads, the Wellingborough-road and the Kettering-road—we took the goods to Chapman's and left them there; he received them of us—we returned to Northampton that night, and, on our return, we saw Mr. Poole, and told him where we had taken the goods, and he ordered us to be at the factory the next morning—we went there the next morning—I saw Ventris, Poole, and Chapman there, all three together in the office—we received orders from Ventris to burn some papers in the furnace—after we had burnt the papers Poole gave us orders to go in the shoe-room, where we were to assist in packing some more trunks with boots and shoes—we packed a great quantity of trunks—we were all the day about it—in the evening we went to the factory, after we had packed
them—we had orders, both from Poole and Chapman, to take them to Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe—Ventris was present during the whole of the day—he was in the shoe-room with us whilst we were packing the trunks with boots and shoes—we took them to Kingsthorpe in two loads—Beard drove the van; I drove the cart—that was about 12 o'clock at night; not directly after the packing—we left them at Chapman' s, and Chapman directed us to put them in the coach-house, where we had put the others the evening before—we put them there—I had orders from Ventris, the same night, to take a covered trunk to the Brampton station, directed to his name, somewhere in Islington—that was one that we took to Chapman's with the others—it was one of those packed in the factory, but Ventris brought the goods to pack it with; they were the same sort of goods as the others in the factory—Ventris ordered me to be at Mr. Poole's house early the next morning, and get a horse and cart, and take the covered trunk that we had taken to Chapman that evening, to Brampton station—I took it there—it was directed to London; I was to deliver it to the station-master to send it to London—next morning I took the trunk from Chapman' s, and Chapman went with me to the Brampton station—I gave it to the station-master—Chapman said he was going to London—I did not see Chapman get into the train—I started away before the train came in—on 18th August we took two loads of butts, or bales of leather, to Mr. Pearce' s—it was mid-day when we took the butts—we took some in the evening—after they were packed, Mr. Poole ordered us to take them to Mr. Pearce's warehouse, where we had taken the butts at mid-day—Ventris was there when he gave us the order—we started with the goods—we did not take them to Pearce's, as we were taking them Ventris came to us and told us that we were watched and that we were to give the parties a chase—after that we did not take the goods to Pearce' s—Beard went on with the van; I remained behind—I saw those goods afterwards, at Mr. Poole's private residence in St George's street—Beard and Bellingham drove out with those very goods next Monday morning—on the 19th we went to Chapman' s—we had orders to be there at 6 o'clock in the evening—we remained there till about midnight, when Chapman came and told us that he wanted us to remove those goods that we had brought in the week time, to a neighbour's barn that he had hired to put a horse in—we removed them to this neighbour's barn—they were the same goods that we had taken in the week time—we removed the whole of them.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. I suppose you knew that you were doing wrong all the time you were moving these things? A. No, I did not know it was wrong—I first thought it wrong, when I was told in the public streets that I had done wrong—that might have been a fortnight after 19th August—I did not go to any one, and give information about it; because I wanted to see whether I had done wrong or not—I wanted to see Mr. Poole, to see whether I had done wrong or not—I cannot tell the day of the month when I gave information—it might have been the latter end of September or beginning of October; I cannot say which—I had seen Beard several times between 19th August, and the time I gave information—we had talked very little indeed about this—we went together when we gave the information—we went to Mr. Newton—I believe it was Beard that spoke first to him; I do not think I said anything at all to him—I stood by and looked on—I do not think Beard had a book with him—I cannot recollect whether he mentioned the dates to Mr. Newton, of the days which the goods were removed—he told him about the removal of
goods, but I cannot say whether or not he said the dates at which they were removed—I did not remain at Northampton from the time I left Poole's employ, up to this present time—we were sent up to Mr. Van Sandau—I had remained at Northampton up to the time of my going to Mr. Newton—after that I went to look for work at several places; Leicester for one place—I got employment there—I remained there two or three days—I got employment, and I have been there since—the first time I came up to town was directly after we gave information to Mr. Newton; I think I said about the beginning of October—we were then brought to town, and we then saw Mr. Van Sandau—I cannot say whether the account I gave him, was in exactly the same words that I have given to-day, but it was similar—Beard and myself came to town together—I cannot say whether we talked about it on the road—I saw Poole several times in Northampton, after I left his employ—I had very little conversation with him—I never asked him to give me any money—I was not well off when I left his employ—I am sure I do not know how much money I bad when I left him; not enough to keep me—I worked at my trade—I never asked Poole for any money—I am sure of that—I know a person of the name of Young, of Northampton—he was a shopmate of mine—I never saw Poole when Young was present, that I am aware of—I never had a little quarrel with Poole, in the presence of Young—I am sure that I never said to Poole, in the presence of Young, that unless he came to terms with me, I would play hell with him; I swear that; but Young said that if I did not receive 15l. or 20l. I should be to blame—I suppose Young had heard the particular circumstances of the case—I do not know now what I said to that—I might have made a remark upon that, but I cannot recollect it—I did not say, "Come, Mr. Poole, I will peach upon you," or anything of that sort, "if you do not come to terms"—10l. or 20l. would have been very acceptable, but I did not have it—there are several Pearces at Northampton—I know Mr. Pearce, the auctioneer, to whom I took the goods—I never talked to him about the goods that I know of—we went there, because we were abused in the public streets by Poole and Chapman—we told him that as he was a friend of Mr. Poole's, would he be so good as to ask him why we were abased in the public streets, and we did not know what for—I am quite sure we did not say anything else to him.
Q. Did not Mr. Pearce say to you, "If you think to come and intimidate me to get money from me, you have come to the wrong place? A. I believe those were his words—I said to him, "I believe you are too much of a business man, to be intimidated by two poor men like us"—we did not go to intimidate him, nothing of the sort—I have been in the army very nearly two years—Mr. Poole advanced the money for me to get out of the army, on the condition that I should pay him back again—I have paid him part of it back again.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. You say a quantity of goods were packed on the 16th, and were afterwards, about 12 o'clock at night, taken away; after you had packed the goods, did you leave them packed in the warehouse, and go away for some time before you removed them? A. Yes, I believe we went to get some refreshment—it might have been an hour that we left—Poole was present when Ventris told me to take the trap and horse, to go to the Brampton station—I cannot say whether Chapman Was present or not—Beard was there at the time, and also the next morning when I took the trap to Chapman's—I spoke to the station-master about the trunk—I left it in his charge.
Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Have you seen a book which has been produced here, said to be in Beard's possession? A. Yes, I have seen it it in Beard's possession—I have seen him with it in his hand several times—I believe I saw him writing in it one day—I could not swear to it—he might have been looking over it, with his pencil—whether he was writing or not, I cannot say—I cannot exactly say what day it was that I first saw it in his hand—it was between 13th and 20th August—I am quite sure about that—I never saw it in his hand afterwards, that I am aware of—I recollect about some gig-lamps—Mr. Poole told us we had better take them, and make a little beer of them, or else Chapman would take them—there were two, no more—I believe Beard took them to Mr. Fox, a cab proprietor in Baywood-street—I cannot say exactly what he got for them; it was 7s. or & something of that sort—we divided the money between us—I cannot say that I know James Tate, of Northampton, by name—I believe the party you mean was in Mr. Poole's employ; he was not with us when the lamps were sold—there was no one with us, only myself and Beard—I do not know that I and Beard and Tate were in a public-house together one Sunday evening—I do not recollect it—I could not swear that we were not, because I cannot recollect—Tate worked in Mr. Poole's employment, as I did—we might have been together in a public-house, in August—I have often gone over to Kingsthorpe on a Sunday evening—I cannot recollect leaving the house together, and having a conversation about Chapman—I do not recollect anything being said about that smashed leg, b----Chapman.
Q. Was anything said to Tate to this effect, "I want you to keep your tongue still, as to these things that went to Derby; mind what you do and do not utter a word about the clock, as I do not want them to know anything about it?" A. I do not recollect anything about the circumstance at all.
Q. Did you say, "You promised to stick to me and I will protect you; when things are settled you shall go to Derby with me?" A. I must repeat again, I do not know anything at all about the circumstance; why should I protect him? I knew nothing about the lad—I will swear I did not say so—I will swear that no one said it in my presence—I did not say, "I will give you a sovereign before we start, provided you say nothing about it, for we mean business; if Poole don' t turn up to us 20l. apiece before 12 o'clock to-morrow we will do for the b----;" nothing of that sort was said in my presence on any occasion.
Q. Did Tate then say, "No, I will not promise not to say anything about it until I see how things go on, because it is very hard to turn against a master who has been a good friend both to you and me?" A. I do not know anything at all of the circumstance, therefore I cannot say; I should not have forgotten such a thing—I cannot say, to a few years, how long I had known Chapman; several years—I did not know that he was an agent for Cooke, of Walsall.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What was it that occurred in the streets of Northampton that induced you to go to Mr. Pearce?A. We were abused both by Poole and Chapman in a disgraceful manner; I do not know for what—they called us all the prettiest rogues they could—we wanted to know for what—that was what we went to Mr. Pearce for, to ask him to ask Mr. Poole, he being a friend of his, the reason why we were abused in the public streets—there might have been a little more conversation than that, but really I cannot recollect it—that was the reason he said, "I suppose you have come to intimidate me?"
ELIJAH WESTON . I live at Kingsthorpe, Northampton, and am a shoemaker—I know Chapman: his premises adjoin mine—I remember his making an application to me on the subject of a barn—that was on a Sunday afternoon, the 18th or 19th August, I believe, or somewhere there, abouts—I allowed him to have the barn—he told me he wanted it to put a horse in for a few days—I recollect some goods being put in the barn the same evening—instead of a horse he put some boxes and a hamper—I went into my garden, which is usual with me before I go to bed, and I saw two or three men in the garden—I said, "Halloa!" and Mr. Chapman said, "Hush, hush!"—we had a little conversation about it, and he said that he had taken a quantity of goods of Mr. Poole for a large debt that was owing to him—I made little or no reply to that—the goods remained there for several days; not until the messenger of the Court of Bankruptcy seized them, they were afterwards removed—the barn was in a very dilapidated state, and it rained in in forty places—it was not fit for anything to be in, alive or dead—the goods were taken into a room in my house, which I call a lumber room, with a better roof to it, and they remained there, in the same condition, till they were seized—there was no removal that I know of.
ANN WESTON . I recollect an officer from the Court of Bankruptcy seizing the goods that were in our lumber-room—Chapman was in his garden at the time the messenger came—he sent for me, put a paper over the wall, and said, "You give this receipt to your husband, and tell him to show the parties who are taking the goods away, and tell your husband to say they are his, and they dare not take them away"—I never gave the paper to my husband—Chapman sent for me a second time, after the goods were on the van, and told me to show my husband the receipt then, and I put it into my pocket and kept it there till the goods were gone away—I would not show it to my husband—I kept it in my pocket until the evening, when Mrs. Chapman came in for it and I gave it back to her, as Mr. Chapman wanted to make it out proper.
Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Was Chapman confined to the house with his broken leg at that time? A. No, he was not; he could walk without a crutch or stick—he gave me the paper the day they fetched the goods away; I did not notice what day it was—we lived next door to him then—he hurt his ancle, I think, this summer; not his leg—I had seen him about on crutches a long time before then, but not at this time.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How long had he been on crutches? A. I cannot say, but he had not any then; he seemed perfectly right then.
JOHN SHEPCUTT . I live at River-cottage, Lower-road, Islington, and am assistant to Mr. Stubbs, one of the messengers of the Court of Bankruptcy—I have the seizure warrant—I received it on 23d August—I went down to Northampton—on the 29th I received some information, and after that I went to Kingsthorpe, to Mr. Weston's premises—I seized some goods there—they consisted of twenty-six trunks containing manufactured and un-manufactured goods; a hamper containing boots and shoes, and 100 skins wrapped up in canvass packages—I took possession of those goods and took them to Poole's warehouse at Northampton—after I had taken them there I opened the trunks and the hamper—I found in them a letter-bag which I have here—I also found a peg-iron, some envelopes, and cards with Poole and Co.'s name on them—I found them in the trunks—" Poole and Co." was on the envelopes and cards, and on the letter-bag as well—I showed the hamper of goods to a person of the name of Stone, and the package of leather to
a person of the name of Butcher—a person named Fossey was there; he had been in the bankrupt's employ—I also found in the trunks a leather portmanteau—the nature of the goods contained in the trunks was silk thread, elastic side-springs, ready-cut jean lining, ready-cut silk and thread for machine work; and a quantity of side-springs—there was a large quantity of boots and shoes with "P. and Co." on them—a quantity of boots was in the hamper—I cannot form an estimate of the value of the whole of the goods that I seized at Kingsthorpe—Mr. Dennis was present when they were opened; and the broker from the Court, a person of the name of Kelly—Fossey was there, and Stone, and Butcher; I don't remember any one else—Mr. Newton was there; he saw the goods that I seized at Kingsthorpe—I seized ten trunks of goods on 7th September at Saul's public-house—each of the boxes had more than 101. worth of goods in them.
Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Did you see Chapman when you took. possession of those goods at Kingsthorpe? A. No—I did not see him during that time.
THOMAS STONE . I am a shoe agent—I lived formerly at Earl's Barton, Northamptonshire—in August last I was in the employ of Poole and Bryan, as a shoe agent—on 13th August, Thomas Beard came, and I gave him a him a hamper of boots and shoes, which I have seen since at the warehouse at Bull's Head lane—it was shown to me by the messenger of the Court of Bankruptcy, and contained boots and shoes, which, according to my idea, were worth between 28l. and 30l.
WILLIAM JOHN PEARCE . I am an auctioneer at Northampton—I know Poole—I cannot say the date, but ten tons of goods were brought to my house—on 18th August I advanced 70l. to Poole on some butts, which are solid leather, and, on I think, Wednesday following, the 22d., 70l. more on some kids.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Were you examined before the Magistrate? A. No; I remember Woodford and Beard coming to me—they said that Poole had behaved very badly to them—I said, "If you have come here to wish me to intercede in this matter you are deceived, the trunks are removed, they were not an hour on my premises"—Poole told me that the first advance was to pay wages with, and the second for Mr. Ball to pay the solicitor.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. When were the trunks sent away? A. The same day that they came—I had been out of town on the 13th—I was informed that it was the 13th—I sent them away as soon as I knew of it—I advanced some of this money for wages—I knew that he was instructed to size sufficient goods for that purpose, and he said that if a bankruptcy ensued, the Commissioner would allow the deposit of the goods—the cheque that was given for wages, was made out in the name of Ventris; the first check—it was on the Northamptonshire Union Bank, and payable to F. W. Ventris or order—at the time the leather for that convenience was deposited, a note was signed by both of us—I did not bring it, I had no notice—I have not given it up to the prosecutors, but they have a copy of it—there was a memorandum between me and Ventris, in his own name, at the time the goods were deposited.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Have you known Mr. Chapman some years? A. Yes—I cannot say that I know Mr. Cook—I have seen him this morning, but should not have known him if I had not been told who he was—I have understood that Mr. Cook and Chapman have had business transacttions together.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. If any goods left the premises of Pools on the night of the 18th, did they arrive at your premises? A. I cannot speak of ray own knowledge—I advanced the 70l. I believe before the goods were delivered, and they were delivered some time in the day—no other parcel was delivered that day that I am aware of—afterwards, on the 22d, another parcel was delivered, on which I made a second advance—the goods sent on the 13th were at my house when I arrived at home from out of town, and I ordered them to be sent away—I have never seen them since.
MR. METCALFE. Q. You say that there was a second advance of 70l. did Mr. Ball negotiate that? A. He was present—that is Mr. Ball of the firm of Quilter and Ball; he had not time to stop for it, and I went to their house in London in due course—the kips were sent to me in order for me to judge whether they would be good security for the 70l.
HENRY FOSSEY . I live at Northampton—I was packer to Messrs. Poole and Bryan—this piece of iron is their property—I saw it on 13th August, and used it myself in the shoe room—I last saw this letter-bag on the 9th and 10th of August—the boy coming back with the letters bad it—Shep-cot, the messenger, showed me twenty-six trunks of boots and shoes, which he had seized in a hamper—I examined most of them, they were Poole's—I know them by the way they are made, and the stamp—I found in one of the trunks, five pairs of patent spring sides—I knew them; they were brought in by a man named Skimpton, of Hartwell—they were the usual kind of goods which Messrs. Poole were in the habit of selling.
GEORGE FREEMAN NEWTON . I am one of the assignees, and am a currier, carrying on business at Northampton—I am a creditor to between 5,000l. and 6,000l. the total amount debts is about 18,000l.—I was at the bankrupts' warehouse about 13th August, I do not know exactly the day—I received a circular from Quilter, Ball, and Co.—this (produced) is it; it is dated August 14th, and I should receive it on the 15th—on receiving that I went to London the same morning—(This was signed Poole & Co and stated that owing to serious losses in trade, they had suspended payments, and placed their books in the hands of Quilter, Ball, & Co. and requesting to be informed of the particulars of Mr. Newton's claim)—I went to their shop in New Oxford-street, and inquired for Poole—I was at first told that he was within, but afterwards the shopman who went to see, came back and told me that he was not within—I called again the same day, and was told that he would be in at 2 o'clock—I went again at 2 o'clock, and received a note which I tore up directly I read it—it was in Poole's writing, stating that he could not see me, but that any information wanted I should have from Quilter and Ball—I returned the same evening to Northampton, and in a day or two received information that quantities of goods were leaving the premises—on the Saturday evening following my return from London, I commenced watching the premises, and after watching some time a van-load of goods was brought out of the warehouse on the Mayor Hill—I followed it some distance through the town, until we got to the bottom of Abingdon-street, or across the Market hill, as we call it, where Ventris went up to the driver, Beard—there were several persons with me—I knew Ventris and afterwards when he had got further up the town I spoke to him—when he spoke to the driver, the pace of the van was quickened—I ran into the station-house to call a policeman, who came out, and we followed it up to St. Giles's-street, on the outside of the town, and then they went so fast that we lost them—while I and the policeman, and my son, and two or three
others were together talking, Ventris came down to the corner to listen, apparently, to what we were talking about—he put an umbrella over his eyes to prevent my seeing him—I went up, pulled it up, and found that it was Ventris—I asked him whether he thought that it was part of his duty to assist the bankrupts in robbing the creditors in that way—he said that that was nothing to do with me, he had a right to do as he liked, for he was in the public streets, and I had better mind what I was about, for I was on the eve of bankruptcy, and he would do something for me if I did not mind.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Are you one of the assignees? A. Yes, and a large creditor—this prosecution is perhaps instituted by my authority to a certain extent—I received a circular from Quilter and Ball, and went to see the bankrupt after that—I went as he told me; I had a bill coming due and he was to have an acceptance of Graham—I went up to get the money if he had got it from Graham.
COURT. Q. What money? A. I had a bill coming due for 900l., and Grahams used to pay my bills to meet their acceptances with; I went up with the bankrupt, who was to meet me at the Euston station with the money or acceptance—I presumed he had got it from Graham, and I went up to see—I never saw him on that occasion—I saw him in the evening in Northampton—I was not very pleased with him then.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. You say that Veutris was carrying an umbrella, was it raining? A. No—it had been raining more or less during the day, but I do not think it was raining at that time—I will not swear that it was not, but if it was it was not raining much—this was five or ten minutes after I had seen the cart, and 500 or 600 yards from where I had seen it, but I had followed him and never lost sight of him—I followed the van and followed him also, up to the time I spoke to him under the umbrella—I am not aware that either of the persons who were with him are here, but they can easily be fetched if you want them—they saw what I saw; they followed with me—it was Darwin and my son and a policeman, whom we took from the station, I cannot say what his name was—they went by the station-house, in the roundabout way in which they seemed to go, and I went in to get a policeman—I cannot say whether Ventris went up Abingdon-street or Giles-street, but I saw him at the top of Market-hill, and at the top of Giles-street—I am not aware that I ever lost sight of him from the time I spoke to the driver—my impression is that he went all along with the van—I knew, at the time he spoke to the driver, that he was the party who was introduced to me—I did not know him to be Mr. Ventris, at the bottom of the Market-hill, but I knew afterwards that he was the same party who spoke to the driver—it is not above 500 or 600 yards from the market to St. Giles'-street where I spoke to him—the van went through two streets.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Is the amount of 5,000l. or 6,000l., which the bankrupt owes you, for goods supplied in the way of your trade? A, Yes—the leather we supply is curried, not raw, and the debt has arisen from that—I never asked Ventris, when I spoke to him, whether he denied speaking to the man—I have not the slightest doubt he is the person—the whole of the bills I hold, and the debt together, are close upon 6,000l.—there is about 1,400l. which is not actually in my hands, but the remainder is—I have bills now to the amount of 3,000l. or 4,000l.
SAMUEL BRYAN . The prisoner Poole and I became partners in 1857, I think—we found, about the end of July or the beginning of August, that we could not meet our engagements—we had a large account with Byas and Co.,
and had overdrawn—I came from London and arrived in Northampton on Wednesday, 15th August—I had a conversation with Ventris on that day—the principal thing I recollect was that he said he had been recommending or giving some advice to my partner, and he wished to give me the same, and that was that he should sell 2001. worth of goods, put 501. in his own pocket, and give me 50l., and there would be 1001. for him and his employers—I made no particular reply to that—I left soon afterwards, and went to my home in Northampton—I never meddled any more in the affair—I did not accept the offer or the suggestion.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. When was this conversation? A. On Wednesday evening, 15th August—I had been to London, I went on Tuesday and back on Wednesday—I was in Northampton on the 13th, and left on the 14th, and took no further part in the matter at all—I was in Oxford-street when some goods were removed—I did not send them away or help to pack them up, or see them packed—I meant that I took no further part in the matter at Northampton—I was at Northampton on the 13th, at the warehouse—I went to my house in Green-street, Northampton—that is perhaps half a mile from the warehouse—I do not remember exactly to whom I first told this conversation about Ventris—that question was never put to me by Mr. Van Sandau, or at the police-court—I think I remember mentioning it some two or three weeks after in town—I think I mentioned it in the course of a conversation in the presence of the messenger, Mr. Shepcutt, and yet I never mentioned it to Mr. Van Sandau—I do not remember that I have mentioned it publicly to anybody before to-day—he advised my partner to take 50l., and to give me 50l., and he would take a 100l. for his employers, Quilter and Ball—I do not know whether that was to go into the pocket of Messrs. Quilter and Ball: I am only telling you what took place—I do not know that anybody else was present; I think not—I did not mention it for three or four weeks—I have not mentioned it before any court of justice—I cannot say what gave rise to the conversation—I do not recollect any conversation before that—it took place in Mr. Poole's room, in his house—there was nothing particular before it that I noticed—I was not given into custody on this charge, or threatened—not the slightest charge has been made against me for removing these goods from Oxford-street, at the time when I was present and giving directions—I do not remember any complaint of any kind—I did not think to mention this to anybody, though I knew it was an improper suggestion—I understood Mr. Ventris had got possession and had got the keys in his possession, and that it was to be locked up until they sent down their man to take the stock—I did not think the suggestion would be acted upon by my partner—I thought it an improper suggestion—I did not mention it to Mr. Newton, because I did not think it would be acted upon, and I did not see Quilter and Ball—I went up to London on the 13th—I knew the goods were removed for a legitimate purpose, to be sold at the latter end of the week for wages—I did not go up to London because the money was procured in another way—I did not go up to get a bill of sale—I went up with my partner to London on the 13th to go to Gray, and to Byas and Co.—he stayed in London till the 15th—the money was raised in Northampton; I had nothing to do with the transaction—it was raised by my partner in Northampton instead of the goods being sold—my business in going to London was connected with the business of the firm—one object was to go to our merchants to endeavour to get them to make a fresh agreement which they had not agreed to, to endeavour to carry on the business, and if they would not do that, to go to an accountant
and have the thing brought to a close—I did not go to Quilter and Ball's—my partner did—he took down Ventris from that establishment—among other places in London, I went to Tozer's—he keeps a boot and shoe shop at 40, Gracechurch-street—a large quantity of boots and shoes were sent to tar's from Oxford-street, while I remained in town—I consented to that—there were six or seven baskets of different sizes—I was present when they arrived at Tozer's—I am not aware that they have actually been made part of the present charge against my partner—I was present at the police-court and was examined as to these goods.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. How long have you been in partnership? A. I think it commenced in 1857—I live at Northampton: that is my home—a young man in the shop attended to the Oxford-street branch—I do not know Mr. Cooke, of Walsall—I have heard of him in connexion with the purchase of a portion of my property, but I never saw him in my life—I do not know that there were sold to him on behalf of myself and partner, in July, some 100l. worth of goods—I have heard of it before to-day—I heard of it in Northampton—I heard of it from my partner, after I was made bankrupt, not before—I cannot say the day, but it was the day the goods were brought back from Kingsthorpe—I never heard of it till after the bankruptcy—I mean to persist in that answer—I heard of it then from my partner—he did not then tell me that Cooke had paid him 300l. and odd, for boots and shoes, a portion of our stock—he said nothing about what he had paid him—he told me goods that he had sold to Cooke; some hundred pairs of boots and shoes, and calf-skins and wax-ends—the very goods which were brought back from Kingsthorpe, were the goods he told me he had sold to Cooke—as to what became of the money, my partner told me that it was money which he owed his father—the amount was about 300l.—I am "not aware that I have said I do not know the amount—I went up to London with my partner on 13th, and stayed with him till 15th August, and I mean to tell my Lord and the jury that he did not tell me what was the precise state of affairs, or what had become of a portion of the stock—I was in difficulties then, and I knew it—there was a conversation between us as to the position of our firm at that time—I have not the slightest recollection of his telling me then that he had sold these three hundred and odd pounds' worth of goods to Cooke—I will undertake to tell those twelve gentlemen that I do not recollect his telling me that he had sold a portion of the stock, but I will not say either way, because I do not recollect it—the letter was issued on 14th August, I believe, and I was adjudicated bankrupt on 23d, I believe—I have been examined before the Commissioners in bankruptcy—my partner did not tell me, immediately after we stopped, that he had, one mouth previously, sold a portion of the stock to Cooke—he told me that he must sell goods for the money he owed his father, but he did not tell me that he had—that was some two or three weeks before we stopped—what he sold to Cooke was to pay his father—when he told me that he had sold to Cooke, that was not immediately after the letter had been issued to my creditors, and before I had been adjudicated bankrupt—that I swear positively—I know the difference, between stopping and bankruptcy—it was after we had stopped that he told me he had sold the goods to Cooke, and also after we were adjudicated bankrupts, it was when the goods were brought back from kingsthorpe—I am not aware that I said to you just now, "I think not"—I mean to pledge my oath that it was not before we became bankrupts, it was after—I was not told till after the goods came from Kingsthorpe—I do not know when Poole sold them—it was near the warehouse on the morning that the goods were brought
back from Kingsthorpe, that he told me he had sold goods to the amounts of 300l. to Cooke—it was four or five weeks before that that he told me he would sell the goods—he did not tell me he was in negociation to sell—I knew Mr. Chapman—I did not know that he was Mr. Cooke's agent—I do not remember that he told me that he had been negociating with Mr. Cooke, and expected to get an answer from his agent, Mr. Chapman, as to whether he would pay the amount that he required for a portion of the stock—I know that Mr. Cooke has brought an action against the assignees in respect of this very property.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you know anything whatever of these goods having been to Kingsthorpe? A. Not the slightest, I was not aware of it until they were brought back by the messenger—it was then that Poole told me that they were the goods that he had sold to Cooke—I am not acquainted with these books (Looking at them)—I had nothing to do with them in fact—this day-book was kept in the counting-house at Northampton—these entries relative to Cooke are in Poole's writing—this entry in the rough diary purporting to be a payment to Captain Poole, is also in Mr. Poole's writing—(Read: "Paid to Captain Poole, 278l. 5s. 10d. being the amount of two cheques held by him, due to Captain Poole, by me, L. R P.; The above amount was paid out of the 300l. received from Mr. Cooke of Walsall, L. R. P.")—this account in the ledger headed "Captain Poole" is also in my partner's writing—I also believe these two papers (produced) to be his writing and this letter also.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Do you know whom this letter came from? A. No; I have never seen it before to-day (MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE stated that it came out of Mr. Dawson's possession).
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Here is a book purporting to be a day-book, commenced in 1858; is that the regular book of business kept at Northampton? A. Yes; it is in Poole's writing, all of it, I think—this "11th July" is also in his writing—the two entries previous to that are, I think, in his writing—I have not seen an order for the delivery of these goods which we have been talking of, and a receipt for them, except these two papers just now produced—I have never seen them until this moment—I have never seen an order, "Please to deliver," so and so, nor any receipt for the delivery—I never heard about anything of the kind.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Have you seen Cooke here? A. Not to my knowledge—I do not know him—(Upon MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE proposing to read the letter, MR. BEST objected to it as being a privileged communication between attorney and client, and referred to Roscoe's Criminal Evidence, page 179, and Archbold, page 228. THE COURT was of opinion that, although the attorney's mouth would be closed, the document was not a privileged one now that it was produced, although it might have been a question whether the attorney could be compelled to produce it; and that if it became necessary the point could be reserved). The letter was here read as follows:—" London, 29th Oct., 1860. Dear Sir,—I wrote to my housekeeper, Mrs. Cave, to day, and told her to try and get Woodford to your office, so that you might make a handling of him; Mrs. Cave will do her best to get hold of him, and in the event of her doing so, and that you are satisfied with him, you may give him the enclosed, or rather, destroy it in his presence: but mind, please do not in any way, in the shape of evidence aft to the existence of this document, take notice of it, for reasons that I will make known to you when I next see you. Have you proceeded any further in Cooke's matter or Admitt's Had you not better write to Cooke upon the subject of his action and 'feel his purse?' You can address me under cover to Mr. F. W. Ventris, 4, St. Paul-street,
New North-road, Islington, London. Yours truly, L. R. Poole. What do you think of Billingham's testimony; will it do?"
FREDERICK SHARMAN . I know Ventris's writing, and have no doubt that this letter is his—(Read: "17, George-street, Northampton, 16th August, 1860. Sir,—I take this opportunity of informing you that at my suggestion Mr. Poole will be with you to-morrow morning, 12 o'clock, to consult you upon a few matters of urgency requiring immediate attention, the more particularly in reference to a shop the firm has in London, of which no mention was made to you, although it was to Mr. Link later. The feeling evinced by Mr. Newton, a creditor for 5,570l., is so bitter, that bankruptcy most inevitably ensue and that speedily. To-morrow the stock-taking will commence, and a statement of their affairs can be arrived at in a few days: if the profit and loss account be left out, of which please advise me by letter, you or Mr. Poole. From the present appearances of the stock, &c. &c., I should think it would produce from 3,000l. to 4,000l., if sold judiciously. I have much pleasure in stating that Mr. Poole has rendered me the most efficient assistance. I remain, Sir, yours respectfully, F. W. Ventris.—. G. H. Jay, Esq.—P.S. Bernstein and Co. of Basinghall-street, Mr. Poole is inclined to think, bears no very good feelings, they are creditors for 297l. 14s. 3d.)"
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Are you in the employ of Quilter and Ball? A. No; I was merely on this particular business—I know that instructions were given to Mr. Ventris to get money, to pay wages but not at that time—I knew that since—neither Mr. Quilter, Mr. Ball, Mr. Jay, nor any one from the firm, is here—I know now that there had been instructions to pay the money, and that there were instructions from Mr. Jay to sell property for that purpose—I believe that Mr. Jay, Mr. Quilter, and Mr. Ball, are all in Loudon—they were all there yesterday—I know Mr. Jay's writing—I have no doubt this is it.
HENRY BRIANCE . I am in the employ of Messrs. Pickford—on 18th August I delivered a trunk at 4, St Paul's-street, New North-road, Islington, for Mr. Ventris—it came by the London and North Western Railway—I am stationed at Camden-town station—it arrived on the morning of the 18th—it was addressed to Mr. Ventris—I delivered it to the address at Veutris's house.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you know that Ventris lived there. A. I cannot say—I took it to the address.
THOMAS DYKES . I reside at New Copenhagen-street, Islington, and am a boot and shoe-maker—I saw an advertisement in the Clerkenwell News, in consequence of which I went to 46, Goswell-street, on 13th October, to to look at some goods—I left my address there—Ventris called upon me on the following Monday—he said he was the owner of the goods that I went to look at—I appointed to meet him at 46, Goswell-street, in the evening—I met him there, 'and he took me into a back room of the coffee-house, upstairs, and showed me some goods that were in a trunk—he unlocked the trunk, and showed me the contents—the trunk was the ordinary size, for Manufacturers to pack goods for abroad—he emptied the contents on the floor—they consisted of boots and shoes, leather, elastic webs, and ready closed uppers—some of the goods were marked with a large "P," and a very small "Co."—he said he wanted a party to clear them all out; to purchase the lot—I told him that a portion of the goods, being square toed, would.
not suit me—I selected and made him an offer for a portion of them—I think he asked me ten guineas for that portion—I offered him 8l.—he said he could not take it—I really cannot say what would be about the value of the portion that I rejected, they were goods not at all suitable for the London market—I should think they were worth 7l. or 8l., supposing they were going to be sent abroad—in my judgment the whole would be worth about 16l.—Ventris called on me on the following Saturday, and said that he had a party that had offered him 9l. for the goods I had looked out, and if I would give him the 91. I should have the preference, being the first—I said I did not care a pin whether I had the goods or not, I should not advance my price—he went away then—he came back in about a quarter of an hour, and said he would bring the goods in—I never saw him again till he was in custody—he did not bring the goods.
Cross-examined by MR. METGALFE. Q. Were you business for yourself? A. Yes, at 22, Copenhagen-street—I have a shop there still—I have been there about eight months, up to the present time—I came from Lamb's Conduit-street, where I had a shop, immediately before I went to Copenhagen-street—I had been in Lamb's Conduit-street about eighteen months—I left it because the business did not answer, and I let it—I hid not any creditors there; I did not owe any money—I let the business and got a premium for it—before that I came from Northampton, where I was with Mr. Weston, manufacturing for him—I knew something of Mr. Collier there—I was never in my life charged with robbing or defrauding him of 15l.—I indignantly repudiate any such charge—I had no connexion with him, only as a friend—I knew Mr. Collier senior, and Mr. Collier junior—I knew Mr. William Collier—there is no truth whatever in the assertion that I was ever charged with defrauding Mr. Collier of 15l. and 1 defy anybody to say it—I did not buy any goods from any of the Colliers—I did not get any goods from them at all—I bad sold some goods for Mr. Collier senior—it is so long ago that I cannot say how much I got for them—I think it was over 30l.—I paid him the money—I will swear that I paid him the whole of the money—I will swear that Collier said no such thing as that I had kept back 15l., and if those are your instructions you are instructed very wrongly.
WILLIAM BALL . I was formerly in the employ of the bankrupts—I entered their service in July, 1859—I remember receiving orders from Poole, on 13th August, that we were not to go back to work till after breakfast on the Thursday morning—I never worked for the bankrupts again after that—after I had left off work, I received a message on Thursday morning, 30th August, about 6 o'clock—in consequence of that message I went to Chapman's at Kingsthorpe—I found Mr. Poole there—he said there had been a lot of goods seized the day before, and could I assist him to recover them—I told him he had been a good employer to me, and if I could render him any assistance without injury to myself, I should be happy to do it—Mr. Dawson's name was mentioned—Poole said I was to call on Dawson, and ask him to go over to see him at Mr. Chapman's house—I went to Dawson, and received a message from him, which I delivered to Poole—the message was that instead of his going over to Kingsthorpe, Mr. Poole and Mr. Chapman were to come over to his office—that was all the conversation on the 30th—it was arranged for us to go back to Mr. Dawson's office—nothing was said about Cooke till I delivered the message to Mr. Dawson—I went to Mr. Dawson's with Mr. Poole and with Mr. Chapman—it was then said in the presence of Dawson that they should get Mr. Cooke from Walsall, they had
telegraphed to him to come up here to be the purchaser of the goods seized from Kingsthorpe—it was Mr. Chapman that first mentioned Cooke's name—he said Cooke was the right sort of fellow, and would be the right sort of party to get up here to be the purchaser of the goods—that was not in Mr. Dawson's office, it was before we got to Dawson's office—when we got to Dawson's office it was said that there were to be papers drawn up—I can't call to mind whether it was Poole, Chapman, or Dawson who said that—Chapman and Poole both spoke about Cooke—they said that he was sent for from Walsall, that Chapman had telegraphed for him to come up, and that he was to be there by the first train after he had received the message—Poole requested me to to come up to London to Messrs. Quilter and Ball's office, and ask Mr. Ventris for some books—I was to tell Ventris that the goods had been seized that were at Kingsthorpe, but they should make it all right, they had got a man coming up from Walsall to claim them—I was to ask for a day-book and a small book—Poole also gave me a piece of paper with something written on it—I went to London—I got into London about a quarter-past 3 in the afternoon—I went direct to Quilter and Ball's, and saw Ventris—I called him outside on to the doorstep, against the street, gave him the piece of paper, and told him I had come for some books—I told him that the goods had been seized at Kingsthorpe, and that a Mr. Chapman was then gone down to Walsall to fetch Mr. Cooke up, as he did not come by the telegraphic message—Ventris said it was a bad job'—he gave me some books, which I put in to a bag that I bought next door, and then came straight away to Euston-square-station and went to Northampton and to Mr. Dawson's office—I got there about a quarter-past 7, or a quarter to 8 at night—I gave the books to Mr. Poole, who was still there—Mr. Dawson and Mr. Poole's father were present when I gave them to him—no one else—I did not see anything particular done with the books that night—I went to Mr. Dawson's office again the next morning by an appointment of the previous night—when I got there I found Mr. Cooke, Mr. Chapman, and Mr. Dawson there—I do not think there was anybody else there that morning—I did not see the books there then—I never saw them again there—I saw them once when I was in London again—I do not think I saw them afterwards, when anything was done.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Were you examined before the Magistrate in this case? A. No; this the first time I have made my appearance in it—Mr. Dennis sent for me—he is a solicitor at Northampton—he is solicitor to the assignees, I believe—I think it was three weeks ago last Monday morning, that he sent for me—when I went to his office I told him this tale as straightforwardly as I could—I am not aware that I have ever given any different account of this transaction about Mr. Cooke—I am quite sure of that—there was some writing taken down in Mr. Dawson's office—I put my name to it—I did not repeat to Mr. Dawson what I have said here to-day—the signature, at the bottom of this page, is my writing—the other is not mine—I did not say to Mr. Dawson, "I was in the employ of Messrs. Poole and Co. as foreman, up to 18th August last—I know Mr. Fisher, traveller for Mr. Cooke, of Walsall—I have seen him very frequently at Poole and Co's ware-house at Northampton, soliciting orders"—I did not say, "I recollect seeing Mr. Cooke himself there on 9th July last, as near as I can remember;" nor, "He was in conversation with Mr. Poole, and I understood, and was afterwards informed, that he had on that day purchased a large quantity of miscellaneous skins;" I did not say this to Mr. Dawson, "on 11th July, I was desired by Mr. Poole to assist in the packing of the stock so purchased.
by Mr. Cooke, which consisted of boots, shoes, patent-leather, elastic uppers of various kinds, and leather, laces, silks, and threads"—I said nothing at all that is in that paper—it was said for me—I did not say, "I did so with Thomas Beard, the carman, and they were in due course conveyed away in the van by Beard, as I understood, to Mr. Chapman's of Kingsthorpe for Mr. Cooke—they were, in all, three van loads, and they left all on the same day"—I said nothing that is in that paper—I was requested to sign my name to it—they said they could get the goods back if I would do so, and I did sign my name to it—I never made a note of the conversation that took place in Dawson's office when Chapman and Poole were there—I was once in the service of Messrs. Parker, of Northampton, for twenty-four years, or near upon that altogether—I left the service through spite of a party—they made some charges against me, but it was through the insinuations of parties in their employ, and through those insinuations I was tried for embezzlement, and convicted—I got six months, and as soon as I was let out, Mr. Parker sent for me, and gave me a rise of wages of 14s. a week—that was in June, 1854—I was secretary to a burial society—that must have been in something like 1850—it was at Northampton—I left Northampton in 1851, and went to North America—I did not owe the society anything—I am quite sure of that—the burial society did not say I owed them anything—one society said so, and I paid them—that was the association of "clickers," a term used in our trade—that was not spite—I paid them back, and paid them with interest, after I came back from America.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. What day was it that you went for the books? A. On Thursday, 30th August—I went to Quilter and Ball's on the same day that I had the conversation at Northampton—I am quite sure it was not the 20th—the messenger had been down to take possession at that time—it was not till the 30th August that I came to London—I did not take any memorandum of the date—I saw Ventris down at Northampton—his daughter was staying there, at Chapman's.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. When were you first spoken to about this matter, as to what information you could give? A. I believe it was three weeks last Monday morning, I am not sure—it was on a Monday morning—I was not at the Guildhall justice room during a portion of this investigation—I have never been in Guildhall—I was in London at the time it was going on—I was not in communication with Mr. Cooke, or Mr. Poole, none of them—I never saw Mr. Cooke, or spoke to him—London is not my usual place of residence; Northampton is—I came to London because I would not be found by the parties that were looking after me, to come and swear to the correctness of that paper—they did not send the paper down to me—it was read over to me and I signed it.
Q. Am I to understand that that which you deliberately put your name to was a tissue of falsehoods? A. You are—every word of what I have stated to-day is the truth—every word of the other is false—it is true that Mr. Parker took me back into his employment and raised my wages to 14s. a week more than my previous wages and he said it should never be mentioned in his place by anyone—he kept me till I left him of my own accord—he kept me three years after I went back to him—that was after the trip to America—it was after I had the clicker's money in my pocket that I went to America—I paid them at my convenience when I returned—I will swear that there was not a warrant out for my apprehension, for embezzling their property, before I went to America—Mr. Parker sent the superintendent of police after me, to bring me back to my work, because I left him without giving.
him any warning—the superintendent was not fortunate enough to meet with me—perhaps I may have been too sharp for him—I succeeded in getting to America—I never saw Mr. Cooke till I saw him at Mr. Dawson's office—I know Mr. Hart of Northampton, a akin dealer—I do not know whether he is here or not—I know the Flying Horse at Northampton—I have met Hart there several times—I do not recollect passing any conversation with Mr. Hart—I remember meeting him early in December, but never having any conversation with him—I am not aware that there has been any conversation with Mr. Hart about Mr. Chapman—I do not know how many years he has been at Northampton, not a great many—I have known him there, I should think, eighteen months—I came back from America in February, 1852, to Northampton, and I have been there ever since—I believe Hart was carrying on business at Northampton, on his own account, as a skin dealer—(Mr. Hart was here called in)—I am not aware that I had a conversation in the early part of December with that gentleman about these very matters that are being inquired into to-day—I have a pretty good memory—I will not swear that I had not a conversation with him about these very matters, in the early part of December—I never in my life said to him "I hope I shan't have to go to London again, as I and Poole packed the goods together;" not a word of—there is not a bit of truth in it—I never said such a thing in my life as this, "If Chapman don't lend me money to go away with, I will lay it all on him, as money I must have somehow or other"—that is as untrue as the statement that I signed—I never asked a person for a farthing since the job has been about—nothing of the kind passed between me and him—it is a perfect fabrication—I did not meet him afterwards at the Corn Exchange—one night after we had been to drill as I was going out at the Angel gateway Mr. Hart stood at the bar window having some brandy and water—he called to me, and said, "Where ear you going?"—I said, "I am going down to the Red Lion"—he did not then say to me, "You owe me 6s. 6d. I wish you would pay me"—I did at one time owe him 6s. 6d. part of it has been paid—I told him that as soon as I got into work, I would pay him all—he did, one Saturday, ask me to pay the 6s. 6d. that I owed him—that was not the time I am speaking about at the Angel—I did not then tell him, "I can't pay you yet, but I shall be all right in a day or two as I intend going against Chapman"—I will tell you what passed, and the answer I made him, it was to this effect—he said, "Will you pay me what you owe me, you have had some work"—I said, "I have only had two or three days' work, as soon as I get into constant work, I will pay you"—that was the conversation, nothing more—I met him at the corner of the parade close by the Corn-Exchange; that was the time when he asked me about it—there is a house called the Red Lion, at Northampton—I did not meet him there about the 22d or 23rd December, he went down with me from the Angel to the Ked Lion—I did not then tell him that I had arranged to go to London, and become a witness against Chapman—I did not tell him that I was coming to London again—he knew that I had been in London, because I saw him against Euston-square station, on the morning I was going away from London—he came up by the train at half-past 10, and I was going away by one about 11—I do not know whether he was coming up about his own business; I did not ask him—I was going away—I had been up here out of the way of the business—I affixed my name to this paper at Mr. Dawson's office in Northampton—this paper was not shown to me again in London, I never saw it from that day to this—I did not come to London in the same train with several of the persons who are witnesses in this case,
nor with any of them—I came up by the train at half-past eight, I think—I know Mr. Jones—he did not come up in the very same train that I did—I saw him in London—I know that Mr. Chapman met with an accident some time in July, I cannot tell you the day—he was not confined to his house till the latter end of August—he was in Northampton before the 13th August—he lived at that time at Kingsthorpe; he used to come from one place to another in his pony and trap, and used to have crutches—he was not confined to his house so as to be unable to come out till the end of August—he was not confined to his house at Northampton.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When did you first go into Parker's employment? A. 11th April, 1836—the charge against me on which I was prosecuted was made on the 23d or 24th June, 1854; that was after I had been twenty-one years in his employment—I came out of gaol at the end of six months, I did not go back directly, I was in Mr. Bryan's employment first, and Mr. Parker sent for me three or four times before I would go, and then increased my wages 14s. a week—I left at last because I fell out with a clerk in the employ, and gave notice to leave, and after that Mr. Bryan and Mr. Poole came to me and said that they were in want of a foreman, and I agreed to go—I did not get so much wages as Mr. Parker had offered me to stop—at the time I signed this paper they said that they might want me at the Bankruptcy Court, to swear that packed the goods—they had said nothing about asking me to swear to it, until I had signed my name—when I learnt that these proceedings were pending, I kept out of the way—I do not believe I ever saw Cooke in my life, till I saw him at Mr. Dawson's office—I know him now by sight—I have not seen him about the Court—that is he, sitting under your friend—(Pointing to Mr. Cooke).
HENRY GODDARD . I am an accountant—I have been through this ledger to ascertain what accounts are indexed, and what are not—here is an entry headed "James Cooke"—it is an account of the sale of some goods to Mr. Cooke, of Walsall—that account is not in the index—one of the accounts which was in the book at the time it came into my hands, is not indexed—that was Captain Poole's—there are two accounts in the book not indexed—one is Cooke's and the other Captain Poole's—all the other accounts in the ledger are in the index, except those two, but the one of Cooke's is an entry made by myself, since the book came into my possession—the index is as it was when it came into my possession—all the other accounts which were in the book at the time it came into my hands, except Captain Poole's, are indexed—I found Cooke's account in the day-book, and as an accountant, at the time the bankruptcy, I thought it my duty to bring it into the ledger—I posted it myself, from this entry.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Have you got among the papers, the order for the goods, and the receipt for them: Cooke's? A. I think this is what you call the order, it is a letter dated 9th July.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. What was the charge against Mr. Dawson? A. Conspiring with Poole to defraud the creditors of Poole and Bryan, the bankrupts—after he was examined, he was discharged by Sir Robert Carden—Ball was examined, and some of the witnesses who have been examined to-day—all the papers I took from Mr. Dawson, I have with me—I am not aware in what capacity he was acting at the time he was given into custody.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was Ball examined before the Magistrate? A' No. (The papers were here read as follows—" Mr. Cooke, Walsall, 1860, bought of Poole and Bryan, boots and shoes, 300l. net—paid same time; Poole and Co." The account in the day-book was—" July 11th, James Cooke, of Walsall, boots and shoes, (giving the items,) net 300l. paid." The entry in the ledger was—" Captain O. Poole, July, 1860, cash 278l. 5s. 10d. balance 21l. 14s. 2d." On the creditor side were several entries, commencing, June 5th, 1859, to July 7th, making a total of 300l. By balance, 21l. 14s. 2d.)
Thursday, January 10th, 1861.
MR. BEST (for Poole). I propose to ask my friend upon which removal he relies.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. I suppose upon that relating to the trunk sent to Islington?
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Three removals are proved, undoubtedly not within the jurisdiction of this Court; after those three removals, the whole of the goods find their way to Kingsthorpe, and are then together, and any act done in relation to those goods would be a new act, a new removal, or a new secretion of the whole; if there is evidence of a felonious act in relation to the whole body of goods deposited at Kingsthorpe, then I apprehend the disposition of a portion in another jurisdiction, while it is proof of the felony of the whole, does not necessarily confine it to that particular portion.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. Not confine it-as to evidence, but as regards jurisdiction will you not fail unless you show a felony committed within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court, and is not the only felony proved within this jurisdiction, that with regard to the trunk sent to Islington?
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. I think not; the. witness Ball gives evidence of being sent up to London to procure books, and proves a delivery to him by Ventris of certain books, and it will be a question for the Jury whether or not those books were obtained for the purpose of carrying out the felony in relation to all the goods at Kingsthorpe, and if there is an act done within the jurisdiction affecting the whole property, then the parties charged with the offence, may he tried in any county where any portion of the machinery of the crime is put in motion.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. Is that so? Would you say that if it were shown that some burglars blacked their aces in this jurisdiction, with the intention of going into another jurisdiction and there committing a burglary, that they could be indicted for burglary here?
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. I think they could; if an act is done here in relation to a particular felony carried out elsewhere, that act would bring the parties within this jurisdiction.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. If you can support that proposition you will go a great way. I do not say you are wrong, but it comes before my mind as a novel proposition, besides the transaction with respect to the books took place after the goods at Kingsthorpe were in the hands of the messenger.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. I see the force of that observation, and shall rely upon the goods sent to Islington, and contend that they were there concealed, and that there is evidence that the three prisoners were parties to that concealment.
MR. BEST (for Poole). The removal takes place on the 17th by Ventris's order, and next day the box is taken from Chapman's to the railway station and arrives at Ventris's on the 18th, that was before the adjudication, and when the concealment is completed by the arrival in London, the goods are out of the possession of Poole.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. If the goods are brought to London before the adjudication, with the intent on the part of the prisoners, that after the adjudication which they were then anticipating, they should be concealed is London, and in pursuance of that intention they are there concealed, can you say that that concealment does not continue? That is the point you have to grapple with; would that amount to the crime charged, and if so, can you say there is no evidence to go to the Jury?
MR. POLAND (for same). I submit first, that a removing, concealing, and embezzling must all three be proved within the jurisdiction, and secondly, that with respect to the trunk sent to London, some act with respect to it on the part of Poole, must be proved after the bankruptcy, and there is no such evidence: even supposing he knew the goods had been concealed before the adjudication, yet if he does no act with regard to them after adjudication, the offence charged is not made out; it may be another offence, viz. that of not discovering his effects, but it is not an embezzling, concealing, or secreting.
MR. METCALFE (for Ventris). It appears to me the section upon which this indictment is founded, contemplates the property being actually in the possession and under the control of the bankrupt at the time of the adjudication. This property clearly was not so, because it was then in the possession of Ventris; it also implies an active concealment, that is, some act done; and if no such act is proved, it amounts only to a non-discovery.
MR. SLEIGH (for Chapman). I submit that as to Chapman there is not a title of evidence. I understand your lordship to rule that whatever acts have been proved, must, to bring home guilt to any of the prisoners, be acts after the adjudication?
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. I think so; unless my present, opinion can be changed by Serjeant Ballantine's argument. The point for you to contend against is this, whether the acts done out of the jurisdiction and before the adjudication, are not evidence of an employment of Ventris to do the act of concealment, which he did after the adjudication and within the jurisdiction.
MR. SLEIGH. I would direct the attention of the Court to the words of the statute, from which it is evident that for a person to be guilty of any offence at all, he must himself be clothed with bankruptcy.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. No doubt unless Poole is guilty the others cannot be, but if Poole be a felon, is not Chapman, in aiding and assisting him in that felony, also a felon?
MR. SLEIGH. I think not. I submit that in order to commit any offence here at all, a man must be clothed with bankruptcy. I contend that there is no evidence to go to the Jury of any act done by him after adjudication or within this jurisdiction.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. I think that comes round to the same proposition. Three things must undoubtedly be made out: it must be shewn, in order to fix any of the parties, that the bankrupt is himself guilty of the offence; unless he is guilty, the other two prisoners cannot be assistants to the felony; it must also be shown that he, as well as the other two, is guilty of an offence within this jurisdiction, and then, in order to that, it is necessary to show what I have already stated. But there is evidence, as it strikes me, from which the Jury may conclude that the trunk in question was sent by the three prisoners before
the adjudication and out of the Jurisdiction, to London, for the purpose of in there concealed, and if so, and if the Jury think that was done with intent to defraud the creditors, as at present advised, I think that will do; if the acts done before adjudication are intended to be followed up by an act sebsequent to it, and in fad is followed up by it, with a fraudulent intent, that it sufficient to make out the case.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. One important point for the Jury to counter will be, whether the evidence does not show an arrangement between the parties prior to the bankrupty, (followed out by silence and non-disclosure at the time of bankruptcy, that the goods should be disposed of in the manner in which they ultimately were, and a further point would be whether the entries in the bankrupts' books in relation to the alleged sale to Cooke were not fraudulent, the natural consequence of which would be a concealment of the goods from the creditors, and a concealment of a character sufficiently active to meet the objection urged.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. I think there is evidence for the Jury. William Collier, shoe manufacturer, James Barwell, furniture dealer, William Sabine, gardener, and William Gardner, builder, all of Northampton, deposed to Chapman's good character; and William Austen, menagerie keeper, 16, Shepherds-walk, deposed to that of Ventris.
There were other indictments against the prisoners, for which see Old Court, Thursday, and subsequent days.
NEW COURT.—Wednesday, January 9th, 1861.
PRESENT—Mr. Justice KEATING; Mr. Ald. HALE; and Mr. Ald. JAMS
Before Mr. Justice Keating.
MESSRS. CLERK and METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM TULL repeated his former evidence, and added: Mr. Howlett, the inspector, was in the office, standing close to the prisoner on his left side—he pat his hand down the side of the prisoner's coat before the prisoner produced the parcel, and after that the prisoner said, "There is something here."
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Have you ever mentioned one word about Howlett or the inspector feeling the side of his coat, before? A. No, because I was never asked—I do not think I have ever said that I asked him whether he had anything else in his pocket, and that he replied, "No"—I was never asked that question.
WILLIAM HOWLETT . I am inspector of letter carriers at the Western District Office, and have been so twenty-six years—I was here last session, but was not examined—on 7th December I was on duty when an inquiry was made
with regard to the missing packet, addressed to Mr. Davis—I went to the inspector's room with the comptroller, and the prisoner was asked to turn out the contents of his pockets—he turned out several articles, money, a little pocket book, and several other things, and Mr. Tull asked him if he had anything more—I cannot say whether he said "Yes "or "No"—to the best of my knowledge I then placed my hand upon his coat, and then he searched his pocket, and from the left hand pocket, which was nearest to me, he took out a packet, and said, "Here is something here, but for the life of me I cannot tell how it came there"—I had felt something at the corner of his pocket—I was not before the Magistrate.
JURY. Q. Was the prisoner's coat buttoned or unbuttoned? A. I rather think it was unbuttoned—I am positive that I felt his coat outside, because where he took the packet from, was nearest to me, and I could feel it, and did feel it—I will undertake to say that I touched the outside of his pocket before he produced the package, but I cannot say whether he knew that I did so—he was near enough for me to do it, either with or without his knowledge.
NOT GUILTY .
THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, January 9th, 1861.
PRESENT—Mr. Ald. COPELAND; Mr. Ald. JAMES LAWRENCE; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.
JOSEPH TIBBLES . I am a dairyman, and live at the Lower Heath, Hamp-stead—my mother, Elizabeth Tibbles, also resides at Hampstead, and is the occupier of some land at Child's Hill, in the parish of Hendon—on the night of 13th December, there was a stack of hay, belonging to her, standing on her land—I received information about 10 o'clock, I think, in the evening, that the stack was on fire—I went there—it had then been put out—I saw there had been a fire—there was a very frivolous amount of damage done to the rick; I should think the amount would be 10s. at the outside—I have not heard of any other stack of hay being burnt at Child's Hill.
Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you know anything about the prisoner? A. No, he is an entire stranger to me.
ABRAHAM HUNT . I am a labourer, and live at Child's Hill, in the parish of Hendon—about 13th December last I saw a bay stack on fire at Child's Hill, in Mr. Tibbles' field, about a quarter before 10 o'clock in the evening—I gave information to the police at Hampstead, and, with the assistance of others, I put out the fire—I could only see, apparently, where the rick had been set on fire at the bottom—the fire was put out about 10 o'clock, or five minutes past, I should think.
GEORGE CHARLTON (Policeman, S. 295). On the evening of 13th December last, I was on duty at Hampstead Heath, between Child's Hill and Branch Hill, about a little after 10 o'clock—I saw the prisoner coming along on my beat from the direction of Child's Hill, where this rick was situated—I asked him if the fire was out—I had heard of it before—after some hesitation he said, "There was a fire"—he walked away from me a small distance, and then stopped-about ten minutes afterwards I saw him again, coming towards me—when he saw me he turned back again—I saw him again in about twenty
minutes; from that to half an hour—he wag in the same place, coming towards me again, from the town, walking about—I am quite certain the prisoner is the man.
Cross-examined. Q. You took particular notice of him, I believe, on account of thinking his manner very strange? A. I did.
JOHN PENWELL (Policeman, S. 362). On 2d January, about half-past 12 at night, I was on duty in High-street, Hampstead—I met the prisoner—he said, "I wish to give myself up for setting fire to a haystack at Child's Hill about a fortnight ago"—I said that I was aware that there had been a stack set fire to about that time; and said, "Did you do it?"—he said, "I did, and I have been miserable ever since"—I took him to the police-station, searched him, and found on him 6s. in silver, 2d. in copper, a counterfeit shilling, a pocket knife, a comb, a tooth pick, a paper knife, and an umbrella.
JAMES WEBB (Police-inspector, S.). On 13th December last, I was at Child's Hill, about 10 o'clock in the evening—I saw Mrs. Tibbles' hay-stack on fire—the fire was nearly out—on the 2d. of this month, about twenty minutes to 1 in the morning I was at the station house at Hampstead—the prisoner was brought in, there by Penwell, who told me that the prisoner had given himself up to him for setting fire to the stack—I asked the prisoner his name—he gave the name of William Evans—he declined to give his address: I asked him why: he said because he did not wish his friends to know—I they stated to him that it was a very serious affair, that it was necessary for me to ask him a few questions, and then I asked him whether he would answer those questions—he said it would depend upon what questions I asked—I told him that as he had given himself up for that offence, it was necessary that I should ascertain, previous to detaining him, that there were some grounds for the charge that he had made against himself—I asked him if he set fire to the rick—he said, "I' did"—I said, "Why did you do it?"—he said, "That is not easy to say, but I have been miserable ever since"—I said, "Did you do it willfully?"—he said, "Yes, and I bought the matches at a shop in High-street, and as I was coming from the place I met one of your constables, and he asked me a question about it"—I made inquiries since, about the prisoner's name and address—his private residence is 14, Rye-lane, Peckham—he is a tailor.
The prisoner 8 statement before the Magistrate was here read as follow;"I admit setting fire to the stack of hay at Child's Hill on the 13th of December last; I was at, at the time, in a very distressed and desponding state of mind, at such times I have very little control over my feelings and actions."
MR. GIFFARD called
JAMES HENWOOD . I am the prisoner's medical attendant, and have been so for many years—the condition, generally, of his mind, is, I should say, desponding—I do not know whether he has any hereditary tendency to insanity—I was attending him on 12th December last—I then observed in him some traces of incipient insanity—on his entering my room, he told me that he was again unwell, and that he had strong temptations to self-destruction—I have heard the account of his offence—in my judgment, from my previous knowledge of him, and from the evidence I have heard, I should say he was insane on 13th December.
Cross-examined by MR. ROWDEN. Q. Will you undertake to swear that he was in a state not to know right from wrong? A. A man in an insane state is most likely to do that which is wrong.
COURT. Q. How recently had you seen him before the night of the 13th? A. On the 12th, about half-past 9 at night.
MR. ROWDEN. Q. Previously to the 12th, when had you seen him? A. I cannot state exactly, but perhaps a week may have elapsed—he was then to all appearance sane—I am in the habit of seeing him very often—I have seen him at times in an incipient state of insanity, and I have seen him at times sane—I cannot undertake to say that on the night of the 13th he did not know the difference between right and wrong.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you attend him down to 24th December? A. Down to the 21st—I thought him very much better on the 21st—I saw him on the 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 21st—on the 14th he was still desponding, and in an incipient state an insanity—I think most probably there was no interval of sanity on the 13th.
COURT. Q. Did you think it necessary to have him watched? A. Yes; I mentioned that to his wife—that was to guard against the temptations to suicide.
JOHN MILLER . I am medical superintendent of the Bethnal House Lunatic Asylum, Cambridge Heath—that is an asylum for the insane—the prisoner was there in March, 1848, for a fortnight—I have not the slightest doubt that while he was there he was insane.
Cross-examined. Q. You have not seen him since then? A. No.
PRISOILLA HEAD . I am a sister of the prisoner's wife, and keep a shop only two or three doors from where the prisoner lives, in the same lane, Rye-lane, Peckham—I have had constant opportunities of seeing him for the last three years and a half—I observed a change in him last October; he wandered about all the day—it caused us great anxiety—he returned home between 8 and 9 in the evening, looking very vacant, not At all himself—we were not at all aware on the 13th December, where he had gone to—we cannot speak positively—we know that he was out one evening, and came home about 1 o'clock, and another evening about half-past 11, and about six weeks ago he was out all one night—he did not, to my knowledge, make any statement about where he had been—after Dr. Hen wood was consulted my sister went to town with the prisoner several times, to look after him—Dr. Hen wood called on her to tell her of the state of mind that he was in.
Cross-examined. Q. Between October and this present time, though you had seen a change in his manner, has he been frequently sane and rational? A. He has at times.
NOT GUILTY, on the ground of insanity.
MESSRS. METCALFE and LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.
EDWARD STRATTON BATCHELOR . I am a wine-merchant, residing at Queen-street, Cheapside, and was formerly a woollen-merchant in Basing-hall-street—the prisoner was then in my employ as a traveller—he left me early last spring—he took a place in Coleman-street, and afterwards in Ironmonger-lane—I deposited goods with him to the value of 700l. or 800l.—that was not at his request—I was to pay him rent for them; for ware-housing—I had the control of the goods—they were to be at my disposal—I recollect being at the premises at the end of July or the beginning of August, I am not certain which—all the goods which ought to have been at my disposal were there—I had sold some in the meanwhile—I made a list of the remainder, and told the prisoner that there were several piece missing.
COURT. Q. You said they were all there? A. I mean I made a list of them—you may scratch out "all the goods were then there."
MR. LEWIS. Q. You told him there were some missing? A. Yes—he said he could not account for it in any way—he knew I took the list—he was not present when I took it—I told him I wished to sell the goods, because I wanted the money to meet some bills—I sold the goods—I afterwards received the key of the warehouse from the prisoner's servant—that was in August, after I bad taken the list—upon receiving the key I went to the warehouse—I counted the goods as I took them away—that was not in the prisoner's presence, it was in the presence of his man—some were missing—I saw the prisoner a month, I should think, after that—I said "There are six pieces of goods short, since the last list was taken"—he said, "I can't account for it"—nothing else material passed then—I afterwards went to a man named Hayhoe, in Long-alley, and there saw six pieces of cloth—the cloth was worth about 25l. and it was mine, part of my stock—I did not owe the prisoner any money—he had no authority from me to dispose of those goods without my sanction—I had not given him my sanction or authority to dispose of these six pieces.
Crow-examined by MR. ROBINSON. Q. Were you insolvent at the begining of the year? A. I paid composition of 12s. 6d. in the pound—that was in the spring of 1860—the 700l. or 800l. of goods were then in my warehouse, in Basinghall-street—I mean to swear that—they went to Coleman-street first, before they went to Ironmonger-lane—they went to the prisoner's place from Coleman-street—some were sold before I made the list in July or August—I never sold any myself—Eldridge, our traveller, did the selling for me—he is not here—I cannot say how many pieces he sold—I cannot give you any idea of the amount—he was selling nearly all the time up to July—he went on selling till the time he left—it was the end of July or the beginning of August, not the end of August—it was after I made the first list—I believe he went on selling up to the time he left me finally—the prisoner did not sell a very great quantity of goods for me—he told several pieces—I cannot give you the amount that he sold for me—I bow Mr. Ell, he is an accountant.
Q. Was he not expressly employed by you to go through the accounts? A. And he was also a friend of the prisoner—Mr. Ell went through the prisoner's accounts, I believe—he did not go through them by my directions—the prisoner went to Sheffield to have the accounts made up—Ell did not act on my behalf—Booty agreed to go to Sheffield, and Ell did not act for me, he went too, because he was a friend of Booty's—I did not pay Ell to go through the prisoner's books—Booty agreed to go to Sheffield to go through the books, and Ell was a friend of his, and therefore he went with him—nobody appeared for me except Ell—the accounts were taken down at Sheffield—Mr. Ell happened to have some business down there at the time—it was in October or November that I ascertained that these goods were at Hayhoe's, I cannot say which—I believe Mr. Hayhoe was insolvent—I know he was insolvent—Mr. Hayhoe's solicitor happens to be my solicitor, and always has been—I believe Hayhoe was insolvent at the time I made this discovery about the goods being there—the prisoner, when he sold goods, always told me before the goods went whom they were going to—to the best of my belief he did—that was the understanding—he had no right to sell anything without informing and consulting me first, although he afterwards gave me the money—the mode in which I was paid for the goods that he had sold on my behalf, was not by his own bills; by no bills at all—as he
received the money he handed it over to me—I received some bills from him—they were his own bills, but they were on account of goods that I had sold to him—I allowed him a commission on all he sold.
Q. Do you know that when Mr. Ell went down, the prisoner's books were all open to him? A. I do not know anything about it—Mr. Ell is here—I have not subœnaed him here, I am not aware that my attorney has—I have seen him this morning, and have spoken to him—I recollect seeing the prisoner at Greenwich—that was about October, I should think—I did not want him to give me an acceptance then—when I was insolvent, in the spring, I gave acceptances for the 12s. 6d. in the pound, that I was to pay—there were securities—I did not say anything about his paying me 30l. down, nor about his giving me a bill, or policy on his life—I did not take any goods of the prisoner's when I went and cleared off these goods from Ironmonger-lane—I had had some of his goods a short time before, when the account was made up—that was about a fortnight or a week before I cleared the place out—I had the prisoner's authority to take them—he owed me a lot of money—I think he invoiced the goods that I so took, at about 30l.—I suppose it was about October, September or October, when these goods were cleared off; when they were all taken—the key was given me at the same time: no, I have made a mistake, I got the key when I took them away—I could not get them without the key—it was in August; that was about the time—the goods were cleared off near the end of August—it was, I believe, on 3d December that I gave him into custody—I have not got Hayhoe's bills that the prisoner gave me; I believe they were returned to Mr. Hayhoe when he paid the composition—I took the composition for the bills—I do not believe there was any balance of account—very likely I received authority from Booty to receive the balance due from Hayhoe to him—I have a copy of the account made out by Ell—the original account that Mr. Ell made out, is, I believe, in Court.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Is this the account (produced)? A. Yes; it shows a balance to me of nearly 140l.—the goods charged in this indictment are not mentioned at all in that account—it was later than August that I first saw these goods at Hay hoe's—the reason I did not give the prisoner into custody from the time I saw him at Hayhoe's to 3d December, was, because I only saw him once—I had been looking for him for weeks in the meantime—he was not in his warehouse in Ironmonger-lane—no one could see him.
MR. ROBINSON. Q. Whose writing is this account in? A. It is Mr. Ell's signature to it, I believe—I believe there is a date at the bottom of it—I should think it was about September that I received it—there were six pieces of cloth sold to Hayhoe—I charge the prisoner with stealing those goods that were sent to Hayhoe—I do not adhere to my statement that none of the goods that were sold to Hayhoe are in that account—there is one piece here mentioned, out of the six pieces; not more than one, I believe—I have heard somebody say that there are as many as six detainers against the prisoner.
ERIOUS WILLIAM HAYHOE . I am a draper, carrying on business at 113, Longalley, Finsbury—I bought from the prisoner the six pieces of cloth included in this indictment, and more than those—he did not say anything to me, on my purchasing them, as to whether he was the owner, or anybody else—he made no representation about them at all—this (produced) is the invoice of them—I cannot say in whose writing it is.
E. S. BATCHELOR (re-examined). I believe this is not in Booty's writing.
E. W. HAYHOE (continued). This invoice was delivered to me by the
prisoner—there is another invoice containing 5 pieces—I bought them on 9th August—those pieces of cloth were afterwards seen and identified by Mr. Batchelor, as his.
Cross-examined. Q. What did you pay in the pound? A. 5s.—I have partly paid it—I believe the goods were all the prisoner's own—I bought all those goods in the invoice—I have paid 5s. in the pound to Mr. Batchelor on the whole account.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you know Mr. Batchelor before he found these pieces of cloth on your place? A. I did not know him, I had seen him once.
WILLIAM JOHN ELL . I am an accountant of 37, Basinghall-street—I am acquainted with the prisoner and the prosecutor, and knew the prisoner before these transactions—I knew the prosecutor before—I was a mutual friend of both—I was down at Sheffield about September last—I recollect the prisoner coming down to me to go through some accounts—no books were brought down by him to me—they afterwards came by his directions—they were submitted to me—the prisoner's day-book was not submitted to me for the purpose of making the account out between Mr. Batchelor and Mr. Booty, but it was before me at the time I made that account out—I did not use it for reference to Mr. Batchelor's account—whatever book was necessary I used, and what was not necessary I did not use—when Mr. Booty was down at Sheffield with me at first, I made an account of all the numbers that he knew that he had, giving him at the same time, a list of all the other missing goods from Mr. Batchelor's stock—I only got that list from Mr. Batchelor; and I gave the prisoner a copy of it when he left me to come to London—that was to endeavour, when he came to London, to trace the missing goods, and if he traced any of them, he was to send me down the numbers, so that I might include them in the account.
COURT. Q. That was under Mr. Batchelor's direction? A. I had an authority from Mr. Batchelor to settle the accounts between them.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Were you acting for both? A. I was a mutual friend of Mr. Batchelor and Mr. Booty—I gave Booty a list of a great many that were missing, besides those six—I do not suppose I said anything specially about the five others which are included in that invoice, but they were included in the list that he saw—having the day-book, I must have seen that entry in it—when I spoke to him about those missing goods he said nothing about having sold them to Hayhoe—he said that he had not had them, that he did not know anything about them—if he had said he had known it at that time I should have included it in the account—when the account was made up there was a balance of 440l. due to Mr. Batchelor—before I made out the account, I said, "It is a very serious matter for you to be placed in this position, what can you do towards the repayment of it?" and he agreed to a certain proposition that I made to him for the liquidation of a part of it—on his agreeing to that proposition, I gave him an account—there was an account sent up prior to this one—when the prisoner was at Sheffield, I included in the account all the goods he admitted that he had, telling him that if, when he got to London, he found out any more that he had, he was to send me down the numbers, and I would include them in the account—I bad a letter afterwards, giving me the numbers of those six pieces, and I included them in the account—I believe the only number that refers to those pieces, is number 1699; I am not quite sure whether there is any more—I think there is another in the invoice, 2511—those numbers were in his day-book when he was at Sheffield—I have the letter here—only those too, I believe, of the missing pieces, are in the day-book—the prisoner did not say anything as to where the piece 1699 had gone to.
Cross-examined. Q. You saw this day-book? A. Yes, it was at Sheffield—I saw Hayhoe's account also—when Mr. Booty was down at Sheffield his books were very much in arrear, and I, as a friend of his, was making up his books for him; and I used that book for the purpose of making up his books, at the same time that I was making up his account with Batchelor—I believe the list that I gave him included all the numbers of the six missing pieces—it was a copy of a list furnished to me by Batchelor—the numbers 3339, 7290, 1521, and 3647 are not in the list, because they are Mr. Batchelor's numbers—2511 and 1699 are in the list, but they were sent down to me at Sheffield.
MR. LEWIS to E. S. BATCHELOR. Q. When you gave the list of missing articles to Mr. Ell, to show to Booty, had you discovered that the cloth had been sold to Hayhoe? A. No.
The Court considered that there was no case against the prisoner.
NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT.—Thursday and Friday; January 10th and 11th, 1861.
PRESENT—Mr. JUSTICE BLACKBURN; Mr. Aid. HALE; and Mr. Aid. JAS. LAWRENCE.
Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MR. HOLL, and MR. HAJELRISON conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS EDWARD STUBBS. I am one of the messengers of the Court of Bankruptcy—I produce the petition, and adjudication, and also the statutory declaration made by the bankrupt Poole in open Court—he signed his name in my presence, and I witnessed it—it was before Mr. Commissioner Fonblanque—(This was a declaration by the defendant that he would make true answer to all questions proposed to him, to the best of his knowledge and belief.)
ANDREW VAN SANDAU . I am a solicitor of 13, King-street, Cheapside—I took down the examination of the bankrupt, Poole, on 26th September—it was then carefully read over to him and he signed it—he was attended by his solicitor—I also took down his examination on 11th October; that was read over to him and he signed it.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST with MR. PALMER. Q. You say that he was attended by his solicitor, who was that? A. Mr. Linklater's clerk—I am the gentleman who is conducting this prosecution, by direction of the assignees and by order of the Court; I, on behalf of the assignees, made application to the Court—I gave Mr. Dawson in custody; I did so on my own authority, acting on my notion of what was correct. (The examinations of the defendant, on 26th September and 11th October, were here read, in which he staid, that with the exception of the goods deposited with Mr. John Pearce, he had not removed, or caused to be removed, any goods or merchandise whatever, or been privy to their removal subsequent to his suspension of payments, and that no other goods had been removed, to his knowledge, but by order of the assignees or the solicitor: that the goods seized at Mr. Weston' s, of Kingsthorpe, were sold by his firm to Mr. Cooke and delivered, by his directions, to Chapman as his agent; that he believed that they were the goods sold to Cooke in the beginning of July, for which Cooke paid him, and that the particulars of the sale were entered in the books of the firm.)
MR. BEST. Q. After those two examinations was the bankrupt again examined? A. Several times—he was examined on 12th, 22d, and 23d October, and on 8th and 15th November—he was apprehended on 15th November.
THOMAS BEARD . I was formerly in the service of the bankrupts Poole and Bryan, to look after the horses and as a kind of carman—on 13th August I received directions from Mr. Poole to go to Earl's Barton, and fetch all the work that the agent, Thomas Stone, had got ready, and take it to Kingsthorpe to Mr. Chapman—I went to Stone and received a large hamper of Wellington boots and half Wellingtons and Bluchers, which I took to Chapman's place at Kingsthorpe, and left them in the coach-house—on the 14th I went to London; I returned to Northampton between 5 and 6 o'clock on the 15th, and went to Poole's house between 10 and 11 o'clock—I saw Poole, Chapman, and Ventris; Poole gave me the keys of the factory and I received directions from Chapman, in Poole's presence, to go to the factory and pack as many fronts of boots as I thought would fill the van—Woodford assisted me—we packed from seven to eight trunks with Wellingtons, half Wellingtons, and spring sides—while we were packing them Poole and Chapman came to the factory, and Poole ordered me to load them in the van—Chapman gave me orders to take them to his house at Kingsthorpe; Poole was present then—I took them to Chapman's at Kingsthorpe—there are two roads to go there, the Kettering-road, and the Kingsthorpe-road—we went on the Kettering-road—that maybe two miles further than the Kingsthorpe-road or a little more—we got to Chapman's, at Kingsthorpe, somewhere about 11 o'clock, and left the goods in the coach-house at his house—we returned to Northampton that night, and paw Poole at his house, and we told him we had delivered the goods at Chapman's house—on the following morning, 16th August, I saw Poole at the factory—Chapman, Ventris, and Woodford were also there:—Mr. Poole ordered us to go into the shoe room and assist him and Chapman in packing a lot more trunks of boots—we packed about twenty trunks—Poole was present during that time—we took them to Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe, by Chapman's directions; Poole was present—we took a van and a cart load too—I drove the van, and Woodford the cart—we left the goods in Chapman's coach-house, where we left the others—we left the factory with the goods on Thursday night about 12 o'clock and got to Chapman's about half-past 12—the Kettering and the Wellingborough-roads, branch off at a short distance from Northampton, just against the tollgate—I returned to Northampton on Thursday night, saw Poole at his house and told him that we had delivered the trunks at Chapman's place—he said that he and Chapman and Ventris were going to London the next morning; that would be the 17th—I saw Poole on the night of the 17th between 10 and 11 o'clock, he did not return till a late train—he gave us orders to be at the factory next morning, the 18th—on the morning of the 18th we took two van loads of solving leather, about thirteen bales, to Mr. Pearce's—it was then just getting on for dinner time—after we had taken those goods, the men were paid, and after that, in the evening, we received orders from Mr. Poole to carry all the work out of the office into the factory—we did so and after that Mr. Poole ordered us to fetch some trunks and to pack all the work in them—Mr. Ventris and Poole and Woodford were present—we packed six or seven trunks and received orders to take them to Mr. Pearce's warehouse in Dychurch-lane—we loaded the van and started with it—John Woodford was with me—we left the factory with the goods between 10 and 11 o'clock at night, and when we got across the Market-square, Ventris came
up to me and told me that I was watched, and that I must give the watchers a good chase, and I went a little faster—we went by Dychurch-lane and took the van to Mr. Poole's house, and not to Mr. Pearce's—Mr. Poole was there and Ventris too—we got there at a little after 11—the goods were put in the stable, and I went home—on the 19th I saw Poole at his house, and he ordered me and Woodford to go down to Chapman's house, but not before night—we went at 6 o'clock on Sunday night and saw Thomas Chapman, who took us into the kitchen of his house, where we remained till 11 o'clock, when Chapman came to us and told us that he had taken a barn of one of his neighbours, and he wanted us to shift all the goods out of the coach-house into the barn—we removed twenty-six or twenty-seven trunks and a hamper or two, and left them in the barn—we finished about 2 o'clock next morning and then returned to Northampton, to Poole's house—Woodford was with me when I got back—the gate was left undone and the back door like wise—we went in and found Mr. Billingham asleep on the sofa, he is a broker of Northampton—we awoke him—he gave us some orders, after which we loaded the van of the trunks that we took there on Saturday night in the stable, Woodford, Billingham, and myself, and took them to Hartwell, which is a few miles out of Northampton—I never was there before—Billingham went with me, and when we got there we put the van under a carrier's shed—I do not know his name, but I saw him afterwards—we went into his house and had breakfast with him, and the goods-were unloaded out of our van into his cart—I returned to Northampton with the van, and Billing-ham came with me—the carrier's cart started from Hartwell after me and it went to Billingham's house at Northampton—when we got to Northampton, I saw the carrier's cart standing in the Bed lion-yard, opposite Billingham's house—I did not see whether the goods were in it then—(Jeffs was here called in)—that is the carrier—it was between 10 and 11 on Monday morning when we got back to the Red Lion, near Billingham's house—I saw Poole afterwards at his house, and told him that we had taken the goods to Hartwell, and that they had returned to Northampton—I accompanied the messenger to Billingham's house in October, when some goods were seized—I think it was the 29th—I saw some trunks there in one of his bed-rooms, covered over with cloth—they were similar to what I took to Hartwell on the night of the 20th, and I believe they were the same make—they were then empty—we found a lot of leather and Wellington-tops at Billingham's—the leather was in one of the top rooms—I did not see any skins fetched, but I saw them—the twenty trunks that we took to Chapman's house on the 16th might measure two feet nine inches, two feet six inches, and two feet three inches—they are made especially for packing goods—I do not know what wood they were—they were covered over and had tin plates at the corners—the twenty trunks I took that night were covered with canvas like this one (produced)—I have never packed shoes—I put all the tarpaulin on the trunks after the goods were packed—Foster is the person who usually packed them.
Cross-examined. Q. I suppose there are a good many trunks of that description? A. Yes; I do not know whether other people use such, who sell shoes—I was never engaged as porter in a shoe factory before, only by Mr. Poole—I did not make a note of what was found by Mr. Shepcutt, or of the first time I began to remove goods—I went nowhere else, only upon that occasion—these dates in this book, beginning with August 13th, are in my writing—they were made on the days I state, made day by day, every day
—I made them at my house—I bought the book in 1859, and I believe this was the first time I used it—I bought it for my own use, to put down my little affairs in—August 12th was the first little affair I put down in it—what I had in my mind when I bought the book has nothing to do with the bankruptey at all—I bought it for my own use if I wanted one—I did not expect any of these things were going to be removed—it almost struck me from the first, that something was wrong—knowing that all the men were discharged except myself, and getting me to pack goods when I knew nothing about packing, and going out at night, and going different roads, I thought curious—I first gave information on 8th October, to Mr. Newton—I had been at Walsall at work till that time, in Mr. Cooke's service—I had assaulted somebody in Northampton—I was not aware that there was a summons out against me, but when I returned there was a summons—I do not remember anvone telling me of it before I left—I insulted Mr. Derby—I did not beat him—it was through a horse—I did not strike him or threaten to, but I put my hand on his collar—I did not knock him about a great deal—I had a summons served on me, but it was not in consequence of that that I left—I swear that—when I got to Mr. Cooke's, I said that I had brought my wife and family to Walsall, and said, "You are well aware, Sir, what I have come to you about?"—he said, "No"—I asked him if he had not received a letter from Chapman—he said that he had not—I told him that Poole and Chapman had written to ask him to advance a few pounds for my wife and family—he said that they had not—I had only 6d. for my wife and family—Mr. Fisher, one of his travellers, went and showed me the stables but I could not work, and he said he would send my furniture down after me as soon as I telegraphed that I had arrived, but when I arrived, my furniture was still at the place, where I took it—I did not find a summons that day—I could not stay there without a bed—I found a summons a few days afterwards—it was not after I received the summons, that I first communicated with Mr. Newton—I went to Mr. Newton a day or two before I received it—it was on the 8th—I received the summons on the 4th—I thought it a rascally thing of Poole to throw me into a strange place, with my children—I saw Woodford on 6th, I think; it was one day when Chapman pulled off his coat and wanted to fight me, and called me a rogue, but a policeman came up just at the time—I went with Woodford to Mr. Pearce's but not to complain—he did not tell me to be off—I did not speak to him—I only waited about—I went to know the reason of our being served as we were—we knew that he knew a great deal about it—I remember going to Mr. Dawson's office—Mr. Jameson was not there, only Poole, and his father, and Mr. Dawson—this is my signature to this paper—I will swear that Mr. Jameson was not at the office when I wrote it—I made no statement to Mr. Dawson when Mr. Jameson was in the office—I made my statement about August—I never said anything about July—Mr. Dawson was writing all the time he was speaking to me, before I signed this—he did not read over to me what I was to sign—I did not say above half a dozen words to him, that I swear.
Q. Will you swear that you did not have this read over to you, before you put your name to it—"I have been in the employ of Poole and Co." &c. (Reading the paper, from which he was cross-examined in the last case, see page 175.) A. I will; and it is all a false statement—I do not know Mr. Arthur Markham, a solicitor of Northampton, at the Clerk of the peace's office—I have never made any other statement similar to this to any other gentleman, a solicitor—I know Mr. Pearce—I never remember going with him to Mr. Markham's or anywhere—I do not know Mr. Markham.
MR. HOLL. Q. At whose suggestion was it that you went to Mr. Cooke's at Walsall? A. Poole's and Chapman's; Mr. Poole paid my carriage fare down, and told me that he had written a letter to Cooke, telling him to advance me a few pounds when I got there—I mentioned to Mr. Dawson about moving the goods to Kingsthorpe, but did not say that I did it in July.
Friday, January 11th, 1861.
JOHN WOODFORD . I was formerly in the employ of the bankrupt—on 15th August I received orders from Chapman to take some trunks to Kingsthorpe—Poole was present at the time—we took some trunks on that evening to Chapman's, at Kingsthorpe—I mean I and Beard—we took either seven or eight trunks, I cannot say which—we left them at Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe—they contained boots and shoes of different descriptions—on the following day, the 6th, I was at the factory—I had orders from Poole and Chapman to go into the shoe room and assist them in packing some more trunks with boots and shoes—we did so—Poole was present at the time.
COURT. Q. Do you mean at the time of the order, or the time of the packing, or both? A. All the time.
MR. HOLL. Q. How Many trunks did you pack? A. I should say twenty trunks were packed that day—we took them to Chapman's, at Kingsthorpe—Chapman gave us the orders—Poole and Ventris were present at the time we had the orders—we left the goods at Chapman's house, in the coach-house—it must have been about 12 o'clock at night when we left the factory, and we arrived at Chapman's about half-past 12, or from that to a quarter to 1, it could not be any later—when I got back to Mr. Poole's house, an order was given me in Poole's presence by Ventris, to take the horse and trap next morning to Chapman's, and to take the trunk that was covered that day, to Brampton station on the following morning—I went to Chapman's and took the covered trunk to Brampton Station, with Ventris's direction on it—it was a trunk covered with canvas—Chapman went with me to the station, and said that he was going to London—I left the trunk in charge of the station-master—on Saturday morning, 18th August, we took a quantity of bales of leather to Mr. Pearce's warehouse, at Dychurch-lane—we took them in two loads—that was as near midday as possible—it might have been an hour later, I almost forget—in the evening we packed a quantity more goods—I and Beard had orders to pack them—Poole gave us the orders—they were packed in trunks—I should say there were half-a dozen trunks, besides several bags of offal leather—we had orders to take them to Pearce's warehouse, in Dychurch-lane—Poole gave us the orders—Ventris was present at the time—we loaded those trunks into the van—as we were going across the market-square Ventris came to us and spoke to us, in consequence of which Beard went on with the van—I remained behind—I saw Beard, the van, and the same goods, that same evening at Mr. Poole's private residence, in St. George's-street—they were put in the stable—it must have been about 10 o'clock at night when the goods left the factory—on Sunday, 19th August, we had orders from Mr. Poole to go to Chapman's in the evening—when I say we, I mean I and Beard; we both worked together all the while—we went about 6 in the evening—when we got there we remained in the kitchen till very nearly 12 o'clock—we then received some orders from Chapman, and removed the trunks from the coach-house, that we had taken the week before, into his neighbour's barn, which he had hired to put his horse in—I did not know the party's name at
that time, but I have since heard that it is Weston—the barn is about fifty or sixty yards from Chapman's coach-house—we took from the coach-house to the barn, I should think, twenty-six trunks, besides a large hamper of goods—we put them in the barn.
COURT. Q. Did Chapman go with you or not? A. Chapman went with the first trunk that was taken, in fact, he ordered us to take a trunk and he went with us.
MR. HOLL. Q. What time was it when you finished moving these trunks from the coach-house into the barn? A. I should think very nearly 2 o'clock on the Monday morning—we then returned to Northampton—Beard was with me—we went to Poole's house—we got into the house the back way, and when we came to the back door, that was unfastened as well—we went in and found a man named Billingham lying on the sofa asleep—he is a broker at Northampton—we received orders from Billingham, and did what he ordered us—we loaded the goods into the van that we had taken there on the Saturday evening previous—I mean the goods that were put in the stable—Beard and Billingham drove out of the yard with them in the van—I saw Mr. Poole afterwards in the morning—I believe he asked me if the goods were gone, and I told him yes, they were—I think that was all that passed between us.
Cross-examined. Q. You and Beard, then, were concerned in the whole of these proceedings? A. We were employed in the whole proceedings—I fancied things were not altogether right—Beard certainly mentioned once to me that things were not altogether right—I cannot say whether that was at the earlier stage of the proceedings or towards the latter end—he told me that he had made notes—I can' t exactly say when he told me that, but it was during the time quote the goods were being moved—I am not aware that I told him it was a good plan; I can't recollect, I might have done—I can't exactly say when I first gave information of what was taking place—I can't say whether it was at the latter end of September or the beginning of October—I went with Beard to Mr. Newton's—that was somewhere about the commencement of October I believe, but I don't recollect the day—between 20th August and 4th October, I had seen Beard several times at Northampton—I am not aware that I mentioned to him that my suspicions were getting stronger, that these things were all wrong—I do not recollect that we talked the matter over between those times—we might have done—I cannot swear to it—we went to Mr. Newton's because we were abused in the public streets by Poole and Chapman, and we had been told by a great number of persons that we had done the thing that was wrong, and as Mr. Poole would not give us any satisfactory answer why we were abused in the public streets, we went and impeached on Mr. Poole—I can't say when it was we first began to be abused in the public streets—I should think it was more than a week after 20th August—it might be more than a fortnight—I heard of things being seized by the messenger in bankruptcy—it was after that that we were abused in the streets.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you owe any money to Poole? A I did—I can't exactly state the sum—I think it was about 18l.—I had given an I O U for it.
MR. BEST. Q. What was this money transaction about, will you explain it? A. Mr. Poole advanced money to pay for my discharge out of the army on condition that I paid him back again, which I did, part of it—the whole of the money was 30l.—I believe a person named Johnson was concerned in the transaction—I believe it was Mr. Poole who advanced the
money—I am not aware that he had any security for it, besides my own—I never heard that Mr. Johnson promised to pay it if I did not—I am not aware that he has paid a farthing of it—he is my father-in-law—he has never mentioned to me that he had settled the matter with Poole for me—I am sure of that.
ELIJAH WESTON . I live at Kingsthorpe, Northamptonshire, and am a shoe-maker—my premises adjoin those of Chapman—I recollect some goods being seized on my premises last August, by the messenger in bankruptcy—they were in what I call the lumber-room in my house—I and Mr. Chapman's man put them there, his name is Brian Mode—they were moved out of the barn—they came from Chapman's when they were placed in the barn—I did not see the whole of them come—I think I saw one trunk and only one come—it is usual for me to go into my garden at night before I go to bed, and when I went in I saw a person with a trunk—that was on Sunday evening, I believe, the 19th August—I believe that man was Thomas Beard—there was one other man there besides, and Chapman—I did not notice the other man, and I did not notice Beard much—Chapman made some communication to me—he was outside the barn at that time—the goods were put in my barn.
ANN WESTON . I am the wife of the last witness—I remember these goods being in my husband's barn, and their being removed into the lumber-room—they remained there until they were seized by the messenger—on the day they were seized I saw Chapman there—I saw one of the person who brought the goods to the barn—I think his name is Brian Mode—I did not see Beard or the other man.
JAMES JEFFS . I am a carrier at Hart well—I carry goods from Hartwell to Northampton—I recollect Billingham coming to my house one morning—I believe it was on a Monday in August—Thomas Beard was with him—they called me up—it was sometime between 5 and 6 in the morning—they brought some goods with them in a van—I did not see the nature of the goods—I saw the trunks—they were taken out of the van and put in my cart—I took them into the horse-market at Northampton—I think the trunks were similar to the one produced—I did not take any particular notice of them—Billingham's house is in the horse-market—I left the goods in the Red Lion public-house gateway, that is somewhere near Billingham's house—I don't know whether it is exactly opposite—I don't know how far off it is—I know Billingham's house, and I know the Red Lion—Billingham's house is on the opposite side—I left the goods in my cart—Billingham came back to Northampton—I don't know what in—I did not see anything of either of them afterwards—I don't know whether Billingham got into Beard's van—I did not notice how they left my house—I went back to my cart afterwards, to the Red Lion yard—the goods were then gone—I did not move them from the cart.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you examined before the magistrate in this case at the Guildhall? A. No—I first gave my evidence about it in October—Mr. Dennis came to me about it—he is a solicitor at Northampton—I don't know exactly what he said when he first came—he asked me whether I remembered anything about Beard and Billingham coming to my house about a lot of goods—I told him I could not recollect—he went on to tell me how they had brought a van, and so on—he did not say anything about stopping all night, and going away next morning in a cart—he asked me about the trunks and what they contained, and I told him I could not give him any information about them, because I did not recollect—I carry a
great many goods in the country—I did at that time, trunks and all sorts of things, a regular shoe-maker's traffic from one place to another—I can't say anything as to the goods, nor do I recollect the exact time.
MR. BALLANTINE. Q. Have you any doubt about this being on a Monday 1 A. I believe it was on a Monday—that is not one of my regular days—Wednesday and Saturday are my regular days, and this was neither Wednesday or Saturday—I have no doubt that I left some goods under the gateway of the Red Lion in the cart—I have not left a cart full of goods under a gateway before, but I have left a great many and persons have fetched them away—I have left my cart before with goods in it—I have not seen Mr. Poole's solicitor since this affair has been going on, not at all, nor anybody from Poole's, nor Poole himself I don't know him—I saw Billingham last night, but not to go anywhere near him.
COURT. Q. Although you are not sure about the day, are you quite sure that Beard and Billingham did give you some trunks to take from your house to Northampton on some day? A. Yes—I am quite sure of that—it never happened before that Billingham came and gave me trunks to take to Northampton.
JOHN SHEPCUTT . I am assistant to the messenger in bankruptcy—I have a seizure warrant in this bankruptcy of Poole and Bryan—this is it (produced)—on 29th August, I received some information, in consequence of which I went to Kingsthorpe, and seized some goods there in the back room of a house in the occupation of Mr. Weston—I seized twenty-six trunks, containing manufactured and unmanufactured goods, boots and shoes, and silk elastics; also a hamper, containing boots and shoes, and one hundred kips sewn up in canvas in different parcels—kips are leather skins—there was a letter bag in one of the trunks, containing envelopes and cards, bearing the mark "Poole & Go,"—there was also a ball of string, and a peg iron—it was in the same trunk as the bag—after I had seized the goods, I took them to the bankrupts' warehouse at Northampton—I saw what was in the trunks after they were taken there—Fossey was present when I opened the trunks, Stone, Mr. Newton, and Mr. Dennis, the solicitor—I showed the goods and hamper to Stone, in fact, all saw them—I showed some packages of leather to a person named Butcher, who identified them—I afterwards, on 20th October, went to Billingham's house under a search warrant that I received from the Court—Butcher and Beard went with me—I saw Billingham there and saw some goods there—I seized Home trunks in the first floor of his house—the trunks were partly filled with wearing apparel—I showed them to Beard before I took them—they were not full to the top—they had nothing else in them but wearing apparel—there were six trunks—I also seized some leather, consisting of four dozen roan skins, that is, red skins—I found them between the bed and the mattress, on which an elderly lady was lying, who, I understood, was bedridden for seven years—that was in the parlour of Billingham's house—they were covered over—I searched the bed, at least, I felt between the bed: and mattress—the first dozen I pulled out the edges of them were covered over with a piece of new ticking—I made a further search, and found three dozen more with the edges covered over with a white counterpane—Billingham was present at the time I took them—I showed them to Mr. Newton and Butcher.
COURT. Q. What do you mean by the edges being covered over, do you mean the things were sewn on them? A. No—the skins were laid in between the bed and the mattress, and the edges were tucked in—among the leather I found a piece marked "P. and Co."
MR. HOLL. Q. Where was that? A. Among some flock at the top of the house—I found a bag of leather in a warehouse up Red Lion-yard, in the occupation of Billingham—it is not a room in the house where he lives, but a separate warehouse—the piece of stamped leather was found at the top of his house—I was present when it was picked out by Butcher—there was other leather there, but this was the only piece marked "P. & Co."—the leather I found was what is called kip offal—there might be about two hundred weight altogether there—I do not remember exactly.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Look at that piece of paper (producing one), read over the items in it to yourself; would those articles correspond with the articles you found in Billingham's house? A. Yes, except that here is six dozen roan, and there was only four dozen—with regard to the goods I seized at Western's, notice was given to me by a person who I afterwards understood was Mr. Cooke, a gentleman of Walsall—he came and said he had bought the goods—I handed the notice over to Mr. Dennis—I think that was about two days after I had seized the goods—I seized them on the 29th—Ball came with Mr. Cooke when ha made the claim.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTYNE. Q. Do you recollect what Cooke said? A. He said that he had bought the goods, and he should claim them—he gave me a notice to that effect—he did not tell me when he had bought them, merely that he had bought them, and should claim them—Ball was with him—no further conversation took place between us—I have seen Mr. Cooke here twice during these proceedings.
THOMAS STONE . I live at Northampton—in August last I lived at Earls Barton—I am a shoe agent—on 13th August last, Beard came to me—I gave him a hamper of boots and shoes—I packed them myself—I afterwards saw that hamper again at a warehouse in Bull-head-court—that was on 31at August—it was shown to me by Mr. Shepcutt, the messenger—it contained the same goods I had seen before—they were not packed in the same manner, only the bottom row.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. How long have you been in the habit of supplying Messrs. Poole with goods? A. From September, 1859—from that time up to August I was constantly supplying them with goods—they were goods of the ordinary description, generally packed in hampers—this one was packed in the same sort of way as my goods were usually packed.
HENRY FOSSEY . I am a packer in Poole and Bryan's employ—I left then on 13th August, having been in their employ about a year and seven months-there was no packer besides me for the last twelve months—it was my duty to superintend the packing, and see all the goods that went out—I was present when some goods which were seized at Kingsthorpe were opened, there were several of us opening them—I opened twelve or thirteen of the trunks, there were about twenty-six altogether—I might have examined four or five of the trunks of boots and shoes—they were not packed in the usual way—none of those I saw opened had been packed by me, and they were not in the same sized trunks—we used to pack spring sides in a different sized trunk altogether—we used to pack Wellingtons in one size trunks—these were put in without paper or anything—we used to use felt inside the trunks, and most of them had two sorts of boots and shoes in one trunk—I always packed one kind in one trunk—there was more than one trunk in which there were different kinds of boots and shoes mixed—some had got boots and some spring sides—I cannot tell you how many had boots and how many had spring sides; I saw twelve—goods were sometimes put in by other parties, but they all came through my superintendance
afterwards—other persons packed besides me when we were busy—there night be four or live trunks packed during that time, but they had all to come down stairs afterwards and pass through my hands, because they had to be numbered in writing—these twelve trunks had not passed through my hands, they could not have left the warehouse in July in the ordinary course without my knowledge—I saw this peg iron on 31st August—I did not see it taken out of the trunk—I had last seen it on 13th August in the shoe room at Poole and Bryan's warehouse at Northampton—I used it myself—I saw this letter bag on 31st August; it laid in the trunk open when it was shown to me—I had last seen it on 9th or 10th August, when Mr. Poole's boy who worked in the warehouse was bringing the letters in—I never saw but one letter bag—amongst the boots and shoes I particularly identified, five pairs were patent spring sides, which I had taken myself out of one of the trunks; they were made inferior—I showed them to Mr. Poole—I had taken the work in, and he sail they must be put on one side, but they must be paid for; they were made by Skempton of Arkwood, an agent—I know these five pairs—I had last seen them on 11th August when they came into the shoe room at Northampton—I was in the employ of Poole and Bryan seven months during that time—Graham and Tobias were the chief persons they supplied, with one or two exceptions—I know of tales to no other persons, except ten trunks they sent to Manchester, marked M. and a few which went to the dept in London—I know of no transaction with Mr. Cooke of Walsall.
Cross-examined. Q. How long had Skempton been in the habit of supplying boots? A. Twelve months or more; spring sides, and boots, and all—this peg iron is a common sort of thing—I have a mark which I know it by; I worked with it—here are two marks—here, and here is a mark where the man Beard filed it; we only had this one—we were not used to pegging until the last two or three months—we had a man on purpose to peg after that—we have peg drivers but not peg rasps—we have been rasping for three months and only used one—we did a large business with it.
THOMAS BUTCHER . I am a currier, and live at Northampton—I was in the employ of Poole and Bryan—I know Mr. Shepcutt—I went with him to Poole's warehouse in Bull-head-lane, Northampton, on 29th or 30th August—he showed me five dozen skins and some kips, they were Poole's—that warehouse had belonged to the bankrupts—I had last seen those kips on 15th August, in the currier's shop in Bull-head-lane.
Cross-examined. Q. Kips are kips all the world over, there is not much difference in them, is there? A. Well, there is a difference; they are leather, tome are large and some smaller; a kip is the skin of a small beast, I mean one of the horned cattle—I know Mr. Beard; he and I had a quarrel at the beginning of August—I took out a summons against him for an assault in August—it was about the middle of August—it was heard on the Friday following—that was not after Mr. Poole's bankruptcy, it was somewhere about a week before the time that I went to see the kips on 29th August—the result was, that he was bound over to keep the peace—I have had something to do with kips before, it is my duty to wax them.
WILLIAM BALL . I was in the employ of the bankrupts at the time of their bankruptcy, and had been so about fourteen months—on 13th August, about 8 o'clock in the morning, we received orders not to go to work again till Thursday—we went to work, and the warehouse gates were closed
against us—on 30th August, I received a message, in consequence of which I went to Kingsthorpe, where I found Poole—he said that there had been some goods seized the day before, from the premises next door—that was some rooms that Chapman had occupied—we were then at Chapman's house—he wanted me to assist him to get them back again, and to see Mr. Dawson of St. Giles' Street, Northampton, an attorney—I was to bring Dawson back to Kingsthorpe—I went to Dawson's, and brought a message that he and Mr. Chapman were to go to Northampton to see Mr. Dawson about 10 o'clock or half-past, on the same day—after I had delivered that message, one of them, I cannot tell which, mentioned Mr. Cooke—they were both present—they said they had telegraphed to Walsall for Cooke to come up to claim the goods, as being the purchaser—they said Cooke would be a likely man to be sent for—I cannot say how far Walsall is from there—you are about two hours or two hours and a half going—you have to go round by Birmingham—that was all that was said at that time—Poole then went to Mr. Dawson's office with Mrs. Cave, his housekeeper, who had been present at the latter part of the interview—that was over the breakfast table—I did not accompany them—she was present when the conversation took place about telegraphing for Cooke, and that he was a likely man—I and Chapman then went to Northampton, and we went to Dawson's about half-past 10—Mr. Dawson was engaged—we waited some time and when we were asked up stairs, Mr. Poole was with Mr. Dawson, and nobody else—Poole said, in the presence of both Dawson and Chapman, that I must come up to London to fetch some boots—he told Dawson that I had been his foreman, and that I must say that I packed the goods which were seized at Kingsthorpe—I hesitated some time, and Poole said, "It is all right, there will be nothing at all the matter"—he said that Mr. Cooke of Walsall would be there as soon as he could receive the telegram and come up by the train, and we were to wait at Dawson's for him—I never in my life knew of any sale whatever to Cooke—I had never packed these goods—Mr. Dawson was to draw a paper up, and I was asked to sign it—I do not think any paper was drawn up then; not till the evening—Poole stopped there, he asked me to come to London, to Quilter and Ball's office—Dawson was present and heard that request—he directed me to go to Mr. Ventris and ask him for some books; a day-book and a small book, and to tell him that the goods had been seized that were at Kingsthorpe; and that they had got a man coming up from Walsall, named Cooke, to claim them—that was, I believe, said in Dawson's hearing—I went up to London by the train, went to Ventris, delivered the message, and brought back some books to Mr. Dawson's office—I got there about half-past 7 or a quarter to 8 in the evening, and found Mr. Dawson there, Mr. Poole, and Mr. Poole's father—I have not seen Mr. Poole's father in Court during these trials—I saw him last, I think, about a week after this affair took place—I delivered the books to Mr. Poole, who put them on one side—we stopped there till 10 o'clock with Dawson, and Poole, and Poole's father—I do not think anything was done to the books that night—I do not think Cooke's name was scarcely mentioned, because he had not come from Walsall—we stayed there to have a glass of wine together, and did not leave till 10 o'clock—I went again next morning, about 10 o'clock, by myself, and found Mr. Chapman and Mr. Cooke, they having come by the first train from Birmingham—I do not think Poole was there—I saw a paper that morning which Mr. Dawson had drawn up—this (produced) is not it—the paper that I saw that morning was the one he had drawn up for Mr. Cooke to take to
the messenger at the Bankruptcy Court, and claim the goods—I saw nothing else done—I did not see the books that morning—I did not go there on any other occasion about this affair, I believe—I have been there with messages and notes once or twice—I do not believe there was any further conversation relative to Cooke's purchase.
Cross-examined. Q. Mr. Dawson gave you something written—on a piece of paper which you signed your name to; be kind enough to look at this paper and tell me whether that is it? A. Yes, this is my signature—it was only handed to me to sign—it was read over to me; the contents are false—I never changed my mind about its contents at all—I thought if I gave evidence of that nature I should most likely be punished myself, when I came to think of it—I thought that two months afterwards, after Mr. Poole was taken in custody—I was not told, till after I signed it, that I should have to come to swear to it—I said that I would not do anything which would implicate myself—I did not think that by signing that I should implicate myself: I was told to the contrary—I have been secretary to a clicker's society, and went to America, and came back, and paid them—I also was in the employ of Parker and Co. of Northampton, and took a very small portion of their money; nevertheless I had six months far it.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Were you taken back? A. Yes, with a rise of 14s. a week—I had been twenty years in their service—I was charged with embezzling about 8s. 6d.—I have a wife—my wages were 30s. a week at that time—I owed some money to this society, and when I returned from America I paid it off—I was not paid for signing this—I never received a halfpenny—I received a sovereign since for doing the job for Mr. Poole—I have had 2l. for doing various jobs and errands for him; and that is every farthing I received from any party—they all told me I should not implicate myself: I was given to understand so by Mr. Poole, and Mr. Chapman, and Mr. Dawson—I had no idea, till after I had signed it, that I should be called upon to swear to it—it was not made out at my dictation, but by Mr. Poole's dictation in my presence—Mr. Dawson wrote it down—(The paper was here read as follows: "I was in the employ of Messrs. Poole and Co., as foreman, up to 18th August last; I know Mr. Fisher, traveller to Mr. Cooke, of Walsall, I have seen him very frequently at Messrs. Poole and Co.'s warehouse, in Northampton, soliciting orders. I recollect seeing Mr. Cooke himself there on 9th July last, as near as I remember; he was in conversation with Mr. Poole, and I understood, and was afterwards informed, that he had on that day purchased a last quantity of miscellaneous stock; on 14th July I was desired by Mr. Poole to assist in the packing of the stock so purchased by Mr. Cooke, which consisted of boots, shoes, patent leather, elastic uppers of various kinds, and leather, laces, silks, and threads. I did so, with Thomas Beard the carter, and they were in due form conveyed away in the van by Beard, as I understood, to Mr. Chapman's of Kingsthorpe, for Mr. Cooke; there were in all three van loads, and they left all in the same day; the last load left, I should think, as near as I remember, about half-past 5 or 6 o'clock, p.m.").
GEORGE FREEMAN NEWTON . I live at Northampton, and am a currier and leather dealer; and am an assignee under this estate, and a creditor for close upon 6,000l. for goods supplied to him in the way of his trade—I heard of his stopping payment, and some little time after that I received information which induced me to watch his premises—I began to watch on Saturday evening the 18th—we watched for an hour or an hour and a half, and saw lights in the shop, and afterwards, about 11 o'clock, the gates opened and a
van load of goods were brought out—we followed them—I could not recognize the driver—I saw somebody go up and speak to him—it was Ventris, I have no doubt at all of him, because I followed them five or six hundred yards and saw that he and one or two others were there—there were plenty of gas-lights about—I have no doubt of him; and I spoke to him afterwards the same evening—after Ventris had spoken to the driver, the driver quickened his pace and succeeded in getting right away, and I was not able to ascertain what became of the goods that night—I might say, what I have not stated before, that my son, who was with me, went home and fetched his horse and went after them, but he found nothing.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know what was in the van? A. No.
SAMUEL BRYAN . I am one of the bankrupts, and live at Northampton—this day-book and ledger were kept in our establishment—this account in the day-book, headed to Cooke, is in Poole's writing—I know nothing of the transaction—I first heard of it, after the docket was struck, when the goods came back from Kingsthorpe—I then heard of it from Poole—here is an account in the ledger relating to a payment to Captain Poole—I know nothing of that—it is in Poole's handwriting—we suspended payments on 14th August.
Cross-examined. Q. Had you had any conversation with Poole about his father, some time previous to August? A. Not that I recollect—I understood him, two or three weeks before 14th August, to say that he should sell some goods to pay his father some money, I do not remember to a day.
COURT. Q. You see the entry to Cooke in that day-book, when had you last seen the day-book to read its contents? A. I had not seen it for some time before we stopped—I had not seen it between 11th July and the time we stopped, nor had I seen the ledger.
HENRY BRYANCE . I am in the employ of Messrs. Pick ford and Co.—on 18th August I delivered a trunk at 4, St. Paul's street, Islington—Ventris was the name at the house—it came from Brampton by the London and North Western Railway.
THOMAS DYKES . I am a boot and shoe maker—on the 13th October, in consequence of an advertisement I saw, I went to No. 46, Goswell-street, and left my address, after which, Mr. Ventris called on me and I made an appointment to meet him in the evening, at 46, Goswell-street, which is a coffee-house—I went and saw Ventris there—he took me up into a back room, unlocked a trunk, and emptied the contents—I saw boots, shoes, leather, elastic, and ready closed uppers—I selected a portion of the goods—a portion of them were marked P. and Co.—I rejected the rest, which were square-toed boots, not at all suitable for the London market—they were suitable for Australia, or Liverpool, or down in the country—the value of the whole which I selected and rejected, was 16l. or 18I.—the box was covered in the ordinary way, with a dark oil cloth.
HENRY GODDARD . I was employed for the assignees as accountant; to examine the accounts of the bankrupts, and was engaged to prepare a balance sheet required by the Court—in the course of my duty, I entered up in this book, some accounts which were not entered in it before—when this ledger came into my hands, there was no account which was not indexed, except that of Captain Poole—Captain Poole's was not indexed—Ventris's address is somewhere at Islington.
Cross-examined. Q. When did you receive the books? A. We were first engaged by order of the assignees; the books never came into our possession
—we had to attend at the official assignee's office to examine the accounts, that was after the 30th August.
G. F. NEWTON (re-examined). I received this circular from Quilter and Ball, on, I believe, the 15th August—(This was signed Poole and Go. and stated that owing to serious losses in trade they had been compelled to suspend payments, that they had placed their books in the hands of Quilter, Ball, and Co. and requested Mr. Newton to send in the particulars of his claim)—I know the bankrupt's writing—I have some little doubt about this letter being his writing—I should not like to swear it.
Witnesses for the Defence.
ROGER DAWSON . I am a solicitor residing at Northampton—I know a person named Cooke, of Walsall—I know the prisoner—I know a man named Beard, in the employ of Poole—on 20th August, Mr. Thomas Chapman came to my office and told me he was the agent of Mr. Cooke, of Walsall, that a large quantity of leather and other things had been seized by the messenger of the Court of Bankruptcy, which belonged to Mr. Cooke—Mr. Chapman was a perfect stranger to me then, as was also Mr. Poole and Mr. Cooke—I asked where Mr. Cooke was, and he said that he was at Walsall—I said the best thing would be for Mr. Cooke to come to me himself; and in about an hour or so, Mr. Poole came to me, and told me who he was, and that he came respecting the goods that had been seized at kingsthorpe, belonging to Mr. Cooke, at Walsall—I said, "Well, do not they belong to the creditors"—he said that they had been sold to Mr. Cooke many weeks before the bankruptcy, and that it was a disgraceful proceeding on the part of the assignees: I then told him that I had seen Mr. Chapman—Mr. Cooke came to me, and told me that a messenger was in possession of his house, and he was in great trouble—I never saw William Ball there on that day, 30th August, or the following day—I cannot recollect that he ever was there with Mr. Poole and Mr. Chapman—the first time I saw Mr. Bail was some days after 3rd September—I am quite sure I did not see him to my knowledge on 30th August—the first time I saw him on this business, was some days after the 3rd September—he came by himself to my office—he stayed about ten minutes—I remember his coming again (Looking at the paper)—this is the occasion I allude to—that was, I should think, a day or two after 3rd September—no one was present but myself and William Ball—the upper portion of this paper is in my writing—he told me that he came to state what he knew about the goods purchased by Mr. Cooke, of Walsall—I immediately took up this paper, these examinations being on it, and said, "Now, Mr. Ball, just tell me what you have to say," and alter I had done so, he read it over, and put his name to it.
COURT. Q. What did you say to him? A. I asked him first what he came for, and he said, to say what he knew about Mr. Cooke of Walsall's goods—he began a statement, and I took it down in the ordinary way—after I had written to the end, he said, "That is all," and he read it over himself and put his name to it—I believe I read over to him previously what Beard and Jameson had stated.
MR. BEST. Q. Had you taken Beard's and Jameson's evidence before? A. Yes, on the same day, 3d September—on 3d September, Mr. Poole and Captain Poole came to my office, and were followed in a short time by Jameson and Beard—Mr. Beard told me that he had directed them to come as
they were the witnesses who could prove the sale to Cooke—I asked Beard what he knew about it: he stated a number of facts—after he had done, I took out this piece of paper from my drawer, and said, "Now, Beard, state it over again, and I will write down what you have got to say"—he stated it again—and I wrote down what he stated, of course putting it in form—I do not mean to say be used these words, but I put it down the same as clerks to solicitors and Magistrates take down a statement on oath—this is what I took down—I read it over to him, and he sat down in my chair and wrote his name to it—I never sent Ball to London to get some books from Poole—Poole never sent Ball to London in my presence for some books—no books were brought to my office, certainly not.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Am I to understand that you were acting as Cooke's solicitor? A. Yes; I had only a verbal retainer—I had no knowledge of Cooke, or Poole, or Chapman—I proceeded to act in this matter without any retainer—I consider myself in the light of an attorney to Cooke—I have no clerk—I had a servant on 30th August—I mean to represent that I do not know that Poole came to my house on the 30th—I never saw him, but when Mr. Poole and his father were with me, a person came for them—that was on the 30th—Mr. Chapman came with a message to me between 9 and 10 o'clock on the morning of the 30th, and I saw him—it was not a request that I should go over to Kingsthorpe—I have no recollection of a request being made that I would go to Kingsthorpe—I will not undertake to swear that nobody brought me a message to go there, but I have no recollection of it—supposing such a message had been brought, and I had not seen the messenger, I cannot say who would be the person who saw him, unless it was the servant—I had only one servant, but my son was at home—I have no recollection of a message being brought to me to go over to Kingsthorpe, the first I heard of it was, that I saw it in a newspaper—I cannot now pledge my oath, aye or no, that such a message was sent—I have no recollection of sending back a message that the party should come over to me—I will not swear that I did not—the first person I saw on this business was Mr. Barwell, a furniture broker at Northampton—he came at 9 o'clock in the morning, and said that there had been a seizure at Kingsthorpe, and that the parties would come down to me about it, and they came—Chapman was alone when he came first—I sent no message by him—I told him that the best way was for Mr. Cooke to come up to me himself—Cooke came the next morning—I saw Poole the next day about 11 o'clock, or rather later, Cooke not being present—Poole gave me no documents—I saw him again that night: Captain Poole was also present with us; nobody else—I think it was between 9 and 10 when he left—I was called to my door about 2 o'clock, and Poole said that the messenger was in his house, and he did not know what to do; and would I allow him to remain there and read the newspaper—I dined by myself—he remained there from 2 till about half past nine—I went into the office and said, "Have you dined?"; he said, "No;" I said, "Come in and take something to eat:" and while he was there something transpired, that he was the cousin of an old schoolfellow of mine, a person of very good family; and about two hours afterwards his father, Captain Poole, came and amused us with his Peninsular stories, and we sat there till it was between 9 and 10 o'clock—it was hospitality to the friend of an old schoolfellow—leather was never introduced—there was not a word about boots, to my knowledge—Ball was not there any part of the time—if he has said that he joined in this convivial meeting it is a falsehood, and Captain Poole knows it to be a falsehood—undoubtedly
Ball could not have been present without his knowledge—I suppose my son is 15 years old—he was not at borne—he had not been at home in the morning—it escaped my recollection: I remember now that he was not at home, because I was alone at dinner—I did not cook my own dinner; the same servant cooked it—she had the same opportunity of seeing Captain Poole, and I believe she knew him—I suppose she would have known perfectly well if Ball had been there—she brought in coffee and cigars—there were no pipes—Captain Poole smoked—the servant did not come up to replenish the glasses—I do not know whether she let my visitors out at night, I did not hear her do it—I shook hands with the gentleman from the Peninsula, and the friend of my old schoolfellow, and I believe my servant let them out—I saw my client next morning—I had never seen him before—he was not a schoolfellow, or connected with a schoolfellow—when I saw Cooke he employed me—Captain Poole was present, and Mr. Poole, and, I think, Chapman—I produced one or two papers—there was a sort of an invoice with a receipt—Poole was living at Northampton, he represented to me that he had made a sale of goods, which were seized by the messenger, and which really belonged to Cooke—it did not occur to me to say that such a thing would be entered in some book or other—Chapman was the man who made the first communication, and Poole' afterwards—I did not ask him whether he had any entry in his books—I asked him nothing about his books at any time.
Q. On your oath, did you mean to go to trial without ascertaining whether there were any entries in Poole's books? A. Certainly, I did not ask any question about the books, and I did not think it necessary then—I have been an attorney 20 years, and I mean to say that, as an attorney of 20 years' standing, I commenced an action without any inquiry into the books—I heard afterwards that the books were in—the hands of the Bankruptcy Court—I made no inquiry about the books as a foundation to go to trial upon, and swear I had not seen them—certainly not—on my solemn oath these entries were not made in my office, and with my ink—Cooke produced some papers—I have no recollection of this paper (produced), but this other is the document he produced to me; this one with the receipt to it—it purports to be a receipted invoice, signed by Poole & Co.—Poole was present at the time—I did not inquire whether he had any entry of the transaction in his books—I asked Poole if it was so, and he said, yes, it was—I asked him what he did with the money, and he said he had given it to his father.
Q. On your oath, were those entries to the father not made in your office, and with your ink? A. I swear I never saw the books at all, or any other books—this paper (produced) was taken from me when I was given in custody—it is a copy—it is in my writing (read: "Messrs. Poole and Co, Dear Sirs—Please deliver the goods I purchased from you to-day, to Mr. Thomas Chapman, I have given him orders to sell for me. Yours truly, J. Cooke. Received the above for Jas. Cooke, tanner, Walsall, Thomas Chapman, July 11th, 1860.")—the whole of that is in my writing—it is a copy—Mr. Van Sandau must know where the original is—I do not—the original is in Mr. Cooke’s writing—I got the paper from which I copied this from Mr. Cooke or Mr. Chapman delivered it to me—Poole did not deliver it to me—that I am certain of—I do not know whether the original was among my papers at the time they were seized—I fancy it has gone to the Bankruptcy Court—it must have been with the papers—I made this copy when Mr. Cooke was there, on 11th July—allow me to look at it again—I copied it on 11th July, to the best of my recollection—no; on 31st August—I was confused—when Mr. Cooke came to me, and produced these papers, the
original was among them, and I copied this from the original—I have my diary here—I received the original of this, on the 31st, either from Mr. Cooke or Chapman—I have no recollection of the original, or of copying it, but I know I did copy it, because it is my writing—I must have seen the original, because I copied it—I have no recollection of what became of it at all, but it strikes me that it must have been with the papers taken from me at the Guildhall Police-court—I never saw the other paper that you put into my hands; not to tax my memory with it—I did not hear from Cooke that the books had been brought down—he never mentioned the books to me—Cooke said nothing about Poole's books, to my recollection—I will swear he did not—he never told me that the books had been sent for and had been brought down, nor did Chapman or Poole—I never heard a word about the books being brought down—I did not make inquiries where they were—I do not think it was mentioned between me and Cooke, that I should take the examination of any of the parties: I said that I should require a proof of the sale, before I issued any process, and it was arranged that they were to come to my office and give their evidence—I do not know how far Poole's premises are from my office—I do not know now, I believe they are at Northampton—on my oath, I have no notion where they are—I have made no inquiry—I have no doubt of their being in Northampton—it did not occur to me, a twenty years' practising attorney, while I was getting up thin case, to see what was in the books—I considered that if I proved a bond fide sale and delivery, that was quite sufficient—it never occurred to me that it was desirable to see the alleged vendor's book—it does not occur to me now that it would be desirable—I did not think it necessary, if I proved the sale and delivery; the books may be in anybody else's possession, and I should be quite satisfied with that evidence—I dare say the books would be the beat evidence—I made no inquiry about them, and I did not see them—I never saw Ball till two days after 3d. September.
Q. Here is, "29th October, 1860, I wrote to my housekeeper, Mrs. Cave, to-day, and told her to try and get Woodford to your office, so that you may make a handling of him;" what did you understand by "making a handling of him "A. Well, that letter has reference, I apprehend, to a matter of Admitt's—there were some goods seized of Admitt's—I never saw Woodford in my life till he was at the police-court, and did not know, who he was at all—I had never heard of him—this letter was written to me, and I put it among the papers and never took any notice of it at all—I was acting for Cooke, and it was represented to me that Beard was going to contradict what he had said in my office, add I recommended him to be given in custody—I know Mrs. Cave—I made no inquiry of her—I do not know what was meant by making a handling of him, no more than you do, perhaps not so much at all events, I took no steps in relation to it,—I suppose there was an inclosing in the letter, as he asks me to destroy it "in his presence"—it was a sort of receipt; a note of hand, or a receipt—it is among your papers there, the papers seized on my person—I presume this is it (produced)—I have no recollection of seeing it in the letter—it was found with the papers—I cannot identified it, but there is no doubt it is the paper—I dare say it is—I have no doubt—(read: "Northampton, 9th August, 1860. I hereby acknowledge being indebted to Mr. W. F. Johnson, of Northampton, the sum of 18l. 11s. for value received. J. Woodford. Witness, L. R. Poole.")—I do not know whether that gave me any idea of what handling Woodford meant—I paid no more regard to the letter than the in closure—I kept the inclosure.
Q. Had you the least doubt that it meant that if Woodford would give
such evidence as was desirable, you were to give back that memorandum? A. The letter would bear that inference, but I do not believe I read it.
Q, When you get a letter from a client, or a material person connected with a case, do you mean to say you do not read it? A. I may have cursorily read it over, but I paid no attention to it—though it is an I.O.U. for 18l. odd, I paid no attention to it—I knew it came from Poole—I knew he was in difficulties, and I put it by as waste paper—he had no right to write to me in that way—I did not assist him in his difficulties, nor was it my object—I think this letter was a most monstrous and injudicious one on the part of Mr. Poole—I did not write and tell him so—I told him so personally.
Q. You told me you had hardly attended to the letter at all, and did not know whether you had read it through or not; that you put it aside and never gave it a moment's thought? A. I mentioned it to him, and he told me it was respecting Admitt's matter.
Q. Then you actually had a conversation with Poole in relation to this very letter? A. I recollect I told him of it—I did not ask him who Woodford was—he told me that certain goods, belonging to Mr. Admit, had been seized by the messenger, and that John Woodford knew all about it.
Q. Did you not tell me that you had never heard Woodfbrd's name until the proceedings at the Mansion-house? A. This was about the same time—it was close upon it—the conversation with Poole was after 29th October—I never saw Cooke's books, nor asked to see them, nor for a copy of them—I did not ask him whether he had any entry of the purchase—I considered that the purchase was a legitimate transaction—I asked no questions of Poole or Cooke in relation to their books; I may have erred, but I did not think it necessary—I knew Cooke was at "Walsall—I asked him horn it happened that all the goods were at Kingsthorpe, and I asked him how he purchased them—I must have asked him how it was that they were at Kingsthorpe—I have no recollection what he said—the action was down for trial after the sittings in November term—I understood that they were taken to Kingsthorpe by Chapman's orders, as agent for Cooke—I asked him why they were taken to Kingsthorpe, and why they remained from 9th July till 29th August, and he told me that they were removed there for convenience—Cooke told me so—I understood that they were removed for Cooke's convenience, to his agent Chapman's—I did not ask what the nature of the convenience was—I should produce the witness to prove the delivery of the goods, and the sale, and I made no farther inquiry—I heard from Poole that they were put into a barn at Kingsthorpe, in the occupation, as I understood, of Chapman, and that they were removed from there by the messenger.
WILLIAM BUCKLEY JAMESON . I was in the employ of Messrs. Poole and Co. in August last—I remember 13th August, the men were dismissed that day till 6 o'clock on Thursday morning—I know Thomas Beard, who has been called, he was the carman—I did not see him moving any goods from Messrs. Poole's after 13th August—I was on the premises—I was there on 15th—I kept the keys of the warehouse, and had charge of the entire stock—I did not see Beard and Woodford there on 15th—I and my brother clerk were the only persons there the whole day—I did not see Beard or Woodford packing any goods that day, or taking any from the warehouse—no goods were packed or moved that day to my knowledge—Mr. Poole had a horse and two vans—I cannot say when I last saw Beard mate use of them—the horse was sent down to the cow meadows, or to the race course, I do
not know which—we used to send him to both places—he was sent out to grass when not in use—I do not remember when he was sent out to grass that week, because it was constantly taking place; we only fetched him when we wanted him—we always wanted him on Saturday, and sometimes on Wednesdays—I remember 16th August—that was the day when Mr. Ventris came down—I did not see Beard and Woodford at the warehouse that day—I was there all that day—they did not pack any goods or take any goods away that day—I remember 17th August—I do not know that Woodford and Beard were there that day; Mr. Poole and everybody were in London—I was told by Mr. Poole to give the keys to Ventris, and I gave them to him—I went there on 18th August, in the afternoon, and we were paid—I recollect 19th August, Sunday—I do not recollect seeing Beard and Woodford there—I saw no goods packed up that day—I was at the wire-house, I think, but I almost forget; if the horse was there it was my duty to call on Thomas Beard and unlock the place, and allow him to attend to the horse, and then lockup the place and take the keys—I had given up the keys, but if I fetched them it was only for the purpose of feeding the horse, I should not have gone on Sunday for any other purpose—during the whole week I did not see Chapman at Poole's warehouse—I know Mr. Dawson, a solicitor at Northampton; I went to his office on 3rd September—Captain Poole and Mr. Poole, and Mr. Dawson, and Thomas Beard and myself were there—I went with Beard—we went with reference to the goods that were seized at Kingsthorpe—I had not seen those goods after they came back from Kingsthorpe, which were seized there—Beard made a statement to Mr. Dawson in my presence.
COURT. Q. Explain what you mean by Beard making a statement? A. Thomas Beard was asked by Mr. Dawson what he knew of the transaction—Mr. Dawson sat there at his table and took it down, and Beard sat by me at the table—Beard then told him what he knew of the transaction—Mr. Dawson wrote it down—he told him not to be quite so fast when he was talking—after it was written down Mr. Dawson read it over to him; then Mr. Dawson rose from his chair, and Beard got out of his and went to Mr. Dawson's chair and signed it—he was asked by Mr. Dawson if it was correct, and he said it was—I then made my statement, it was read over to me, and I signed it in the same way—this paper (produced) is the statement—it is signed by me—that is true, and signed by Beard—I know of a transaction taking place of sales between Poole and Billingham—it was in May and June last—an entry was made in the book of those transactions—we kept no regular books—there was a diary there that we once had to enter things into—first we made them in one book, and then in another—we once had three or four books similar to these—I think this is the book—this entry in this book is in Poole's hand-writing—(This was headed "Sold to Billingham," and contained a list of articles Amounting to 21l.)—we had bought a lot of goods of Billingham at the time—this receipt (produced) is in Mr. Poole's handwriting.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What are you doing now? A. I am clerk to Messrs. Turner, Brothers, and Co. in Northampton, the largest manufacturers in the town—I last saw Mr. Dawson this morning—I had no communication with him about this matter particularly—I have talked over the matter certainly with him, and have talked to all the witnesses, I may say—I have spoken to Mr. Dawson about this matter this morning—I hardly know what I said to him—it was in a general way—I
talked about the point of law raised in the case yesterday—I asked him what the effect would be—he is a lawyer, and I thought I would just ask the question of him—I did not talk at all about what I was coming to swear to day—I will swear that—nothing about it, not one word—I saw Mr. Dawson before this morning, when I was in London last—I should think that was three or four weeks ago—it was during the proceedings at Guildhall—these are the books (produced) that we had at the depot in Oxford-street, but at the time the depot was given up the books came down to Northampton—that was at Christmas, 1859, at the termination of our lease—they were kept at Northampton after that, always—I kept them, and Mr. Poole—there is no other Laud writing of Poole's in this besides the account of Cooke's—yes—here is a sale to Alexander and Barnsley—there are entries after that of Cooke's, down to W. J. Pearce—that is in Poole's hand-writing, the whole of it—these books, when at Northampton, were kept in Poole'soffice—I saw them constantly, and another clerk too—we made entries in them—I don't know when I first saw this entry to Cooke—this is the book that I was in the habit of using—I had it constantly in the rack among the other books—I have seen this entry before—I saw it in our office—I saw it sometime in June last—I will swear that—I should say to from seeing it here—I will swear that I saw this entry before the 1st August—I swear that solemnly—I have not the slightest doubt in my own mind that I did—I think I can safely swear so—I have not seen this book, you know, for a long time—I will pledge my oath that I saw this entry before the 1st August, positively and undoubtedly—I have not the slightest doubt of it.
COURT. Q. You are speaking of this entry of 11th July? A. Yes.
MR. SERJEAKT BALLANTINE . Q. When did you see it? A. In July—I knew of the transaction—I dare say it was "not entered at the time—perhaps it was not—I was not in the habit, I tell you, of taking the book up—I should say the entry was made early in July—I saw it some time in July—I have not the slightest doubt on my own mind that I did—goods may have left the premises of Poole on 18th August without my knowing anything about it; a van load might have left, certainly—this entry of Wilcoxson is in Mr. Poole's writing, I will swear that, and the entry above it also—that has reference to the Northampton business—Wilcoxson is a boot and shoe manufacturer, and keeps a large boot and shoe shop in King William-street, City—he is supplied by us occasionally—this is debiting Wilcoxson—this was not the only transaction we had with him—we had several.
Q. Will you explain to the Court the transaction you had with Poole and Co. of Northampton, in July, with respect to some leather) A. On 9th or 10th July I was at Northampton, in fact I was going to buy shoes all through the county if I could for my money, and I bought these goods of Poole and Bryan—they were boots and shoes, some patent calf goods, waxed calf, and silk threads—I received an invoice of the goods I so bought at the time—this (produced) is the invoice—I bought them of Mr. Poole and paid for them the second day after—I paid for them in gold and notes; my books are here—a man named Cubley keeps them—I have two book-keepers, but Cubley managed that class of books—after buying goods and receiving an invoice we enter them all in a bought ledger—I gave Cubley this invoice to make the entry from; I think you will find his initials there
—those goods were delivered to Chapman by my orders—I do not know when exactly—in consequence of something that was communicated to me I went to Northampton about these goods—that would be on a Monday in September—I think it was the first Monday in September, if my memory serves me—I saw Chapman there—I did not see any goods that had been seized—I went with Chapman to Mr. Dawson's office—I went on purpose to see Mr. Dawson, to claim my goods—I gave him instructions to sue for them—I gave him this invoice.
Q. Who was present, at the office, besides yourself, Chapman, and Mr. Dawson? A. I saw Captain Poole there—I do not recollect seeing Ball there—I have seen Ball here—I cannot say whether he was there or not—no man was ordered there, in my presence by Chapman, to go to London to fetch any books down, nothing of the kind—I have been examined and charged with perjury in this case—I know Thomas Beard—he saw me at Walsall—he came down there to be as an ostler—I think it was somewhere about 1st October, if I am not mistaken—he did not stay with me many minutes, for I would not employ him—he did not ask me for anything; he said that he understood he ought to have some money for coming there with his goods, or something; I do not remember anything else—I did not give him any money, I would not, and would not employ him—I told him to go about his business there and then.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you know any person of the name of Simpson at Northampton? A. Do I know any person of the name of Simpson; I beg your pardon.
COURT. Q. That is the question you are asked. A. No, I do not.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Nobody of that name? A. No—I can't say that I know anything of any such person—I do not know that I ever spoke to a man of the name of Simpson in my life.
ALFRED CHARLES WOODWARD (examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE). I belong to one of the telegraph-offices in Telegraph-street, City—I have a message of the date of 1st October, 1860—if his Lordship orders me to produce it I shall be happy to do so, otherwise I cannot, under our rules of secrecy (Under the direction of the Court the witness produced the paper).
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE to JAMES COOKE. Q. Look at that and tell me whose handwriting that is in? A. Not in mine—I knew of that message—It is signed by me, but written by one of my clerks—it is, "The party has arrived all safe, without a blemish"—it is from James Cooke, written by my traveller, to John Simpson, of 17, St. George's-street, Northampton—I am sure I could not say what was the meaning of that telegraphic message—as far as it goes I should say it was a little bit of nonsense on the part of my traveller—I had my brother, a tanner of Kidderminster, dining with me that day, when he came to me, and I said, "You had better send a telegraphic message," and he brought this to me and I signed it and thought no more of it—that is as straightforward as I can tell you, I am sure—I did not see Beard on 1st October—I know that was the day he came, but I was engaged—it must have been the day he came—I did not know that 17, St. George's-street, Northampton, was Poole's house—I will swear that—I do not know it now—I do not know what street he lives in—I account for that telegram, as I say, by my traveller sending it down.
Q. Who is the party that has arrived without a blemish? A. He must mean Beard, of course; I should think so—I don't know what he said that for—I can't imagine why it should apply to Beard in any shape or form; I
cannot think why it should he said—I say it applies to Beard, because the mail was coming down to me as ostler—it was a bit of nonsense on the part of the young man, no doubt about it—after I saw Beard I would not have anything to do with him—I saw him a day or two after he came—my traveller told me he was to call again next day; he did not—he said he was going to Birmingham—I did not know whether it applied to Beard or not; of course it must—I said the conversation applied to Beard, not the telegram—it must have applied to Beard—I don't think I have any doubt about it—it meant that Beard had arrived—I don't know why I should have telegraphed to Northampton that Beard had arrived—I can't give any reason—I cannot imagine why it was—Mr. Fisher, my traveller, saw him fist, and he gave him a note or something—I never heard of Simpson—my name is to the telegram, but my traveller did it, I did net know anything about the words he said in it; he brought it to me and I signed it, at dinner, and he sent it away—I may say I did not read it down—I would not swear I did not—I am not sure whether I knew what was in it or not—I did not know what was in it before I signed it—this is the first time I knew what was in it; I merely signed it, I did not know what was said in it—of course this is the first time I knew what was in it—I will not swear it, I may have read it and I may not; I do not recollect it—this is the invoice that I delivered over to Mr. Dawson (selecting it), I know the other—this is a copy of the goods I bought, and then, upon going down again on the Wednesday after I got a stamped receipt and got my money—they are in Poole's writing—I gave them both to Mr. Dawson—I explained to Mr. Dawson what I have explained here; I believe I said that the one was a copy of the other; I did say so—I did not receive both these at the same time—I received the one without a stamp first, the copy of the order—I received the first when I bought the goods, and the other when I paid the money—I did not buy the goods and pay the money on the same day, it was a day or two after, I think I bought them on the 9th and paid on the 11th.
Q. Look at that, dated the 9th, and you will find at the bottom of it, "Paid, at the same time." A. That may be, because the 9th was the day I was there; it is possible Poole may have made cot this invoice on the Mine day and got it ready for me against I went down—I have a bookkeeper, and there are entries of the transaction in my books.
Q. How came you to consult Dawson? A. Because my agent had previously done it—I was telegraphed for—I do not know exactly which day it was that I arrived—I received several telegrams from Chapman—I think the one by which I learnt that the goods at Kingsthorpe had been seized, was about 3d or 4th September; I am not sure which—I can't say whether I was there on 31st August—I can't say whether I was telegraphed for on the 30th, and arrived on the 31st—no one fetched me—I am not aware that anyone fetched me—I am not aware that Chapman came and fetched me; he was there—I won't say positively that he did not come for me, and that I did not come back with him on the morning of 31st August; I have been in Northamptonshire so much during these two or three months—I remember the first day I saw Dawson—I can't say whether Ball was or was not present at the time I had the first interview with Dawson—I will not swear anything about it because I do not know that the man was present—I will not swear either way, because it would be wrong of me to do so—I explained to Dawson that I had the entries of the sale in my books—I had not got my books with me—I do not know that anything was said about showing the books—I told him the entries had been made by my clerk
—I am quite sure I told him that, at least I would not swear I told him exactly those words; I should think it would be to that effect—Poole was not present that I am aware of; I do not recollect—I do not recollect whether he was or was not—the first person I saw on getting to Northampton after the seizure of the goods was Chapman—I did not afterwards, and before I went to Dawson's, see Poole—Chapman did not tell me that Poole's books had been sent for to Ventris; nothing of the kind—I did not heir that they had been sent for—I did not see Poole's books; not at all down there; at least, I saw some books in Mr. Dawson's office, but I do not think they were account books—they were some of his own books—they were not open—I saw a book lying on the table—it may have been his own book for what I know—I do not know whether they were account books—they might be law books for what I know—I saw books there—a book was not referred to; no book was referred to me—I am sure I cannot say that no entry was referred to in any book, the time is so long ago—I do not recollect whether there was anything of the kind—I do not recollect Chapman having told me anything about the entries in the books, that they were all right—they were not referred to in my presence by Dawson that I know of—I will not say on my oath—I forget, if there was anything.
Q. I ask you, on your oath, whether that very book was not lying upon the table at Dawson's office, and whether it was not referred to in convention between you and him? A. I do not recollect, I can assure you.
Q. Just look at the entries, because they have a material bearing upon your case; I ask you whether that entry, which agrees with your invoice, was not compared with the invoice in your presence? A. I beg your pardon; I did not hear that last part, I was looking at the book; you say the invoice and in the book.
COURT. Q. You see the entry in the book? A. Yes—I do not recollect seeing the book at all.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. It cannot be a question of recollection—I ask you whether you saw that particular book, and whether the entries in that or in some book were not read and compared with the invoice? A. Not in my presence; I do not recollect anything of the kind—it is possible it might occur and I forget it—I do not recollect that those very items were called over and that that book was referred to—I do not recollect whether it was or not—I do not recollect that it was introduced at all—(looking at a paper) this is not in my handwriting—I could not swear whether it was Dawson's—I never saw it before—I never had it in my hands before—I believe it may be a paper that I saw at Guildhall, but not to read it—I have read it carefully through now—unless I saw it at Guildhall I never saw it before—I never saw it before seeing it at Guildhall, and then I did not see it except as it was held up by Sir Robert Carden—I have read it now—I know of a document of the same kind—it was a document on a piece of paper, written different to this, though, the delivery of the goods—I suppose this is a copy—it is not in my handwriting—I gave the original into the hands of Mr. Dawson—I swear that—I have never had it back—I believe it was in those very words.
Q. How came you by it? A. gave the order to deliver the goods to Chapman.
Q. But how came you by this order, that is what I want to know—this is your own order for the delivery of the goods, how did it come out of your possession into the possession of Dawson? A. I do not understand you.
Q. I will read it to you, it is dated, "July 9th—Dear sir,—Please deliver
the goods I have purchased from you to-day to Mr. Thomas Chapman; I have given him orders to sell for me. Yours truly, James Cooke."—this is a paper that would be in the hands of Poole? A. Yes but I believe I gave Mr. Dawson a copy of the order I gave; he wanted to know in which way I gave it, that was it—the order I gave and of which I say this is a a copy, was made from memory, I suppose—Mr. Dawson asked me to give him a copy—I suppose it must have been made from memory; I am sure I forget—I cannot say why I did not get the order from Poole.
MR. BEST. Q. Was this telegraphic message ever shown to you before to-day, since the time you signed your name to it? A. No.
THOMAS CULBLEY . I am a clerk in the employ of Mr. Cooke of Walsall—I keep his books—I produce the book in which the trade accounts are entered—I received this invoice (produced) and entered it up in the bought book—I believe it was on 12th July that I received it—I have the bought book with me (producing it)—after entering it there I entered it in the cash book as well, as paid—I have the cash-book with me—after that I filed it—my initials are on the bottom of it; that enables me to speak to it.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Let me look at your book 1 A, It is the bottom entry on the second page—it is my hand-writing.
COURT. Q. Let us see the entry in the cash-book (it was handed in). Your entries in this cash-book do not seem to me to be in order of date exactly? A. No; you will find, if you look through oar cash-book, that is frequently the case—our travellers were out, and received monies on certain dates and we did not make the entries consecutively—we make several entries together—the transaction of Poole and Bryan are all my writing—I should not say they were written with the same ink, and at the same time, a day or two after—I am certain that the entry about Poole and Bryan was written at the time I say, on or about 9th July—I can speak with confidence to that—it was written the day he gave me the document, the receipt—I am not aware that there is anything in the book to show that particularly.
Q. That entry of Poole and Bryan is at the very bottom of the page, and turning over, there is no page or two afterwards filled up; are you quite certain that you wrote that entry while the two following pages were blank? A. Yes; I am quite sure of it (the book was handed to the Jury)—I have the ledger here (producing it)—I am certain that I made the entry of Poole and Bryan in the bought book on 12th or 13th July, I am not certain which—it is very probable that there may be a previous entry, dated 30th July—We frequently let our invoices run, goods do not come in for a fortnight or three weeks, and we do not enter them up until we get the goods—I do not know how this entry came to be made after one of 30th July, unless I had got the invoices to refer to—the probability is that those are entries of 30th June—the top of the page is headed "July," but you will find many things of that sort, if you look through the book—for instance, here is 30th and here is the 21st (referring to the book)—these must refer to June invoices—I have not got them here to refer to—if they had not come into my hands previous to the 30th, probably I should not enter them till that date—I have no doubt these are invoices of 30th June, instead of July, and that they did not come into my hands until the latter part or middle of July—these figures refer to the folios in the ledger—here is the entry in the ledger—it is 30th July here—this would not be posted from the invoice, but from the bought book—I should take the same date that was there, therefore the mistake, if it was one, would run through the books—this "21" means July 21st—
of course these would all run the same here, on account of being posted up in July—these figures are a reference to the number of the invoice—we have not brought the invoices here—this reference does not help me to fix the date—there is no reference to the cash-book in any of the previous entries on this page.
MR. BEST. Q. Will you explain what is the custom in your office in respect of invoices? What do you do with them when you receive them? A. They are put in a clip similar to a letter-clip—they are put there as they come in—sometimes they remain in the clip a fortnight or three weeks before they are posted up—we do not sort them at all before posting—we enter them in the book just in the order in which they are in the clip, so that the 30th would be at the top, and the 1st at the. bottom—this invoice of the 12th I entered in the cash-book at the time, not in this book—I placed it among the invoices till it was posted, and then filed it; having the receipt it would not go among the regular invoices.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Have you an invoice-book? A. No; this what we call the bought book, that we enter our invoices up in.
GEORGE BILLINGHAM . I am a furniture broker and general dealer and live in the Horse-market, Northampton—I had some dealings with Poole and Bryan in May and June last; this invoice (produced) contains the account of the goods I received from Poole and Co. up to the 20th June—I remember Mr. Shepcutt coming to my house and making a seizure of goods there—those goods were a portion of the same goods that are contained in this invoice, something like half, or hardly half of them, I should think, according to my calculation—I had them all together when I made the purchase of Poole—the goods that Shepcutt seized were the same goods I purchased of Poole—Shepcutt took away about half; a portion I had sold; those he seized were a portion of the purchase—I never went with Beard on 20th August last, to Hartwell, to Jeff's, the carrier.
COURT. Q. Did you ever go with Beard, to Jeff, the carrier's, at all! A. No.
MR. BEST. Q. Did you ever get any goods at all from Jeffs the carrier's cart at the Red Lion, at Northampton, on the 20th August last? A. No, I never got any trunks or leather at all from Jeff's cart—I have been charged with perjury too.
Cross-examined. Q. Who is the old lady in your parlour, that is bedridden? A. My wife's mother—I know how the leathers came to be inside the bed, it was because they were soiled, and they were put them to recover their proper degree of look, as regards the colour of them; when damaged they require to have gradual warmth—I put those goods into the bed in order to give them gradual warmth—too much cold or too much heat would damage them—they were only put there to recover their beauty, to get gradually warm—that was the best place we could put them in—the boxes found in my upstairs room, came in June, or some other time—I made a purchase of those, not from Poole, from a party who wished to bring them—I purchased many other articles in the same way—I purchased the boxes—I purchased many goods of plenty of people—the boxes did not contain the boots and shoes when I bought them—I bought them empty—I cannot tell who the parties were that I bought them of—I buy many goods where I do not know who the parties are—I do not keep a book of all these things—I keep a book for one purpose, for credit that I give, but not for what I purchase—the purchase of the trunks would not be found anywhere—I know nothing of a cart being left in the gangway of
the Red Lion, with a lot of goods in it—I never heard of it—I never had such a transaction as that—I never was mixed up with such a transaction—I dare say it might be at the latter end of June, that I put the leather in the old lady's bed—I did it myself—she was in the bed at the time—my wife was present at the time—she and I put them in together, at the end of June.
MR. BEST. Q. The old lady did not object to it, I suppose? A. No.
OLD COURT—Saturday, January 12th, 1861.
PRESENT—MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN; Mr. Ald. HALE; and Mr. Ald. JAMES LAWRENCE.
Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.
The proceedings in bankruptcy were put in as in the former cases.
GEORGE BLINK . I was present when Ventris was examined, on the 15th November—he was sworn before Mr. Hazlitt, the Registrar of the Court of Bankruptcy, in Basinghall-street, in my presence—after he was sworn I took down his examination—I read it over to him afterwards, and he signed every sheet—(This, being read, stated that he did not speak to the man who drove the van from the time they left Poole's premises, until he lost sight of the van near Dychurch-lane—that from the period he received the keys of the bankrupts' warehouse, until he handed them to Mr. Sharman, no other goods were removed from the warehouse except the van load that went to Pearce's on the Saturday night; and that he had no reason to believe any goods were re-moved from the bankrupts' warehouse, other than those removed to Pearce's between Wednesday, 15th August, and Tuesday, 21st August.)
THOMAS BEARD . I was formerly a carman in the employ of Poole and Bryan—on the evening of 13th of August, I received orders to go to Earl's Barton, and went there, to the house of Mr. Stone, an agent for Poole—where I received a large hamper of boots—Mr. Stone packed them—I took the hamper to Thomas Chapman's, at Kingsthorpe, and left it in the coach house—on the 14th I went to London, and returned on the 15th—I went to Poole's house, 17, George-street, Northampton, and received orders from him and Chapman—Ventris was in the parlour, but he was not present when I received the orders—I afterwards went to Poole's factory, and packed six or seven trunks with Wellington boots, and spring sides, and Bluchers, and half Wellingtons—I then received orders from Poole and Chapman, and took the trunks to Chapman's house, at Kingsthorpe—I left the factory with them about ten o'clock, and by Chapman's direction, went a round-about way to Chapman's house, and put them in his coach-house—Ventris was. not present when I was packing any of these goods—we received orders to go to the factory the next day, Thursday, the 16th—Poole, Chapman, Ventris, and Woodford were with me—we packed about twenty trunks with Wellington boots and spring sides, and different things—we were engaged all day, and Ventris was there all day: hg saw what we
were doing were doing—after we had packed the trunks, Mr. Poole ordered Woodford and me to load them in the van and the light spring cart—Chapman and Ventris were present, and Chapman ordered us to take them to his house at Kingsthorpe—Ventris was still present—we took them—I drove the van, and Woodford drove the cart—we left the factory about twelve o'clock at night, and got to Chapman's about half-past twelve—we left the goods in the coach-house, where we had put the others—I was at the factory on the morning of 18th August, when Mr. Pearce, an auctioneer of Northampton, came—Poole, Chapman, and Ventris were present—after Mr. Pearce came, we received orders to begin to weigh some bales of leather—we weighed about thirteen bales—Pearce was present the whole time we weighed them—we did not weigh or take out any other goods while Pearce was present—I did not take out or show to Pearce, any other goods but these bales of leather—I was present all the time till Pearce left—after we had weighed these bales, we took them to Mr. Pearce's warehouse, in Dychurch-lane—we went twice; there were two loads—we got there before dinner time, as near as I can state—after that, between four and five o'clock, or it 'may be a little later—the men were paid by Mr. Ventris, after which I received orders from Mr. Poole, in the presence of Ventris and Woodford, to remove the goods out of the office, which the work people had brought in that day, into the factory—those had been brought in after Mr. Pearce was there—we removed them into the factory, and packed them into from six to seven trunks—we had orders to take them to Mr. Pearce's warehouse—Ventris and Woodford were present—some were finished goods, some un-finished, and some were leather—there were solving leather, and a lot of red roan besides—I do not know whether that is what are called "kips" in the trade; they are entire skins—after we had packed these six or seven trunks, we got orders from Poole, in Ventris's presence, to take them to Mr. Pearce's warehouse, between ten and eleven on Saturday night—Woodford went with me—before we got to the warehouse, Mr. Ventris came to me, told me that I was watched, and that I must give the watchers a good chase—we did not after that take them to Pearce's—I drove by Pearce's and went to Mr. Poole's—I might have gone a little faster after Ventris spoke to me—we left the goods at Poole's house, in the stable—Woodford assisted me—I saw Poole and Ventris again that night, but did not say anything to them—they were at Mr. Poole's house when we arrived, and saw us unload them—Ventris saw the goods brought back to Poole's house, and saw where they were put—on the following day I received orders from Poole, and went to Chapman's house, at Kingsthorpe—I got there a little after six, and saw Thomas Chapman—Woodford went with me—Chapman took us into the kitchen of his house—we remained there till eleven o'clock that night—he then went with me to show me where the barn was, where he wanted the things put—that was one or two hundred yards from the coach-house—we removed a lot of trunks of boots and shoes which we had taken there the week before—there were from twenty-six to twenty-seven, and a hamper—we put them into a barn belonging to one of his neighbours—it was about two o'clock on Monday morning, when we finished—we then returned to Poole's house, and got there about half-past two; we found the side gate left undone, and the back door too: we went in and found Billingham, who is a broker in the horse-market, at Northampton, who gave us orders, and after receiving them, Woodford and I loaded the van with the trunks and other things which we had left there on the Saturday night, and Billingham assisted us; I mean the goods which we had started to go
to Pearce's with, and had taken to Poole' s—after we had loaded them into the van, Billingham and I took them, to a place called Hartwell, which is six or seven miles from Northampton, the way we went—when we got there ire left them at a carrier's house—that is the carrier (Jeffs)—we put the goods in his cart, and he started in his cart after Billingham and me, who were in the van—I saw the cart start—after we got back to Northampton, I saw the goods again in the carrier's cart, under the Red Lion yard, which is a public-house opposite Billingham's—that was about ten o'clock in the morning—I saw the goods again when they were found—I went with Mr. Shepcutt to Billingham's house, I think it was on 29th October—we found six boxes in one of the bedrooms, which were similar to what we removed to Hartwell on the morning of 20th August—we found a lot of leather upstairs, in a garret, and a lot of spring side tops—a few Wellington boot tops, unfinished, and a bag of leather was found on his premises, in Red Lion-yard—I was not present when any goods where found in the back-parlour—I saw them afterwards put into the cart—the messenger showed them to me—we had packed a lot of goods the same as those in the trunks before, but I could not recognise them—that was the red leather—I allude to the trunks which we packed on Saturday night and started to Hartwell with.
Cross-examined by MR. PALMER. Q. Were you formerly in the employment of Poole? A. Yes—I have been examined in this Court three times—I am the man who sold the gig lamps, and who sold the curtains for 32s.—I know the dates of these transactions, because I put them down in my pocket-book—this is it (produced)—the first date was put down on 13th August—these dates were put down at night, on the days that the transactions occurred: I took them down day by day—I swear that again—I did not always place down the quantity of goods and the persons present, because I was not able to do it—I can swear who was present because I saw them there—I saw that the parties were all there and no one else, for the factory was locked up from the 14th to the 18th—I took down the dates, and not the persons and places and quantities, because I thought it was rather a rum time at night for a servant to shift goods—I thought I should be required to give persons and quantities as well as dates, if I should be called upon—I do not know whether I expected to be called upon—I could not put down the quantities that I took away—when I drove the van rather faster I did not gallop, I merely increased the speed of the horse's walking; it was rather too heavy a load for a horse to gallop, but I got him to as feet a speed as he could: he walked as fast as he could—Ventris had told me at that time to give the parties a good chase, and I put the horse as fast as I could get him to go—I know Woodford well, he was engaged in packing with me—when I packed and removed these things I did not know I was doing wrong—Poole told me that he would keep me on to look after his horse, and if I had not done it some other servant would have done it—I had an idea that it was wrong when I had to remove them in the night—I first commenced my doubts on the subject, on the Wednesday and Thursday when I had orders to remove them at midnight—I had not so much doubt before—Woodford was a carpenter in the same employment—he also assisted in the removal—he did not go to Mr. Dawson's with me—I know Mr. Dawson's office—I recollect going there—this "Thomas Beard,' on this paper, is my signature—I saw it at Mr. Dawson's office, when I signed it—this is my but it is a false statement—I have heard it read, and I know it is I never said anything about July—Mr. Dawson did not read over
this paper to me—what I told him, he appeared to be writing—he told me to sign the paper and I did sign it—I had no idea of its contents—I did not know why it was wanted—I did not know why I went there till he began to ax me about the things I had removed—I do not know Brampton Station—I do not know Mr. Ventris's daughter—I ought to know Mr. Poole, I have been with him two years—I have been an inspector of waggons on the railway since I left his employ—Mr. Dennis brought me here—I never applied to Mr. Poole for money on any occasion—I never said to Mr. Poole that if I did not have 20l. it would be the worse for him, nor did I have 20l.
JOHN WOODFORD . I am a carpenter, formerly in the employ of Poole and Bryan—on 18th August between 6 and 7 in the evening, I should say, I went to the factory at Northampton, and packed a quantity of boots and shoes of different descriptions—Beard went with me—Poole and Chapman came in while we were packing them—Chapman gave us some orders, after receiving which, we took the trunks we had packed to Kingsthorpe and put them in Chapman's coach-house there—there were either six or seven, I cannot exactly state the number—we afterwards returned to Northampton, and went to Poole's house—we saw Poole, who gave us some orders—I am not aware that we saw anybody else—I went to the factory between 9 and 10 next morning—I saw Poole, Chapman, and Ventris there, and Beard came in afterwards—we had orders from Poole and Chapman, in Ventris's presence, to go into the shoe room and assist in packing some trunks with boots and shoes—we did so—I should say we packed twenty trunks—we were engaged all day in packing them—Ventris was present all the time: he brought a quantity of shoes to pack a trunk, which he said were for himself—that was all he assisted in—after those goods were packed we received orders from Poole and Chapman, in Ventris's presence, to load them in the van and the light spring cart, and take them to Chapman's house, where we had taken the others the evening before—we took them to Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe, at midnight, and left them in the coach-house—after that we returned to Northampton—we saw both Poole and Ventris that night—Ventris gave me orders to be there early next morning, and take the cart and horse to Kingsthorpe, and take the trunk which we had left the evening before, and which was covered with canvas to Brampton Station, and send it to London, which I did—it was directed to Islington—I gave it to the station-master—I was at the factory all day on Saturday, 18th—we had orders to take some bales of leather to the warehouse—I cannot exactly say who gave us those orders, but Poole, Ventris, and Mr. Pearce were present—we weighed the butts, and took them to Pearce's warehouse, in Dychurch-lane, between 12 and 1 o'clock in the day—there were two loads of them—after we had taken them to Pearce's, the work people were paid, and after they were paid, we packed five or six more trunks with the goods which were brought in—that was between 6 and 7 in the evening—by we, I mean me and Beard; we were engaged the whole week—after the goods were packed, we had orders to take them to Pearce's warehouse, in Dy-church-lane—we loaded them in the van, and left the premises with the van at half-past 9 or 10 o'clock, I cannot state the time exactly, and as we were going across the market square, Ventris came to us and told us we were watched, and to give the parties a chase—Beard drove on with the van, and I remained behind and went back to Poole's house—I saw the goods there, and assisted in unloading them—we put them into the stable, at Poole's private residence—Poole and Ventris were there besides myself and Beard,
and I believe Captain Poole was there at the time—Ventris saw us unload the goods—on Sunday, 19th, we received orders from Poole, and Beard and I feat over to Chapman's, at Kingsthorpe—we got there, it may have been, at half-past 6 in the evening—we went to Chapman's house and saw him—we remained in his kitchen till 11 or 12 o'clock—while we were there we removed the whole of the goods which we had taken in the week, to a neighbour's barn—we commenced about midnight—after we had done that we returned to Northampton, and arrived there about half-past 2, on the morning of the 20th—we went to Poole-'s house, went in, and saw a man named Billingham asleep on the sofa—he gave us some orders, and we loaded the van with the goods which we had taken there on the Saturday evening before—alter the goods were loaded I saw Beard and Billingham drive out of the yard with them.
Cross-examined. Q. You know Beard well, do you not? A. Yes—I made a communication to Mr. Newton, subsequent to these events—I cannot say the date—I have never kept memorandums of dates—as near as I can recollect this must have been the latter end of September or the beginning of October—I cannot tell you that it was the 10th or the 18th as I do other dates, I did not take any notice of the date—I have seen Beard's book several times—I believe 15th August was the first time I ever saw it—he may have shown it to me—I saw it in his hand in Poole's office—I believe he told me that he should take a memorandum of the dates, but whether I saw him write one down, I cannot say—I do not know that I have had his book in my hand—I did not see the contents of it in Poole's office—he had not told me before I was in Poole's office that he had taken down dates in that book—he told me he should take a memorandum of the dates, that is the most that I know about the book—I told nobody but Mr. Newton anything in reference to my conduct in removing the bankrupts' goods—I made; no communication to anybody about the transaction—between August and September—I fancied that we were not doing right, but if we had not been employed other parties might have been—I do not say that I knew we were doing wrong, I only fancied so—allow me to explain—I was in Mr. Poole's employ—he said he did not wish to discharge me for another week—that he should require me for another week, and I remained in his service a week longer than any other man—I cannot say that I removed these goods fancying that it was wrong, because if I did not do it some one else would—I was born and bred in Northampton—I knew a man named Peck—I was. away a short time from Northampton—it is two years ago since I left—I never remained away from Northampton, because Peck brought a charge against me of stealing some clothes of his—I know there was a man named Peck, and he was a peck—he lost no clothes that I am aware of.
THOMAS DYKES . I am a boot and shoe-maker residing in Copenhagen-street, Islington—on Saturday, 13th October, in consequence of an advertisement I saw, I went to 46, Goswell-street—I left my address there—on the Monday following Ventris called on me and made an appointment to meet foe in the evening at 46, Goswell-street—I met him there—he took me. into the back room of the coffee-shop, unlocked the trunk, and showed me the contents, consisting of boots and shoes, leather, elastic webs, and ready closed uppers, there was half a dozen waxed calf skins, and a dozen basil, for lining—I selected a portion of the goods, fifteen pairs of the spring
side boots, half a dozen waxed calf skins, and the ready closed uppers—there were other things which I rejected—the value of the whole was about 16l.—the goods were stamped "P. and Co."—I made an offer which Ventris refused—on Saturday, 20th October, he called on me in the morning stating that he had a party who had offered 9l. for the goods I had looked out, and if I liked to give him 9l. I should have them—I said I should not advance my price, and I did not care whether I had them or not—I offered him 8l.—he said he could not let me have them—he went away and returned in about a quarter of an hour and said I should have them—I said "Very well, bring them in, and I will pay you for them"—I never saw him afterwards till I saw him at the police court.
Cross-examined. Q. Where you saw these goods was in the back room of a coffee-shop, was it? A. Yes—I don't know whether it is usual to buy goods of such a class in such a place, without inquiry—I went to the address given in the advertisement, and saw Ventris, and he told me he had taken the goods for a debt—I have frequently bought goods in a coffee-shop, not exactly through an advertisement—I don't suppose it is a usual thing to buy goods in that way, not in a back room—I have bought goods in a coffee house—I don't suppose that is usual—I have never stated that the boots were thrown in a heap on the floor—they were spread about the floor—they were in the trunk previous to his unlocking it—when I went into the room he went up to the trunk, drew it into the middle of the room, unlocked it, and emptied the contents on the floor—the mark on the boot, was, a large P. on the sole—there was no mark on the leather—it is such as is usually known in the trade—there is nothing particular about it—I did not count all the goods that were there; only those that I looked out—I will not swear there was not other leather besides that which came from the trunk—there were boots besides those I looked out—I keep a boot and shoe shop now—I did live at Northampton once—I knew Mr. Collier, at Northampton, well—nothing unpleasant ever took place between I and he—there were no clothes in the trunk—I saw no wearing apparel at all—I should say the value of the whole lot of goods was about 16l.
FREDERICK SHARMAN . I was engaged by Messrs. Quilter, Ball, and Jay, in the affairs of Poole and Bryan, to take the stock—Ventris lived in Paul-street, New North-road, Islington—I don't exactly remember the number, but I think it was No. 4—I had the keys of the warehouse at Northampton—I gave them to Ventris on Wednesday morning, 22d August.
Cross-examined. Q. You say you know that Ventris resides in Paul-street? A. Yes—I am not aware that there are connexions of his residing in the same street—I never heard so, not a cousin—I don't know whether it is so or not—when I took possession of the things at Northampton Ventris gave me every assistance—I saw nothing contrary to the behaviour of an honourable man, who was properly fulfilling his duty, while I was there—he did not give me any papers—I did not require books or papers—I had nothing to do, except it was taking the stock—he gave me answers to questions I put to him, straightforward and fairly—I required no assistance from him—he certainly gave me no obstruction.
MESSRS. HOLL and HARRISON conducted the Prosecution.
the defendant to be sworn, and examined him—I heard him sworn before Mr. Commissioner Evans—I wrote down his examination, and read it over to him carefully—he signed each sheet.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Who was he sworn by? A. By the proper officer of the Court, before Mr. Commissioner Evans—(The examination of Billingham being here put in and read, stated that he was not at the house of the bankrupt (Poole) on the night of 19th August, that he did not accompany Beard to Hartwell on the morning of 20th August, that he slept at Hartwell on that or some other Sunday night, and returned to Northampton in Beard's even, but did not know of the removal of any boxes from Beard's van to Jeffs' cart.)
THOMAS BEARD . I was a carman in the employ of Poole and Bryan—on the evening of 18th August I received directions from Poole, in consequence of which we loaded a lot of trunks with boots of different kinds, the work that was taken in that day, and a lot of solving leather—Woodford and I did it, and Poole helped us—we packed from six to seven trunks—we also packed some roan leather, some laces, and some leather, in bags—the roan leather is red leather which is used to make boots with—it was in whole skins, rolled up—Poole then gave us orders to take them to Mr. Pea roe's warehouse—we loaded and started with the goods between 10 and 11 o'clock at night—Woodford was with me—on the road, Ventris came to us, and told us something—after that, I went as fast as I could get my horse to go at a walking pace—I took the goods to Mr. Poole's house, and put them the stable there—Woodford assisted me—we left them there that night—on the following day, Sunday, the 19th, Woodford and I went to Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe—we returned from Kingsthorpe to Northampton on the Monday-morning, a little after 2 o'clock—we went to Poole's house, and found the side gate left undone for us, and the back door also—we went in, and found Billingham there—he told us that he was going to take the goods in the stable, into his care—he told me that all he wanted me to do was to drive, as he could not drive himself—we loaded the goods in the stable into the van—those were the goods I had left there on the Saturday night, the 18th—Woodford and Billingham assisted me—Billingham then told us he wanted to go to Hartwell—we took the goods there—that is six or seven miles from Northampton, the way he directed me to drive—Billingham went with me, not Woodford—we went to the house of Jeffs, the carrier, at Hartwell, and saw him there—we unloaded the van into Jeffs' cart, took out the trunks, and put them into his cart—Jeffs, Billingham, and I did that—we then started for Northampton—I started first with my van, and Billingham with me, and the carrier started afterwards—I saw Jeffs' cart start from Hartwell—I next saw the cart at Northampton, standing in the Red Lion-yard—I cannot say whether the goods were then in it—I saw them in it when I started from Hartwell—I saw some of those goods afterwards—I accompanied Mr. Shepcutt, the messenger, to Billingham's house, when some goods were seized there—I saw about six boxes in the bedroom at his house—I think this was about 29th October—they were similar boxes to those which had been removed from Poole's warehouse on the night of the 18th, and which were afterwards taken to Hartwell—I also saw some Wellington tops, some spring side tops, and some soleing leather found at Billingham's house—that was all buried among a lot of flock in a garret belonging to his house, and we found a piece of leather, marked "P. and Co.," which was handed to the messenger—Mr. Shepcutt shewed me some red skins that day, similar to the skins which we had packed on the night of 18th August, and which went to Poole's house.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. How many times have you told this tale that you have been telling us now? A. I think this is about the second time that I have told about finding the leather at Billingham's house—the first time I told it was in the court-house—I do not think I told about it before—I have told about going to Hartwell many times—I stick to it as being perfectly true—I put down the date of the day I went to Hartwell—I put down "Hartwell "in my book, and "20th "opposite it—I put down "Hartwell" from the carrier's cart a few days afterwards, when I saw the cart at Northampton—I put "20th "the same day, when I returned from Hartwell—I did not put down "Hartwell" then, because it was not in my power to do so: I am no speller, I could not put it down till I saw it on the man's cart—I copied it from the cart—I saw it standing in the market-place, where he stops when he comes to market—I went up to the cart then and looked at it—I knew it again—I had got my memorandum book with me then—I copied it in the open street—I put it down first in pencil and then copied it in ink—I put the ink on at my own house—I had never been at Hartwell before—I had never seen Jeffs before—I knew Billingham—I lived in the same street with him—I never had any dealings with him for furniture, and never wanted to have any—I never asked him for furniture! and he refused me—he never told me he would not let me have furniture, unless Poole would guarantee the payment of the money; I swear that—I remember going to Mr. Dawson's office—I signed a document there—I did not know for what purpose—I have heard it read many times since—whatever was in that document, I never said a word to that effect—I did sign it, but if I could have read the writing I should not have signed it.
MR. HOLL. Q. Did you tell Mr. Dawson that you had taken some goods to Kingsthorpe? A. I did, in August; but I never told him anything about July.
JOHN WOODFORD . I was in the employ of Poole and Bryan—I went to the factory on 18th August last—we were there all day—we left for about an hour in the evening, to get some refreshment—in consequence of orders we received we packed the goods that the work-people brought in in the afternoon, besides other goods that were in the warehouse—there was a quantity of roan skins, I believe, and several bags of kip offal—I and Bed loaded the goods into the van, and had orders to take them to Mr. Pearce's—that might have been about 10 o'clock, or a little sooner or later—we started with them, and as we were going across the market-square, Ventri's came to us—he spoke to us, and after that Beard drove on the van, and I remained behind—I afterwards went to Mr. Poole's house, and there saw the same goods that, had been packed in the van at the warehouse—they were put in the stable—we went to Kingsthorpe on the night of the 19th—on our return we went to Mr. Poole's—that must have been about 2 or half-past on Monday morning—I saw Billingham there—Beard was with me—Billingham said that he was going to take either charge or care of the goods, I could not say which of the two words it was, and that he was going to take them to Hartwell, and afterwards he was to send them back to his house at Northampton—we loaded the van with the goods, and Beard and Billingham drove out of Poole's yard with the van—that was all I saw of the van.
Cross-examined. Q. You had been engaged in removing these goods for some time from Poole's premises? A. Yes; I and Beard together—what he I did I helped him in—we were employed to do it—I did not know that I was doing wrong—I fancied it was not altogether right, from something I
heard, but I had no authority—I left Northampton because I lost a deal of time at the time I was apprenticed, and Mr. Barwell, my master, had got summons out against me—I left on that account.
JAMES JEFFS . In August last I was a carrier from Northampton to Hartwell I remember Beard and Billingham coming to my house early one Monday morning from 5 to 6 o'clock—it was some time in August, I believe they bad a van with them and some trunks in it—those trunks were removed from the van and put into the cart—I helped to remove them into, he cart, and Beard also—Billingham was there—after they were pot into he cart, I took them to Northampton—they both of them told me to take hem there—I believe Billingham himself spoke to me about it—I left them n the Red Lion-yard, under the gateway in my cart—when I went back to the cart, the goods were not there—I am not certain whether that is quite opposite Billingham's house or not, it is nearly opposite—Billingham paid for taking the goods from Hartwell to Northampton—I never saw the goods again.
COURT. Q. Did he pay you before you started, or afterwards? A, At Northampton, somewhere in the street, the horse market.
MR. HOLL. Q. Was Monday your regular day for going from Hartwell Northampton? A. No; Wednesday and Saturday were my regular days.
Cross-examined. Q. You convey a great number of goods to and from Northampton, do you not? A. I did at that time, boots and shoes—I have a carrier there twelve months—I was not regularly engaged by shoe-makers to carry goods, only to and from Northampton—I do not know when was first asked anything about this—I told Mr. Dennis that I could not recollect about it till I had time to consider—I did not Bee Beard during the time I was considering, only when I was with Mr. Dennis—Mr. Dennis to me at the cart, and Beard was with him—Beard did not stop and talk with me, he went away with Mr. Dennis—I did not see Beard anywhere afterwards—I had orders both from Beard and Billingham to take these things in my cart to Northampton—I can't swear that Billingham alone gave me orders—I had not been carrying goods for him about that time—I have sometimes taken a few goods for him, and been paid for it—mine is a ready money transaction—Billingham was the first person I saw on the morning of the 20th, I am sure of that.
COURT. Q. You gay that Billingham paid you for these goods; are you quite sure it was this particular time he paid you, or may not your memory deceive you as to some other time? A. It was at that time—I feel no doubt that it was on the Monday in question that he paid me—I am quite sure of it.
JOHN SHEPCUTT . On 20th October, I went to Billingham's house and seized four dozen roan skins, between the bed and the mattress of an old lady who was bed-ridden—the bed was in the parlour—the first lot I pulled out was covered at the edges with a piece of new ticking, the remainder was covered with a counterpane—before I seized them I told Billingham that I had got a search warrant, and had come to search his house, and asked if he had any leather—he said, "Don't talk to me about leather, talk to me about furniture and I can answer you"—that was all said—he was present when I seized the skins, and held the old lady's feet—I also seized some kip offal in the top room of the house, covered with flock, and among it a piece of leather marked "P. & Co."—I was present when it was found—I also seized some trunks in the first floor of the house, which I showed to Beard before I took them away, and some American offal which I showed to Mr. Bryan, and Butcher, and Mr. Newton.
Cross-examined. Q. Did Billingham tell you he had bought some of the things from Poole? A. He said he bought the things, he did not say from Poole—the top room is a sort of lumber room—there were all sorts of things there—there was not the least opposition to the search.
GEORGE FREEMAN NEWTON . On the evening of 18th August, I watched the bankrupts' warehouse—about 10 o'clock I saw a load of goods come out—I followed it—I saw Ventris speak to the driver, who then quickened his pace, and I lost sight of them—I saw some goods on the bankrupts' premises after they were taken from Billingham's house—they were pieces of offal leather, and pieces taken from butt leather, and some roan or pink skins—I am a currier and supplied goods very largely to Poole and Bryan—I identified the offal and butt pieces, but more particularly the offal, as property that left my place and went to the bankrupts 'about 29th or 30th July—I had some of it left in my own place—it was American red offal, very easy to be distinguished—I am quite satisfied it was part of the same leather.
Cross-examined. Q. This is the first time you have ventured to speak to the identity of this red offal, is it not? A. It is the first time I have been asked about it in public—other persons in Northampton may sometimes sell it.
OLD COURT.—Monday, January 14th, 1861.
PRESENT—MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN; Mr. Ald. CONDER; and Mr. Ald. JAMES LAWRENCE.
Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.
The proceedings in bankruptcy were produced, as in the former cases, and also tine examination of Thomas Chapman, taken on 23d August, 1860, before Mr. Commissioner Holford.
GEORGE BLINK . I attended the Bankruptcy Court when the prisoner was examined before Mr. Commissioner Holford; he was sworn on 8th November—I took his examination and read it over to him—he signed each sheet—it was all taken on one day. (The examination being read, stated that he was not a party to the removal or concealment of any of the goods belonging to the bankrupt Poole, but that before the bankruptcy Thomas Beard brought some trunks of goods to him with a note, asking him to receive them, he being is bed with a smashed leg at the time; that a few days afterwards he opened them and finding the contents to be mouldy, he had them removed to Weston's house, where they were afterwards seized; that he afterwards pointed out a sack or hamper at his house to Cooke, telling him that was all that remained of the goods and that Cooke told him to sell them as soon as he could get 7s. 6d. a pair for the boots, and that he had had nothing to do with the removal of any other goods belonging to the bankrupts.)
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Where was this examination conducted, in the Court of Bankruptcy or in one of the private rooms? A. In one of the private rooms of the Court of Bankruptcy, where private examinations are usually conducted—Mr. Commissioner Holroyd was not present during the time the examination was taken, but he was in the
building—he was not present at any part of it, to my recollection—Mr. Bagley, the barrister, conducted the examination, and in the ordinary form of question and answer—I should add that the conclusion of the examination was conducted by Mr. Dennis, the solicitor, Mr. Bagley being engaged—I acted as amanuensis—the papers produced are the papers upon which I wrote it down—I think you will find some of it is in the narrative form, and some in question and answer.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was he sworn before Mr. Commissioner Holroyd? A. He was—the form usually adopted is that persons shall be sworn in the public court and then the examination takes place in the private room—he accompanied me up stain—the examination was read over to the bankrupt by me—that is not done in the presence of the Commissioner—he signed it and I took him down before the Commissioner, and he acknowledged it in the usual way—that is the way in which matters are always conducted in the Bankruptcy Court.
THOMAS BEARD . I was in the bankrupts' service as carman—on 13th August I received directions from Poole, but not in Chapman's presence—I know Stone, he is an agent for Poole, he takes work out and brings work in—I fetched a large hamper of goods from Stone's, on 13th August, by Mr. Poole's directions—Woodford was present, but nobody else—I took it to Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe—Chapman lived at Kingsthorpe then—Woodford was not with me—Chapman had it put in the coach-house, he desired me to assist him in putting it there—I have not seen that hamper since—on 15th August I received the keys of the shoe factory, at Northampton, from Poole, and Chapman then gave me orders to go to the factory and pack a lot of trunks, as many as I thought would fill the van—I am not usually the packer—I packed from six to seven trunks with boots and shoes of different kinds, and Chapman directed Woodford and me to take them to his house; when we got them there we put them into the coach-house, in the same place as we had put the hamper—on the 16th we received directions from Poole, in the presence of Chapman and Ventris, to go into the shoe-room and assist him in packing a lot more trunks—we packed, as near as I can say, about twenty—Poole then ordered us, in Chapman's presence, to load them in the spring-cart and in the van—I drove the van, Woodford drove the cart, and we took them to Chapman's house, at Kingsthorpe, and put them in the coach-house where we had put the others—it was about 10 o'clock when we started from the factory on the 15th, and 12 o'clock on the 16th—on Sunday night, the 19th, we had orders from Poole to go to Chapman's house, we went there and Chapman took us into his kitchen and kept us there till 11 o'clock at night—he told us he had taken a barn of one of his neighbours, to put a horse in, and that he wanted us to shift the goods out of the coach-house into the barn—all the goods were in the boxes and the hamper—Woodford carried them to me at the wall, and I carried them from the wall into the barn—Chapman's little boy, fifteen or sixteen years old, I cannot say exactly, walked before me to guide me and direct me to the place—when we had done that, Chapman gave us orders to go to Poole's house, and we did so.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did you know anything of Mr. Chapman before this matter? A. No—I have been in the bankrupts' service about two years—Chapman was at Poole's house before I had any orders about the removal of this property—he was not present on 13th but on 15th and 16th he was—I had seen him before the 15th, but never in conlegion with this matter—that was the first time I had anything to do with
the matter—I never threatened to do for Chapman if I did not receive 20l. or for Mr. Poole, my master—I never did so in the presence of a person named Tate or Limes—I never threatened, making use of an offensive term that if I did not get 201l. I would do for the man with the smashed leg—I know he was able to hop about and buy goods for me to pack, if he had a smashed leg—before I went to Mr. Poole's, I was working at the General Steam Navigation, as a hammer-man, down at the Commercial Docks—I was there, I should say, seven years—I left them to go into Mr. Poole's employment in London, and then he took me down to Northampton—that was not at a strange change of employment; the reason I took the situation was, that Poole promised me the same wages as I received, and the air agreed with my constitution much better than working in a hot shop; but when he got me down to Northampton he dropped me down three shillings: that does not at all account for my feeling in this matter.
JOHN WOODFORD . I was in the employment of the bankrupts—on 15th August I received orders and packed six or seven trunks with boots and shoes of different descriptions—Beard assisted me—I received orders from Chapman to take them to his house at Kingsthorpe—I took them there, but a long way round, very nearly two miles out of the road I should say—I went that round-about way by Chapman's direction—I left the ware-house at Northampton, with the goods, between 9 and 10 in the evening, I think—I left them in Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe—on 16th August we packed, I should say, twenty trunks at the least, with boots and shoes of different descriptions, by the orders of Poole and Chapman—it took us most part of the day to pack them—Poole and Chapman both assisted, and Ventris assisted in packing goods into one trunk—Beard was there as well—after we had packed those twenty trucks I received orders, both from Poole and Chapman, to take them to Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe—we left the factory with them about midnight, in a van, with a light spring-cart, and left them in Chapman's coach-house—one of those trunks was directed to Ventris—Ventris had given me orders about that trunk the evening before, in consequence of which I went to Chapman's, with the horse and trap, on Friday morning, 17th August—I saw Chapman—he gave me the trunk that was directed, and I took it to Brampton-station with the horse and trap—Chapman went with me—I left it in the station-master's charge—on the evening of 19th August, about 6 o'clock, I went with Beard to Chapman's house at Kingsthorpe—we saw Chapman—we remained in the kitchen till very near midnight, I believe, when Chapman came in and said that he wanted us to remove the goods which we had taken in the week time, to a neighbour's barn, which he had hired to put a horse in—we removed all the goods from the coach-house, that we had taken on 15th and 16th, to the next door neighbour's barn—I did not, at that time, know who it belonged to.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You had known Mr. Chapman previously, had you not known him as Mr. Cooke's agent? A. No—I did not know that he was the agent of any one—Beard was with me, when Chapman directed me to go the round-about way, and Poole also—we had a slight notion that the thing was not altogether right—I cannot exactly recollect how soon I gave information to any of the persons connected with the bankruptcy; I believe it was in the latter end of September or the beginning of October—I had not previously to that threatened that if I did not get well paid I would peach on Mr. Poole, I never made use of any such term to anyone; I never thought of such a thing, nor even suggested that I should be paid or else I would give evidence against Mr. Poole—I
never saw Mr. Cooke in my life till I saw him in Guildhall Court—Mr. Jameson is the book-keeper—I have not seen him here to-day.
JOHN SHEPCUTT . I am an assistant to the messenger in bankruptcy—I seized twenty-six trunks at Kingsthorpe on 29th August, containing manufactured and unmanufactured articles, also a hamper containing boots and shoes and one hundred skins wrapped in canvas—I took them to the bankrupts' ware-house in Northampton—I then opened the boxes and the hamper and showed the contents to Fossey, a person employed there, and to a person named Stone—I also showed the contents of the trunks, one of which contained a letter-bag filled with envelopes and cards with the name of Poole and Co. on them, and this peg-iron (produced)—I showed them to Fossey, Stone, Mr. Newton, and Mr. Dennis—this is the letter-bag, it has on it the name of Poole and Co. Northampton—I showed some of the boots and shoes in the trunks to Fossey.
Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Did Chapman say anything to you at any time about Cooke being the owner of the goods? A. He might have, but I did not attend—he served me with a notice—he claimed some skins which were seized in Bull Head-lane—Mr. Dawson was present at another seizure at the Wool-pack in Brook-street, Northampton—Mr. Dawson in my presence advised Poole to desist.
MR. SLEIGH to THOMAS BEARD. Q. Did you know Mr. Cooke? A. I did not, till I went down to him—I never saw Mr. Cooke of Walsall in conversation with Mr. Poole in July: I have never said that I did—I have signed a paper, but not containing that statement—I signed a paper containing statements which are not true—I was never present when Mr. Cooke of Walsall purchased goods from Mr. Poole: I have never stated that I was, neither by word of mouth or writing—I cannot read writing, not a scholar's writing—I kept a book, but I can prove that I am no scholar by my employer.
MR. HOLL. Q. By whom were you asked to sign that paper? A. Mr. Dawson asked me to sign it—it was not read over to me before I signed it—I can read my own writing, but I cannot read a scholar's writing, because I am no scholar—I can read my own writing only.
The prisoners Poole, Ventris, Chapman, and Billingham, were then called up
MR. SLEIGH (for Chapman, in arrest of Judgment), I submit that the indictment is bad, inasmuch as it does not allege that Chapman or Ventris knew that Poole was adjudged a bankrupt, so that if indicted by themselves for removing, concealing, or embezzling property, the indictment would disclose, no offence in law unless it went on to allege that property to be the property of a bankrupt. The point arose incidentally in Reg. v. Marks, Sessions Paper, Vol. XLVII. p. 42. The indictment is also bad on another ground, viz. that it charges three offences in one Count—removing, embezzling, and concealing; it was so in Marks' case, and objection was then taken, I submit that each of those is a separate offence, and ought to be alleged in separate Counts, unless it can be contended they are ejusdem generic.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. I do not see anything in your second point, and as to the first, unless I thought the indictment clearly bad, I should not arrest the judgment. You can bring a writ of error.
MR. SLEIGH. Then with respect to the other matters which we have asked to be reserved, I submit that there was no evidence to go to the Jury of any ad done by Chapman within the jurisdiction of this Court, except that relating to the trunk sent to Ventris in London, and that any such act of his ceased and determined upon the arrival of the trunk in London.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. No; I thought at first, and am inclined now to think still more decidedly, that there was evidence that Chapman caused the trunk to be taken into the jurisdiction of this Court, and there caused it to be concealed, for the purpose of concealment after the adjudication. I told the Jury that concealment before adjudication would not do, but that if they thought the parties before adjudication, and in contemplation of it, took steps and employed agents for the purpose of concealment afterwards, and that in furtherance of that intention the goods were afterwards so concealed, that would do; and there is a ruling of Mr. Justice Littledale's to that effect in Reg. v. Evanie in Moody and Ryan.
MR. ORRIDGE (with MR. SLEIGH). With reference to the including of the three offences in one Count, I would refer to 269 th section of the Bankrupt Ad, which provides a penalty for the offence of removing or concealing on the part of persons not themselves bankrupts.' Under this section, unless a man is a bankrupt, he cannot be indicted as a principal. Chapman, therefore, was new capable of committing the original offence, because he never was a bankrupt.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. It may be that you may be right as to that, still I do not think it so clear that I ought to arrest the judgment upon it.
MR. METCALFE. As to Ventris, I think I am right in saying he could not be convicted unless the evidence against Poole as principal was conclusive, and the only evidence as to Poole was, that he was present when the things wert seat away from his warehouse at Northampton before the adjudication, and your lordship seemed at one time to entertain a doubt whether that sufficiently brought him within this jurisdiction.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. I have considered' the matter and am strongly of opinion that there was evidence for the Jury, that Poole being at Northampton was in expectation of imminent bankruptcy, and that there would speedily be an adjudication; that that being so, he removed a large quantity of his goods to Chapman's, and that Chapman afterwards and after adjudication was actively concerned in endeavouring to conceal those goods; that Chapman in Poole's presence directed his servant to take one of the trunks to the railway station to be sent to London, that it was sent to London and there concealed until after the adjudication, and upon that I think there was evident for the Jury that Poole sent that trunk to London with the intention that it should be concealed from his assignees.
MR. METCALFE. Does your lordship think that if Poole, out of the jurisdiction, directed an act to be done within it, it would make him responsible not only for what he did out of the jurisdiction, but for what was done within it?
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. I think so.
MR. METCALFE. If that had been before the act relating to accessaries, and if Ventris had committed an offence as a principal within the jurisdiction, I should not have urged the point, because Poole would then have been guilty as an accessary before the fact; but here Ventris is being indicated as an accessary and Poole as a principal.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. "Accessory "is perhaps an inaccurate expression. Ventrij is actually the hand that does the act in concert with the man as to whom it is a statutable felony; he is what used to be called a principal in the second degree.
MR. METCALFE. I submit that there is no such thing in this offence, which is a statutable offence; they have always been treated as accessaries. Ventris, when he concealed those goods after the bankruptcy, was accessary to the offence committed by the bankrupt; the bankrupt was committing an offence possibly out of this jurisdiction and Ventris within it as an accessary, and the principal cannot follow the accessary. I also rely upon the objection already urged that there is no averment in the indictment that Ventris knew an act of bankruptcy had been committed.
MR. POLAND (for Poole). There is no evidence to show any concealment by Poole after bankruptcy, the evidence would rather tend to show that he was an accessary before the fact to the concealment by Ventris as a principal; the offence, if any, committed by Poole, was that of a non-discovery, for until his last examination he had a locus penitentice, if he had then disclosed where the trunk in question was deposited, he would not have been guilty of concealing, and the mere omission to make such a disclosure could not render him amenable to the charge of concealing, which in its very nature implies some act done.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. Must not the statute have contemplated goods got out of the way with the intention of concealing and embezzling them afterwards?
MR. POLAND. I think not; the section provides for every conceivable offence, and if a man after bankruptcy is engaged in actively secreting goods, that is one offence, if he keeps silence about it, that is another offence, namely, that of nondiscovery. I also contend that the indictment should have alleged a knowledge on Poole's part that he had been adjudged a bankrupt.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN (to MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE). I will hear you on the point of jurisdiction. I take it that the act done by Ventris within the jurisdiction would be quite sufficient as against Poole, if Poole was an accessary before the fact to the felony committed by "Ventris, but the point as it comes to my mind in the result is this: as the statutable offence exists in the bankrupt, and in the bankrupt only, and the others are only indictable as accessaries, can the bankrupt or Chapman be accessaries before the fact to a felony committed by the hand of a person out of the jurisdiction. I do not know that there is anything in the point, but I will hear you upon it.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. The question is, whether the parties engaged originally in the transaction are not in reality principals in the act of concealment, and it was with regard to that view that I tendered evidence of the entries in the books, which would show an active concealment after the bankruptcy, and that act is brought within this jurisdiction by the delivery of the books by Ventris to Ball in London.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. you urged that before, and I think the answer I then, gave decisive; viz. that the goods had been already seized and the dealing with the books would have reference rather to an endeavour to get back the goods then in the possession of the messenger.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Then I must meet so technical a point in a technical manner, supposing the effect of the alteration of the books to be intended mainly for the purpose of so getting back the goods, yet if it also had the effect of creating or continuing a concealment of the goods that had been removed, that would bring the matter within the purview of this indictment.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. I am not clear about that, but if such a subtle answer as that is necessary, it certainly would be a point to reserve. The point I wish to draw your attention to is this, can Poole and Chapman down at Northampton be treated as accessaries before the fact to the concealment in Middlesex, when in fact Ventris who did the act is only brought in as a sort of principal in the second degree to Poole; if for any reason Poole is not guilty, must not the other two be not guilty also?
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. I think that must be conceded, but my proportion is that at the very moment of the adjudication, supposing the Jury to find as they have done, that the criminal intention continued, all the parties, wherever they were, were guilty, jointly, of concealing the property in any county jurisdiction where that property was existing.
Upon the indictments for Perjury, several objections were taken as to the materiality of certain averments, and the omission of others, in the course of which were cited Reg. v. Bartholomew, 1 Car. & Kir. 366; Reg. v. Cutts 4 Coz, Criminal Cases; Reg. v. Good fellow, Car. & Marshman, 569; and Reg. v. Hewins, 9 Car & Payne, 786, and 2 Russell, 640.
MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. As I have already said, my impression is that the conviction stands good as it is, but I will consult privately some of the other Judges, and if, after that, there seems to be enough of doubt upon any of the points mooted, or upon other points, there will be time enough to reserve them.
Sentence was then passed as follows:—
POOLE— Six Years' Penal Servitude upon the first indictment, and a concurent sentence of Six Years upon the indictment for Perjury.
CHAPMAN and VENTRIS— Four Year's Penal Servitude upon each indictment, (also concurrent. )
BILLINGHAM— Confined Eighteen Months.
Before Mr. Recorder.
PLEADED GUILTY .**— Three Years' Penal Servitude.
Before Mr. Recorder.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
SMITH PLEADED GUILTY .**— Confined Eighteen Months.
BIRD PLEADED GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.
JOHN NEWELL (Police-sergeant, R 59). On 20th December I was on duty at Woolwich—between 5 and 6 o'clock I saw the three prisoners in Beresford-square talking together—they crossed the road and went to the prosecutor's shop—I saw Bird and Jackson close to the door where the handkerchiefs were hanging, and Smith on the opposite side—I saw Bird pulling at the handkerchiefs, but he did not succeed in getting them down—shortly after they all went away—I lost sight of them for nearly half an hour—I afterwards returned, and, saw Bird and Jackson at the shop window again—I watched them for a short time, and after that they both left—I followed them some distance and took them into custody—I told them I should charge them with stealing handkerchiefs from a shop—they said they knew nothing about them—I afterwards went into High-street and saw
Smith coming out of a lodging-house; I took him into custody, and said, "Where are the handkerchiefs that those boys gave you?"—he said, "I have had no handkerchiefs, and have not seen any"—I took him to the station, and then went to the lodging-house I had seen him come from—I went up to the room where he slept, and in the cupboard there found these handkerchiefs—I showed them to Smith, and he said, "You must find out now who put them there."
ANN COLBY . I live with my uncle, John Colby, a linendraper, at Woolwich—these handkerchiefs are my uncle's property; they are worth about 8s.—I had seen them safe about a quarter of an hour before Newell brought them to me.
JACKSON GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
156. EDWIN BUTLER (29), a marine, and JAMES SMITH (30), an artilleryman , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of our Lady the Queen, on 4th December, and stealing therein 1 pair of pistols, 1 clock, and other goods, value 15l., the property of Anthony Blasland Strancham. Other Counts, for receiving the same.
BUTLER PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.
ANTHONY BLASLAND STRANCHAM , I am a colonel in the Royal Marines, at Woolwich—on 4th Dec. I was in residence at the Royal Marine Barracks, Woolwich—I went to bed that night about half past 12 o'clock—the house was all safe, and closed in the usual way, but, I apprehend, the bolt of the window was not properly shut, owing to some rust—that was a French window in the dining-room—about half-past 1 o'clock I was disturbed by hearing a noise below—I immediately rose, and, procuring a light, I proceeded below to examine the house—I passed through the large dining-room into a small dining-room, and there found the place in confusion—the window was open—I closed it immediately, and went up stairs—there were no marks, of violence on the window—I have not the slightest doubt that it was shut when I went to bed, and fastened by the usual hasp handle; but the bolt above I do not think was fastened—I saw no one—at the first examination of the room I did not miss anything particular—afterwards I missed the dining-room clock, a tea-caddy, a pair of pistols from another room, and various small articles—I subsequently examined a chair which was lying down, and on it I found the print of a man's feet—I knew immediately from the peculiar pattern that those prints could only belong to the regimental boots of my corps—I did not find any footsteps outside—there were marks of blood on the railing by which the man, whoever he was, must have entered, and also on the drugget covering the carpet, and on the white holland blind—there was no glass broken—I have since seen, in the custody of the police, one pistol that I missed, and also the clock, tea-caddy, and certain small articles, and a portion of a gilt flower vase—they were all safe when I went to bed the night before—the house is not the public barrack; it is my official residence, it belongs to the nation—it is separated from the barracks, but is within the barrack boundary—it is in the parish of St. Mary, Woolwich—I know the prisoner Butler—I had not known Smith till I saw him before the Magistrate—I had seen Butler before, officially.
JOHN HOWARD . I am a sergeant in the Royal Marines, stationed at Woolwich—I heard of this housebreaking between 3 and 4 o'clock on the morning of 5th Dec.—I went with a policeman, named Price, into High-street, opposite the Crown and Anchor public-house—I saw the prisoners and two others—I asked Butler if he had a pass—he said he had—I saw a
pen in his hand of a very peculiar kind, one that is used in general by the last witness—I had never seen a pen of that description before—the policeman questioned him as to where he had been all night, and while doing so Butler ran away a few yards—I ran after him, and caught him by the collar—I saw him throw the pen away out of his hand—two of the fingers on his right hand were bleeding—I and the policeman then conveyed him to the police-station—we took off his boots, and took them to the colonel's residence—I saw them compared with a footmark on a chair belonging to Colonel Strancham—in my judgment, the mark was made by the boot—I believe the police apprehended Smith afterwards—we did not take him then—the others did not stand still while the policeman and I were questioning Butler—Smith and the civilian walked away round the corner.
DANIEL RICKARDS . I am a sergeant of the Royal Horse Artillery, at Woolwich—I was in charge of the north arch grounds on 4th December—I know Smith—he was absent from the barracks that night—he came in about a quarter before 6 on the morning of the 5th—I had received his name the night before, as being absent—I made him a prisoner for absence without leave—during the time I had him in the guard-room he said, "Me and a marine has broken into the commandant's house, and stole several things from the president, and I did not intend coming in any more, only the marine was apprehended the morning, and I made my escape and came in; we were going to London to get rid of the things"—he stated that he had a pistol in his possession, and a lump of gold also, as he called it; but apparently it was this brass chain, that he had—he gave this chain to me in the guard-room; it is only a portion of the chain—he told me that he threw the pistol away—I gave information to the police.
Smith. Q. Did not I say that I had received the things from a marine in the street? A. You distinctly stated that you and a marine had broken into the house—a gunner was present when this conversation took place—he went before the Magistrate, but his evidence was not thought necessary.
JOHN PRICE . I was on duty at Woolwich on the morning of 5th December—I heard of the burglary at the commandant's—I went with Sergeant Howard to the commandant's house, and from there to High-street, where I saw Butler in company with Smith, a civilian, and a military private—that which Howard has stated is correct—that was what passed—I had seen the prisoners together at half-past 12 that night, in the High-street—I saw them go into a coffee-house—afterwards, when I saw them, I said, "Where have you been since I saw you last night?"—Butler made no reply, but immediately turned round and tried to make his escape—I took him into custody, and took him to the station—Smith made his escape then, and I did not find him till the 12th—I took the boot from Butler's foot, and took it to Colonel Strancham's house—in my judgment that boot made the mark; there was the regimental pattern, and where the nails are worn out in the boot, there were the marks missing on the chair—in my judgment it was a mark made by that particular regimental boot—I found the time-piece at the back of the house, 75, High-street, concealed—I did not find anything upon either prisoner—Butler had marks of blood on his fingers, and there were also marks of blood on the time-piece—I asked him what he had to say about the charge—he said he had the pistol from the marine, but he threw it away in Wellington-street—there was the same print outside the window, as on the chair—there appeared to be the prints of two personal—one footmark was shorter than the other—the short one appeared to have walked all round the house—I feel satisfied there were the footmarks of two persons.
COURT. Q. Did you take him to the guard-room? A. Yes—the sergeant of marines picked him out—I was there at the time.
SMITH GUILTY of receiving.— Confined Eighteen Months.
MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.
HENRY WRIGHT . I live at Notting-hill, and am a sawyer, on 12th December I was betwixt Lea and Eltham between 11 and 12 o'clock, out for a walk—before I got to the fields I saw some smoke arising—I went to see, and I saw it was a haystack on fire—I got a pail of water out of the ditch and threw it over the stack; and the sluicing of the water brought down a piece of paper out of the stack, I picked it up and threw it down again—it was partly burned—a few minutes afterwards a person named Colvill came, he picked up the paper again, opened it, read it, and found it was a soldier's pass—the value of the stack was 225l.—I did not see the prisoner there then, but I was on the top of the stack, about a quarter of an hour afterwards, when he was given in custody.
JESSE COLVILL . I live at 17, Church-street, Lea, and am a lawyer—I was taking a walk on this Sunday morning, in a field called the Harrow Meadow with a few more companions—we saw some smoke arising among three or four haystacks—we directly ran down towards them—there were three or four men there with a pail trying to put the fire out—the fire was just commencing, if we had had two or three more pails we could have put it out—one of my companions was poking a piece of paper with his stick—I picked it up and found it was a soldier's pass—I kept it and afterwards gave it to the constable—this is it (produced)—it was folded in this way—we looked about for a soldier, but did not see one till twenty minutes afterwards, when I saw the prisoner looking through a hedge—I went up to where he was, looked at him, he looked at me, and we went to the gate, but never passed a word, and then he turned to go back again—I went to one of my companions—a policeman came and my mate told him to go and ask him his name; he asked him if he had a pass, and the prisoner said, "No."
Prisoner. Q. How do you know that is a soldier's pass? A. Well, I have had one or two in my hands, and it signifies that it is a soldier's pass in reading it—you did not take the least notice in the world of the fire.
WILLIAM CLIFF . I am a labourer, of 3, Church-street, Lea—I was with Colvill on Sunday morning, 16th December, and saw smoke arising from some haystacks—I went to the corner where it seemed to have begun, and a piece of paper was pointed out by a young man standing there—I raked it from the corner with a stick and Colvill picked it up and opened it—this is it—about twenty minutes afterwards I saw the prisoner coming up the road—I said nothing to him—I spoke to a constable and he was taken in custody.
EDWIN BEX (Policeman, R 82). On Sunday morning, 16th December, I received information, went to Mr. Wallace's farm and found a stack on fire—Cliff came up to me first, and Colvill afterwards—I received this piece of paper from Colvill, who asked me to go and ask the soldier his name—I saw the prisoner close by the fire—I asked him his name—he said, "Robert Mann"—I asked him if he had a pass—he said, "I have not, and I never had
One"—I said, "Do you know anything about this stack being on fire?"—he said, "I do not"—I then took him in custody and took him to the station—the paper was read to him—he said, "It is my name, but not my pass—he said, "pass"—before I got to the station I said, "You are charge on suspicion of setting the stack on fire"—he said, "I know nothing about it"—I searched him, but found no lucifers.
THOMAS CALVERT . I am a sergeant of artillery, stationed at Woolwich—the prisoner was a soldier in that regiment—this pass is one which I backed for him on the morning of 15th December—it is not a pass, it is a leave list—my name is burnt out of it—his leave expired at 12 o'clock that Saturday night, and he should have returned to his quarters at midnight on Saturday, but he did not.
WILLIAM PAGE . I live at Lea-road, and am in the service of Mr. Wallis, the prosecutor—(The name being spelt "Waller," in the Indictment the Court ordered it to be amended)—I know the stack of hay which was burnt down—it belonged to my master and was worth about 225l.—it was all destroyed either by fire or water; it is not worth anything—I do not know the prisoner—the stack was four or five yards from the ditch and the fence—nobody had any business there—there was another large stack by the side of it, and part of a third—we had to play on the stack which was not lighted, to keep it from lighting—by a fence I mean a quick hedge.
Prisoner's Defence. I own that it is my pass, but I gave it to another man twenty minutes before—I was so frightened at the time that I did not know what I was doing.
GUILTY —(His sergeant gave him a good character, and stated that drink must have been the cause of his committing the crime.)
Four Years' Penal Servitude.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. TINDAL ATKINSON for the prisoner stated his willingness to plead guilty to the unlawful wounding, to which MR. BESLEY, for the prosecution, consented, and offered no evidence upon the felony.
The prisoner stating that he was guilty of the unlawful wounding, the Jury found a verdict of
The prisoner received a good character.— Confined Four Months.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
PLEADED GUILTY — Confined Four Months each.
ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, JANUARY 28, 1861.