CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
WIRE MAYOR. THIRD SESSION.
A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.
LONDON AND MIDDLESEX CASES.
OLD COURT.—Monday, January 3d, 1859.
PRESENT—The Rt. Hon. the LORD MAYOR; Sir GEORGE CARROLL, Knt., Ald.; Mr. Ald. SALOMONS; and Mr. RECORDER.
Before Mr. Recorder and the First Jury.
MR. SLEIGH, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
PARKINS CHARLES HAWK . I am a clerk in the Union Bank of London at the Argyll-street branch. On 1st December, a person came to my desk at the bank, and asked for Mr. Whitehead's pass-book—I cannot say for certain that I see that person here to-day—the prisoner is very much like the person—the person said, "I want George Whitehead's pass-book and cheques"—Mr. Whitehead keeps an account at our bank—it is not our custom to give back the cancelled cheques, unless they are asked for by the customer—it was the practice in Mr. Whitehead's case—I handed the pass-book to the person, together with the cancelled cheques in the pocket—among others, I believe there was one drawn in favour of Colonel Tynte—the person opened the pass-book, took out the cheques, and said, "It is all right."
HENRY GLENNY . I am a cashier at the Argyll-street branch of the Union Bank of London. On 3d December, about twenty minutes to 11 in the morning, a cheque was handed to me for payment over the counter—this is it—it purports to be drawn by a customer of ours, Mr. George Whitehead, in favour of Colonel Tynte, for 259l., dated 1st December (read)—on looking at the cheque, I made some references, having some doubt as to the signature, which confirmed my suspicions—I did not ask the prisoner any questions about it—I immediately communicated with Mr. Inkpen, the manager, and the prisoner was introduced into his room.
GEORGE WHITEHEAD . I am a conveyancer, and have chambers at 10, Coleman-street, Oxford-street—I have an account at the Union Bank—this cheque was not drawn by me, or by my authority—the signature is a very good imitation—I have been in the habit of drawing cheques in favour of Colonel Tynte—I had three transactions with him in the month of November—I had not, on 3d December, received back the cancelled cheques from the bank—I have never received them since, nor my pass-book either.
ROBERT FREDERICK INKPEN . I am the manager of the Argyll-street branch of the Union Bank of London. On 3d December I was summoned to my room, and found the prisoner there, and this cheque—I asked the prisoner from whom he got the cheque—he said from a person in Poland-street—I either asked him whether he knew the person, or he volunteered that it was Mr. Whitehead who had given him the cheque—I asked him if he had seen the person before—he said that he had met him a day or two previously, when he told him to come for the pass-book; that he had got the pass-book, and made an appointment for that morning to meet him again, when he promised him half-a-crown—I asked him his business—he said he was a brass-fitter, but was out of employment—I then inquired whether he did not think it strange that a person should entrust him with a cheque for 259l. to present—he made no answer—I then sent for an officer, and gave him into custody.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You are not sure whether you asked him, or whether he volunteered to say it was from Mr. Whitehead? A. I am not quite sure whether I asked him the name of the person, but he certainly mentioned Mr. Whitehead's name, as the person that employed him to present the cheque—I am quite sure of that—I am not aware that Mr. Whitehead's name was mentioned before—I had the cheque in my hand—I made no memorandum of the conversation—I am speaking of it now from memory—this case was postponed from the last session—the assistant-manager was in and out of the room during this conversation.
JOHN LOMBARD (Policeman, C 14). I took the prisoner into custody—I told him he was charged with passing a forged cheque for 259l.—he said, "I am very sorry for it"—that was all he said—he gave his address, 3, Phoenix-street—I found that to be his mother's address.
Cross-examined. Q. Did he not say that he had nothing further to say except what he had said already? A. He said that at the station to the inspector—before the Magistrate, he said he had only to say what he had said before. The prisoner received a good character.
GUILTY of Uttering.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. — Confined Twelve Months.
GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor. Confined Eighteen Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Two Years.
MR. T. SALTER conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM HALL . I am a labourer in the London Docks—on 13th December, about 10 minutes to four in the afternoon, I was holding a gentleman's horse at 8, St. Mary-at-Hill, and saw Chance come out of No. 34, a shop where there are barrels and casks, with a large copper can in his hand—he came down the hill with it, and went through Cross-lane. towards Billingsgate, and then through a court into another lane—I did not follow him because I had the horse and cart—I went that evening, about 10 minutes to 9, with two policemen to Saville's house, which is a marine store shop, No. 53, Charles-street, Oakley-street, Lambeth—we found both the prisoners there, and I saw Sergeant Budd take out this copper (produced) from under a table in the back parlour—I said that Chance was the boy who stole the copper—it was then broken up—Chance said "Here, here, put something behind him and struck me on the thigh with a 4 lb. brass weight—he said that Saville had bought the can of him for 5s. 3d. and Saville said that he had—the policemen took them in custody—I had not seen Chance between the time he took the can, and his going to Saville's house, but I knew him well, and knew his parents.
Cross-examined by MR. LILLEY. Q. Is St. Mary-at-hill on the Middlesex side of London-bridge? A. Yes—Oakley-street is between, the Westminster-road and the Waterloo-road—I have no watch, but there is a clock hanging up at St. Mary-at-hill—the can was not broken up while I saw Chance with it, but it might have been bruised—I did not see him go into Saville's shop with it—I saw him go in at 10 minutes to 9 with a 4 lb. brass weight—Westminster-road may be two miles from St. Mary-at-hill—I could walk there in half an hour—between 4 o'clock and 9 o'clock I gave information to a sergeant and private of the M division, and we went and searched Saville's old house in Gravel-lane—that was shortly after 6 o'clock—I have taken old rags and bones to a marine-store dealer's—I do not Know that old copper is worth 9d. per lb.—I may have seen it on the bills.
MR. SALTER. Q. Did you see Chance go into Saville's house? A. I saw him just going in when I was with the two constables—he had nothing in his hand, but one hand was in his pocket: he had nothing that I could see—we did not get to Saville's house till 9 o'clock because we went to his old house first, and he had changed his residence—I was engaged in searching for him till that time.
Chance. Q. Do you know me? A. Only as far as this case goes; you have been obliged to do various things for your living—I did not go out with you the first thing in the morning picking pockets.
Chance. Did not you and another young man with us pick a pocket, and go and sell it, and then did you not say, "We have had no luck to-day"; and I said "No?" You were not in charge of any horse and cart; you said to me, "There is a copper can to be got". I got it, and took a turn to the right, and lost you, and as you did not find me to give you half the money
you went and called a policeman. Witness. I had not seen you that day; Mr. Geo. Brew knows that I was at work with him, and earned 1s. 10d. during the day, and Mr. Pigus gave me 1s. for holding his horse and cart.
THOMAS TITCHENER (Policeman, 185 L). On 13th December, about 9 o'clock at night, I was on duty in Oakley-street near Saville's shop—I went there with Hall, and found Chance standing just inside the shop door—Saville was just between the parlour and the shop—there is a door between the two—Hall pointed to Chance and said, "That is the boy that stole the copper"—that was in Saville's hearing. A. I did not hear him say anything as I remained in the shop—I took this weight out of Chance's hand—the sergeant searched the shop; that was after he had mentioned the copper can in Saville's hearing—I weighed it; it weighed 11 lbs.
Cross-examined. Q. Was 9 o'clock the first time you saw Hall? A. Yes, within a few minutes of 9—I saw Chance go into the shop.
MR. SALTER. Q. Are the constables on the Surrey side the M division? A. Yes.
GEORGE BUDD (Policeman, L 9). I went into Saville's shop. 53, Charles-street, Oakley-street, and found both the prisoners there—I did not say what I came for, but walked straight through into the back parlour, and found this copper can broken up under the table—the parlour is not the place where copper is kept; it is where they lived—there was a cloth on the table which hung down, but not far—I said to Saville, "You must go to the station; this copper is stolen"—I said to Chance, "What did you get for this?" He said, "5s." Saville said "5s. 3d.," and then Chance said, Yes, 5s. 3d."
Cross-examined. Q. Have you weighed it? A. No—I am not aware that 9d. per pound is the price usually given for old copper.
Cross-examined. Q. Are you able to identify it? A. No, it is so disfigured—I use several of them in my establishment—they are under the control of a foreman, but I am able to say, from my own personal knowledge, that one is missing—I saw it in use about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and a man complained to me about it next morning—it was worth, I suppose, 1s. per lb.
Chances Defence. I am innocent of the charge; the witness stole it, and gave it to me to take home.
COURT to WM HALL. Q. Have you ever been in custody at all? A. No—I have never had a charge made against me—I have never been in gaol—I have a character for twenty-one years.
WILLIAM CHANCE— GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.
FREDERICK SAVILLE— NOT GUILTY .
There was another indictment for stealing the weight.
PLEADED GUILTY.—He received a good character, and was recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor.
Confined Nine Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN GILL . I live at Cork. On 10th December last, I was in London—about 7 in the evening I took a cab in Cheapside, and saw my carpet-bag placed safely on the roof of the cab; it contained a coat, two shirts, and a good many articles—I have seen all the contents of my bag since—there was also 2l. 6s. 2 1/2 d., in money—I looked round three times as I went along, to see if my bag was safe, and the fourth time on looking round at Portman-square, it was gone—this is my bag (produced)—it contains all the articles that were in it when it was lost—I should say about ten minutes elapsed between my seeing the bag safe and missing it.
Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. What kind of cab was it? A. A four-wheeled cab—I was sitting outside next the driver, two gentleman were inside—they are not here—I did not see the bag again until last Friday—I am quite certain this is my bag, and its contents—it was quite dark when it was lost—I went on straight to the railway.
JOHN CARVER . I am a cab-driver of 26, Doughty mews, Guilford-street—on the evening of 10th December, the last witness hired my cab, and placed a carpet-bag on the roof of it which has a cradle at the back, and an iron railing, according to the new regulations—this was shut down over the carpet-bag when I started from Cheapside—we missed the bag when we were in Portman-square.
Cross-examined. Q. You mean an iron rail two or three yards above the top of the cab? A. Yes, the cradle is formed of two pieces of iron, which run up each side of the back, and some more across it—it stands up at the back to prevent the luggage falling over the back or sides—the cross piece reaches three parts of the way across the cab—the covered part reaches about half-way.
MR. LILLEY. Q. At what time did you take up your fare? A. Eight or ten minutes past 7—I was about half-an-hour driving to Portman-square—the cradle was up—it was over the bag; it stood upright.
WALTER HOLMES (Policeman F 50). On 10th December at a little after half-past 7 in the evening, the prisoner passed me while I was with another officer—he was carrying this carpet-bag under his arm, and walking very quick—I followed him a few yards, and was going to take hold of his arm, when he turned round, threw it down, and ran off as hard as he could—I pursued him and took him in custody—I found Mr. Gill's name on it, and had to write to Cork to him—I saw him for the first time on January 1.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you know the prisoner before? A. Yes; and he knew me I suppose: he had occasion to—I knew him to have been a thief, and he knew that I was aware of that fact.
He was further charged with having been before convicted.
Walker, convicted of stealing a coat; Confined Twelve Months")—I had him in custody—the prisoner is the person.
GUILTY.**— Confined Eighteen Month.
MR. ROBINSON conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES TURTLE . I live at Sawpit-cottage, Hackney—on 9th December, between 6 and 7 o'clock, I was walking along King Edward's-road, Hackney—I heard footsteps behind me, and the prisoner seized me by the back of my neck, got his finger and thumb into my throat, and strangled me till I fell down insensible—he held me four or five minutes—there was one other person besides the prisoner—he took hold of my left arm—the prisoner seized me by the throat and strangled me; I cannot tell what was done afterwards and I was not aware that I was on the ground, but when I came to I was on the ground for a few seconds—I had in my pocket a porte monnaie, containing 3s. 6d., a card, and two keys attached to a chain—I had a leather bag with me containing some bread and butter, and wood—I had been to market, and was going home—I afterwards missed my porte monnaie, and 3s. 6d.—I described to the policeman where I thought he would find it, and he found it next morning, and I said that it was my chain—there was only 6d. in the purse.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Was it dark? A. Yes—the men were gone when I recovered, but immediately after that the prisoner was brought out of a garden on to the pavement, in custody—the policeman asked me whether that was the man—I said, "That is the man"—I have no doubt about him—I saw him immediately—the occurrence did not occupy eighteen minutes, and there were several others whom I cannot identify—(Charles Witham was called into Court.) I do not know that man—I do not recollect speaking to him that night.
LEVY FOX . I am a signal man on the Eastern Counties Railway, and reside at Eaton-place, Hackney—on 6th December, I was in the Cat and Mutton Fields—four men passed me going towards the Triangle; towards the spot where this happened—the prisoner is one of the four—they were going in the same direction as I was, they passed me twice; I was walking slowly—I shortly afterwards heard a scuffle and a fall on the ground—I ran about thirty yards towards the spot whence the sound proceeded, and saw four men pass me—I saw the prisoner running from where Mr. Turtle fell—he ran to a wall, and got over into a garden—I told a policeman—I picked up a carpet bag about fifty yards from where Turtle fell, in a direction towards the garden wall; I took it back and gave it to the policeman—I called out "Police" and "Stop thief"—I saw a policeman get over the wall, and bring the prisoner back.
Cross-examined. Q. When the four men passed me, I was about a quarter of a mile from where the prosecutor was lying, as near as I can guess—the prisoner is one of them, he passed me twice—I was about thirty yards from where I heard the fall—I walked back to where the man was lying—a young man was walking with me towards my home—I said, "I think here is a case on"—we heard a scuffle and a hat fall on the ground; that was the prosecutor's hat—that was about a quarter of an hour after the four men passed me—there are some ruins there—they were going towards where the
prosecutor was afterwards attacked—I did not see him attacked, but I ran up to him and found him lying on the ground—I did not know the prisoner before—I was in quite as bright a mood as I am to-day—I have got a holiday to-day.
FREDERICK JOHN UPTON . I am a carpenter, of Hackney—I was with Fox—I never noticed any men pass; but I heard a scuffle, ran up and saw the prisoner running away from the place, and two others—they ran towards the way we were coming; up among some trees where there was a wall and a garden—we looked among the trees, but could not find the prisoner—a policeman looked over the wall, saw the prisoner, got over, and brought him back—I saw the bag picked up between where the scuffle took place and the wall.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you see the prisoner's face. A. No; I only speak to him by his dress—I saw him after he was taken—he did not seem; to have been drinking; but he tried to sham being drunk—there were not many people about till after it happened; when two or three people came up, or there may have been half-a-dozen—there were not a dozen; they were men.
DANIEL MARTIN (Policeman, N 454) I was coming "along King Edward's-road, on 6th December—heard a cry of "Stop thief!" and saw the prosecutor on the ground—I received information, went to a garden wall, and saw a man get over—I did not lose sight of him, but got over the wall—he went across the garden and was climbing the second wall when I took him—it was the prisoner—I took him to the prosecutor, who said, "That is the man"—he did not say a word—I took him to the station—Fox gave me this bag (produced) with the things in it.
Cross-examined. Q. Was he drunk? A. I did not perceive it—I believe him to have been sober—I have only been drinking a very little to-day—I saw him go over the wall—I did not notice that there was a water-closet in the garden.
MR. RIBTON called
CHARLES WITHAM . I am a boot-maker—I never saw the prisoner before to my knowledge—I was at the scene of this occurrence on this night, and saw three young men shoving each other, and behaving foolishly—they got fifty yards ahead of me, and stopped in a group—I saw four, and suppose the prosecutor to be one—I got about twenty-five yards from them, and at last within a yard of them, and they ran away—one of them had a black shiney bag like this in his hand, and ran past me with it—I saw the prosecutor lying on the ground, and saw them come away from him—I walked up to the prosecutor directly, and heard a cry of "Stop thief!" and "Police!"—only three men passed me; I saw no one else running away—I am able to say that the prisoner was not one of the three—there were two boys of about twenty, and a man about my height—I did not see the prisoner taken—I got mixed up with this by speaking of it in many places, and on one occasion I was having a glass of refreshment at the Horns opposite Shoreditch church, and heard a man and woman talking about it—I said that I saw it all, and the woman said, "Will you say that before a, Judge?" I said, "Yes"—my address was then written in a book, and I was
subpoenaed—I never saw the prisoner in my life till now, and can swear he was not one of the three—they were thin stripling boys.
Cross-examined by MR. ROBINSON. Q. Do you say that two were boys of about twenty, and that the other was about your height and size? A. Yes, but not so old—I am over forty—it was one of the boys who carried the bag—I should think I was about forty yards off at the time I saw the group of four—it was a dark night, but there were lamps—the nearest point I could be on to the four, was twenty-five or thirty yards—it was in a road; there was a space on each side—the prosecutor laid close to a ruin, where a house had been pulled down—when I saw the group of four, I had just got up to the ruins—it is ten days ago that I saw them in the public-house; they only asked me for my name and address, and the man wrote it down in a pocket-book—I never saw the prisoner till I was standing where I am now, and I never saw the other man or woman before or since.
COURT. Q. If you never saw the prisoner before, how do you know he was not one of the three? A. Because they were young men—I of course could not know that the prisoner was not one till I saw him—I came here as a witness because I was subpoenaed—I was told that he was an old man, but it was not till this afternoon—I am sure he is not one of the three, they were quite stripling boys—after I saw the three persons run away, I went up to the prosecutor and asked him what was the matter—he was gurgling as if he was in a fit—I asked him if he was hurt; he said hesitatingly, "No, but they have stolen my bag"—I asked him if he knew the parties—he said, "No, they came behind me and kicked me"—I could not see him—a man with some letters on the collar of his coat came up and showed me his bag, to show that he had lost nothing—I asked him again if he should know the parties—he said, "No, they came behind me."
GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
NEW COURT.—Monday, January 3d, 1859.
PRESENT—sir GEORGE CARROLL, Knt., Ald.; Mr. Ald. ALLEN; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant and the Fifth Jury.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Four Months.
MR. T. ATKINSON conducted the Prosecution.
HARRIET HOPKINS . I am the prisoner's wife; we have been married seventeen years—I have part of a house in Great Tower-street. On 16th November my husband came home in the evening—he was not quite tipsy; he was the worse for liquor—I was sitting on a chair; he told me to go up-stairs—I made no answer, but got up to go and he hit me on the foot with the office poker—I fell on the ground, and while I was on the ground
he kicked me on the lower part of my leg, where he had previously struck me with the poker—a policeman came in and I was taken up-stairs to bed—I was afterwards taken to the hospital; I am there now.
Prisoner. I came home at half-past 6 o'clock and said to her, "You had better go up stairs"—I saw she was pretty near drunk. Witness. I was not the worse for liquor—I had been drinking a little—I had had been, and gin; you have complained of me without occasion—I have never been the worse for liquor—I was not so on the Saturday before, nor did I fall against the letter press—my boy did not tell me that he should never forget my being drunk on the Sunday.
HENRY JARVIS . I am house surgeon at St. Thomas's hospital. I have attended Mrs. Hopkins several times and have examined her leg—I was not on duty when she was first admitted; there was a fracture of both the bones of her leg above the ancle—there was a bruise, but the skin was not broken; there were not any defined marks of violence.
COURT. Q. Suppose it was occasioned by a blow from any weapon, and there was a stocking between the weapon and the leg, would that prevent any defined marks of blows? A. It might—I saw no defined marks, but in my judgment it proceeded from a fall—it was a week afterwards before I saw her—supposing the wound to have been occasioned by a blow, I should have expected when I saw her a week afterwards to have seen more defined blows, and therefore the probability is, that it was the result of a fall rather than a blow—supposing it had been a blow with a poker, the appearance might have been as I saw—though more probably there would have been more defined marks—but it might still be true that it proceeded from a blow—it might have proceeded from a blow or a fall—the idea I had from her was that she had the blow, and fell—a person who received a blow which did not fracture, could by a fall fracture bones in such a manner and in that situation—all I saw could have been effected by a fall decidedly.
THEODORE FOULGER (City-policeman). I apprehended the prisoner on the day after his wife was taken to the hospital—I told him the charge was assaulting his wife, and breaking her leg—he said he knew nothing of it, his wife fell in the office.
Prisoner's Defence. I had had nothing to make me tipsy—she was tipsy, had she been in her right senses this would not have occurred—she has been drunk on Friday, Saturday, Monday, Tuesday, and sometimes on Wednesday, for eighteen or twenty weeks—there is a long score standing up against me now—on Thursday she would get a little sober, and then on Friday go to work and get money and get drunk again—there has not been a week that she has been sober for five years—there never was a poker in that room, she got her feet entangled in her dress and fell.
NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT.—Tuesday, January 4th, 1859.
PRESENT—sir GEORGE CARROLL, Knt. Ald.; Mr. Ald.; CHALLIS; Mr. RECORDER; and Mr. Ald. ALLEN.
Before Mr. Recorder and the Second Jury.
PLEADED GUILTY .—He received a good character— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. THOMPSON conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN SHEPHERD . I am an excavator, living at Plaistow-marshes. On Christmas eve about a quarter past 7 o'clock I came to the Fenchurch-street station—when I had got about fifty yards from the station the prisoner came up to me—she said, "I beg your pardon, sir, I thought you were my friend come to see me"—I said, "You have made a mistake this time, I am not your friend"—she said, "I am sure you must be him, for you are just like him in every way"—I said, "You are mistaken, my girl, I am not him"—she then wanted a glass of something to drink—I said, "No; I won't give you anything to drink"—when she found I would not give her any she wanted to give me some—I said, "No; I neither want you or your drink"—we walked along the street; she kept along with me—she said, "Come, let us go in somewhere"—I said, "No, I am not going in anywhere with you"—we walked together about twenty yards, and then she wanted to give me her address—I said, "I neither want you nor your address—I could not get shot of her, so I stepped on one side to take her address, and while standing there she put her hand into my pocket and took my purse—I believe it was in my trousers pocket—she then began to run away—I said, "Stop my girl, I want you"—her companion stepped up to me, caught hold of me, and said, "That is your road, sir"—I said, "No, this is my way;" I shoved him on one side, and ran after the prisoner, and caught her just as she was going into a house—I cannot say in what street it was she had run I should think about 100 yards from where she took the purse—I caught hold of her, and the purse was in her hand—I took it out of her hand—I found it was light—I said, "Give up the remainder"—she said she had not got any other—I said, "Yes you have, for I am sure there is some gone; if you do not give it up in a minute, I will have a policeman to you—she said, "I have not got any"—I said, "Give it up"—she would not, and I called a policeman—he came down, and said, "What is the matter?"—I said, "This girl has picked my pocket of my purse, and what was in it"—my purse contained 5 sovereigns, 2 half-sovereigns, and 16s. 9d.—I was so confused I could not count it at the time—I gave it to the policeman when I got to the station.
Cross-examined by MR. DOYLE. Q. Were you quite sober that evening? A. Yes—I have been living at Plaistow for the last fifteen months—I am single—I met the prisoner about fifty yards from the Fenchurch-street station—I did not stay to talk to her until I waited to get her address—I kept on walking for seven, eight, or ten minutes—I can't say what streets we went along—I was making the best of my way from London-bridge, along bye-streets—I did not suggest that she should go with me into a retired corner, or any place—we kept talking as we were walking—I told her all the time that I did not want her—we had walked together for some
minutes before she asked me to drink—I did not put my arm round her at all—she did not say that she was afraid the police might find her if any thing took place in the street—I don't recollect any such words—I swear she did not say so—I believe the purse was in my left hand trousers pocket—I am sure it was—I cannot pledge my oath of it—I know it was either in my waistcoat or my trousers pocket—I do not know the name of the place where I seized her with the purse—I mean to swear that she ran away—she ran about 100 yards, and when I came up to her she had the purse in her right hand; the policeman has it—the silver in it was three half-crowns, nine shillings, and a 3d. piece—I am able to swear that—I did not tell the policeman what the coins were; I told him I did not know—I have recollected since.
HENRY TRINDER (City policeman, 586). On Christmas-eve, about half-past 7 o'clock, I took the prisoner into custody, in Weighhouse-yard, Love-lane, Eastcheap—I came up at the time the prosecutor had hold of her—he said, "This woman has robbed me of my purse, and I shall give her into custody"—I said, "Where is the purse?"—he said, "I have it here"—he had got it doubled up—I did not take the purse then, until we got to the station—there were two of her associates there at the time—she was searched at the station, and nothing was found on her—when I opened the purse, it contained 5 sovereigns, 2 half-sovereigns, half-a-crown, 9s. 6d., and a 3d. piece—the prosecutor said, in the prisoner's presence, that there ought to be 6l. 17s. 9d. in the purse—the streets leading from Fenchurch-street to London-bridge, are broad streets—I consider Mark-lane a broad street.
Cross-examined. Q. This was in Love-lane? A. At the corner of Weigh-house-yard and Love-lane; Love-lane-leads out of Eastcheap to Billingsgate—you would pass by Love-lane on the way from Fenchurch-street to London-bridge; it is the direct road—there were one or two other persons about at the time.
GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
MR. SHARPE conducted the Prosecution.
JOHANNA GEDLING . I am the prisoner's wife—I had been living with another woman, as the prisoner had deserted me—I met him in the City on 20th December, and we went on to Bowling-green-lane—he asked me to take hold of him—I refused—he said that he would go home—I said that he should not—he got hold of my shawl, and cut it, I believe, with a knife, but I did not see one in his hand—he then tore my bonnet and cap, and then struck me on the mouth—there was a cut, and it bled very much—I cannot say whether he had a knife in his hand or not—he ran away, and I followed him—I was under treatment for it.
Cross-examined by MR. T. ATKINSON. Q. Did your mouth bleed inside? A. Yes, and outside too—my mouth continued to bleed for some days—I could not take hot or cold water into my mouth—the skin was cut—I had no plaister put to it—here is a scar on my upper lip outside—the prisoner had been away from me two years and nine months—I have taken away his furniture lately—I did not go with some men and clear the house—I went by myself—I left him to get another house for the woman he is
keeping—you had better ask him whether I have been in gaol lately; I shall not answer you—I have not been in gaol within the last two months; not for the last six months—I have not come here to answer you how long I have been in gaol—I have not been ten or twelve times in gaol within the last two years, nor yet once; but if I have, my husband brought me to it—it was for uttering counterfeit coin—I cannot say within what period; it was within the last six months—it is about three weeks ago that I stripped his house of his furniture—I met him in the street, and followed him—I certainly abused him—he did not request me to go away; he struck me then—he followed me—he gave me in charge in Old-street at the same time—he struck me once in Fore-street on the same day, and pulled my bonnet off—it was in the afternoon that he struck me on the lip—he followed me and said he would go home—I was not abusing him—I went on the other side of the way, and he followed me, and when he saw there was no mob, he cut my shawl off my back—I did not try to get away while he was doing so—I did not struggle with him—it was while he was pulling my bonnet over my face that I felt the cut on my lip.
MR. SHARPE. Q. Was your lip cut externally as well as internally? A. Yes; it was cut right through—I was convicted, but my husband brought me to it, and he gets his living by it now.
GEOGE ROPKINS . I am a cabinet maker of 7, Wood-street, Exmouth-street. On 20th December, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, I was going home to tea, and saw the prisoner and prosecutor at the corner of Bowling-Green-lane—the prisoner said to her, "Catch hold of my arm," he then pulled her bonnet over her eyes, and some people hallooed out, "There is a knife," but I saw no knife—I saw blood on the female's lips, and saw four cuts from the knife on the breast part of her shawl—I saw the prisoner put his hand in his pocket, and saw blood on his knuckles—he ran away, I followed him, saw him throw something into a cart, and found there this knife (produced) with blood on the blade and handle.
Cross-examined. Q. Did his hands appear as if they were bleeding? A. There was blood on them, I cannot tell where it came from—I did not see that his knuckles were cut, I thought he might have hit her in the mouth and hurt his knuckles—I did not hear the dispute about the furniture—she was not quarrelling with him that I heard after I went up—it was all done in about four minutes.
WILLIAM FISHER (Policeman, A 438). I took the prisoner in the Bagnigge-wells-road about 4 o'clock in the afternoon—his knuckles were cut—I looked at the knife, and there was blood on the blade—the prosecutor gave him in charge—her lip was cut through from the outside to the teeth, it was severed—it was a kind of a rounding cut—I did not take her to a surgeon, she went to the station and the blood stopped.
GUILTY. of Unlawfully wounding. — Confined Six Months.
THOMAS CRANFIELD . I live at 1, Saville's-buildings. On Tuesday night last, I was outside Mr. Skinner's door and saw the prisoner take a coat which was outside, and run up the buildings where my mother lives—I told the shopman who was standing outside, he waited till the prisoner came down the court, took hold of him, and brought him into the shop wearing the coat which he had stolen.
JOHN HIGHLAND . A little girl gave me information, and I saw Cranfield at the top of the court—I went to the place and missed a coat—I stood in confusion as there was a great crowd round the door—I looked down the court and saw the prisoner with the coat on—I took him back; the foreman took it off of him and I gave him in charge—he said that he picked it up, but it was a very dirty night, and the coat was not the least soiled.
GUILTY .**— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .
His father gave him a good character and engaged to provide for him at the expiration of his sentence.— Four Years Penal Servitude.
174. WILLIAM EDWARD CLARK (19), and WILLIAM CLARK (50) , Feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of 73l. 4s. 2d., with intent to defraud; also said W. E. Clark feloniously forging and uttering the said order, and said William Clark charged as an accessory after the fact; to both of which
W. E. CLARK PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
MR. SLEIGH for the Prosecution offered no evidence against
WILLIAM CLARK, NOT GUILTY .
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES MCBRIDE . I am chief usher of Worship-street Police-court—I was acting as such on 4th December, when, a charge was preferred by the prisoner against Sarah Levy—I administered the oath to the prisoner Ellen Clarey in due form and heard her give her evidence.
ARTHUR HERBERT SAFFORD . I am second clerk at Worship-street, Police-court—Sarah Levy who was in custody was charged with cutting and wounding Ellen Clarey—I took down what Ellen Clarey said—(This was as follows: that Sarah Levy said to Clarey, "You Irish whore I'll be your butcher to night," then went out of the shop, came in again and said, "I will not leave the house till I am your butcher," took a knife open from under her apron, cut Clarey above her thumb and ran off. That at the station Levy said to Clarey, "I will give you any money not to appear against me—that there was no person with Levy when she entered the shop, that she, Clarey, did not call Levy a whore or strike her, or strike the lock of the door, or part of it, and injure her hand; but that the injury to her hand was done by Levy with a knife which she saw in Levy's hand, and that it was a gentleman's pen knife.)
Prisoner. That is right what he says.
SRAH LEVY . I am the wife of David Levy—he was a passover-cake manufacturer, but has retired; he has a few houses and lives on his means—the prisoner has been charing for my sister and cousin—on 3d December I went with my niece Miss Chapman to Miss Hart's, and saw the prisoner cleaning in the passage—I said to Miss Hart, "How can you have her (the prisoner) here"—upon which the prisoner wanted to strike me with a flannel, but in making an aim at me, she hit her hand on this hasp of the door (produced) but did not succeed in hitting me—I did not strike at her with a knife or any instrument—I had no knife of any description by me—I did
not take a knife from any place and make a cut at her—I was afterwards charged before a magistrate with cutting her with a knife.
Prisoner. You said, "Have you got that Irish bitch here cleaning. Witness. I used no abusive epithet to you or of you—I did say how could you call me names if you were a prudent honest women, and you took up the flannel, aimed it at me, and hit your hand on the hasp of the door—I did not say, "I will be your butcher."
AMELIA CHAPMAN . My husband's name is James, we live in an alley in Goswell-street—I am the niece of the last witness, and went with her to Miss Hart's—she said nothing, but the prisoner who was cleaning, in taking up a flannel to strike Mrs. Levy, struck her hand against the hasp of the door—I saw that—I did not see my aunt with a knife in her hand or strike her at all.
Prisoner. Q. Did you call me an Irish whore? A. No.
RACHAEL HART . I am second cousin to Mrs. Levy, and live at 3, Goulston-street—I remember this evening—Mrs. Chapman came in, and the prisoner called her a w—e, and took up a flannel to aim a blow at Mrs. Levy, and her arm fell on the hasp of the door—this is it, it was loose—I saw moist blood on it about half an hour afterwards—Mrs. Levy had no knife, she made no blow at the prisoner, nor struck her, nor used any violence at all—shortly afterwards I saw the prisoner with a cut on her hand; she was pulling it open with her fingers, and I said, "Ellen do not do that"—she said, "I will say that she cut me with a knife"—I said, "Ellen, do not be so wicked"—after Mrs. Levy had been examined before the Magistrate on this charge, I said to the prisoner, "Ellen, do not say such a wicked word as that"—she followed me down Worship-street, and I said, "You wicked creature for swearing so falsely"—she said, "No, she has got money and I will have it."
COURT. Q. You did not say anything of that sort before the Magistrate? A. Yes I did—it was not many minutes after she struck her hand against the hasp that I saw her pulling the cut open—she knew I was the niece of Mrs. Levy, and yet she told me that she was going to say that she cut her with a knife.
Prisoner. The stain on the hasp was from my left hand—you were inside the cupboard with your back turned towards me, and I said, "Look what your cousin did." Witness. You did not—I was at the street door, which was not fastened—I did not want to keep you in.
MARY BARNET . I live at 6, New-court, Middlesex-street, Whitechapel—I am not married—after this happened I met the prisoner on Friday evening as I was going to my employers to be paid—I asked her what was the matter with her hand; she said that she had cut it with the hasp of the door—I said, "How came you to do it?"—she said that she wanted to get at Mrs. Levy, and her hand caught the door—this was on the same evening that it happened.
Prisoner. I never mentioned the words, and I never saw her.
COURT. Q. When did you first mention this? A. To Mrs. Levy the same day that it happened—that was before any charge was brought against Mrs. Levy—I also mentioned it to Miss Hart, and Mrs. Chapman—I did not mention it to anybody else—I told the officer—I do not work for Mrs. Levy—I met Miss Hart in Goulston-street, as I was going to be paid.
THOMAS HOMER . I am a surgeon of Stoke Newington—I examined the prisoner's wound at Worship-street police-court, and should say from it being a semicircular wound, and jagged, that it would be more likely to be done by this lock than by a knife—it was not a clean cut—here is blood on the lock now.
JURY. Q. Where was the wound? A. Just below the ball of the thumb—she would not be more likely to catch another part of her hand in making the blow with the flannel; she was above the lock.
Prisoner. Here is the cut where she drew the knife, could that be done with the box of a door?
ALFRED REED (Policeman, H 105). Shortly after this occurrence I went to Miss Hart's house and saw this lock—the upper part of it had blood on it—it was loose, and the sharp part was projecting from the door-post—the blood was quite moist—there were splashings of dirty water on the door-post.
JAMES EDMONDS (Called by the COURT.) I had a letter from the governor of Newgate, requesting me to come here—I was sent for to the police-office—I was not at home, and my assistant dressed the prisoner's wound—she came to me next morning, and the wound was undressed on purpose for me to see it, and I gave my opinion, after carefully looking at it, that it was done with some sharp instrument; but it is very difficult to distinguish between a wound done with a knife and one done with this box of the door, which I have only just seen; it would depend on the way it is cut; it is a semicircular wound going right round the ball of the thumb; it is ragged at one end but clean at the other; now a wound might be done with a knife and yet be ragged at one end, the first part of it would be jagged even if done with a razor; to my mind it seems a very difficult thing to make a semicircular wound such as this from striking an object. I think it began at the back (Examining the scar), but you can judge of it better, or as well as I can. The thick part of the wound is at the back, which would be the jagged part as I describe; that was evidently the last part that healed, as the scar is thicker there. This lock is so very sharp that I do not see how anyone can distinguish between a wound done by that and a wound done by a knife.
Cross-examined. Q. Are you prepared to say that such a knife as that described, would be more likely to inflict it than the sharp corner of that hasp, supposing the woman had thrown herself on it? A. It would depend entirely on the position of the door as to which side the hasp was.
JAMES MCBRIDE (re-examined). I went from the police-office to examine the spot after Mr. Hammill had admitted Mrs. Levy to bail—this part of the lock was loose and hung over about half an inch—I found blood there—the door opened inwards from the left—the door-post is on the right as you come out; if she was making a strike, her hand would come against it, and I found blood next morning just on this part of the box of the lock—it would be on her right hand going out.
JAMES EDMONDS (re-examined). If the woman's wrist came with force against this sharp corner of the hasp, I think it would inflict such a wound; in fact one corner is as sharp as a knife. How long blood will remain in a moist state depends upon the state of the atmosphere; a mere spot of blood, I think, would be dry in half an hour.
The prisoner produced a written Defence, stating that Mrs. Levy cut her with a pocket knife.
NOT GUILTY .
NEW COURT.—Tuesday, January. 4th.
PRESENT—Sir GEORGE CARROLL, Knt. Ald.; Mr. Ald. ROSE; Mr. Ald.
ALLEN; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant and the Sixth Jury.
PLEADED GUILTY .**— Six Years' Penal Servitude.
JAMES BRANNAN . I was formerly Inspector of police of the G division—I was employed last month to watch a house in Graham-buildings, Twister's-alley—On 21st December, I went to that house with Inspector Briant, Serjeant Brannan, and Elliott, about half-past 6 o'clock—I had watched the house all the week previously—I saw a youth named Upton go into the house—I followed him in soon afterwards—I went into a room on the left hand on the ground floor—the street door was ajar, and the door of the room also, but instead of the door opening into the room as I expected, I pulled it, and shut myself in the passage till I broke out—after opening the door, I went into the room with the three constables—I saw the three prisoners there with the youth already alluded to—William Elliott was standing with his back to a bed and his face towards me, and he put his left hand out as if throwing something, and I heard something knock against a basket which stood inside the door—at that time Briant seized him, a struggle ensued, and I saw a white lump drop from between them on the floor, and William Elliott used every effort to stamp on it, which he did before Mr. Briant could remove it—Briant pulled him away, and pushed him into another part of the room, and put him in custody of Serjeant Brannan and Elliott—Briant said "He has broken it"—and I saw Briant pick up the fragments of a plaster of Paris mould—I looked in the basket, and found this rag containing six counterfeit shillings, wrapped up separately, and folded this way—three of them are of the date of 1853, two of 1842, and one of 1820—when we went into the room, the two women were standing close to the fire, which was a very large one—the place was excessively hot—I went to the cupboard, and found two files with white metal in their teeth—a paper containing plaster of Paris in powder, some pieces of tin, a small portion of plaster on them, and in a tub which stood inside the door, I found this basin containing plaster of Paris, and three or four lumps of soft plaster—it had been recently mixed with water—it will be soft till dried with great heat—I said to William Elliott, "Well Mr. Elliott, I received instructions from the Mint to look after you—I believe you are dealing in counterfeit coin"—Margaret Elliott then said to him, "I told you the other night when you was doing this, that there would be a b—y buss some day"—and William Elliott said, "Mr. George Carroll is at the bottom of this—I have not been long at it—I can't be much worse off than I am"—we took the three prisoners away in custody, and took possession of the things that were there, and produce them to-day.
William Elliott. The piaster found in the tub was out of the basin which I washed, and it fell in the tub. Witness. No, it could not have been, for that was hard which was in the basin, and those lumps all melted like snow; Briant went to the basket and took out a long paper containing a crowbar which I generally carry with me.
BENJAMIN BRIANT . I am inspector of police of the G division—I went with Mr. Brannan on this occasion—I saw William Elliott throw a piece of rag into a basket, which stood in another one near the door—I immediately seized him and saw him put his left hand into his jacket pocket—I immediately pulled it out, and saw what appeared to he a mould wrapped in paper—I tried to get it from him, and struggling together, it fell and he trod on it—I pulled him away and put him in custody of Sergeant Brannan, and Elliott in another part of the room—I picked up the fragments of the mould, and found the impression of a Victoria shilling in a plaster of Paris mould—I afterwards searched him, and found in hw left-hand trousers pocket, a new Victoria shilling—this is it—I said to Mr. Brannan, "Halloa, what is this?" and William Elliott said, "That is the shilling belonging to the mould," and before we left the room he said, "I expected to see you some time or other—I have not been at it long—I have only lived here six or eight months."
William Elliott. That man never searched me at all—it was Mr. Brannan's son searched me, and took a good shilling and two 4d. bits. Witness. No, I searched him there—whether Sergeant Brannan searched him afterwards I don't know—Mr. Brannan did not take from him two 4d. bits and 4 1/2 d. in halfpence, while I was there.
JAMES BRANNAN, JUN . (Police-sergeant). I accompanied the last witness to the house—I followed him into the-room—I saw him search William Elliott, and take something from his pocket which I did not see, but I saw something in the shape of plaster of Paris mould fall on the floor—I said, "Look out, he will smash it"—I heard William Elliott say, "I am b—d if I did not expect this some day"—as we took the prisoners from the room the door was fastened by the prisoner, Margaret Elliott, with a padlock, and she put the key in her pocket—I had been watching the house for some time before—I had seen the whole of the prisoners go in separately, at times—I had seen William Elliott and Margaret Elliott selling apples at the door—I knew Smith—I had seen her go in that room ten or twelve times.
William Elliott. Q. Did you see the mould fall on the floor? A. I saw something fall on the floor, and saw you trampling on it.
ARTHUR ELLIOTT (Policeman, G 104). I assisted in taking charge of these prisoners—I heard Smith say, "It is a b—y good job that I was not out when they came, or you would have said it was me that put you away"—I understood what she meant by that—it was giving information—Margaret Elliott said, "No, it was that b—y George Carroll who has done this"—I found this counterfeit shilling on the floor, near where Smith had been standing—it is of the date of 1853—she said she knew nothing of it; when at the station, William Elliott said to Margaret Elliot, "Where did you get the plaster of Paris?"—she said, "Don't speak so loud—I got it at the corner of Chequer-alley, at the oil-shop"—I told her, I heard what she said about the plaster—she said, "That is right, that was where I got it from"—I had been watching the house for a month, before, day after day, and had seen the prisoners going in and out of that room for the last four weeks.
ANN BORER . I am the wife of Richard Borer—he keeps an oil and colour shop at the corner of Chequer-alley, St. Luke's. On 21st December, Margaret Elliott came to the shop for a pennyworth of plaster of Paris—she was served with it, and paid for it—she then asked me if I had a new Victoria shilling, as she wanted it for a very particular purpose—she offered me two sixpences for it—I had not got one to give her, and she went away.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to the Royal Mint—these are several particles of a plaster of Paris mould, containing the obverse and reverse sides of a shilling of the date of 1853—the good piece of coin is put on some flat surface, either glass or tin—a case is put round it, to keep the plaster in the space, and then the plaster is poured in, and when cold, it is taken off—they then make a channel, and place it in sand, and the metal is poured in, and by that means, you have an impression of a shilling—you pull the shilling out, and there is a large piece which is attached to it—that is broken off, and with a file, the piece is made to represent a good shilling, and it is then electrotyped—I can't say whether this piece of plaster had been a mould—if it had, it has not been used—here is the impress of this good shilling—here is no bad money from it—this one shilling is good—these others are bad; four of them are from one mould—these files are used for making good the milling at the edge of the coin—this plaster of Paris is what the moulds are made of.
William Elliotts Defence. I was acquainted with a young man named Carroll, who made this mould, for him to have 15s., and me to have 15s.—he showed me how to do it, and gave me the money to buy the plaster with—about ten minutes afterwards, he jumped up and said, "Will you have something to drink"—I said I did not care, and he said, "Have a drop of gin," and he went off—I never made any bad money—I never saw one made, and never passed one.
Margaret Elliott's Defence. When the officers came, I was out in the back-yard—I said, "O, my poor children!"—I know nothing of the bad money.
The prisoner William Elliott's father gave him a good character.
GUILTY .— confined twelve months.
NOT GUILTY .
MESSRS. ELLIS and CLERK conducted the Prosecution.
MARY ANN JENKINS . I keep the Hampshire Hog public-house, at Hammersmith. On 27th November, the prisoner was in my bar between 9 and 10 o'clock at night, with two or three others—the prisoner called for a quartern of gin, and tendered in payment a half-crown—I put it in a drawer where I had no other half-crowns—the gin came to 4d.—I gave him change—they drank the gin, and went out immediately—I then went to the till—I looked at the half-crown—there were two shillings there, but no other half-crown—I had not put any other half-crown in—I found it was bad, and put it away in a desk. On 11th December, the prisoner came again, with another lad—when he came in, my sister called my attention to the prisoner, and I watched to see what he did—he called for half a quartern of gin—it came to 1d.—he tendered a shilling—he put it down, and my sister gave it to me—I put it in my teeth, and found it was bad—I told the prisoner it was bad, and he said he did not know it; he took it at the
Angel—I gave him in custody—I gave the shilling to the officer, and I gave up the half-crown at the station.
Prisoner. She said she saw me go up the Turnham-green-road. A. That was on the Saturday, before you passed the bad half-crown.
MRY GATES . I am the sister of the last witness. On 20th November, the prisoner was in our house with a young lad, whom I had not seen before—they called for half-a-quartern of gin—the prisoner paid me a shilling—I put it in my teeth, and found it was bad—I returned it to him, and the other gave me a good shilling. On 11th December, the prisoner came with a short young man—the prisoner called for half-a-quartern of gin—he gave me in payment a shilling—I noticed that it was bad, and told him so—I gave it to my sister—the prisoner offered me another shilling, which was good.
PETER DUNCAN . In the beginning of last month, I was in the police-force—I took the prisoner in custody from Mrs. Jenkins—I got this shilling from her, and at the station, afterwards, I got this half-crown—I searched the prisoner, and found on him a good shilling.
Prisoner's Defence. When I gave her the bad half-crown, we had several quarterns of gin and some beer—when I gave the shilling, there were four or five persons round the bar—she said it was bad—I thought it was good; I did not know—one sister told the other that the young fellow in the flannel jacket had given her a bad shilling before, and then she looked at the half-crown, and saw it was bad—why did not she give me in charge?—we did not run away, but walked up the Turnham-green-road.
GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.
MESSRS ELLIS and CLERK conducted the Prosecution.
MARTHA ELIZABETH BRADBEER . My husband is a ginger beer dealer at 31, Greek-street—my son keeps a tobacconist's shop down stairs in the same house. On 28th December I was in my son's shop—the prisoner came there about 8 o'clock in the evening for half an ounce of tobacco—it came to 1 1/2 d.—I served him; he gave me a shilling—I gave him change, and put the shilling in the till—there were two or three other shillings there—this one was on the top—the prisoner came again at near 11 o'clock the same evening, for half an ounce of tobacco—I served him—he gave me another shilling; I put that in the till, and gave him change—he came in again in a few minutes for a penny pickwick; I served him and he gave me a shilling again—I gave him change for that—it remained on the counter—I found it was bad, and I opened the till and looked and found the other two shillings were bad, and were on the top of the other money—I tried the two as well as the one, and found they were all three bad, and they were precisely the same date—I saw the prisoner again about a quarter past 11; he came for half an ounce of tobacco—I weighed it, and he put a good sixpence on the counter—there were two gentlemen in the shop, and I said to one of them whom I knew, "This is the man that has given me this bad money"—the prisoner denied it, and made an attempt to rush out of the shop, but he was stopped by one of the gentlemen—the sixpence was still lying on the counter, and if he had gone away it would have remained there, and the tobacco too—I had not given him the tobacco—the policeman was coming by at the moment—I gave the prisoner in custody and gave the
three shillings to the policeman—I can't say which was the last he passed, but it was one of them.
MARY ANN YOUNG . I am the wife of William Young—I lodge at the last witness's—I was in the shop about 8 o'clock that night—I saw the prisoner come in for half an ounce of common shag tobacco—he gave a shilling and it was put in the till—I remained in the shop sometime longer, but I did not see the prisoner after the first time—I had some conversation with him the first time—he said he had a bad wife, and he did not care how soon he was gone, and he began to cry.
WILLIAM MURRAY (Policeman, C 80). I took the prisoner on 28th December—I saw a good sixpence on the counter—the prisoner said it was his—I found on him a 4d. piece, a piece of a penny pickwick, and the sixpence which was on the counter; he took it up—he gave his address, 3, treat White Lion-street, Seven-dials, which was correct; it is a fourpenny lodging house—on the first examination he said the woman was mistaken in the identity—ho had been in only twice—he told the Magistrate he had been in only twice; both times for half an ounce of tobacco, and did not buy a pickwick at all—these are the three shillings I got from Mrs. Bradbeer.
Prisoner's Defence. I was only in twice, and I offered a good sixpence on the second occasion.
GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
MESSRS. ELLIS and CLERK conducted the Prosecution.
WALTER HOLMES (Policeman, F 50). On 2d January I was on duty in Holborn, in plain clothes—Walker was with me, also in plain clothes—it was between 7 and 8 o'clock in the evening—we followed the prisoner and another man some distance—as we were going along Holborn the prisoner turned round and saw me—he knew me, and he said to the other man who was with him, "Come up here"—they were then at the end of a court—the prisoner began to walk up, himself, and the other man turned to follow him—I made a rush up the court, and laid hold of the prisoner—before I got to him he put both his hands in his trousers pockets—I told him I suspected he had got some base coin about him, and I should see—I and Walker took him in custody—he resisted very violently—I succeeded in getting one of his hands out of his pocket, and I put my hand in his pocket, and took out this purse, which had two sixpences in it, one bad and one good—I had pulled his left hand out, and he held that hand very close—I took his right hand out, but found nothing in that—he still held his left hand very tight—we tried to open it but could not—he bent his hand nearly double, and I heard something drop—a man opened his door just at that moment, and I asked him for a light, and I picked up this bag, containing seven sixpences, all wrapped in paper—we took him to the station, and as we were going along he said to mo, "Fifty, who has put me away"—I was in plain clothes, but he knew mo well—the other man was taken, and was detained that night; but he had nothing on him, and the Magistrate discharged him.
HENRY WALKER (Policeman, E 62). I was with the last witness on that occasion—we followed the prisoner for about ten minutes—he had another man with him—the prisoner turned round—I don't think he saw me; but he knew Holmes—ho turned up a court, and Holmes rushed up and seized him—he directly put his hands in his trousers pockets, and held them tight
—Holmes got his right hand out, and felt nothing in that pocket—he drew his left hand out and held it very tight—he bent down nearly double and dropped this bag containing these coins.
Prisoner. Q. Where did you lay hold of me? A. By the wrist; you had your hand in your pocket.
Prisoner. Q. What you heard jink was the halfpenny that fell out of my pocket? A. There was only one halfpenny on you, but it never went on the ground at all.
MR. ELLIS. Q. Who had hold of him first? A. Holmes had—his hands were then in his trousers pockets.
Prisoner's Defence. There was only one sixpence found on me—the purse was not found on me.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Four Months.
MR. WAY conducted the Prosecution.
PATRICK KELLARD . I am a general dealer, and live in Bear-court, Blackfriars-road. On 14th December I was coming down Fleet-street about 9 o'clock in the evening—the prisoner came alongside of me and told me a long story, that she had come from Lincolnshire, and she had no money, and she would be very thankful if I would give her a few halfpence to get her a lodging—I went into a public-house in White Friar-street on the right hand side—I had a pint of beer—the prisoner stood between me and the door—I drank, and then handed the pint to her, and said, "Drink that," and I went to pass her—she said, "I can't drink it all, you drink the remainder"—when I paid for the beer I took the money out of my right hand pocket—at that time my watch was safe certainly, it was fastened to the button hole or over the button with the key across—it was in my left hand waistcoat pocket—as soon as I got out of the house I went on my way home, towards Blackfriars-road—the prisoner walked outside of me in the street—she was after some money, and finding I denied her, she made a snatch at my watch—I made a grasp at her directly, and I received a blow at the back of my head, and down we both came together—I fell upon her; she was under me—it was a man that struck me, but I don't know who—when the prisoner made a snatch at my watch, she got it away, and the guard was hanging down, the ring breaking—the guard was left in my possession—when I was knocked down I had hold of her—with the blow my hat fell off—I kept my hand on her—she got her hand in my pocket—I noticed there was something in her hand, which was my purse with 1s. 6d. in it—I saw her pass her hand to the man, and the man ran away when he heard some persons coming towards me—I took my purse out of her hand; she made a snatch at my chain—I held her till the policeman came.
Cross-examined by MR. SHARPS. Q. What time was this? A. About 9 o'clock in the evening—I can't tell what time I dined on that day—I was not drunk—I was as sober as I am now—I dined at home—I don't know that I had anything to drink that day—I can't tell whether I drank anything before dinner—I don't recollect that I had any drink at dinner—I will
not swear what I don't recollect—I drink no spirits—I hare sometimes a glass of beer and sometimes not—after dinner I went to see a friend of mine near Oxford-street—it was a female servant in a hotel—I won't answer the question what I drank with her—it is not a fair question—after I left I came on my way home—I don't recollect at what hour I left the hotel, or at what hour I went there—I can't tell how long I stopped there—I stopped as long as I thought proper—I am my own master the same as you are—it was dark when I left; the gas was lighted—I don't know how long the gas had been lighted—I came on my way home, and met with the thief that robbed me—I had been in another public house before I saw the prisoner, and gave a pint of beer to a friend of mine—I did not drink any of it myself—I did not drink anything—I had no brandy, nor rum, nor whiskey—I don't like whiskey, though I come from the whiskey country—I don't know how long it was after I left the public house where I treated my friend before I met the prisoner—I don't know the name of the public house I went to afterwards—I remained there while I was drinking a part of a pint of beer; that was not long—I had nothing else to drink—I drank the first part of the pint of beer and the last part, and she drank the middle—she represented herself as a female servant—when I left the hotel I was going direct to Blackfriars-road—I was going down Whitefriars—I did not promise to give the prisoner some money—I had not been doing anything in the public-house with her—I went in by myself, and she followed me—I treated her; that was my own will—she had asked me for halfpence to get a night's lodging—I did not promise her some: what should I give her money for? she is a robber—when I got into the public-house, I was not in a state of intoxication—I was much the same as I am now, man—I did not see her with the watch in her hand—I felt the snatch, and felt the watch go out of my pocket—she said before the Alderman that I promised to give her money—I don't know whether she said so in Whitefriars—I did not promise her any—I saw her passing the watch to the man's hand—she snatched it out of my pocket, and the purse she took out of my pocket also—I did not look at the time in the public-house—I looked at my watch about 8 o'clock—from then till 9 I did not look at it—it was in my pocket—my purse is a leather purse—I suppose the money is in it which was in it, which was 1s. 6d.—I am a general dealer—I don't think there is any necessity for explaining the difference between that and a marine-store dealer—a general dealer is a man that goes to buy anything he sees—I never was in this Court, or any criminal court, thank God, nor my father before me, not as a witness—I have been married—I have one daughter, a young woman—I don't know what age I am; I don't think I am 60—I don't know who was the man that hit me—I never saw him before; I could not tell what sort of a man he was—I never saw him before—I see a good many men in the street.
WILLIAM GODFREY (City policeman 384). On Tuesday evening, 14th December, I found the prosecutor in Whitefriars, about 9 o'clock; he was holding the prisoner by the arm, and he had his watch chain and this purse in his hand—the chain has the ring of a watch on it. I took the prisoner to the station—she gave me an address, but not the right address—she gave the name of Ann Camm. I did not hear her say anything about coming from Lincolnshire.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you say she gave a false address? A. She did; I did not say before the Magistrate that she gave a correct address.
COURT. Q. Was your deposition read to you before you signed it? A. No; it was set before me, but was not read. (The witness deposition
being read, stated. "She gave a correct address, No. 9, Brick-lane, Spital-fields.") I said she gave a false address.
MR. SHARPE. Q. Was not the prosecutor drunk? A. I could not say he had not been drinking—he knew what he was about—he walked straight—I found nothing on the prisoner.
The prisoner was further charged with having been before convicted.
FRANCOIS PERRETT . I am a waiter at an hotel—I produce this conviction—I was present in this court on the 16th August last, when the prisoner was tried in the name of Ann Smith. (Read—"Central Criminal Court, August, 1858, Ann Smith, convicted of stealing a watch. Confined Three Months.) I was the prosecutor—the prisoner is the person.
GUILTY. Four Years' Penal Servitude.
OLD COURT.—Wednesday, January 5th, 1859.
PRESENT—The Rt. Hon. the LORD MAYOR; Mr. Baron MARTIN; Mr. Justice WILLES; Mr. Ald. COPELAND; Mr. Ald. ROSE; and MR. COMMON SERGEANT.
For the case of Richard Roper tried this day, see Kent Cases.
NEW COURT—Wednesday, January 5th, 1859.
PRESENT—Mr. RECORDER; and Mr. Ald. ROSE.
Before Mr. Recorder, and the Fifth Jury.
183. GLOUCESTER GALE (32), Was indicted for feloniously marrying Martha Gover on 3d July, 1858, his wife being then alive; also feloniously marrying Fanny Turrell on 17th August, 1858; also feloniously marrying Sarah Ann Drewett on 3d May, 1858; also feloniously marrying Lydia March on 3d January, 1858; also feloniously marrying Cecilia Maria Wye, on 30th November, 1857; to all of which he
PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years Penal Servitude.
MR. T. ATKINSON conducted the Prosecution.
CARL SCHRCEDER . (Through an interpreter). I keep an hotel for the reception of foreigners at 39, Finsbury-square—the prisoner came to my hotel on 30th July—I had known him about fourteen days before—he resided at my hotel for ten days—after he left I received a letter—a young man brought it to me about 5 o'clock in the evening—I believe I may know the young man if I see him again—I believe he lives in the house 17, Eagle-street—this is the letter that he delivered to me—it is in German—it is the prisoner's writing—I know his handwriting.
The translation of the letter was here read as follows—"Mr. Schroeder:—As you did not feel inclined to speak to me this morning,
you compel me to write to you the matter in question, touching a new suit of clothes has made you inacessible, and you sent to tell me that you would have nothing more to do with it; my circumstances however being of such emergency that I also have no time to spare, and I must be equally very short, so I require at once, (or else once and for all) 10l. sterling, from you by to morrow, 12 o'clock, at noon precisely; in default of which, so truly help me God, Mr. Br—, accompanied by some one, will find their way to your place, who will make you remember the concert evening of the 30th August in such a manner that you for England at least will have quite enough. You have compelled me to have recourse to that very extreme measure. The 10l. (not a penny less) I expect by to morrow at 12 o'clock, Monday, at 5, Cleveland-street, Fitzroy-square, first-floor at Mr. Hartman's, and should the whole amount not be there, you will have to attribute it to yourself, when in a couple of hours later, all will be over with you, farewell. C. Langnor.
Q. Were you at any concert with him in August? A. I have been at Cremorne Gardens and at Vauxhall—having received this letter I applied to Mr. Bull, and he introduced me to the police-office—I went to Fitzroy-square—I did not find the prisoner there, I then went to Eagle-street, City-road, he was not there—I went again, he was not there—I saw him approach in the street, and I walked with him into the house—I then said to him, "What have you done in writing such a letter to me?"—he said, "you have brought me to do so because I am starving"—he was going to say something more to me, but I said I did not wish to speak to him—I gave him into custody—he said at the station that he had nothing to do, and I ought not to give him in charge.
JOHN MARK BULL . I am a City-policeman—I went with the prosecutor to Eagle-street on 22d December—the prosecutor went into a house and I remained outside—the prosecutor gave the prisoner in custody—he appeared to understand perfectly what I said—I said I was a detective officer of the City, and he must consider himself in my custody for sending a threatening letter to that gentleman, pointing to the prosecutor, for the purpose of extorting money—I showed him the letter, and I cautioned him—he said it was his handwriting—I asked him how he came to write such a letter—he shook his head and said, "I have nothing to say"—I took him to the station and searched him, and amongst other papers I found this letter in German, which is a copy I believe of the original letter—I found on him 8s. 6 1/2 d.—I asked him his address, and he said he had got no home—he afterwards gave the address, Martin's lodging-house, Long-acre.
Prisoner's Defence. When I wrote a letter to Mr. Schroeder I did not think I was acting against the laws of this country—in my country such was not the case—the only punishment of a man is for the act—I only wrote a letter to Mr. Schroeder that I would come with somebody to his house, and that gentleman who I would take with me, would inform Mrs. Seyd of the character of Mr. Schroeder—I never intended to do anything to him—if I have done anything contrary to the laws of this country by writing such a letter, I beg pardon; I really did not intend to do any thing seriously, only to inform persons of the character of this gentleman—I have friends but I don't know that they are in court—Mr. Schroeder has represented me to Mrs. Seyd, that I have been a merchant in Hamburgh, and there failed, and that he applied to the government for a new invented boring machine to bore mines, and this model I had stolen from other persons in Germany.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, January 5th, 1859.
PRESENT—SIR GEORGE CARROLL, Knt., Ald.; MR. Ald. ALLEN; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant and the Eighth Jury.
DOMENICO LAURA . I keep an hotel in a street out of the Minories: On 20th December about 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, I was in the Minories—a man named Garland called out to me and I missed my handkerchief—I ran after the prisoner and overtook him—he said, "I will let you have your handkerchief if you will let me go on," and took my handkerchief out of the leg of his trousers—I gave him in custody—I am certain it is mine—I had had it eight or nine months.
DANIEL CRONIN . On 20th December, I was in the Minories with Henry Garland who has gone to sea—we saw the prisoner and another lad following the gentleman—the prisoner put his hand in the gentleman's pocket, took out a handkerchief, and turned down Hanover-court—he was overtaken in Northumberland-alley, and given in charge.
JOHN BRETT (City policeman, 514). The prisoner was given into my custody—Mr. Laura had got hold of him and he gave me this handkerchief—he asked me to give the gentleman the handkerchief and let him go.
Prisoner's Defence. I am certain that this was never his handkerchief—he said at the Mansion-house that he had only bought it that day, and now he says that he had had it nine months.
GUILTY .*— Confined Six Months.
MR. CAARTEN conducted the Prosecution.
ELEANOR DAVIES . I live at 22, Windsor-street, Bermondsey. On Christmas eve about half-past 11 o'clock, I was in Leadenhall market—I had an apron on with a pocket in it on the right-hand side, containing a purse with 9s. 6d. in it—there was a very great crowd—the prisoner was on my right, and his woman or wife on my left—I had my hand in my pocket and my purse was there—the prisoner got his left hand under my pocket, and his right was digging into my pocket to get the purse out—my pocket opens outside—he caught hold of the mouth of it and I missed my purse—I found my pocket torn—there was a hole at the bottom of it which was not there before—I caught hold of the prisoner's left hand before it left my pocket but the purse was gone—the woman said that it was not her husband who did it and blowed me up all the way to the station-house—I have not found my purse—I am sure the prisoner is the man.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Was the crowd all round you? A. Yes. I had felt my purse five minutes before—it was in my hand in my pocket, but I had taken my hand away from my pocket because the crowd was too tight for me to keep it there, as one party was going through one way and one another way—this was a piece of a dress which I was using as an apron—the mouth of the pocket opened outside the apron, but the pocket was inside—the prisoner and his wife were going in the same direction as I was—I held the prisoner by the collar two or three minutes till a policeman came up—he declared that he had not got it, and that he
and his wife were going to market for a piece of pork for their Christmas dinner—I was alone—I have been a widow 12 years, and take in washing and go out washing—this was an old black leather glove made into a purse with a piece of white tape through it—there was no hole in my pocket till the prisoner made it—the apron was tied to my waist, and hung down in front of my dress.
THOMAS CREW (City policeman, 570). I was in Leadenhall market, and saw the prosecutrix holding the prisoner by the collar—she said, "This man has picked my pocket"—I took him to the station, searched him, and found 5d. in halfpence, a pipe, some tobacco, and a latch key—he said, "I know nothing about it"—he gave me his right address—the female was searched by the female searcher—nothing was found on her, and she was discharged by the Magistrate.
Cross-examined. Q. Is the prisoner a tailor? A. Yes; I called at his request, on Mrs. Bushnell who he works for, and who carries on the business of a tailor.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS ROBINSON . I live at 6, Thurloe-place, Lower Norwood, and am the owner in conjunction with my son of 5, Farringdon-street, in the parish of St. Sepulchre—this is the lease (This was dated 28th February, 1813, from James sivewrite, for twenty-one years)—it being empty in November, I engaged Mr. Martin to let it, and in consequence of what he told me, I met Perry at his office on 23d November—Perry proposed to take the house for the remainder of my lease, about fifteen years, paying 50l. premium—I bargained for 100l—he said that he was a printer in a large way of business, at 12, Milbank-street, Westminster, and that he wanted the house for a printing establishment, to put in expensive machinery to a large amount, and that he should want several hundreds to get it ready—he said that he was going to commence almost immediately—I ultimately agreed to take 100l. by three bills, and he signed this agreement (produced), in which he describes himself as a stationer of 12 Milbank-street, Westminster—Henry Baker was keeping the house for me at the time—I gave Perry possession on 25th November—it was not in a very good state as to the leads, but all the other part was in good repair—there was lead on the roof, and piping in the drain-pipes and water closets—there was also a large iron safe fixed, belonging to the owner of the house, which was worth not less than 15l. or 20l.; also some mahogany swing doors with plate glass, which cost not less than 50l. with the fittings on them—I told Perry that the iron safe did not belong to me, but to the owner; I did not tell him the owner's name—in consequence of information I went there six or eight days afterwards, and the lead was every bit gone, the water closet pipes pulled down from the second floor to the bottom, and every thing was taken away—the lead across the roof from the back to the front, what is called the flushing, was gone, and also a considerable quantity of the lead on the roof, and the rest of it was turned up ready to move away—I also missed the copper from the kitchen, and the range, the tank, and the lead pipes connecting it—a lock was taken off, and I believe the doors would have gone in a day or two—the damage done was not less than 100l.—they tore the place to pieces.
Perry. Q. Did not I say that the kitchen was as dark as a grave, and was of no use, and request it to be cleared? A. You said that you wanted to put your machinery there; I said that the back part had been excavated—if it was necessary to take anything away to make any alterations for your business, that is one thing, but you were not to steal anything—neither of these three bills (produced by Perry) is due; the first is not due till 28th January—I had borrowed 500l. on the lease formerly—I did not tell you that I had 100l. borrowed on the house then, but 100l. was owing—when I went to the premises on the 7th or 8th, I saw some carpenters boarding up the place where the iron safe had been taken from the wall—the only fixtures put up were two desks put there as a blind—there was something of a counter brought in in the morning, and taken out before the evening—I saw the painters doing something to the front, but it was all deception—I ordered them to leave off work—I did not authorize the prisoner to do so, that I might get the key.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Did he not ask to look at the house at all? A. No; that did not excite my suspicion—he did not ask to see what covenants were in the lease—there is no pretence for saying that the premises were being altered in order to be prepared for printing, or any business—I would not give 30s. for the desks that were put in—the articles belong to the landlord—I make a claim to the lead on the roof, because I am responsible to the landlord to make it good—I have no interest in the house beyond the usual covenants—the tenant's fixtures are mine—all these things would be given up to the landlord at the end of the term—the pipes of the water-closet were put on by the landlord; not by me.
MR. SLEIGH on behalf of Browning, suggested that there was no larceny at, the property being all made over to Perry; the owner had so parted with them that he could make no complaint until the lease had expired. MR. METCALFE referred to "Peel's Act," and contended that Perry could have no interest in the lease at all if he had endeavoured to obtain such by fraud. THE COURT considered that the case must proceed; but would take a note of the objection.
GEORGE HENRY MARTIN . I live at 49, Skinner-street, Snow-hill, and am an auctioneer—No. 5, Farringdon-street was put into my hands in August, and remained so till 20th November, when Browning called on me and said that he had been sent by a gentleman sitting in his chaise, to make enquiries about the terms of the house—I asked who the gentleman was—he said Mr. Perry of 12, Milbank-street, Westminster, a wholesale stationer and printer—I gave him the terms and he went away—he returned on the same day, and told me that Mr. Perry had looked the house over, and he would call on Monday to make me an offer—Browning called on the Monday, and made me an offer on behalf of Perry, in consequence of which I communicated with Mr. Robinson, who met Perry at my place on the following day, the 23d—Browning came again in the morning—he wanted to have an answer because they were about other premises, and I promised him an answer about the middle of the day—I wrote to Mr. Robinson—he came on the Tuesday morning to see if I had got an answer from the landlord—Mr. Robinson had not then arrived—he called again a second time, and Mr. Robinson was there—he then went away and sent Perry—I was present when the agreement was drawn up—I had occasion to go into the other office, and Mr. Robinson told me there was no occasion to go about the reference, he was quite satisfied with Perry—I drew up a temporary agreement by Mr. Robinson's request, so that they might be bound to the
bargain by Thursday, as Mr. Robinson did not wish the matter to stand open till Thursday without a written agreement—that memorandum is here—in Mr. Robinson's presence the agreement was concluded—I saw the state of the premises before they were let in—I did not go outside the top of the house, but the inside was correct—I saw the safe and the mahogany doors—I went some time afterwards, and found that they had all been removed—the lead at the top of the house had been loosened—some was taken away and the rest left ready to be taken—the flushings were gone, and the water-closet pipes.
Perry. Q. Was it a week before I took possession that you went over the house? A. I think it was within a few days—there was a kitchen range—I cannot say that I noticed a copper, but I believe there was one—I did not see that any lead was gone, because I only stood on top of the ladder and looked out; but I saw that it was cut, and saw that the flushing had been removed—water had come through a good space in the ceiling, which was very wet—I will not swear that the lead flat was touched—I heard most all of the conversation between you and Mr. Robinson—I know that a conversation took place relative to your making alterations; I do not recollect the exact words—there was some conversation about the front being cut into by the late tenant, and you asked what had become of the plate glass which had been removed to make way for the door—a perfect door was put in the middle, and the glass was taken away—I saw Browning after I had been over the premises with Mr. Robinson—he came to see if I had any message for you some days after possession had been given—that was the day that Browning was given into custody in the afternoon, as I understand—I had some conversation with Browning respecting the alterations and repairs—the shop ceiling was, certainly, in tenantable repair when you took possession—the water had been through a portion of one side, but the ceiling was not almost coming down.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did Browning tell you that Perry had told him that he was going to make extensive alterations and repairs? A. He did: that was when he called without Perry; he said, "The alterations are going on,"
MR. METCALFE. Q. Did Browning say anything to you about an iron safe? A. Yes; I said, "It is a strange way of making alterations to pull out an iron safe and to take the lead off the top of the house"—he said that Perry was going to have a new iron safe put into one of the upper rooms; that he had sold the old iron safe at old iron price to the person that the new safe was coming from; he did not say who it was—he said also, "There is going to be entire new lead on the house, and I will show you the specification, if you wish to see it"—I hinted that it did not require new lead, an that a builder going to put on new lead would not take the old until he had got the new ready to put on.
MR. SLEIGH to T. ROBINSON. Q. Had you any conversation with Perry when Browning was present? A. I never saw Browning at all; the conversations were with Perry alone.
STEPHEN FLEXON . I am a builder of 12, Brazier's-buildings, Farringdon-street—I remember the prisoners coming into 5, Farringdon-street—I had some pictures to dispose of, and Perry wanted to know what I wanted for them—I asked him 12l.—he said that he would give me an acceptance at a month for them—I said I would not unless he gave me ready cash—he asked me to come to the shop, No. 5, to take the dimensions of some shelving which he required for his business; it was to be strong to hold type, and there
were to be brackets at every three feet—I gave him a price for them; he reckoned it up, and said, "If I give you an acceptance for the whole, that will be so much money"—I asked him for a reference, and he referred me to a solicitor named Spicer—I ultimately declined the job—on 29th or 30th November I saw a van load of fixtures taken away from the house, partitions, mahogany doors with plate glass, and an iron safe—that was four or five days after they took possession—on 5th December I was passing No. 5, and saw a truck at the door, and Browning bringing out a piece of lead—about half a hundredweight was put on the truck, and he went in again for a second piece; that was a large piece also—the men turned the barrow, and I followed them up Snow-hill to St. John-street, Mr. Farmiloe's; Browning walked on one side, and I on the other—Browning went in first, and took a piece of lead in, and came out and fetched a second—I called a policeman's attention to it—I saw Browning take all the lead from the truck into Mr. Farmiloe's—it came from the ridge of the roof—I saw the kitchen range and the copper ready to go away on the truck on the Saturday after they took possession, but saw nobody—I saw Perry several times when the things were removed; he was on the premises at the time—the safe was worth 15l. and the mahogany doors 25l.; the hinges of the doors would cost 4 guineas—Perry asked me what I would give for the doors; I said that they were of no use to me; they were worth 20l. to anybody that wanted them, but I would not give 5l. for them—I have gone over the house, and in my judgement it would take 150l. to put it in the same state as it was before—I have been on the roof; the flushings are gone, and the ridges in the gutter; the water comes through; I had to cut a hole in the ceiling to let the loose water through—the lead was all taken from the roof except one small piece, which was cut round ready to be removed; all the pipes belonging to the closet were gone—I gave information at the station-house two days after they took possession.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Was that the first time you saw Browning? A. Yes; all the other conversations were with Perry.
Perry. Q. Did you call on me when I had got possession? A. No; Mr. Martin referred me to you, and I believe I asked you if you required the fixtures—I only called on you once—I out the front in two for the tenant—I did not offer to change with you for the glass doors; you offered them to me for 7l., and I said "No"—I offered you nothing for them; they were of no use to me—I never offered to allow you 6l. for them—they have never been shifted to my knowledge.
MR. METCALFE. Q. When did you first see Browning at the premises? A. Three or four days after; I saw him frequently there, going in and out.
HENRY BAKER . I live at 8, Braziers-buildings. On 25th November, I was keeping possession of 5, Farringdon-street—I remained there till 6th December, after Perry took possession—Mr. Robinson gave Perry the key in my presence—Browning was there previously; he was awaiting Perry's return from Mr. Martin's—he left a few minutes after Mr. Robinson—Mr. Robinson came with Perry, and gave up possession, and five minutes afterwards, three men came and took possession of the house—Browning was generally there—he gave me notice to leave, as they wished to make alterations—I remained until the 6th, because I had a difficulty in getting apartments—they took possession on Thursday, and on Saturday they took the high water service off, and we were obliged to go to the cellar for water—we found the door nailed up—on the Monday, I found the door had been, cut and defaced to get it open, and I missed the copper and the range—we went to pour some water down the water-closet, and it came out on the
stairs; by that we found out that the pipes were gone—on the Saturday previous to this, the prisoners and Booth's foreman went to the top of the house, and as they came down, Browning tapped at the door, and told my wife that she must not be surprised if it came on to rain, as the rain would come into her apartment—I did not see that they brought anything with them—the partitions and folding-doors were removed in Fielding's van—the prisoners were present when they were taken down—I saw nothing brought into the house; only a couple of ladders, some scaffolding boards, and two desks—one man was putting the desks up, and another was white-washing the ceiling—I saw no printing machinery.
Cross-examined. Q. Were there carpenters and bricklayers there at any time? A. There was one carpenter, the whitewasher, and Mr. Booth's foreman, who did nothing but remove the fixtures.
Perry. Q. I believe you lived in the house ten days afterwards? A. It might be—you pressed me to go out on three or four occasions, and Mr. Booth and Mr. Browning also; in fact, we were given notice once or twice a day—there was a copper and a range when you took possession—I saw them taken away, and also a tank—I call the man Mr. Browning's foreman, because he seemed to do no work; in fact, I thought he was a friend of your's at the time—I have never seen him since.
ROBERT BOOTH . I am a carpenter and fixture-dealer, at 40, London-road—I first saw Perry on 28th November; he called on me and bargained with me for two desks, price three guineas—they were sent to 5, Farringdon-street—I went there and saw him—he showed me a small partitioning, and said he was going to make extensive alterations there, and asked me what I would allow him for the partitioning—there were some mahogany doors belonging to it—I offered him 5l. 10s. for the whole, which he agreed to take—he made me out an account, and they were removed to my place—a few days afterwards, he showed me an iron safe, which, he said, was of no use to him, and said he would allow me 3l. in the account for it—I said that I had no objection to that, but I would not give 3l. in money for it—it was taken to my place—I repaired the walls, washed, stopped, and whited the ceilings, fixed up two desks, and made good some scrambling under the stairs—my foreman was not there—I had a carpenter doing the repairs—no one was instructed to go on the roof to my knowledge—I saw Browning there, but Perry was the man who I did business with.
Perry. Q. When you went over the house to see the repairs, did you see a copper, a kitchen range, and a cistern. A. No; I only looked after my own business—the partition had been altered several times, and three parts of it was deficient—the iron chest was an old-fashioned one, and would be of no consequence in these days—two of the iron partitions were taken out of it, and the key of the door was broken, and one key was lost—it was cast-iron—my bill came to 10l. 6s. 9 1/2 d.—the partitioning and glass doors which I took down, I should be most glad to reinstate for 8l.—the gentleman has got the hinges, but that is part of what I would reinstate for 8l.—Browning stated that he had taken the first floor of you, and asked me to give him an estimate for making a sash door, and one or two other alterations on the first floor—you did not ask me to give you an estimate for fixing the new water-closet—something was said about moving the water-closet to the leads at the back of the house—there was a labouring man working for you during the time you were there—if he was not there in the morning, he was there in the afternoon.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did I understand you correctly that you had no conversation with Browning? A. He said that he took the
premises of Perry—you have never asked me that before—this conversation was at the latter part of the time at 5, Farringdon-street—no one was present—my men were working below, and Browning took me upstairs—I paid 16s. to Perry—I was examined at the police-court—I did not make a memorandum of the conversation with Browning—I had nothing to do with putting up a new safe—that is out of my line.
MR. METCALFE. Q. You say there was a labouring man there, did you notice what he was doing? A. No; he was not one of my men, because we were working down below—when I was there first, he seemed to be sweeping up the place, and getting it in order, because there was lumber, such as bricks and mortar left about—it was the very last time I saw Browning on the premises, that he said he had taken them of Perry—a card was given to me, similar to this (produced)—"T. Browning & Co. Machine and Wholesale printers, 5, Farringdon-street"—I know nothing about who the "Co" was.
JURY. Q. What kind of lumber was there in the house? A. Dirt which had accumulated I should say belonging to the estate—there was a great deal of it from repairing the walls.
THOMAS JONES . I live at 11, Back-lane, Smithfield—I am a carman out of employment—On 7th December, about half-past 6, I saw a truck standing at the door of 5, Farringdon-street—I saw Browning and two boys putting a sack into it, which appeared to contain something heavy—finding that they had difficulty, I helped them, and then followed the truck to Mr. Farmiloe's, 118, St. John-street—the two boys brought the truck back empty, the sack having been taken inside—a day or two after-wards, I saw what appeared to be a piece of lead, brought out and put into the truck—as I saw something suspicious in it, I followed the truck to the same place.
WILLIAM WELDON (City policeman 270). I know the prisoners by sight—On 7th December, I was on duty in Farringdon-street, inside the house 5, about half-past 5 o'clock; I saw the prisoners with a sack on the floor, which appeared very heavy, about 1 cwt.—I watched them, and saw two boys come with a truck—Perry came to the door and opened it, and Browning dragged it out on to the pavement—a man in a white jacket assisted them—It appeared to contain lead from the weight and sound—the boys took it away in the truck, and the prisoners went back again—Perry only came to the door.
GEORGE FABMILOE . I am a lead and glass merchant of 118, St. John-street—I know the prisoners—I can speak confidently to Browning, and I believe I have seen Perry twice or three times—I first saw Perry about December 1st.—I cannot say what he brought on that occasion, but he brought me old lead on several occasions, ordinary old gutters—he may have brought me some pipe, but I do not remember it—he brought me thin sheet lead as if it had been used for roofing and flushing—he gave the name of Reeve, Endell-street—on Wednesday 8th December, Browning brought two gutters weighing 1 cwt.—I weighed it, sent into the counting-house, and I believe he took the money for it—I am the son of the head of the firm.
JAMES FARMILOE . I am a brother of the last witness—my father keeps the shop—I have seen both the prisoners there selling lead—I first remember seeing Perry there within the last two or three months—I saw some one on December 8th, and paid them money, but I cannot recognise either of the prisoners—whoever it was, gave the name of Green, Endell-street
but we do not take the name of the person bringing the lead, only of the person to whom it is said to belong—Perry had stated that the lead he sold, came from Green of Endell-street, and Browning the same—I believe the lead has been flushings, pipes, and sheet lead; but I have not been in the habit of seeing it myself—I saw it on 8th December, but not till after the person had left—I do not understand much about lead—I did not notice whether it had been recently cut.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Are you prepared to say positively that you heard Browning say that he had brought lead from Green in Endell-street? A. I cannot say.
COURT. Q. But you have said it. A. I have said that I have seen him with lead, and there were generally two of them, and one of them stated that he came from Green in Endell-street—I do not remember seeing them both together. It was always said that the lead came from Green of Endell-street, but whether they said so I do not know—if I said that Browning gave the name of Green, Endell-street, I made a mistake; but when they came that name was given—I do not mean that they came together with lead, but they came at various times separately, there was generally more than one person with the lead, and the name Green, Endell-street, was given.
Q. Are you in the counting-house? A. Yes; the person who brings the lead comes to the window, and I generally see them—I do not remember whether I saw him on the occasion to which. I have alluded, but he came into the office—it is not my province to see the lead—I have no particular department—I gave the cash to the person who gave the name of Green, Endell-street.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you find any entry on the 7th of Browning or anybody coming there, (handing a book to the witness.) A. This was on the evening of the 6th, it is entered here, "Reeve, Endell-street." There is no entry on the 7th, if lead was taken in after a certain hour, it would not be entered on the next day, but would go down on that day; this is merely an order book, and when paid they are crossed out.
COURT to THOMAS JONES. Q. What day of the week was it that you saw a truck? A. On the 7th and 8th, two days following, Tuesday and Wednesday.
GEORGE FREDERICK LEONARD MOLLINEAUX . I am a detective officer, I took Browning on 10th December, in the street, Farringdon-street—he said that Mr. Perry had given him the lead to sell—I asked him where Mr. Perry lived, he said he did not know, but he thought he was living some-where in Camberwell, but was waiting at the corner of Fleet-street for him—we went there and could not find him—I took Browning to the station, and found on him this agreement, (a duplicate of the other) he gave his address, 4, Lamb-street, Spitalfields—I found that he lived there, and in the back room I found a chair, a box, a deal table, two or three pieces of broken crockery; and in the next room a bed tied up, and a box, all the other part of the house was empty—I found these cards (The same as the former one), at 5, Farringdon-street, and one of them I found on Browning—on 15th December, I took Perry at 2, Camberwell-new-road—there was no printing establishment there; there were five old chairs, a table, and some broken crockery, and in the back parlour two dirty mattresses, a
dirty bedstead, and a box, all the other parts of the house were empty—he knew me—I told him that he must come with me—he asked me what for—I said for removing some mahogany doors, plate-glass, and other articles; he asked me going along, who authorized me to take him in custody—I said, Mr. Robinson; he said, "He shall pay for it"—going along the New-road he said, "I never authorized Browning to take any lead;" I had neither mentioned lead, or Browning—I have been to 12, Millbank-street, it is a very small private house, kept by a man who has absconded since the prisoners have been taken; there is one lodger, who is a respectable mechanic.
Perry. Q. Did you go over the house? A. Yes; I did not see a bell to it with the word "shop" on it—I believe there is one small bell—it is a small place,—I could put my arms on each side of the rooms, there is no shop at all—there are large gates, but they belong to the Charter gas works.
GEORGE FREDERICK ELY . I am clerk to Fielder, Johnson and Martin, solicitors of Duke-street, Grosvenor-square, they are solicitors to the landlord of 4 and 5, Endell-street—I know Perry as Smith, he took 4 and 5, Endell-street, on 21 at May last, and remained till September, when we took possession again.
EDWARD JOHN WOOD . I am a gas-fitter, and brass finisher—last October twelve months I was employed by Browning at 33, Lamb-street, Spitalfields-market—he gave this card, "Browning, potatoe, and general salesman"—I fitted up the place for him.
Perry's Defence. I bought the assignment of Mr. Robinson's interest in the house, subject to the usual covenants; it gave me power to make alterations suitable for my business, which came to 10l. odd, whereas the goods taken away only amount to 8l., and the painting 2l. 10s., which makes 4l. more laid out of the premises than was taken away—neither of the lead merchants prove that they saw me sell any lead, or move any—I considered that I was entitled to the fixtures, which the bills for 100l. were given for—I consider it nothing but a civil action, in fact he did not give me time, for he turned away the carpenters and jointers—it is impossible for him to tell what position the house would be put in when they bad done.
Browning received a good character.
PERRY was further charged with having been before convicted, to which he
PLEADED GUILTY— Six Years' Penal Servitude.
BROWNING— Confined One Year.
OLD COURT.—Thursday, January 6th, 1859.
PRESENT.—Mr. Baron MARTIN; Mr. Justice WILLES; Mr. Ald. COPE-LAND; Mr. Ald. ROSE; Mr. Ald. MACHI; MR. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Baron Martin, and the Second Jury.
MESSRS. GIFFARD and TALFOURD SALTER conducted the Prosecution.
ABRAHAM COHEN . I live at Canonbury-place, Islington. On Wednesday, 22d December, about half-past 3 o'clock, I was coming out of the London and Westminster bank; when I bad got as far as the corner of Bartholomew-lane, Mr. Higginson accosted me—I did not then know him—he asked me if I was Mr. Salomons, I told him "No"—I presumed he meant the Alderman
and I told him the Alderman was then in the London and West-minster bank, as I had just previously ascertained—I returned to the bank about half an-hour afterwards, and met Alderman Salomons coming out of the bank; I joined him, and we proceeded up Bartholomew-lane, towards the South Eastern Rail way, intending to go to the station—Mr. Higginson then accosted the Alderman, I should say within ten yards of the place where I had previously seen him—he spoke to the Alderman in a somewhat excited tone, with a gradually raised tone—thinking he might have business with the Alderman, I advanced a few paces, to leave them to transact their business—I did not hear what his first words were, but I soon heard what he was saying—I did not hear the first words that passed between them on either side—the first words I overheard Mr. Higginson say, in a somewhat raised tone, which was the cause of my overhearing them, were "What do you mean by delusions?"—I did not hear the answer clearly, as the Alderman spoke lower I presume—I naturally turned round, and saw Mr. Higginson in the act of striking the Alderman with a stick over the shoulder—it was an ordinary walking stick; he was very near the Alderman, and he struck in this manner (describing it); if I recollect right, he struck with both hands, but I am not certain; I then seized Mr. Higginson round the waist—a crowd presently collected—he did not say a word after I seized him, until we got to the station.
Prisoner. Q. Are you brother-in-law to Mr. Salomons? A. I am—when you first spoke to me on that afternoon, you spoke courteously and calmly—when I afterwards returned to the London and Westminster bank, I did not inform the Alderman that anyone had inquired for him; it made no impression on me—I did not know who it was that had spoken to me—I had no conversation whatever with the Alderman on the subject—it had not been arranged that I should go with the Alderman to the railway—I was frequently in the habit of going with him—I did not go with him in consequence of having seen you—I was not in the habit of going with him every day; it might be twice a-week—I could not have informed the Alderman who you were, for I did not know; I had scareely heard of you, more than what I had seen in the papers—we did not arrange any plan what to do if you spoke to me; on my oath no such arrangement was made; we did not arrange not to speak, or not to listen if we were spoken to; there was no arrangement whatever—I did not see the Alderman push you aside, or hear him say that it was untrue that he had said you were mad, and he was in a hurry to get to the railway—I heard no more than I have already stated—the Alderman and I left the bank together—I don't think we were arm-in-arm, I would not undertake to swear it, but I believe not—I should say I was not more than four or five yards from the Alderman when you accosted him—I think it is quite possible for the Alderman to have pushed you aside, and have said that, it was untrue that he had said you were mad, without my hearing it; I am not so quick of hearing, perhaps, as some per-sons, and I was not listening to your conversation—I was a little in advance; I don't know on which side the Alderman I might have been, I think it was a little to the left—I cannot say what he did with his right hand, as my back was towards him—I did not see the Alderman knock your hat off—I did not see your hat off, I did not notice it—I will not swear it was not off—the Alderman did not drop his railway wrapper that I am aware of—I will not swear he did not—I seized you round the waist, and I believe I held you pretty tight—I believe I seized you by the arms—I should say I did not put both hands to your throat and squeeze you against the wall; I think not—to the best of my impression I did not seize you by the throat, but I think I should have been perfectly justified if I had; I will not swear
I did not—I assailed you very strenuously, that was after you had struck the Alderman with the stick—I saw no more than the blow which you made at him with the stick—my impression now is, since you have spoken of it, that your hat was off at the time you struck the blow, but I will not undertake to swear one way or the other—I heard the Alderman state at Guildhall that I pinioned you against the wall—whether in holding your body I leant against the wall or not I cannot exactly state, I might naturally avail myself of the wall—I cannot undertake to swear that you said you did not wish to hurt the Alderman—I will not swear you did not say those words, I don't recollect hearing them—I released my hold of you because the Alderman was separated from you—I was not afraid of you personally—I did not hear you say that the Alderman might have been content to swindle the Atlantic Telegraph Company without imputing madness to you—I will not swear those words were not spoken—I don't think they were.
Q. On your oath, did I not say that the telegraph cable had been broken from the first, according to their own reports, and, therefore, no message could ever have been passed through it? A. I did not hear one word about the telegraph—I did not hear it mentioned, I swear that—after the assault a crowd collected—if such words were said loudly, I should say it would be impossible but that they could have been overheard by some one—I could not swear they were not said—I have had no conversation with any one as to what I should say here, I swear that—I should say I have not had one word with the Alderman about it—to the best of my knowledge your name has hardly been mentioned between us; on my oath, this inquiry has been very casually alluded to, nothing more than as to the sanity or wisdom of the aggressor—there was no agreement between us to impute insanity to you, nor any discussion as to the propriety of doing so—I do not believe you violently insane—I have not been examined by the attorney conducting this case, as to the nature of my evidence; on the day after your examination, the solicitor took a note of the evidence that I had to give—I have had no conversation with any one respecting the evidence I had to give—I had not said one word to the Alderman respecting my evidence.
Q. Have you had any conversation with any member of the Atlantic Telegraph Company on the subject? A. I do not know any of the members of the Atlantic Telegraph Company, nor any of the shareholders, as share-holders—of course I know the Alderman, I don't know him in his capacity of a shareholder—I have not had any communication or conversation with any shareholder in the Bank of England on this subject, I swear that—the Alderman did not say after the policeman arrived, that he had a great mind not to give you into custody—it was not at my request that he gave you in charge, I believe it was his own act—some few minutes elapsed before the policeman came—I am almost certain that no such occurrence took place—I swear to the best of my belief that it did not—I accompanied you to the police-station in Bow-church-lane—I heard the Alderman state the charge—I will not swear whether I did or did not hear you say that he was not telling the truth, I do not recollect it—I did not hear him reply that he was not then on his oath—I should think he could not have said so without my hearing him, but I did not pay particular attention to the words—I will not swear he did not say so—I don't remember hearing you request him to remember that he was "on the gentleman"—I do not recollect any such expression, and I think I should have recollected if you had said it—I heard the Alderman state that he did not wish you to be
detained—I did not hear him order the inspector to take your recognizance of 20l., and discharge you if you gave your address—I was not out of the police-station from the period that I went in, until I departed with the Alderman, I might have been at the door, I believe I was at the door, to request a policeman to get a cab—I heard the Alderman tell the inspector that he did not wish you to be detained, that he should be satisfied with your address and an undertaking to appear—I do not recollect any sum being named—there was a man in uniform, I presume he was the inspector—the Alderman requested him to be as expeditious as possible in the business; he was in a great hurry in order not to miss his train.
Q. Could any other person than a magistrate in the execution of his office have given such an order? A. The officers would naturally have some deference toward those immediately above them, and would perhaps give them a little more facility than to others—I cannot say whether that might be so or not—as to whether a common accuser could have given any such order, I know no more than any other individual, I know nothing at all on the subject—it did not strike me as monstrous or singular, that any roan should act as accuser and judge at the same time; I did not perceive that there was any judgment in the question, nothing of the kind; I was not dazzled with the magnificence of nay relative's position—I saw no gross violation of justice in the matter—I made no statement at the station—I don't think the Alderman discharged you on your recognizance, my impression is, that he did not act as a magistrate at all in the matter, but merely as any individual giving you in charge might do—I think anyone else but a magistrate might have acted in the same manner—I never witnessed such an occurrence before.
Q. Had you heard a magistrate or cadi so conducting himself in Russia, France, or Constantinople; would you not have known it to be a gross oppression, and glory in your privilege as an Englishman, to be exempt from it? A. I really cannot answer that question—I have never discussed the result of this case with any person whatever—I swear that—I did not consider as to whether the Alderman was over-matched by you, when I seized you—I considered his position was not consistent with a street row, or scuffle—I think I was perfectly authorized under the circumstances, in seizing you—the Alderman was entirely passive as far as I saw—you did not struggle with me, you were remarkably quiet—I did not assail you until I saw you in the act of striking the Alderman—It appeared to me to be a violent and ruffianly assault—the Alderman was not hurt.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. How was it that he was not hurt? A. It appeared to me that Mr. Higginson was too close to him, and that only that part of the stick nearest the handle must have descended on the shoulder.
JOHN MILLS . I live at Upton, near Stratford—I was in Bartholomew-lane, on 22d December—I observed two gentlemen approaching me—I did not know either of them at that time, but they proved to be Alderman Salomons, and Lieutenant Higginson—I did not hear anything said by either of them—I was about three or four yards from them—I noticed Lieutenant Higginson make a kind of snatch with his open hand, at the face of Alderman Salomons—The Alderman threw his head back, and then the defendant raised a stick which he bad in his hand—I think it was in his left hand—It appeared to be an ordinary walking stick—he brought it down as it appeared to me, on the Alderman's shoulder—I then noticed Mr. Cohen; he rushed forward, seized the lieutenant by the two shoulders, and pinioned him against the wall, and at that moment his hat fell off—I had
not noticed the Alderman give any provocation—I then advanced, but did not touch him myself—I heard him say that he was Lieutenant Higginson, and that his object was to bring his case before the public; that he intentionally assaulted the Alderman and pulled his nose—he then said to the Alderman "You have treated me very ill, you know you have—I have assaulted you purposely—I wish to be taken into custody"—some few minutes after, a policeman came up and he was given into custody—I went to the station, and I heard him make a similar statement there; that he had intentionally assaulted the Alderman—the Alderman expressed him-self extremely desirous of getting home; he had, as he said, a dinner party, and his words were, "I do not wish the defendant to be inconvenienced and therefore I hope" or "wish he may be discharged on his own recognisance"—I don't recollect the defendant making any observation to that—I have no doubt that he was discharged on his own recognisance, bat I left before the form was completed.
Prisoner. Q. Where did you first see the Alderman and I on the day in question? A. Very nearly opposite the Auction mart—I was coming from the Exchange towards the London and Westminster bank, and I saw the Alderman and you approaching me—I did not witness your first meeting—my impression was, that you made the snatch at his face with your right band, but I should not like to say positively—I was in front of you on the pavement, three or four yards off—your hand was open decidedly—I then saw you raise the stick—your hat was on at that time—I am quite sure of that—I did not see the Alderman push you before that, nor do I believe he did—I think I should have seen if he had done so—I cannot say whether he had done so before I saw him—I saw no one but you and the Alderman when I first observed you—I did not see Mr. Cohen at the moment—if he had been alongside of you I must have seen him—I did not see him—I volunteered my evidence to the Alderman—I said that I had witnessed the assault—you did not see me walk down from the bank and join the crowd afterwards—there was no assemblage at the moment I saw you commit the assault, but immediately afterwards, when Mr. Cohen laid hold of you and pinioned you against the wall, then a crowd collected—I can't tell where Mr. Cohen came from—the first time I saw him was when he seized you by the shoulders—I think he held you by both your shoulders—I don't think he held you round the waist—your hat came off from Mr. Cohen's laying hold of you, that is my impression—he pressed you suddenly, I may say violently, against the wall of the Bank of England, and the jerk knocked your hat off—Mr. Cohen's hands were not on both sides of your neck, not that I saw—I should say that your stock was not torn—I did not observe it—I will not swear it was not—your dress was not at ail disarranged—I will not swear it was not, but I did not see that it was—I did not know Alderman Salomons when I met him—I called him Alderman Salomons after I heard who he was—I knew who he was when I tendered my evidence—I did not consider this a good opportunity of making his acquaintance—I swear that—will you allow me to explain the reason I volunteered my evidence; I happened to know Mr. Roy, the Alderman's solicitor, extremely well, and I was on my way there at the time I saw this assault, and as I saw Mr. Roy afterwards I told him what I had seen—I have had conversation since as to what took place on this occasion—I will tell you the nature of it if you think proper, but it will not be very complimentary to you—I expressed an opinion without a doubt that you were under delusions, and I am sorry to say I think so now—I have said that I
believed you were suffering under some delusion or other, and I was sorry to see so gentlemanlike a man as you labouring under delusion—I have never seen you before—I have read the accounts in the papers of your appearance before the Alderman—I cannot believe that a gentleman holding such a position as you do, would be guilty of such an assault on an unoffending gentleman, unless you were partially insane—your conduct at the Guildhall was very eccentric, and different from other persons—I think my grounds of belief quite sufficient, that you are labouring under a delusion; you are labouring under an imaginary grievance, therefore I think you are not sane—I have no other grounds for saying so than what I saw in the papers, and what took place on this occasion; but I think they are sufficient—I am a literary man, and connected with the press—I am connected with the Field Newspaper—I am not in any position in which the Alderman could be of the slightest benefit to me—I heard you say that you wished your case, as connected with the Atlantic Telegraph Cable, to be brought again before the public—you said that Alderman Salomons had treated you very ill—I understood you to mean in connexion with the Atlantic telegraph.
Q. Did I make use of these words, on your oath, that the Alderman might have been content to swindle the Atlantic Telegraph Company, without imputing to me madness? A. You never uttered any such words in my hearing—I did not hear you say that the Alderman ought to be ashamed of himself, or words to that effect—I heard you say to Mr. Cohen that you had no wish to hurt the Alderman—I accompanied you to the police-station—the Alderman said he did not wish to detain you; that he was in a hurry to get home; that it was not his wish to inconvenience you, he hoped that you would be discharged on your own recognisance—no sum was mentioned in my hearing—I swear that he did not, in my hearing, tell the inspector to take your recognisance in 20l.—I think if he had said so I must have heard it—I was not out of the office—I cannot swear he did not say it—I did not hear the Alderman say to Mr. Cohen that he had a great mind not to give you into custody—I never saw anybody act with greater forbearance in my life, than the Alderman did towards you—I did not see him acting at all as a judge—he directed the inspector to take the charge as soon as he could—he then said he did not wish to detain you; that he wished your recognisance to be taken, and that you should be discharged upon that being taken—I left before the form was completed, and don't know what the sum mentioned was—the inspector was not in the office when we first went in; he was sent for—I remember Mr. Cohen going out for a cab—I should not consider it a grievous oppression if I had been so treated—I should think it extremely kind to be discharged on my own recognisance—according to my impression the Alderman was not acting as a magistrate at all—if instead of ordering you to be discharged, he had ordered you into a cell, that would not have been so kind—I think if I had been the accuser instead of the Alderman, the inspector would have listened to the same suggestion from me—I attended at the Mansion-house next day—I sat on the bench beside Alderman Salomons—the Alderman sat on the bench beside Sir Robert Carden—the Alderman was sworn according to the Jewish form, he gave his evidence from the bench—I don't think he spoke several times confidentially to Sir Robert Carden during the examination—I say decidedly not, because I heard everything that he said—he said he placed himself in the hands of Sir Robert Carden for the case to be dealt with in the ordinary way—he did speak to Sir Robert Carden, but not confidentially
—I swear that—he did not say anything to him that I did not bear—I was too close not to hear everything that was said—I really don't know whether it is customary to have an accuser and a witness sitting on the bench with the judge; I have seldom attended a court—I think it is decent—if my lords had the witnesses for the prosecution sitting beside them I don't think it would be a gross violation of public decency, if they wished them to be there—you asked to be allowed to cross-examine the alderman—Sir Robert Carden said that as you wished the case to be sent to the Sessions he would not permit any cross-examination—you were not allowed to cross-examine, because you were out of order—Sir Robert Carden said that as you did not wish him to adjudicate upon the ease he should send it to the Sessions in accordance with your wish—there appeared no reason to me why you did not wish Sir Robert Carden to adjudicate; it was certainly not because he would not allow you to cross-examine the alderman; I should say that was not your objection—you did not express the objection on that ground openly before the whole court—you did not say that as you were not allowed to cross-examine the alderman you objected to the jurisdiction of the court—I swear that—you said you did not think you should have justice done you in that court; you gave no reason why—you did not state that it was because you were not allowed to cross-examine the alderman, because you would have been allowed to cross-examine had you allowed Sir Robert Carden to go into the case—you asked Sir Robert Carden if he was a shareholder in the Atlantic Telegraph Company, and he said he was not, and never should be, and never had been—he did not at first order you to enter into your own recognizance in 100l. to appear and take your trial—I swear that—he ordered you to enter into your own recognizance in 100l., and to find a surety for 50l.—Alderman Salomons did not interfere and propose that you should find the additional bondsman in 50l.—I swear that—I do not think anything was said about your keeping the peace; I will not swear it—I did not hear Alderman Salomons object to the case being sent to the Sessions as too trivial a case, and one that ought to be decided by the magistrate there—he did not say so openly in court; I swear that—I did not hear him say so, and I do not believe he did; he might have said it without my hearing it, I do not think he did.
Q. Had you ever heard of magistrates thus acting as accuser, advocate, and judge in their own case? A. I did not perceive that they acted in any such form; they did nothing of the sort that I witnessed—if a stipendiary magistrate had acted in the same way I think he would have acted very properly; I think a stipendiary magistrate would have done the same—I do not think there was any oppression in the case whatever.
DAVID SALOMONS , Esq., Alderman. On 22d December, I was walking in Bartholomew-lane—as I crossed from the London and Westminster Bank to the apex of the Bank in Bartholomew-lane, some one joined me, and it turned out to be the defendant—I did not at first perceive who it was—he addressed me, and asked whether I was Alderman Salomons—I said I was, and looking straight at him, I said, "Are you Lieut. Higginson," or "You are Lieut. Higginson?" interrogatively—he said, "Don't you know me?" I then said, "Indeed, I hardly recollected you," or some words to that effect—he then said, "You have said, "or" You say that I am a madman;" to which I answered, "No, I don't think I have; but I have said you are under delusions"—he then quickly said, "What do you mean by 'under delusions'"—to which I replied, "You must put your own construction upon it, "or some words to that effect—the words were hardly out of my mouth, when he rushed from
my side, and got in front of me, and I felt his hand in my face, just touching my nose—I convulsively raised my arm to ward off the attack, when he stepped back, and raised a stick violently, which just came on my shoulder, because, in the meantime, my brother-in-law who was close to me, rushed upon him and pinioned him—to the best of my recollection, I never did anything in the way of resenting a blow, or uttered a single word to him, except order an officer to be sent for—a crowd collected, and a gentleman named Milk, who I did not then know, came up to me, and told me who he was, and said he had witnessed the assault—after an interval of a minute or two, to allow an officer to come up, I gave the individual in charge, followed with the officer to the police-station, and gave Lieut. Higginson in charge, precisely in the same way as any other individual may have done—I think it right to state that my wife was expecting me home by the express train, and it was a most painful thing to me, fearing she might be alarmed if I was detained; my brother-in-law went to get a cab, and luckily, I did save the train.
Prisoner. Q. When I first addressed you; did I do so quietly and calmly? A. Quite so—my brother-in-law, Mr. Cohen, was with me at the time—I did not stand at the corner of the Bank some little time—I did not tell you that I was in a great hurry to go to the rail—I have mentioned what occurred when you addressed me—it all took place between the corner of Bartholomew-lane and the Bank-gate, which is probably not twenty yards—when we first met, you said to me, "Are you Alderman Salomons?" to which I answered, "Yes"—I then looked at you stedfastly, for I had never seen you, except the day at the police-court, and said, "Are you Lieut. Higginson?" or "You are Lieut. Higginson"—you said, "Don't you know me?" or "Sure you know me"—I said, "No, I do not recollect you"—you then asked me whether I had said you were a madman, or were mad; to which, of course, I said, in the most polite language I could, "No, I have not; but I have said you are under delusions"—you then asked me what I meant by "delusions," to which I said, "You must put your own interpretation upon it"—that was what took place; then you assaulted me—when you accosted me, I did not tell you that I was in a hurry, and could not stop—I never said one word of the kind—you joined me by the corner of the Bank of England, to the best of my recollection, and before we had got to the Bank-gate, which is not twenty yards, you assaulted me—there was not much time for conversation—we walked just as would allow the conversation which I now state, to occur—I do not think I said, when you first met me, that I could not stop, for I was in a hurry to get home to Mrs. Salomons; I may have said so, but if I am bound to swear, I say I did not—I will swear I did not say so—I have not said that you made use of any violent expression—remember one thing, that I am not only on my oath as a man, but as a Magistrate—I know what is due from a Magistrate, and I am very scrupulous what I swear to—you did not make use of any violent expression—I was on the side nearest the Bank of England, the right-hand side—Mr. Cohen was on the outside—I should say I was in the middle, between you, when you joined me, you were inside—I am pretty sure that was so.
Q. Did I ask you, why, being an admitted shareholder in the Atlantic Telegraph Company, you had adjudicated in your own case at Guildhall; and, on the following day, had selected Alderman Rose to sit with you, he likewise being a shareholder in the company? A. I think, after a crowd collected, you did say something about the Atlantic Telegraph Company, but what it was I cannot recollect; my mind was too much occupied at that time—it
was addressed to the crowd—I cannot say what it was—I don't think you said that my dishonestly selecting Alderman Rose to sit with me was a disgrace to the judicial integrity of the City Magistracy; but you may have said so, for I really took no notice—you may or may not have said so; but, if you did, it was not true.
Q. Did I ask you why, in your address to the Greenwich electors, because I denounced the Atlantic Telegraph as a swindle, you had said I was a madman. A. To the best of my recollection, not one single word passed between me and yourself till we got down to the police-station—I swear I did not hear that said—I dare say if it bad been said I should have heard it—you may have said that the fact of the cable having broken three times whilst being laid down on the last occasion, was reported by the Atlantic company themselves, as you were ready to show by their report—I know you have said so—I did not hear it—you said something to the crowd—my mind was far too much occupied with the outrage that had been committed upon me, and the anxiety of my family, to attend to what you might have addressed to the crowd—if I did recollect it I should say it undoubtedly, but I do not recollect it.
Q. Did I ask you to stop and answer me, stepping before you, and did you push me aside saying you were in a hurry to get to the train? A. I never touched you to my knowledge, most distinctly, on my oath; I say most distinctly and decidedly, no—you did not ask me to stop—I thought until to-day that Mr. Cohen was by my side at the time, but it appears from what he has said, that thinking we had some private business, he went a little aside—we came out of the bank together, not arm in arm, he was close to my side—I was in a very great hurry to get to the rail, that there is no doubt about—I have not had any conversation with Mr. Cohen, or any other witness respecting this matter—I saw Mr. Cohen last night at his father's, and I never mentioned your name to him—I met him at 10 o'clock this morning at the Old Bailey, but I never mentioned your name to him—on my oath I have never discussed this matter with Mr. Cohen, nor in my family; I never even told my wife until I gave her the newspaper—I never discussed this matter with Mr. Cohen; we never discuss matters that are to be gone into in a court of justice—you don't suppose I crammed him—I have had no communication on the subject with the Atlantic Telegraph Company or any of its officers, except speaking to Mr. Freshfield's partner, Mr. Newman, on the day when he was a witness; I said that you had got some very strange delusions on the subject, or something of that sort—I have not sworn that you attempted to pull my nose—I said that I felt your hand just touching my nose, and I convulsively threw my arm up to defend it; you know best what you attempted—I will take back the word "convulsively," if you like—I threw up my left arm suddenly, or violently—it did not touch you, only your arm—I dare say my arm came in contact with yours, and threw it up—it did not knock your hat off—I was not in a striking attitude—I was astonished at the attack, and as any other man would, taken suddenly, I threw up my arm, seeing your arm coming across—I do not know whether I touched your arm or not, for you went back so quickly with the stick—on my oath I had not touched you at all before that, as we walked together—I am quite clear as to that—I did not let my railway wrapper fall to my knowledge; if you say it was on the ground, I will admit that it was, but to my knowledge it was not, I think I kept it on my arm all the time; I should say it did not fall, because if it had fallen it would have been dirty—if I am bound to swear, I will swear it did not fall—
I think it was on my left arm—to the best of my knowledge Mr. Cohen pinioned you—I saw him assault you—I believe he threw himself round you so as to pinion you entirely, and hold you against the bank—I consider he did me a great service, for he saved a scuffle, which I should have lamented exceedingly—I think he threw himself round you, so as to pinion your arms—his object no doubt, was to prevent your using your arms—I think he put his arms round your body and your arms, grasping you within his arms—he had not hold of you by the throat, most distinctly not—I did not see your hat off, but it may have been—I really cannot say—I was close to you, as close as I am to the gentleman in the jury-box—if I am bound to swear, I should say your hat was on; but I have heard a gentleman say it was off—to the best of my knowledge it was not off at all—I swear that that is my impression—I think some words passed between you and Mr. Cohen when he seized you, but I do not remember what they were—I heard you complain of his holding you—you said he had no business to do so; that he was not a constable, or something to that effect—you did not say he was choking you—I think you said that no constable could take you, because he had not seen the assault—you also addressed the crowd, something about the telegraph, which I do not remember—I do not recollect your saying anything about not wishing to hurt me—I will not swear you did not my so—I doubt whether it could be ten or sixteen yards from where you first met me, to where the scramble took place—to the best of my recollection you joined me at the corner of Bartholomew-lane, and the scuffle took place long before we got to the Bank-gate—it could not be more than ten or fifteen yards—I cannot speak within five yards—Mr. Mills came up when the crowd collected; he was one of the crowd—we had not got to the gate of the Rotunda before he came up; it was very near it, some few yards from it—he addressed me after the scuffle as one who had seen the assault—I did not see anybody present when the scuffle commenced, but Mr. Cohen, you, and myself; but I was engaged talking to you—I thought Mr. Cohen was by my side, but it appears he was not—you have heard what he has stated, his evidence is better than mine; he can speak about his own acts, which I cannot do—I did not hear you throughout make use of any violent language, and nothing took place as to words, except what I have sworn—you were eool at first; when you spoke to me, you were a little more warm, but nothing to warn me of any attack—I did not see you assault Mr. Cohen in any way; if you had done so, I could not have helped seeing it, at least I think so—I was not at any time so far off, as not to see and hear what was doing—I have heard Mr. Cohen examined to-day—he is one of the most truthful men in the kingdom; I am quite sure that whatever he says is true, therefore if he differs from me, you have the advantage of it—I did not hear you ask Mr. Cohen to take his hand off your throat, and say you could not breathe; he is too much of a man to do anything of the sort—if you had said so, I certainly should have heard it, nor should I have allowed him to assault you in any way—I did not know Mr. Mills—he addressed me as a stranger—I have not since had any conversation with him as to what he was to say here; not upon any occasion or in any place—the attorney for the prosecution has not examined me as to what I was going to say to-day—I do not think that I desired a working man in plain clothes to take you into custody, prior to the constable coming up; I may have done so; I should say not—I ordered a constable to be sent for—the man did not reply that it served me right, and he would not do it—when the policeman arrived, I gave you
into his charge—I never said that I had a great mind not to give you into custody, I should say decidedly not, but my anxiety was so great to avoid alarm, and to get down to the country, that I will not swear such a thing may not have been said, in case a policeman could not be found; but I don't think it did take place—I say distinctly and decidedly that I did not say so after the constable arrived—I wished to avoid, if I could, going down to the police-station to make the charge, on account of my anxiety to save the train, but the policeman said it was necessary, and therefore at the hazard of losing my train I went to make the charge at the station—I have received three letters from you, to which I sent three answers—I have your last letter, I cannot find the other two (The prisoner handed in copies of the letters)—this is the third letter (produced)—I received two previously—(at the prisoner's request the letter was read dated 10th November 1858)—I sent an answer to that letter, of which this is a copy—(this was read, and also one from the prisoner, dated Portsmouth, 19th October, 1858, and Mr. Alderman Salomons' reply, dated October 23,)—I also sent an answer through Mr. Gardiner my secretary to the other letter.
H. D. GARDINER. I wrote a copy of a letter, and posted it myself addressed to the defendant, according to the address contained in his letter.
REUBEN BEDDINGHAM . I served a notice to produce on the defendant last evening—(This was a notice to produce the Alderman's reply to the defendant's letter of 10th November—It was not produced, the prisoner stating he had never received it—a copy of it was put in and read—Mr. Baron Martin stated that this correspondence had no bearing whatever on the ease.
Prisoner to MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS. Q. Recurring to our happy meeting, did I inquire why you had denied to the Greenwich electors that you had apologized for your misconduct as a Magistrate in open court? A. I do not quite see what answer I can give to that—I had never seen you from the day you were in my court until the day you assaulted me—I never did apologize to you in open court at any time—I swear that—I know perfectly well what you allude to—what I did was this: from your violence I was obliged out of respect to my court to order you out, and when you came next day I expressed the natural regret that any gentleman or any Magistrate would feel at being obliged to do so to a person of your rank—I thought that was due to myself, and that it might soothe your mind also—I did not apologize to you in open court for my conduct to you on the preceding day, but I expressed in the most courteous language I could, the regret that I felt—and which I feel now at being here to-day, very strongly indeed, for I am very sorry to be here—not as an apology but with a view to soothe your mind, as well as to express what I felt at being obliged to adopt the unusual practice of ordering an applicant to be led out of court—(the prisoner here read an extract from a newspaper, of an observation addressed by the Alderman to the defendant at the police-court, containing the words, "If I was not quite so forbearing to you yesterday as I might have been, I regret it,")—I have no doubt whatever that that is a true report—that is not an apology—seeing you to be a lieutenant in the Navy, and not being aware of the peculiarities which you exhibited afterwards, I wished as far as possible to treat you just as ray equal, and I used the strongest language I could to express the extreme pain and regret I felt at being obliged by your own conduct to order you out of the court—I thought it would be an amiable thing on my part, both to relieve myself and to make you as comfortable as I could—(The prisoner again read the extract)—I did regret it—I regret it even now—there is nothing in
your letters manifesting any hostile spirit on your part—I think the letters are courteous, and I think you are always courteous when you are not contradicted—I have never made use of any language towards you that could be construed as offensive—I may have been asked about your notions of the cable, and I may have said off-hand "He is a madman"—I did not mean to say you were a madman—I have not promulgated that you were—I may have casually said with regard to your opinions, or fancier, or views of the Atlantic Telegraph Company, "Well, he is mad," or, "He is mad upon it," or, "He is a madman," in that way, but not with a view to stigmatize you—I did not mean to say that you were a madman de facto—it was not solely in compliance with Mr. Cohen's request that I gave you in charge to the police constable—the constable could not have heard me say so—I followed you to the police-station—I was very impatient that they should take the charge quickly, as I was most painfully anxious to get away by the 4.30 train, which was the only train I could get home by—I did net hear you say that you were anxious to get home—I do not know that the Bank of England has refused to pay you 200l. for work and labour done for them in an invention supplied, on account of your hostility to the Atlantic Telegraph Company—I never heard of it till now.
Q. Do you know that the Atlantic Telegraph Company suppressed my work "The Ocean, its depths, and phenomena" because it revealed the impossibility and the fraud of the undertaking? A. No; I do not—I could not make out what grievance you had with the Telegraph Company, except what I heard incidentally that it was something about some work which you say they suppressed—I think I heard that from Mr. Freshfield's partner, Mr. Newman—I say as I have said before, that I have not had any communication with the Bank of England or the Atlantic Telegraph Company upon this subject, except incidentally some conversation with Mr. Newman on the day of this assault—I know nothing about whether your pamphlet was suppressed by the company, or whether they deprived you of the results of your literary labours as well as deprived you of your invention without compensation—the only thing by which I knew of your having anything to do with the Atlantic Telegraph Company was from a pamphlet which you sent me and which I read, containing letters to them—I know nothing about any work being suppressed—I do not know that they adopted your invention of laying it down without paying for it—I should doubt it very much—I do not know that in 1851 you registered the machinery, with the exception of the pulleys, which was used on board the Agamemnon, except from your letters in the pamphlet which I read—I was not an active member of the company; I am a passive one—I have only sunk my money, and I am very glad to have taken part in that invention—I have no knowledge that your invention was used without compensation—I have not the smallest knowledge on the subject, of any kind.
Q. In fact, has not the whole power of the Atlantic Telegraph Company been used through you, as a magistrate, upon several occasions, to crush me and my plans? A. So far from it, I beg to say, that in this instance, although summonses are always heard in private, this being a summons against a public company, we took it out of the usual course; for I thought you had some wrong that might be remedied—Mr. Martin, the clerk of the court apprised mo before I came in, of the nature of your application, so far as this; that it was an application to which the Atlantic Telegraph Company was a party, and I then told him as I told you, that I could
not bear the case—Alderman Rose came in on the following day as a spectator, and sat next to me—he did not say that I was to be supported; I swear that—I believe Alderman Rose is a shareholder in the Atlantic Telegraph Company—I did not know it then—I know it now, for he was at the company the other day as a shareholder, and he has told me he was a shareholder—the newspapers say that he moved a resolution the other day.
Q. Then both you and he, being shareholders in the Atlantic Telegraph Company, sat at Guildhall to adjudicate on your own case? A. No; that is not so at all; do not couple Alderman Rose with me—he came in as a spectator, and sat upon the bench, as he might sit upon the bench now as a commissioner of this court; that is all—when you were very violent Alderman Rose did interfere, but I put him down, I am very jealous of my brother Magistrates interfering when I am sitting—I don't want their assistance—I did not at the Bow-lane station, exercising my jurisdiction as a magistrate, order the inspector to take your own recognisance of 20l., and discharge you on giving your address—I did what any prosecutor would do, either suggested that he should take bail, or not, believing your word could be taken, to appear—I was most anxious to get away, and suggested that you should be let out on your own recognisance, and I think that was a kindness for which you ought to thank me, and not find fault with—without that interference, if I had been a common accuser, they would not have let you go without your finding bail—the moment I had made the charge I left—I don't know what was done between you and the inspector; I was too happy to get into a Hansom cab and gallop off to save my train—I did not order the inspector to take your recognisance in 20l.; I swear that—I suggested that he might let you go on your own recognisance to appear next day.
Q. Was I prevented by Sir Robert Carden from cross-examining you at the Mansion-house? A. I think Sir Robert Carden suggested, when he had heard my statement, that as the case must go elsewhere, and he had heard sufficient to enable it to be sent there, he must stop further cross-examination—he is responsible for his own acts—I have nothing whatever to do with it; I was there like any other complainant—I should say the police-inspector would have released you upon a similar order from any private individual—the police are quite independent of the magistracy, and are regulated by their own rules—I presume he acted upon his own impulse, and not from any order of mine, to the best of my knowledge—I did not ask you, when you said you had been assaulted, why you did not give Mr. Cohen into custody; I never heard such words used—I cannot say whether you said that the whole affair was far too trivial and contemptible to be made the subject of a charge on either side; you may have said it; I do not know whether you did or not—I was at the Mansion-house next day—I knew you had been discharged on your own recognisance—I inquired; I cannot recollect of whom I did so; it was some of the Mansion-house people—I should say I did not know before that—I wished to do, and I believe I only did do, what any person would have done in the matter—I did not act as a magistrate; I gave the inspector no order—when at the Mansion-house next day I sat on the bench, not by Sir Robert Carden's side—perhaps we were as close together as my lords are now—when I gave my evidence I was not close to him; I was on the dais.
Q. Was I prevented from cross-examining you upon your depositions in chief, because you were a magistrate? A. You did not cross-examine me;
but as to anything else, the magistrate before whom you were examined can answer the questions, not I—that was not the reason stated; the stated reason was this, that enough had been stated by me to enable you to go to the Sessions as you wished, and therefore no cross-examination was entered into—that was Sir Robert Carden's decision and statement—I think you requested that the case should be sent to the Sessions; I don't think it was on that account—I think it was in consequence of your wishing it sent to the Sessions that you did not cross-examine—you know best what your reason was for wishing it sent to the Sessions—I do not remember what you said—Sir Robert Garden then ordered you to enter into your own recognizance in 100l. to appear—I did not say anything upon that—upon my oath I did not propose that an additional bondsman of 50l. should be found; I am incapable of doing such a thing—with the exception of my testimony not one word passed between me and Sir Robert Carden, either at that time or since—I did not state to my attorney, he being on the other side of Sir Robert Carden, that an additional bondsman should be found; I swear that—I cannot tell you how the additional bondsman affair came forward—I presume Sir Robert Carden did not think of letting you go without taking some security for good behaviour—nothing was said by me about a bondsman in 50l. to keep the peace; I heard Sir Robert Carden say 100l., and one surety of 50l., which I thought very low—I do not know that it was to keep the peace; I daresay it was; I did not observe—I swear that the additional 50l. was not at my suggestion—it is usual to desire a man to enter into recognisance to keep the peace and then send him to be tried, or else it would not have been done—I never opened my lips to Sir Robert Carden on the subject either before, at the time, or since.
Q. Was I at that time actively opposing your return for Greenwich, by giving lectures upon the laying down of the Atlantic Telegraph cable, and your conduct to me at Guildhall? A. You were making yourself excessively ridiculous; you had a meeting there, and they all thought you mad—you tried three meetings afterwards, and nobody came to them.
Q. Upon your oath, did not you or your partisans send three wagon-loads of people from Deptford for the purpose of opposing my lectures? A. Upon my oath, to my knowledge, nothing of the kind was done; the universal opinion at Greenwich after two lectures was that you were a madman—I saw the lectures advertised, and felt quite sure that you would fail—I know the prison regulations for the treatment of prisoners in Newgate—I never Bent you to prison; I prevented your going there, or being locked up at all—if you went to prison, of course you were subject to prison regulations—I have not been to Woolwich since this assault; I have been unwell, and confined to my house for some little time—I know nothing about your son being refused admission to you in prison; I never heard of it till now—I heard you say you would not find bail, and you were consequently shut up, but I had nothing to do with that.
Q. Upon your oath have you not been advised and instigated to push this matter to the utmost, with a view of getting a verdict and judgment that should shut me up, and prevent my appearing for a time in the Atlantic Telegraph Company, and in your electioneering proceedings? A. As God is my witness I did as little as I possibly could for my own protection, and for the purpose of doing my duty, for the gross outrage committed upon me—my answer to your question is, I did not.
Q. Were you in any way afraid of me? A. I did not show much fear when you accosted me—I should be sorry to acknowledge myself afraid of you or
any other man, I have done you no wrong—I never saw or heard of you until you came into my court—I do not know that you have received two medals from the Humane Society for saving lives at the expense of your own.
Q. Had you been cheated out of your invention, had your literary work been suppressed without compensation, had you been ordered to be assaulted in open court, refused all explanation, and your prospects ruined by a false imputation of madness; in short, had you been oppressed as you know me to have been oppressed, I ask you, on your oath as an honest man, could you have borne it so patiently as I have done? A. If you apply that to me, I have done nothing of the kind—I have no doubt if I had suffered all you say I should have felt very irritated—I had not, previous to meeting you on the day in question, been told by Mr. Cohen that a gentleman wished to speak to me—I have, learnt since that you had asked one or two of my brother directors whether they were me—Mr. Cohen came back to the bank for me—he is a very late man, he does not come into the city till 4 o'clock—he very frequently goes with me to the rail—he had left the London and Westminster Bank—I am sure I cannot tell you what he came back for—he met me somewhere inside the Bank, I think in the passage—he did not say a word to me about you—I was in a great hurry, it had struck 4—he did not say that any person had spoken to him—he afterwards accompanied me to the police station, and he got a cab for me there—I think he volunteered to do so—I was not influenced by any advice of Mr. Cohen's to give you in charge.
The prisoner in his defence read a very long statement, in which he entered into a recital of his services in the navy, and the nature of several inventions he had perfected, as well as the alleged use of those inventions by the Atlantic Telegraph Company, from whom he asserted he had received great injustice; he then entered at great length into the circumstances contained in his cross-examination of the witnesses, commenting upon various portions, and contended that the first assault was committed by the Alderman, who pushed him when he accosted him.
GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. To enter into his own recognisance to keep the peace, and to appear and receive judgment when called upon.
MESSRS. SLEIGH and HOLDSWORTH conducted the Prosecution.
FREDERICK CARTER . I am a stonemason, and live in John-street, Mile-end-road On Tuesday evening, 21st December, I was in Mile-end-road, about 12 o'clock, and saw the prisoner and another person—they were intoxicated—the prisoner's friend was very much intoxicated—when I came up first, he was standing, leaning against the fence—he had been on the ground—the prisoner asked me if I would assist him with his friend—I said "No," but I did do so—I walked on, holding the prisoners friend by the arm—the prisoner then, accused me of picking his friend's pocket, and made a blow at me—I jumped into the road to avoid it; the prisoner ran a little way after me, but turned back to his friend, who was lying on the ground—I followed him, and when I came back, I saw the deceased, Mr. Williams, standing near the prisoner's friend—the prisoner then asked Mr. Williams to assist him with his friend, and Mr. Williams would not—I don't know what he said—I believe there were two or three words passed
between them—when Mr. Williams refused to assist the prisoner with his friend, the prisoner challenged Mr. Williams to go out in the road and fight—I can't say exactly what he said, but he asked him if he would fight, and the prisoner went out in the road—the prisoner came back, finding Mr. Williams would not follow him—Mr. Williams said he had better sense than to fight—that was the time the first scuffle took place—the prisoner struck Mr. Williams with his fist—he struck him three or four times about the head and shoulders, and they fell down together—Mr. Williams was the undermost—the prisoner then got up, and Mr. Williams did the same, and walked towards the road—the prisoner then pulled off two coats, and struck Mr. Williams again, and they fell down from the kerb into the road—the prisoner then struck Mr. Williams three or four times about the head and shoulders, and they fell down—I believe they did not close, but Mr. Williams fell on the stones, and the prisoner fell by the side of him—Mr. Williams did not get up—he was lifted up, and the men who lifted him up took him on the other side of the road—the prisoner pursued him, and was in the act of striking him again—Mr. Harris struck him with some stones in the road—the prisoner put his hands to the back of his head, and returned to his friend, who was drunk—assistance was procured; he was taken and set on the step of a door—from my observation of the deceased, he was perfectly sober.
Cross-examined by MR. CHAMBERS. Q. Was Mr. Harris walking with you? A. Yes; I was the first who was asked to assist the prisoner's friend—there was not a crowd looking on at the time I came up—there was no one—they were not noticing that there was a drunken man falling on the ground—there was nobody there when I went up but me and Harris—I did endeavour to assist the friend—I went about ten yards, more or less, before I was accused of attempting to pick his pocket—on the prisoner charging me with that, and making a blow at me, I ran into the road—I ran about twenty yards, or it might have been a little more, when I turned round, and saw that the prisoner had got back to his friend, and Harris was still standing by the friend—when I got close to them, I found several persons had then collected round them, and, amongst others, Mr. Williams—Harris stood nearer to them than I did, and he could see all that occurred—I did not hear the first words that occurred between Mr. Williams and the prisoner—the first words I heard were, the prisoner said, "Will you help me to take my friend"—Mr. Williams said he would not—it was after that that some words passed between them, which I did not hear—I am not aware that they were spoken in an angry tone—I cannot say that I heard Mr. Williams raising his voice, as if speaking angrily—after hearing a word or two, the next thing was a challenge from the prisoner to fight Mr. Williams—at that time Mr. Williams was on the pavement—the prisoner challenged Mr. Williams, and then he walked out in the road—before the challenge they were both on the pavement, and the friend was lying between the pavement and the chapel—I should say the friend was three or four feet from the prisoner when I heard those words pass—at that time there might have been as many as twenty people present—I cannot say that I heard the people who were there laughing and crying out—there were some laughing and some crying—they were not chaffing the drunken men—there was not so much of that as there might have been—some of them were chaffing and some hooting the prisoner—there were some persons sneering—there were some talking—some persons talk louder than others—when I heard the challenge to fight, the prisoner and Mr. Williams were
not far off from one another—the prisoner was on the pavement when he struck the first blow—I did not notice whether Mr. Williams had an umbrella with him—I did not notice whether Mr. Williams was upwards of six feet high—he was a powerful-built man—I do not know how high he was; he was a big man, that is all I know—when Mr. Williams was struck once, twice, or thrice, he did nothing to protect himself—if he had an umbrella, I did not see it—the prisoner struck him three or four blows, and then there was a fell—there was a scuffle immediately, and both fell on the pavement—I mean to say there was more than one fall—the leg was not broken by the fall on the pavement—I should think if the leg were broken by the fall on the pavement, Mr. Williams could not have got up and walked into the road—I did not know his leg was broken till he was over on the other side of the road, and I saw the blood—they fell once, and the prisoner proceeded to take off his coats, and struck again—he took off two coats after there had been one fall—the second striking was when they were between the pavement and the road—Harris was nearer than I was, and there were several persons between us, but I could see whether a man was on the ground or on the pavement—after the first fell Mr. Williams got up and was walking towards the kerb—he had not got off the kerb, and the prisoner struck him again—it was when Mr. Williams was being taken across the road that Harris took up stones and struck the prisoner at the back of the head—at that time Mr. Williams was not lying down; he was being taken across the road—he was not actually lying down—that I am certain of—I don't know whether Harris striking the prisoner with stones appeared to hurt him—he put both his hands to the back of his head and came back—they were not large stones, not granite: they were gravel—the prisoner, in consequence of that, returned to his friend.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. During the whole of this time, did you hear Mr. Williams make use of any offensive language, or attempt to resist, in any way, during the whole of the time? A. No, I did not.
JURY. Q. In what part of Mile End-road was this? A. It is not very wide there—it was near the rails of the Iron Chapel, on the left-hand side as you go towards Bow.
WILLIAM HARRIS . I live at 21, Regent-street, Mile-end—I was on that night with my friend Mr. Carter, going along the Mile-end-road—I observed the prisoner and some person with him—the prisoner was slightly intoxicated, and the other person very much so, and lying on the ground—the prisoner requested Mr. Carter to assist him with his friend a little way down the Mile-end-road, and Mr. Carter did so; and while he did so the prisoner accused Mr. Carter of picking his friend's pocket—with that Mr. Carter refused to have anything more to do with him—just about that time I saw Mr. Williams, the deceased; he was on the pavement, and when he came up close to them, the prisoner asked Mr. Williams if ho would assist him—Mr. Williams refused to do so, and they had a few words together which I can't recollect—I have been trying to recollect them since the last examination, but I cannot—the prisoner spoke and Mr. Williams—finding that Mr. Williams would not assist him with his friend, the prisoner challenged Mr. Williams to fight—he refused, and told him he had got too much good sense to fight—on that they had a few words, which I can't recollect, and the prisoner struck Mr. Williams with his clenched fist about the head and body—they had a scuffle together, and both fell—I did not see Mr. Williams strike, or attempt to strike any blow at the prisoner—he did not make use of any offensive language
or behave in any offensive way towards the prisoner: quite the reverse—when they fell, Mr. Williams was undermost—they fell down off the kerb to the road—I believe Mr. Williams was assisted across the road—I cannot call it two scuffles—the policeman was called, and the prisoner was given into custody—after the time when Mr. Williams and the prisoner fell together, the prisoner went back a yard or two, and while the prisoner was going to make another attack, I took up a few stones and struck him on the back of the head, which I believe prevented his doing so—assistance was procured, and Mr. Williams was conveyed across.
Cross-examined. Q. When you first saw the prisoner and his friend were there several persons who were watching them? A. Yes; I believe there were—I can't say whether they were chaffing the prisoner and his friend—I took very little notice—there was not a crowd—I can't say whether there were half a dozen persons—I did not stop hardly a second—I can't say how far Mr. Carter walked with the prisoner and his friend; it might be a dozen yards, or over or under; I can't say—there were other persons—I can't say whether they were boys or men—I did not hear them shouting or making a noise—I followed quietly behind Mr. Carter—when he let go the prisoner's friend, I believe the friend fell—the prisoner had his other arm—he went down with no violence—he went down as soon as Carter had let go his arm—you can't call it felling—he fell close to the rails of the Iron chapel—when Carter let him down, the prisoner made a blow at Carter, and Carter jumped into the road—he ran three or four yards—I can't say that he ran twenty yards—the prisoner ran into the road and then went back to his friend—he did not run far after Carter—I don't believe he ran a couple of yards in the road—he returned to his friend, and then I saw Mr. Williams was there—a large crowd had collected—some part of the time I was close to Mr. Williams—he and the prisoner were talking together when I returned from the road—I heard a few words, and there were others I did not hear—when the prisoner asked Mr. Williams to assist his friend, and he refused, I did not observe that Mr. Williams put his hand up to keep the prisoner off—the prisoner certainty had mud on his coat—before any blow had been struck I heard angry words on the prisoner's side—I did not hear Mr. Williams use angry words at all—there were words passed between them which I could not hear, or if I did hear them, I can't recollect them now—it was after that that the prisoner struck at Mr. Williams—Mr. Williams had an umbrella; I saw it in his hand, and under his arm—the blows which were struck were hard blows—the prisoner was partly tipsy; he had evidently been drinking—I can't say whether Mr. Williams was more than six feet high; I can't say his height—he was a stout, powerful man—after this there was what I should call a scuffle between them—I dare say I was a couple or three feet from them—at different times I was, perhaps, closer than that—I saw them both fall—they went down the sloping dirt, and fell on the kerb—Mr. Williams fell from off the kerb, and then I saw him lifted up and taken across the road, and it turned out afterwards that he had a broken leg—I I cant say whether it was at the time when some parties had lifted him up, that the prisoner appeared to be endeavouring to strike him again, or whether he was lying on the ground; but there were some parties round at the time—I took up the stones—they were not heavy stones, they were light gravel stones—I can't say whether there was chaffing in the crowd—there were some words, and I know after I had taken the stones it seemed to give some satisfaction to some of the bystanders—this was all soon over
—there is a flat pavement with flag-stones, and then a slope of dirt—they went down that slope, and then fell.
JURY. Q. Did you see the two parties fall twice? A. No—I don't recollect that they fell twice—they might have done it, but I state what I saw.
HENRY ROPER (Policeman, N 426). I was in the Mile-end-road about 12 o'clock, on the morning of 22d, December—I heard cries of "Police," and I ran to the place where I found the deceased—I then turned on my light, and ran towards where I heard the cry, found the prisoner on the north side of the Mile-end-road, with a drunken friend—I was informed he had assaulted a person who was on the other side of the road—I took the prisoner across to the south side of the road, where the deceased was sitting on the step of a door—he said, "I give that man in charge for injuring my leg"—I turned my light on the deceased, and saw blood was running from the bottom of his trousers—the prisoner did not make any reply—I took him to the station.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe you afterwards told the prisoner the leg was broken? A. Yes, that was after I returned from the Hospital—I told him it might cost the man his leg or his life—he said, "My God, I hope you do not say so."
EDMUND SIMMONDS . I am a book-binder, and reside at North Bow—I attended the inquest on the Coroner's inquisition—I was not examined, the Coroner said he would not encumber the concern with more evidence—I was passing the Mile-end-road that night, I came up just as the prisoner and Carter were conducting the man along—Carter let go the friend, and the prisoner made an attempt to strike him which he evaded by jumping into the road—the friend fell down in the mud from being totally helpless—the prisoner turned back and came towards his friend—Mr. Williams was standing on the pavement close to where the man was lying—the prisoner made some observation to Mr. Williams, which I did not hear, not being quite close to him, but immediately after he challenged Mr. Williams to fight, saying he was bigger than himself, and a heavier man than himself, and for that reason he should fight him—I think Mr. Williams made some remark to that, but in so low a tone, that I did not hear it—the prisoner repeatedly challenged Mr. Williams to fight—he threw off his light overcoat and threw it towards his friend, lying on the ground, and gave a challenge to Mr. Williams to fight—Mr. Williams then in an under tone, spoke very low and said, "You are a fool"—he challenged him again to come out in the road, which he refused to do, and he then struck him—some three or four more blows were struck without the slightest resistance being made on the part of Mr. Williams—the result was that they both fell together as near as I could see—I immediately endeavoured to get the assistance of the police—I did not witness any thing else that took place—I saw Mr. Williams assisted across the road.
Cross-examined. Q. Had Mr. Williams any umbrella in his hand? A. I am not positive on that point, but I am positive he made no resistance.
WILLIAM HENRY HILL . I am house-surgeon at the London Hospital. On the morning of the 22d, December the deceased was conveyed to the hospital, suffering from a compound dislocation of the principal bone of the ankle joint of the right leg, and the fracture of the small bones as well—he was under my care and Mr. Newth's from then till the Friday week, when
he died—the cause of death was the mortification of the limb, resulting from the injury.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe you performed an operation? A. Yes; cut off the end of the large bone, and then put the leg in splints—amputation was talked of, but it was not performed—in dislocation the soft parts are sometimes much lacerated, and sometimes not—in this case the soft parts were lacerated, but not very much—that gentleman was not a good subject for operation—there were no marks on the face.
The Prisoner received a very good character.
GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy
by the Jury on account of his character.— Confined Three Months.
NEW COURT.—Thursday, January 6th, 1859.
PRESENT—Mr. Justice WILLES; Sir GEORGE CARROLL, Knt; and Mr. Ald. MECHI.
Before Mr. Justice Willes and the Sixth Jury.
190. ALEXANDER KOCHANOWSKY (21), MYERS GOLDBERG (33), and JACOB GOLDWATER (43) , Feloniously engraving divers parts of certain plates, to represent 5 rouble notes of the Empire of Russia, without the authority of the said State; to which
KOCHANOWSKY PLEADED GUILTY .— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE and MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
The evidence of each witness was translated to the prisoners into German.
WILLIAM JOHN ROLL . My father carries on the business of an engraver at 17, Sun-street, Bishopsgate, and I assist him. On 19th October, between 5 and 6 in the evening, one of my men fetched me to see some one, and I found Goldwater in the shop—I had never seen him before—he said that he had got a gold plate which he wanted engraved with the Russian eagle and the Russian capitals, and wanted to know what I would do it for—I had some conversation with him, and he promised to call again—he called the next day, and asked for me—I was behind the shop, and did not see him come in—when I saw him, he said he called about the matter on which he called last night, and had brought the gentleman with him, who was outside—on that he left the shop, and brought in Kochanowsky, the person who was called the Baron—Goldwater said that they had come about the things about which he came last night, and Kochanowsky asked if we could show him some very small letters in type—I showed him some, but they did not suit him; they were not small enough—I was about twenty minutes showing him specimens, and a few specimens of plates and dies were shown to him, but nothing was settled—the same evening, between 8 and 9 o'clock, Goldwater called again with Goldberg, who he introduced as a Prussian—Goldberg asked me if I could keep a secret—I said, "Yes"—he said that he thought it was some bank-notes, but he did not know—after some little conversation, he said he would call next day, between 1 and 2, or when I was alone; when all the men had gone to dinner, and I could be seen by myself, and bring some person else with him, a Baron—the next morning, before they came, my lather and I made a communication to Superintendent Hamilton, and between 1 and 2 o'clock, when I was alone in the shop, Goldwater came—it was on 21st (Looking at a memorandum)—he asked me if I was alone—I
said "Yes," and he went out, and brought in the Baron and Goldberg—the Baron asked me, in the hearing of the other two, if I could keep a secret—he then took a pocket-book out of his pocket, and handed me this note (produced)—he said that he wanted two steel plates, one for the back, and the other for the front—they were to be done like the note—I told him I could do them—(I acted under the directions of the officer during the whole of the matter)—the Baron said that he did not mind how much money he paid, if it was 100l. or 250l.—he offered to make me a present of a hand-some gold watch, which he took out of his pocket—I told him that I must have a deposit, but he said that the note would do, and left it with me—nothing further of any importance passed—the same evening, between 8 and 9 o'clock, Gold water and the Baron came—the Baron wanted to know if I could get paper like the five-rouble note—they were both together, but the Baron was the spokesman—he said that about five or six hundred would be required to be printed off—after we gave information, the workmen under mine and my father's superintendence, acted according to the directions we received from the prisoners, and the work of engraving the plates was progressing from that time to 20th November—on 26th October, about 9 o'clock in the evening, the three prisoners came and wanted to see the plates; I showed them one of these plates, No. 2, which was partially engraved at the time, and No. 1 was in course of workmanship—they examined the plate, and the Baron said he was very glad to see that it was going on, and that he wanted another plate for the water-mark, producing another Russian note to show me—they said that they wanted to see the plates finished on let November; Gold water said that he hoped, next time they came, that I should have all the gas out, except a little jet at the back—on 1st November, at 2 o'clock, Goldwater came to say that they were coming in the evening, about 9 o'clock—they all came together at 9 o'clock, and I showed them the same plates—they examined them, but they were not quite finished—the Baron inquired when they would be finished, and I told him on Monday week, 15th November—next day, November 2d, the Baron came between 1 and 2 o'clock, and before he left Goldberg came, and there was some more conversation about the plates—that same evening, Gold-water came and asked me for some money—on 5th November, about a quarter to 9 in the evening, Goldwater came and told me that the others were outside—I went out with him, and found the others outside—they took me to the King's Head public-house in the neighbourhood, and Goldberg asked me, going along, if I had decided about the money, the commission—when we got to the King's Head, I asked the Baron for another note, as the first one was rubbed out—he said that he had not got one then, but he would send me one, and that he wanted to see a specimen of the paper—somewhere about that time, the Baron showed me some other notes of different denominations; one for fifty roubles, and one for twenty-five roubles—on 6th November, Goldwater came to the shop, and gave me this, other five-rouble note (marked H)—on 10th November, I met Goldwater in Bishopsgate-street, and he asked me how the plates were getting on—on the 12th Goldwater came to my shop, and inquired how the plates and proofs were getting on—I had been asking them for some more money, and Goldwater said that, if I took an impression of the two plates, as the Baron could not read them, the Baron would give me some more money—on 15th November Goldwater came with Goldberg, but I did not see them—on Thursday, the 18th, Goldwater came to the shop, and asked me to go outside with him—I found the Baron outside, and there was a conversation between him and Goldwater and me in reference to the proof—I showed
them a plate, and they examined it—on the next day, Friday, I saw all three of them in my father's shop, and showed them the three plates, and a proof of them—the prisoners examined the plates, the proof, and the paper—this (produced) is the proof; it was done from my plates—the prisoners spoke together in their own language, and having made an appointment to meet me next day, with the plates to be delivered, they left me—on the following morning, according to the appointment, I went to the King's Head, Threadneedle-street, taking with me the plates and proofs, which the prisoners had been, from time to time, examining—I went into a room at the King's Head, and the three prisoners being there, I took the plates out of my pocket, wrapped in paper, and placed them on the table—the prisoners examined them, and I left them with them, making some excuse, and left the room, and communicated with the officers, who were outside.
Goldberg. Q. When I came to you and asked you if you could keep a secret, and you could not understand me, was it not as interpreter that Gold water was brought? A. No, both you and Gold water spoke English to me—I can understand no other language—when you came the first time you did not tell me that the Baron sent you—I promised you a commission for getting me the order when I was paid for the work—you did not give me any order for bank-notes—the Baron gave it—you said that you thought it was for bank-notes when the order was given—Gold water always came in first—I swear you asked me for 30s. and I said that I would only give you 5s.—you said on 2d November, "I shall have no more to do with it, I shall come no more to your place"—you first asked me for a commission on 1st November, and when I first saw you, both you and Goldwater asked for a commission.
Q. Did not I refuse to take the 5s. you offered me, and say that I should have nothing to do with it? A. You said that you would have nothing more to do with it, and would take it out of my hands and give it to another engraver in Shoreditch—I do not recollect saying, "Let it stand over till Friday, and I will settle with you, I must consider about it"—I said that I would give you no more than 5s. as commission—after you said "I will come no more to your place, "I did not say," Come on Friday evening," I swear that—I believe there is a Saviour—I made the appointment with you all, to meet at the King's Head, on November 20th—I never heard the Flower Pot public-house named that I know of—I opened the parcel containing the plates and notes—you did not tell me that you wanted any notes or plates of me that I know of—you did not say that you were a party to the order which was given me, but you came always with them, and I thought you were.
Goldwater, (Through the Interpreter). Q. Did not you leave the plates behind in the public-house without paper? A. I left them all open on the table, and if you did not see them, you were in the room—it was a moderate sized back room, and the three of you were in the room when I laid the plates on the table—I spoke to you all and told you that I had come about the plates before opening the plates, and about what you spoke of last night—I went to the public-house by myself—I was there first—I came up at five minutes to 10, saw the Baron go in, and went in directly afterwards, and there was only the Baron in the room—the other two came twenty minutes or half an hour afterwards—I had not opened the plates before they came in, but directly they came into the room the Baron said, "Now to business,"—I then took the notes out of my pocket and opened them—they were all there, the notes and all.
Goldwater. I was not above five minutes in the house, and this witness
as soon as I came in in the course of five minutes, ran to the back part of the house, fetched an officer, pulled me down the stairs and gave me in charge. Witness. I was with the three prisoners half an hour or nearly three-quarters—they were up there talking, and there was bread and cheese and brandy and water, and that took more than five minutes—Goldwater did not leave the gold plate-with me to engrave—I never saw it—he said that he had got a gold plate and wanted it engraved with a Russian Eagle or Russian capitals—Goldwater did not say anything about bank-notes, it was Goldberg—my father said that if they paid-the price he would make one—it is within our line of business.
Goldwater. I never saw the plates on the evening I was taken till they were shown me at the station-house: as I am unable to read or write, how is it likely I could inspect the plates to know whether they were correct or not. Witness. You looked at the plate, but did not say whether it was right or wrong, it was the Baron said that; he was the spokesman after the first mention of the bank-notes.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do I understand that you left the plates on the table? A. Yes; all three—they were all separate and lying beside each other—I put them in that state on the table, when the Baron said "Now to business"—the brandy and water, and bread and cheese, had been ordered before that—I remained in the room about five minutes after I had produced the plates and laid them there—I left them when I went away.
Goldberg. Q. Did the Baron offer to break the plates in pieces, saying that he would not make use of them, and offer you 5l. for your trouble? A. I have not heard of it before.
HENRY WEBB . I am a detective, officer. On 21st October I received a communication, in consequence of which, with Hamilton and other officers, I watched the prisoners from that time till 20th November, when they were taken into custody—I saw them eight or ten times at Roll's shop, all three together—on 20th November I was watching the King's Head in Thread-needle-street, by appointment, and saw the Baron enter first; after him young Mr. Roll, and next Goldberg and Goldwater together—they went upstairs to a small back room—I continued watching until I saw young Mr. Roll come out; that was about half an hour after the two went in—he made a communication to me, and I entered with the other officers—as I was going into the small room, Goldwater was in the act of coming out, and the Baron and Goldberg were standing at the further end of the room, by the window—the plates were on a seat, wrapped up in a coat at the back of the Baron and Goldwater—I took them all in custody, and Inspector Hamilton took possession of the plates—I found a pencil and knife on the table, which turned out to be the Baron's—I searched him.
Goldberg. Q. Did you see me go up and down Threadneedle-street, before I went into the public-house? A. No; but you went into the public-house, and asked if there were any foreigners there, and were told that they had been there some time—I did not see you walking up and down Threadneedle-street, before you went in—I have seen you walking up and down Sun-street, before Mr. Roll's shop, while Goldwater has been in, and then he has fetched you, and you have gone in with him—we went into the public-house about two minutes after.
Goldwater. Q. You did not meet me in the room; did you not meet me on the stairs? A. The door of the room opened inside, and you had the handle of the door coming out as I was coming in—you were coming out at the door.
Goldberg. Q. Where did you find the notes and plates? A. On a settle against which the Baron was leaning—I never could have said before the Lord Mayor, that I found them on the table (The COURT referred to the, depositions, and found that the witness's evidence before the Lord Mayor agreed with his present statement)—they were all in papers, as they are now, and were lying in what I thought was a wrapper, but I found it was a coat, partially covered, but not wholly—I did not know whose coat it was, but I have since ascertained that it was young Mr. Roll's; this is it (produced)—it was lying open like this, and the plates, one of which was in white paper, laid so; they were all in paper.
Goldwater. Q. Can you say whether the plates were wrapped up in paper or not? A. They were—I cannot say how you could have packed them up in two minutes, I can only say how I found them—before I had discovered the plates, I said that we were police-officers, and charged you all with causing plates to be made for the purpose of making Russian notes, and with having these plates in your possession in that room—I immediately turned round, and found the plates as described—you were in the room when I entered, and I was at the heels of the other officers—I cannot say anything about your being on the stairs, and one of the officers pushing you into the room—I went into the room, and you were there with the other two prisoners.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE to ROLL. Q. Is that your coat? A. Yes, I left it on the settle, close by the window—the plates were not in it when I left.
Goldwater. That may be true or not, but I know nothing about the plates.
JAMES HEARD . I am a Russian, and am a clerk at the Russian consulate—I have translated the impressions from these three plates; they are in Russian—(The witness here read the translation)—I left Russia fourteen months ago—notes of this kind are circulated there.
COURT. Q. Are they like some notes you get here; do they represent metallic coin. A. One gets so much metal for a five-rouble note—you can get five roubles in actual silver—3s. 2d. is a rouble—these notes would be worth about 15s. 6d. each; they are for five roubles silver.
Goldwater. Q. Can these notes, which have been shown here, be circulated in Russia for money? A. They can be circulated among the poorer classes, but not among the noblemen—they would see their imperfections—they are certainly not worth much.
COURT. Q. Do these blanks in the translation appear as blanks on the notes, or do they represent words that are unintelligible; just take a pen, and make a mark under any word that is imperfect. A. The front part is quite perfect—these marks represent nothing in Russian—the part of the note which I have translated represents, word for word, that which would be in a genuine Russian note.
—ABBOTT. I am a printer—I printed the first of these, which appear to be five-rouble notes, from one of the plates produced, and this is the impression I took.
(The two following witnesses were called at the request of the prisoners).
Goldwater. Q. I only want to ask you whether I did not come and request you to engrave a golden plate only? A. When you brought the
Baron in, you simply said that you had called for a small engraving, which you had talked to my son about, and wished to see my son, who was behind, and I thought that was the truth—you came the day before with the Baron on the 20th.
GEORGE JOHN KRANE . I am Consul-general for the Russian Government in Great Britain—during the autumn I believe two of the prisoners came to me, but I only saw them once or twice—I could not speak to their faces, but I know Goldberg the best—I have no belief as to Goldwater—he may have been to me—it is very probable he did—I can recognise Goldberg's face—it was he who spoke most—I cannot exactly tell you the date—I did not take a note of it, because I had been a few weeks before deceived by a man who came to denounce pretended forgeries—I should be sorry to say the date to a month, and make a mistake—the two men said that they had found out that there was an intention on the part of some person who was expected to arrive, or who had arrived, to cause Russian paper-money to be circulated—that the person expected was a rich man, with a great deal of money at his command—that he was expected, or had arrived in London, to cause these Russian bank-notes to be forged—that he belonged to a good family, and there is some recollection in my mind, that he made use of the word Baron—I told them, as I always do to these people, that they must address themselves to the police and the Consul-general—I do not know whether I gave them the address of Mr. Mackenzie or Mr. Durham; but I said that at my private lodgings I would take no representation of that sort, and that no denunciation could be expected, unless they could give some sort of proof—I do not know that they did not say that they wanted a little money; but if I did give them any, it was but eight or nine shillings—certainly not ten shillings altogether, and from that time, I have heard nothing of them—I am told that they have called at the office, but I have not been them.
Goldwater. We called on the Consul to inform him that such a thing was going to be done, expecting of course that we should be rewarded for our trouble; but the Consul would not believe me, though he said that if we brought proofs he would speak afterwards with us, and I was trying to get proof of the forgery that was to be carried on. I have not been able to produce any proof to the Consul, because while I was trying to do so I was taken into custody; he sent me to bring the proofs, and said that I should be rewarded for it. Witness. I refused to have anything to do with them, and gave them the address of the police and of my solicitors, and said that they must go to them—I always do so—I certainly did not do anything which he might construe into an authority to co-operate with the guilty party in having the plate engraved—I sent them to the police, in order that the police or my solicitors might judge whether there was any case or not, and left them to say whether the information was sufficient to act upon.
Goldberg's Defence. The engraver's evidence does not show that I had the notes or gave the order. The only reason that I went there the first time was because this man said, "Here is a Russian gentlemen who wants a gold plate engraved, and he has already communicated with the engraver, but he wants to know if he can keep a secret; he did not know much English, and asked me in German the translation of "secret." He asked me if he wanted to have a plate for bank-notes—I said, in the presence of all his people, "No, I do not think that," because you cannot go and give an order for bank-notes without 100l., deposit at least. I went to the engraver
and said, "The gentleman who was here wants to know if you can keep a secret;" he said, "Yes." I said, "I do not think it will be a gold plate; I think it must be plate to get gold." I could not understand him exactly; he said before that the Russian gentleman was only a fortnight or three weeks in England, and I said to the engraver, "If you cannot understand this man I am at your service, but you must pay me a commission." I tried to see the gentleman, but did not know where he lived, so I went and met him there, and we all went to the engraver. I can understand German, but they spoke Russian together; afterwards he told me that he wanted some money. I said, "If you pay me, I will ask him for it." I told him, and he asked 5l. the first time; the gentleman prepared himself with 5l., but he then only asked for 2l., which he gave him: next time he asked 8l., and agreed to take 5l. I asked for 1l., and he offered me 5s.; I said, "No, I will not have anything at all; I am going, and will have nothing to do with the business" He said, "Well, alter your mind, come on Friday evening." I was going by myself, and he asked me if the others were coming. I said, "If they have got an appointment with you, they will come." I never examined the things. I do not understand Russian, and could not make any use of Russian bank-notes. I am not going to take an interpreter to Russia, and get them changed there; if I wanted such notes I had no occasion to put myself in a dangerous position, because my brother-in-law could have done it for me; I could have recommended them to him, and they would have been quite safe in his hands. I said the evening before, "This is a very dangerous business, tell your governor he had better drop the matter;" he said, "Mr. Roll, I cannot make use of the notes; I will give you 5l. for your trouble, and I shall then have a few pounds left to go home to my country." I hope you will not come to the conclusion that I was in possession of them.
Goldwaters Defence (through the interpreter). Gentlemen of the Jury, I have not gained anything by this; I have had no profit by it, and I do not see how I can be guilty. I am a poor man, and have a wife and family at home. I, knowing of this business going to be done, gave the necessary information to the Consul, that I might get a little reward for my information. I therefore went very often to the man who was manufacturing it to see when it would be ready, in order to get the proofs, and take them to the Consul as he described. I am not guilty.
Solomon Brodie, a watchmaker, of 49. Perry Fields, Poplar; and Mark Davis, a cap maker, of 16, New Gravel Lane, Houndsditch, gave Goldwater a good character.
GOLDBERG— GUILTY .
GOLDWATER— GUILTY .
Five years' penal servitude.
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution, and MR. METCALFE defended the prisoner.
NOT GUILTY .
The prisoner was again indicted on the following day, for a rape, upon which no evidence was offered.
NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT.—Friday, January 7th, 1859.
PRESENT—Mr. Baron MARTIN; and Mr. Ald. ROSE.
Before MR. BARON MARTIN and the Fourth Jury.
MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution.
SARAH GOODEY . I am the prisoner's wife—we have been married three years and a half—on 13th September, I was living at 4, Oak-place, Stepney, not with my husband, but he came there, and stayed a night and a day—we had parted on 12th September, the day after he came—he found me out at 4, Oak-place, I do not know how, and came there drank with his shirt all bloody, and said that he had been fighting in Baker-street—nearly a month afterwards, in case he should come again to me, I removed to Wellington-street, Stepney, and occupied a room on the ground-floor—I have one child by the prisoner, a little boy, who was living with me—on the morning of 14th December, I was in bed with my little boy, when the prisoner came into my room—I said "Well, Fred, what do you want here "—he said "I have come to see you, but I shall not stay long"—he came to my bedside, and I said "Move away, I want to get up and get some tea"—this was about 10 o'clock in the morning—he said "You lie there, there is plenty of time for that, and forced me down on the bed with his left arm—I said, "Come, none of your nonsense, or I shall call murder"—he said "Where is the baby?"—I said "Here he is" and pulled the bedclothes down to show him—he went to lock the door, and then went towards the window, and I got out of bed—he was pulling something out of his left hand pocket, and I said "What a fine cigar-case you have got"—he said "Yes it is"—he replaced the case in his pocket, but what he bad in his hands I could not tell—there was nothing more till I felt a razor across my throat, as I was putting on some of my clothes, and he was standing by the wall at the back of me—it is a small room—I felt myself down on the floor, with my head on the fender, fighting to get possession of the razor—he kept trying to cut my throat while I was on the floor, and cut it in three places—he had his left hand on my chest, and one knee on me, and with his other hand he was wounding me—I laid hold of the razor, and my hands were cut in eight places—I caught hold of it two or three times, but could not succeed in getting it from his hands till the last, and then I did; and in the struggle, it broke, and I had possession of the blade in three wounds in my hand—the handle came off, and I kept the blade—I kept crying "Murder," and begging him to desist, but he never answered—when I got the blade from him, he screamed out "Oh!" and went to reach a white-handled dinner knife off the table, but he overbalanced himself and fell, and that is how I got up, I unlocked the door, and found myself in the other room on the same floor—I took the razor from the wounds and flung it away in the fender, as I could not remove from where I stood—I had the presence of mind to think that if he followed me, he would get possession of it—a surgeon was sent for—I was afterwards taken to the hospital—there was no razor in the room when ray husband came in the morning—I saw a razor-case produced at the police-court—that is what I took to be a cigar-case.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. How long had you known your husband before you were married? A. I had seen him to speak to him for some time, but had not known him more than three months before marriage—I know nothing about his fracturing his skull some years ago, or about his having a silver plate in his head—I had been at Wellington-street about two months—I left my husband several times, and be has left me several times—no one but my child was living with me in Wellington-street—several persons came to see me there—a man named Cook did not come to see me there, and never slept with me, or in the same room with me—he has seen me, and other people have seen me—Cook was not in the habit of being in my room in the evening—I cannot tell exactly when he came to see me; he has called in as he was passing—he is a shipwright—I do not know that he is a mere docklabourer—he is a young man from my own neighbourhood; Somersetshire—I have known him about four months I should think—I never lived with Mrs. Davis—he lodged there, and I have been in her house, and he has come in—I lived at Mrs. Kiss's; Cook never was in her house—I saw him when I lived there because it was the opposite door—I never went into Cook's room, nor did Mrs. Davis find me on the bed with him, it is an untruth—it is true that I have received money from a gentleman in the army, but it was through the prisoner's brutality: it is a gentleman who I lived with some years ago—I do not know a Mr. Keith, a brewer from Hoxton, I never heard the name before—I never lived in Norfolk-terrace—I lived in the Old Kent-road along with my husband's brother, and his wife; Mr. Keith did not call on me there, nor any brewer from Hoxton—my husband was not in the Artillery at the time we were married, he was in the Arsenal at Woolwich—he left Woolwich about two or three months after we were married—there was a disturbance before we left—he tried to strangle me—I do not remember scratching his face all the way down, so that he was unable to go out; I remember his beating me—he left the Arsenal to go to Australia; it was not in consequence of the disturbances that I was continually creating there—he did not say that he was obliged to leave there because I got him into such disgrace by my conduct—he sent even our watches to be put up for a raffle to go to Australia—the intimacy with the gentleman was before I was married.
MR. POLAND. Q. Did your husband know that you received this money? A. Oh, yes; but I did not have it after I was married—at the time I was married I had no more—he was aware at the time we were married that I had been living with a gentleman before; he came to the house, and saw all the furniture and every thing.
ELIZABETH SKOYLES . I live at 9, Wellington-street, and let rooms—Mrs. Goodey came to live with me about two months prior to 14th December—on that morning about 10 o'clock there was a knock at the front door—I opened it, and the prisoner came up and asked me for a name which I did not know—he then said, 'Goodey,"—I said, "Yes,"—and he walked in and opened her room door, I did not show him her room—he went in, and not more than five minutes afterwards, I heard Mrs. Goodey say, "If you do I will shout murder"—the door was shut and lacked, and my daughter knocked at the door—I heard a confusion, and my daughter ran to the police-station—I heard a very great scuffle, and she screamed "Murder" over and over again—I tried to force the door open, but could not; I begged of her to unlock the door, and called out loudly to her—some one unlocked the door, and Mrs. Goodey came out, and into my back-room,
covered with blood—she had a petticoat on over her night gown, and that was all—the prisoner came out to me—I was very much frightened, he lifted up his arm to me, and said that he was mad—I said, "For God's sake have mercy on a poor old widow, do if you please go into that room and sit down"—that was the prosecutrix's room—he went in, and I took the key from the inside of the door, and locked him in, and while I was in the back room he got out at the window into the street—the police came and took Mrs. Goodey to the hospital in a cab.
Cross-examined. Q. Did a man named Cook come there? A. Well, sir, there was a gentleman came—I did not know his name—I know it now—he told me his name was Cook—he came to see the child when she was in the hospital—I cannot say whether he came before this disturbance took place; many visitors came—her sister came, and I cannot answer for who came—I did not see Cook there before—I cannot say whether he was there almost every day—I take in washing, and was very busy—he has not slept there to my knowledge, or shaved there in the morning—my daughter and I have not been in the habit of waiting on him when he has been there—I dare say I have seen him there as I passed the door, and before this disturbance; if the door has been open I have seen him there—I have been very ill, and cannot recollect how often, I might as well say wrong as right—my daughter and I do not wait on the lodgers, but when Mrs. Goodey has been ill I have carried her a cup of tea—I mean to swear that I do not know that Cook slept in her room, nor do I know that any one did; I did not—her sister slept with her nearly a week when she was on a visit to her; and she had a little girl who used to attend to the child—I never sat down in the room; I never made it a practice to go in—on my word I cannot remember how often I have seen Cook there, you have upset me so—I cannot say whether it was frequent—I have been at my wash tub from morning to night—I have not seen him fifty times.
WILLIAM HAYES (Police-inspector, K). About half-past ten on the morning of the 14th December, I went to 9, Wellington-street, and found Mrs. Goodey in the backroom ground floor bleeding from the throat—I procured a cab, and took her to the hospital immediately—I searched the room and found a razor blade covered with blood in the fire-place, and part of the handle was given to me by a lodger in the house. I found, marks of blood in the front room—on my way to the house I saw the prisoner about a quarter of a mile from it—he was drunk, and I did not speak to him—he was confined at the station, and about four o'clock in the afternoon he was sober—I read the charge over to him, and cautioned him that he was going to be taken before a Magistrate, and whatever he said to me it would be my duty to relate to the Magistrate in court—he said "I know nothing of it, I have no recollection of it."
Cross-examined. Q. Was he very drunk? A. Yes.
WILLIAM PELLON (Policeman, K 274). On the morning of the 14th of December, about half-past ten o'clock, I saw the prisoner in Charles-street, about a quarter of a mile from Wellington-street—he appeared very drunk, and was throwing his money to the boys who were surrounding him, half-crowns and shillings, and there might be something else—he strewed them about—I said, "My good man, do you know what you are doing of?"—he said, "We have all a propensity, I do not belong to this earth, I am going to ascend to another country never to descend on this earth again"—I took him in custody—the back of his right hand was covered with blood—I asked him where it came from, and he made no reply—on the way to the station he
stopped suddenly, and said, "I have a burden in my pocket:" he put his hand in his pocket and pulled out the lower part of this razor case (produced), and threw it on the ground—I picked it up—I searched him at the station, and found the other part of the razor case in his right hand coat pocket—it is a large case, and would hold a razor.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you see him before or after the inspector? A. Before, as far as I can judge.
WILLIAM HENRY HILL I am house surgeon at the London Hospital—on the morning of the 14th December, Mrs. Goodey was brought there—I examined her and found three wounds on her throat, one immediately under the chin, the other much lower on one side of the neck, and the third on the collar-bone lower still—they were not dangerous in themselves, but they were in a dangerous part—if the wound in the chin had been cut deeper, it would have been fatal—they were such wounds as would have been made by a razor—I found eight wounds on her hands, which might have been made by a razor—she was in the hospital between a week and a fortnight, and is an out patient still.
Cross-examined. Q. Supposing a man had been standing behind the woman with her back to him, and he had drawn it across, intending to kill her, might he easily have accomplished his purpose. A. Easily—the force required would depend on the depth of the wound—the position of both the upper wounds was dangerous, but they did not go to any great depth—the upper one was the deepest—that was about a quarter of an inch deep, and about two inches long across the throat; but I cannot judge whether it was from right to left, or from left to right.
Witnesses for the Defence.
JABEZ GOODEY . I am the prisoner's brother; we were playfellows together—I recollect some years ago an accident happening to him—he fractured his skull, and lay senseless for forty-eight hours—a plate was put in the head, I believe; but I will not be positive—two pieces of bone were taken out—I saw the physician and the surgeon—I have always acted under the opinion that he might lose his reason—he is very sober unless he has anything to excite him; but when he does take too much I have noticed a wildness about him, such as I should anticipate from what the doctor said—he was married three years ago, and his conduct towards his wife has been far better than I anticipated under the circumstances in which he has been placed—he has been kind and affectionate, and she is a very drunken, bad, base woman—she left him on several occasions, and I have been and seen her, and talked to her—the first time she left him was two months after they were married—I was then living in Woolwich, in business for myself—she came to London, and came home beastly drunk—he left Woolwich on account of the words that ensued on that occasion—she scratched his face, and he was ashamed to go out—I saw her do it—he then left her, and went into the country, and ultimately went into the service of my other brother, who was in business for himself; he has been there two years, and his wife lived with me—her conduct has been very bad during the time she has been married—I have seen Cook; I have never seen him with her; but I have seen him in the room that she occupies at 9, Wellington-street.
Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. Q. Does a very little drink excite the
prisoner? A. It does; I have only seen him exhibit any imbecility of mind when he gets a little drink.
EDMUND CURTIS . I am potman at the Crown and Anchor, Gloucester-street, Commercial-road—the prisoner was in the habit of using that house off and on—he is a very quiet inoffensive man, except when he gets too much drink, and then he is more like a madman than anything else. About 2 o'clock on the morning of 14th December he was very drunk, and asked me to take him home as he was incapable of taking himself home—he was in a state of great excitement, throwing himself about in the way he generally acts when he is drunk.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you take him to his lodgings at 2 o'clock? A. Yes; I saw him inside—a very little drink excites him.
MARTHA BUNCE . The prisoner lodged in the house where I was acting as nurse, prior to 14th December—on that morning he was brought home intoxicated at 2 o'clock and was in a state of great excitement—about half-past 8 o'clock I made him a cup of tea—he was then in a state of great excitement and still apparently drunk—he had taken his clothes off excepting his trousers—excepting when he got in that state he was a quiet inoffensive man—I have seen him drunk three times during the time I have known him, and on those three occasions he was always in that violent excited way; but he was a quiet, harmless, inoffensive man—he appeared like a man with something on his mind when drunk, but when sober he acted like a gentleman—I did not know his wife.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you up at 2 o'clock when he was brought home? A. No—I did not see him—I was in bed—I saw him at half-past 8 in the morning—I have stated nothing but the truth.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Was he lying in bed when you saw him? A. No; he came into my room, and I made him some tea—I heard him when he came home, and knew he was drunk—he had been in bed when I saw him.
SOPHILA GOODEY . I am the wife of Jabez Goodey—I have known the prisoner and his wife since their marriage—he was a peaceable inoffensive man, unless it was through her drunkenness—that was the dispute between them—I have put her to bed four nights out of the seven, and have been obliged to put my children to bed at 4 o'clock that they should not hear her abusive language—he behaved as a good husband to her when she was sober—she has told me something about Mr. Keith—I have seen him—he inquired for Mrs. Goodey and for Mrs. Jervis—he did not know the right name that she went in—I denied him to her several times—she went by the name of Jervis.
MARY ANN RISS . I have known the prisoner and prosecutrix just upon two years—I washed for Mrs. Goodey—I saw Cook on 1st December in Mrs. Goodey's room, and she was there also—they were sitting together writing letters—Mrs. Davies was not with me—I was going to call for the washing at another time, and was always desired to tap at her shutters, but on 1st December I had to go for my money—about a fortnight or three weeks after December 1st, I tapped at the shutters—Cook was then sitting in the arm chair, and Mrs. Goodey was sitting on his lap—I called Mrs. Davies to see it.
COURT to ELIZABETH SKOYLES. Q. Did the prisoner appear to be drunk when he knocked at the door? A. No.
GUILTY on the Second Court. — Four Years Penal Servitude.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.
EDWARD RICHARD BENMORE . I am gardener to Thomas Quested Finnis, who resides at Wanstead, in Essex—I knew a metal bell, which had been hanging on a yew-tree on the lawn in front of the mansion—I saw it safe on 28th November, about half-past four o'clock—I missed it on Tuesday, 30th November, about half-past seven o'clock in the morning, and I gave information to the police at Wanstead—I saw the bell on 1st December at the Stepney police-station, and knew it—I looked well to see how it had been taken away—they had rolled it under the fence—I have here a representation of the bell, and the inscription that was on it (produced)—it came from India—it was a Burmese bell.
WILLIAM COPPING (Policeman, K 379). On 1st December, from instructions I received, I made inquiry about a bell—I went to Mr. West's, in Back-church-lane—I found the bell there—I got some information from Mr. West, and in consequence of what he told me, I went to Mr. Day, in the West-India-road, Poplar, and, from what he told me, I went to the Victoria Docks—I was there shown the prisoner Tuttlebee—I asked him whether he knew anything about a bell—he said, "No"—I said "Are you sure of that"—he said, "Yes"—Mr. Day then said to him, "You know that bell that you brought to me, and took up to London yesterday"—he said, "Yes"—I said to him, "Where did you get that bell"—he said, "A man by the name of Joseph Ashton, called me up in the morning, about 7 o'clock, and asked me if I would sell it for him"—he said he lived two or three doors down the street, and he showed me the house—he said, "I will give you all the information I can; a man of the name of Irwin lives across the Marsh, and he took it to London in his cart"—I detained Tuttlebee—I saw Irwin at 4 o'clock in the North-Woolwich-road—I said to him, "Where did you get the bell from, that you took to London yesterday"—he said, A short, full-faced man employed me"—when we got through the docks, he showed me the street where he lived, but he said he did not know his name—I took him to Poplar Station, and came back, and, from what he told me, I took Ashton—he was in a beer-house—he went out the back way, and ran away before he knew what we wanted; but I caught him, and took him to Poplar Station, and Irwin said, "That is the man that employed me"—Ashton made no reply—I asked him how the bell got into his cart—he said he did not know.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You asked Tuttlebee whether he
knew anything about the bell; did you say the gong? A. I might have said the gong—it was from his information I apprehended the other two men—he assisted me as much as he could—he told me about the cart, and about the other two men—he told me what I told you.
Ashton. I made no escape. Witness. He jumped through a window, and fastened himself in a place—we had to kick the door open before we could get him.
WILLIAM WEST . I am a brass-founder, and live in Back-church-lane, Whitechapel. On Tuesday evening, 30th November, Day came to me, and asked me about a bell—the bell was sent to me the next morning—we broke this piece off it—the officer afterwards called, and we gave up the bell and the piece—this is the piece of it.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. You would have broken it up? A. Yes, if the officer had not called—there was an inscription on it in some foreign language—the inscription was defaced when we had it.
JOSEPH MARKS . I deal in metal. On 30th November I was in Whitechapel between 9 and 10 o'clock in the morning—I met Mr. Day in a chaise-cart—he said he thought he had a bell that would suit me—the same morning a cart came to my house with the bell—I said I would not purchase it—Mr. West afterwards bought it in my presence.
CHARLES WILLIAM DAY . I live in Wellington-place, West India Dock-road. On Tuesday morning, 30th November, Tuttlebee came to my premises—I have known him some years—he said he had a piece of metal—I asked what shape it was—he said, something in the shape of a bell, but he had not seen it—I asked him what weight it was—he said, 14 or 15 cwt. I asked him where it was—he said it was in the East India Dock-road in a cart—I said that I would go with him in an hour, and I went with him—I asked him where the bell was—he said, on ahead about 2 or 300 yards—I saw Irwin driving the cart. I went on to Whitechapel, and saw Mr. Marks—I said I thought I had something that would suit him in the shape of a bell—I asked it he would look at it—he said "Yes," and I drove it to his place—Mr. Marks said, "This is a foreigner"—I said to Tuttlebee, "You know the person you got this bell from"—he said "Yes, it is all right"—it could not be weighed whole; it was to be broken up, but we found it could not be broken—I went out and came back about 4 o'clock—I saw the bell sold to Mr. West in the evening for 9 1/2 d. a pound—I sold it to him—it was appointed for Mr. West to go to Mr. Marks at 9 o'clock the next morning to get the bell away—my van went with two ropes to get it away.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you say to Tuttlebee, "You know the party you got this from?" A. Yes—he said that it was all right—he said he had not paid any money for it—he wad to pay for it when it was weighed—I had known Tuttlebee three years, and had dealings with him ever since the Victoria Dock has been opened—he has been a dealer in metal all that time. On the 27tb I purchased some metal which he got out of the docks—from all parts of the world, ships come in there with metal, with bells, and everything else—he bore a very good character—he always acted upright and downstraight with me.
COURT Q. You say that you sold the bell; had you bought it? A. Yes, of Tuttlebee—I gave him 8 1/2 d. a pound for it.
EDWARD HALEY (Police Superintendent, K). On 1st December I received information, and the three prisoners were brought to Arbour-square Police-station,—I ordered Tuttlebee to be brought into a room to me—the other prisoners were not in the same room—I told him what charge had been
made against him, that of stealing a bell from the premises of Alderman Finnis at Wanstead—I told him if he wished to make any statement, it would be taken down and might be used for or against him, but it must be entirely voluntary—I took it down in writing at the time—he said "I was in bed on Tuesday morning at 6 o'clock, when I was called up by Joseph Ashton who is now in the next room at the station—he asked me if I could sell a bell—I got up and answered, 'I will go and see'—I asked him where it was—he told me it was on the Marsh at Irwin's loaded up—I walked with Ashton to Irwin's and I saw nothing but dung in the cart—I told him I would go to Mr. Day—I directed them to follow me in an hour—I went to near the West India Dock entrance, and called on Mr. Day, a wholesale metal dealer—I afterwards met Mr. Irwin's cart in the East India Dock-road—Mr. Irwin was the only person there with it, and he directed the cart with its contents to be driven to Spitalfields—I then walked with Mr. Day towards his house, and afterwards accompanied him in his cart to a foundry in Spitalfields, where I left him, and fetched Irwin who was in a street near, who backed the cart into the yard, tilted it up, and pitched out the bell—that was the first time I had seen it—I then agreed to meet Mr. Day this day at 8 o'clock in the morning to see the weight of it, and receive the money, and to call at Ashton's on my way home to give him the money what it made.—Signed Samuel Tuttlebee."
JAMES BAGSHAW (Policeman, K 194.) I was on duty at Forest-gate, at a quarter before 11 o'clock at night on 29th November; I saw Irwin—I had known him before; he was in a cart—I thought he was asleep, I called out, and he said, "All right" and drove on—I saw no more of him—he was going in the direction of Alderman Finnis's, which was rather better than a mile from there—it might be a mile and a half—I am sure he is the man.
JOHN JOHSON . I live at West-ham, and am a coal-porter—I was at the Red Lion, at Plaistow-marsh, on 29th November just after dinner; Ashton was there, and he asked me if I had a mind to go and walk with him—I went to the top of the street, he called me on one side, and said, "Do you recollect what I said to you"—I said, "I recollect something of it"—he said, "I have been about a horse and cart, and made it all right; it will take us about an hour to go and about twenty minutes to do the job"—and he said, "4l. or 5l. would look well in your pocket"—he said he should call for me at 4 o'clock—I left him and went home, and did not see any more of him till I saw him at Ilford—I did not go with him.
COURT. Q. Did he say what the job was? A. No, he said, "A job."
NOT GUILTY .
MR. PLATT conducted the Prosecution.
ISAAC GUY (Policeman, K 54.) On 30th December, about 7 in the evening, I was with Clark, a policeman, and went to the house of Mrs. Slater, who has been tried before the Magistrate, to search it—we found some things, and some duplicates, and then went to Mr. Basley's, and showed him something, and then to Mr. Philips's shop—Slater was at the station on another charge, and the sergeant said something about Mr. Basley's cotton print, in consequence of which I went to the prisoner's house at 9 o'clock that evening, took her into custody, searched the house, and found twenty-three duplicates in a dust heap in the back yard—she sent her girl
to fetch them—she told me that the reason why they were there was, because she did not want her husband to know she had so many—among those duplicates I found one for a gown, pledged on 23d December in the name of Faulkner for 3s. 6d., and went to Philips's shop on the following morning—that gown was afterwards shown to Mr. Basley.
Prisoner. There was a shelf over the dust heap, and my girl was getting the basket down, and the tickets fell into the dust heap. Witness. The girl got to the dust heap before me; I picked several duplicates out of the dust.
Prisoner. Mrs. Slater nursed me with this baby, and used to lead me out twice a day, that is why we are associates, and she took the liberty of stopping and speaking to me; and since I have been well she has spoken to me.
HENRY GEORGE COOPER . I am assistant to Mr. Philips, a pawnbroker of Stratford—I produce a gown which does not appear to have been worn, pledged on 23d December—I cannot say by whom—I have seen the prisoner in our place—I gave this duplicate to whoever pawned the article—both the women had been continually at the shop in December, over and over again.
Prisoner. I have only been there three times. Witness. I have only been there three weeks.
JAMES SHARP (Policeman, K 381.) When we were before the Magistrate at Stratford I heard the prisoner say to Slater, "If you will keep my children, or if you will clear me, I will take your children"—Slater said, "No, I cannot do that, because you had as much to do with it as I had"—the prisoner said nothing to that.
Prisoner. I said, "What will become of my poor children, and what are you putting it on my back for?"—and she said, "I will be a mother to your children." Witness. There was some little conversation between them, but I could not hear what they said.
HENRY BASLET . I am a linen-draper of Stratford—between the 6th and 10th December I missed a large quantity of cotton goods from my shop-door, and gave information to a constable, and patterns of the goods—on 31st December I was shown the piece of cotton produced, which is made up into a dress—I believe it to be mine, and part of that which I lost; I only speak to it by the pattern—I had not sold any when I lost it, and the whole piece was taken—I have sold none since, it is not a common pattern—I lost the whole of two patterns.
JURY. Q. Are you aware whether that is the whole that was manufactured? A. No, there would be some hundred pieces manufactured, but that was the whole of my stock—we always keep patterns of new goods.
NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Baron Martin.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY, with MESSRS. GIFFARD and POLAND, conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM EMMERSON SAUNDERSON . I am agent to the Kent Fire Insurance Company—in December, 1857, I saw the prisoner in reference to his effecting an insurance—he required the sum of 300l. to be insured upon his effects
—I described to him how he was to divide it, because we divide it into several items, and he divided it in that way—I took a note at the time of the mode in which he divided it (referring to a paper), it was upon household furniture and effects 200l., upon fixtures and fittings therein, that is, in the dwelling-house, 20l., upon stock and utensils in trade therein, 70l., upon hay, clover, and straw in shed behind 10l., making a total of 300l.—the policy was afterwards delivered to the prisoner—I am not quite certain that I delivered it myself, I believe I did.
FREDERICK SCUDAMORE . I am the attorney for this prosecution—on 10th December last I served upon the prisoner a copy of this notice. (This was a notice to produce the policy in question, dated 10th December, 1857. It was not produced, but MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE did not object to a copy of it being read.)
MR. SAUNDERSON (continued). This (produced) is a copy of the policy.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I believe you went through the stock, did you not? A. No; I went through the shop—I had not a general idea of the character of the stock—I have not said that I considered the insurance was a fair amount for the quantity of stock I saw—I did not go into the quantity—I did not say that I considered the insurance was a fair one—I might have said I did not consider it an unfair amount to insure for, and I did not, taking the appearance of the place.
Q. He told you, did he not, that his stock varied very much? A. I cannot call to mind any particular conversation upon that point—I cannot say he did not say so—it was a special risk, that means more; on account of the nature of the stock and the premises—it is my business, as agent for the Company, to go over the premises and look at the nature of the risk—I passed through the shop with Mr. Roper to look at the back premises—it is my duty, as far as possible, to protect the interests of the parties to whom I act as agent—as part of that duty I ought to look at the premises before I recommend an insurance—I did so—the premises consisted of a cellar (the basement), the shop, then the bedroom, and then the attic over—as far as my recollection serves me, there was a gas-light at the end of the counter—I do not recollect whether there was a gas-light suspended from the ceiling of the shop—my attention was not called to that at the time—I was there to look, but my attention was not directed—I did not notice what the material of the ceiling of the shop was—I could not have told if I had looked—to my recollection no intimation was given that a surveyor might examine the premises—I made a memorandum—the result of such a memorandum sometimes is that the Company sends a surveyor, if their attention is particularly called to it—I cannot say whether the prisoner knew that I had made a special memorandum of that kind—this is the memorandum that I made, "The stock of Richard Roper, corn dealer, of Royal-hill, Greenwich, consists of flour, seeds, &c., the stock of hay, straw, and clover is kept in a timber-built shed in rear, but almost adjoining the back premises. "That was with a view to inform the Company that there was something more than usually dangerous—when a representation of that kind is made to a Company they do not generally send their own surveyor to go over the premises, unless they are specialty requested to do so—I cannot say whether or not I said anything to the prisoner about a surveyor.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Such a memorandum as that indicates something about the nature of the building, that a surveyor might go and look at it, if the office pleased—is not that so? A. Yes; if a surveyor had been
sent it would have been for the purpose of surveying the nature of the building only.
Cross-examined. Q. You also made the model that I have? A. Yes; that is equally correct.
PRISCILLA WHEELER I am the wife of Thomas Wheeler, and live in Addy-street, Deptford—I am a distant relation of the prisoner's wife—I went to the prisoner's house in September to nurse Mrs. Roper during her confinement, which was on Thursday the 9th September—she occupied a bed-room on the first floor—I remember the fire taking place on Sunday, 12th September, about 4 o'clock—on the Saturday night before retiring to bed, I had been down stairs into the kitchen—that was about half-past 11—I went down to make some gruel—I then went up stairs, and I did not leave the room any more that night—the gas-lights were burning when I left to go up stairs—there is a gas-light in the shop, and in the back parlour, which leads out of the shop—the gas had not been turned off at all then—Mr. Roper had not come up stairs to bed himself—I left Mr. Roper and the girl down stairs—I think the gas was full on at the burners—during Mrs. Roper's confinement the gas had been led on, in case she wanted anything during the night—when I went up stairs at half-past 11, I left Mr. Roper and the servant down stairs—the servant's name is Waterfall—Mr. Roper came up stairs about a quarter of an hour after—he came into the bedroom and said "good night" to me and his wife, and then went to his room—since Mrs. Roper's confinement he has slept in a front room on the same floor, and the servant and the children slept in the attic—the steps of the staircase leading to the attic are just outside the bed-room door—I can't say how many stairs there are—there are two flights of stairs; I can't say how many there are in each flight—after the prisoner had said good night, I went to bed and went to sleep—after I had been asleep I was disturbed by Mrs. Roper speaking to me—she said there was a nasty smell in the room—I did not smell anything—I can't say what time it was that she spoke; it was some time in the night—I did not leave the room; I went to sleep again—Mrs. Roper awoke me to attend to her; I attended to her and then got into bed and went to sleep again—I was disturbed again by Mrs. Roper saying she smelt fire; I did not smell the fire—Mrs. Roper told me to call Mr. Roper; but before I could do so, he burst the room door open and rushed into the room—he was in his drawers and night-shirt—he said, "There is fire, for God's sake open the window, and get out as fast as you can!"—Mrs. Roper's bed was near the window; close to the window—the window on that model (looking at it) represents the window of the bed-room from which we got on to the roof of the adjoining house—when Mr. Roper rushed into the room, the flames followed him—he assisted Mrs. Roper out of the window, on to the out-building; he then assisted me out, and gave me the baby—he left us there, and jumped off the wash-house place and went to make an alarm—before he burst the door open he knocked at the door, and called up stairs to the girl, "Lizzy, Lizzy!"—after he had got us out, he got us out himself—at that time the curtains of the bed were on fire—when he assisted us on to the out-building, we stayed there till he came back; he was away about twenty minutes—when he returned he got us off the out-building into a person's house—the position of the bed had not been moved since Mrs. Roper's confinement—it was moved about a month before, from behind the door—I mentioned about the bed being removed myself for convenience.
Cross-examined. Q. To get more room for you when your mistress was confined, I suppose. A. Yes—I had attended her in two former confinements, and have known her all her life—I had an opportunity of seeing the prisoner on the former occasions, as well as at the time of the last confinement—he was very affectionate to his wife, and very fond of his children; as far as I saw he was a good husband and father. The first time Mrs. Roper said she smelt something she was not out of bed—she was not in a fit state to get out of bed—I attended to her, and then she laid back again and went to sleep; when she said she smelt fire on the second occasion, I did not notice it—I was very sleepy—when Mr. Roper came into the room, I was undressed, in bed—he was in his night-shirt and drawers; nothing else. The eldest of the little girls who was burnt was about five and a half years old, I think, and the other a year and seven months—it was not my wish that the gas should be left burning in the shop; Mr. Roper did it for my convenience, in case I might want a light in the night—the lamp was suspended from the ceiling with a globe over it—I cannot say whether the globe or bell was broken; I never noticed it—I was not in the shop very often—the room in which Mrs. Roper was confined was furnished—as far as I know, there was no alteration in the furniture from what there had been a month before; I did not see any—the remainder of the house was very decency furnished—there was a double chest of mahogany drawers in the room, with mahogany knobs—I have not seen the cellar where it is suggested the fire began—Mrs. Roper was confined about the time I expected.
Q. Do you remember Mr. Roper's saying anything about its being unlucky that she should have been confined at that moment? A. He said it was rather unfortunate, that he had let his shop—he asked me how soon she would be able to be removed—I told him I could not tell exactly, it was according how she was in her health; I said I thought in about ten or fourteen days—she certainly could not have been moved before without very imminent peril—she was helped out of the window—there is a cistern over the water-closet—I asked her to step on that, thinking it was wood—I was not aware there was water there—she put her foot on it and it gave way—she did not go into the cistern, only a little way; I pulled her back from it when I found what it was—she had spoken to me on the subject of leaving the shop—I had pinned the window-curtains together to keep the draught out—when the prisoner came to wish her good night they were pinned in that way—he took leave of her very affectionately, the same as usual, with affection, but nothing more.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY Q. Has the prisoner a son? A. Yes; a little boy four years old—he was at his grandmother's.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you know that on that very day the boy had been sent for. A. Yes; the grandmother had taken him the morning Mrs. Roper was confined, and he was to come home.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Do you know that yourself? A. Yes; Mrs. Roper said on the Saturday evening that she must have her little Dickey home.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you know, as a fact, whether the child had been sent for on the morning of the day upon which the fire took place? A. Yes; Mrs. Roper wanted him home, but he was very unwell, and did not come.
COURT. Q. How did this occur? A. Mrs. Roper asked her mother on the Saturday morning to let the little boy come home, she should like to have him home, and Mrs. Cowell said she had better let him stay, as he was very unwell.
GEORGE ALLWRIQHT . I am an auctioneer and valuer, residing in Lewisham-road, Greenwich—I knew the prisoner before this fire took place—I heard of the fire on the Sunday morning, and on that day I offered my services to him—I have had experience in making valuations—I saw Mr. Roper on the Monday morning between 10 and 11 o'clock, at Mr. Cowell's, his father-in-law's, in Church-street, Deptford—after some conversation relative to the loss of his children, which he was deploring in a very dreadful way, I said that he had better try and not think anything more about that at present, but give me some account of his loss—he said he did not want to claim anything, although he should be a great loser; nothing could compensate him for the loss of his poor children—he appeared very much distressed indeed in his mind, and it was with that intention almost, that I thought it would be doing the man a charity to call his mind away from it. He asked me what was requisite to be done—I said I should require an inventory of the whole of his goods—he said that he had prepared an inventory when he sent for the agent to insure, and he asked me whether it was not usual for an insurance office to send a surveyor to see whether or not the proposed insurer had got value to the amount which he proposed to insure for—I said it was not usual, for they generally trusted to the agents to fulfil that part of the duty; but I said, as he had so recently made an inventory of his goods, it would serve to refresh his mind—he did not produce the inventory—he has not done so at any time. I asked him how he was insured, whether he was insured properly—he said he could not tell—I then asked him if he could tell the amount of premium he had paid—he said he could not recollect exactly, but he gave me an amount something near it, and I knew, from that he was insured properly—it was doubly hazardous, because it is a very hazardous business, three risks—the premium was 1l. 4s. on 300l.; that would be three risks—I was satisfied from that that he was insured properly—he told me he was insured for 300l.—I said, as he had so recently made out an inventory, it would serve to refresh his memory; and if he would proceed at once to give me the items, I would go on with it—he did so, or rather, I may say, I did it—a claim was afterwards sent in to the insurance office—this (produced) is not the paper upon which I took down the items from him—I took it down in my book—this is it (producing it). It was done in this way—of course, being a valuer, and being used to houses of almost every description, I have a pretty good knowledge of what furniture there may be in any house; and as such, I dictated to him, and said, "Was there so and so?—"Did you have so and so?"—and that was the way in which we got at the items—for instance, I said, "We will begin at the top of the house—to take the first thing, there is a bedstead: what sort of bedstead was it?"—he said, "An Arabian bedstead"—what I took down from him in my memorandum was, "An Arabian bedstead, with white dimity furniture"—then I went on again, "What mattress was there to it?"—just in that way—and he said, "There were two mattresses, and a palliasse;" I have got that—I said, "Was there a mattress?"—"Yes"—"Was there a feather-bed?"—he said, "Two beds; one was a cotton-bed, and one was a feather-bed"—he told me of the palliasse—he also told me there were two pairs of sheets, four blankets, and two counterpanes. I sent this claim in to the insurance company, with this letter annexed—there is also attached to it an acceptance of the company's offer by Mr. Roper—it was written by me, and signed by him—he told me there were six cane-seated chairs, mahogany-tray, dressing-glass, and deal dressing-table.
Q. Did you ask him whether there was this, or did he tell you? A. I asked him—he scarcely told me anything himself, but I knew—there is "a fender and set of fire-irons"—I have not counted the number of items altogether—I dare say there are 209 items altogether, in the different rooms of the house—this is an exact copy of my book—there is a japanned wash-stand and fittings, and Brussels carpet to cover floor, formerly laid down in a much larger room—he told me that—I asked him what carpet it was, and he said a Brussels carpet; and it excited my surprise, a Brussels carpet being in an attic; and I received that explanation, that it was down in a much larger room in a better house; and when he came there he had no other place for it, and put it in the attic—the floor-cloth he also said was in the other house—there are prices put to all these articles; I put them—not all of them without assistance; but the majority of them I did; for instance I did not know the size of the Brussels carpet until I asked him about the probable size of the room; and as he gave me that, I put down the price—I valued the yards, so many yards at so much a yard—he did not tell me the number of yards; he told me the size of the room, as far as he could recollect, which the carpet came from—I said to him, "Was the parlour the carpet came from as large as the room we are in now?" and he said, "Yes, rather larger;" and I then knew it would take more than twenty yards, perhaps twenty-five. I took him through all the rooms in the house—I was with him about two hours and a half—altogether I was with him four hours; but I was about two hours and a half or three hours making this out—this was on the Monday—I was with him from 10 in the morning until he went over to the inquest at 3 in the afternoon—the questions were asked by me, and answers were given by him to all my questions relating to the furniture, as described here—I remember a set of papier mache tea-trays in the parlour, the front room first floor—I asked him about them—I said, "Were there any tea-trays?"—he said, "Yes;" they are charged at 2l. 10s.—there is au item, "A large bouquet of wax flowers, under a glass shade, 2l. 2s."—I asked if he had got any ornaments of any description, and that was given me under that head—there is also an item, "Books, various, 5l."—I asked him about books, and I put the value to them—I said, "Were they worth 5l.?" and he said, "Yes"—there is "a long dinner service complete, of 150 pieces, cost 10l."—I did not put that down—I must give a little explanation with reference to that dinner service, if you will allow me; when he spoke about the dinner service, I asked what sort of dinner service it was; whether it was a long dinner service—he said, yes, he thought it was—I said, "How many pieces were there?"—he said he could not tell; he said there was a quantity of other things which he bought at the same time; and subsequently he said, "Altogether I dare say 150 pieces:" and, consequently, I entered it in my book as "A dinner service complete, etc. etc., 150 pieces"—and he said, "I should think it amounted to from 8 to 10l."—he said altogether the 150 pieces cost him from 8 to 10l.; and I put down 10l.—here is my book with the item entered; "Dinner service complete, etc. etc., 150 pieces"—there are two etceteras—there is a statement in my book of the cost; it is in private marks—they are all private marks—the word "cost" is not there—I have no recollection of how I came to insert the word "cost" in the claim—I had no further conversation with the prisoner about it; I never saw him afterwards—I do not recollect particularly how I came to insert "cost" here—the item, "China tea and coffee service, 7 guineas, bought at Masters's, Deptford-broadway," I inserted from him—I heard from him where it was
bought—I asked him about the items following: the cut-glass celery-stand, water-ewer, two goblets, twelve cut champagne-glasses, twelve wine-glasses, twelve liqueur-glasses, twenty-four tumblers, four cut decanters, and dessert service, 3l. 3s.—I asked him about all those in the same way, and he told me of them—I recollect the "Two glass candlesticks, 4s.;" also the "Suit of fine black, with embroidered trousers and waistcoat, 6l.;" "An Alma coat, lined with silk, 3l. 10s.;" "Dress coat, lined with satin and quilted, and silk sleeves, 4l.;" "One velvet waistcoat, and one silk ditto"—I took that down from him—the "Coburg black dress, 18s." is a woman's dress—I had none of the female's dress from Mr. Roper—they were supplied by his wife's sister—most of his own clothes were stated by himself, of course I could not tell what clothes he had—he gave me those I have described—the stock I took from him—he said he thought there might be near upon fourteen sacks of flour—in the exercise of my duty, I of course endeavour to ascertain the exact amount, so as to be fair between both parties—I made out this inventory on the Monday night—this is an exact copy of my book, as near as possible—all the items he gave me are contained here—he had nothing to do with the letter I sent in; he never saw it—when. I had finished the inventory, I went over to the inquest with him; and the last I saw of him was after the inquest was over; he went into Mr. Waldy's on Royal-hill, where his wife was.
Q. How came you to send the claim in? A. I will tell you—on the Monday night I compared the inventory and the claim, as you see it there, and on Tuesday morning I took it over to Mr. Roper, at Mr. Cowell's—I asked if Roper was in; they said he was walking in the garden—I went to him, and he and Mr. Abbott were together—I said, "I have prepared your inventory and claim, come and sign it"—Mr. Abbott said, "Come up-stairs; "I said, "No"—I knew that the poor children had been brought over from Greenwich the night before, and I said, "Bring a pen and ink down, and do it here"—Abbott went up-stairs and brought a pen and ink down—Mr. Roper held the inventory in his hand, and he sat down on a piece of board that was put there for a garden seat—Abbott brought the pen and ink, and I said, "I want you to put your name there; I have claimed for the whole amount, and I wish it was 500l. instead of 300l.—this is his signature—the value of the items is 483l. 2s. 6d.—that is not the claim; that is the value of the goods—I cannot say that he read the claim before he signed it—I did not read it over to him, or make any explanation of it to him—I told him I had claimed for the full amount, I could do no less, and I was very sorry he was not insured for more money—I told him that before he signed—he did not look at the inventory at all; the only thing was, as he held the paper by the corner, young Mr. Abbott said, "What does it amount to?" I said, "Turn over, and you will find it on the last page, or the last but one," and as he turned it over in his hand his eye caught a double chest of drawers, and he said, "You have only put down 2l. 10s. for that, it cost me more"—I said, "Never mind, here is more claimed, for than you insured for; it is not worth while putting down more money"—the claim is 290l.; that is what I call the full claim—I did not claim for the shed—the shed was insured separately I found, and I did not claim for that—this is the letter in which I made the original claim—I was then acting as the agent for Roper in making the claim.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did he know anything of that letter, or direct you to write it? A. No—the contents were not at all dictated by him—he never saw it; the letter expresses that—I did it on my own
responsibility—(The Inventory was here put in, by which it appeared that the household furniture, linen, and wearing apparel amounted to 365l. 4s., the fixtures and utensils in trade to 36l. 4s., and the stock of shop to 81l. 14s. 6d., making a total of 483l. 2s. 6d. The letter appended was as follows:—"To T. Hodsoll, Esq.—Sir,—I hereby claim from the Kent Fire Insurance office the full amount as set forth in the policy of insurance, viz. on my household furniture, linen, wearing apparel, glass, &c., 200l.; on the fixtures and utensils in trade, 20l.; on the stock in trade, 70l.; total, 290l. September 14, 1858. Signed, Richard Roper.")—I afterwards negotiated with the office about this amount—I went and saw Mr. Sitgrave—I prepared this paper (produced) and showed it to Roper—I eventually agreed to take a sum of 255l.—I communicated that to Roper—I prepared this memorandum, and he signed it—(read: "Deptford, September 17, 1858. Sir,—I hereby agree to accept the amount proposed by you, viz. 200l. on my household effects, 20l. on my fixtures, 35l. on my stock in trade, the salvage to be my property; total amount, 255l. R. Roper.")—the "agreed to" on the top was written at Mr. Sitgrave's office; that means that he, Roper, agreed to it—I was examined before the Coroner and before the Magistrate.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe you were not at all acquainted with the prisoner until this transaction? A. Not personally—I have seen him, and had conversation with him at his shop—I had no personal acquaintance with him whatever, but it being in my way of business, and hearing of the fire, I volunteered my services—he at first said he should not claim at all; he said, what was the use of money to him when he had lost his poor children, it would not bring them back; he could work for more money—I said, "You ought to consider those that are alive"—it was upon that and upon ray persuasion that he went through this business—he never said from the beginning to the end that the whole of these articles were on the premises at the time of the fire—I presumed they were, but he never said so—I have before this been called in to value after fires—before I sent in any claim to the insurance company I went over the premises with a view of judging of the value of the articles upon them—I went twice before I sent in any claim—I went in the afternoon, at the same time as the jury went over to view the ruins, and again the next morning—I was only allowed to take an observation of what I could see, not to touch anything—there is no doubt that there was then property on the premises to the full value of the claim—where I thought I had overvalued, from what I could see, I went and altered my book—there were some things only charred, so that I could actually tell the quality of them from observation; and some of them I found I had put down a little bit too much, more than what was just, in my book, and I altered it—the prisoner knew nothing at all of that—you will find in my book some figures erased and different figures put down—those erasures and alterations were made upon my observation.
Q. Independent of everything that the prisoner stated as having been in the inventory, what would be your opinion of the value of the property burnt upon the premises, from what you were able to observe? A. All that I could see exactly corresponded with what he had given me, what I have taken down—there were things I found that I had not got down at all—there were plenty of articles in the ruins that were not included in my estimate; I should think to the amount of 20l. or 30l.—I had no entry of any bed or table linen—I reserved that to be put under a separate head, but I found that I had got so much in excess of what I could claim for, that I did not enter them; I said it was no use—there was a quantity of blankets and
different things there that I had not got any account of whatever—the 10l. for the dinner-service included other items; he mentioned sets of jugs—they are not down in my inventory in any other form—I have no account of any sort of dinner-service except that, nor any other glass of any description, nor is there any cutlery in the inventory—I have never counted the number of items; I daresay there are 209 entries—I can tell you out of those how many I found traces of—out of 11 in the attic I found traces of 9; in the bedroom out of 26 I found 21; in the front parlour, which was of course destroyed, where the seat of the fire watt, I could trace 11 different things—I have not got the number of things that were there—the attic had fallen through and showed itself on the top; the middle floor was entirely burnt; but the heavy goods, the expanding dining table, the loo table, and those sort of things had been left at the top, and I could see them—on the ground floor I found everything as specified—I did not know anything of the prisoner's character or reputation at Greenwich before this, not personally—I have only been to his shop, and had conversation with him.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. You say you found remains—did you find the remains of either glass or crockery? A. I had no opportunity to see, I was not allowed to examine the ruins; the fireman said, "You must not touch a thing"—I said, "I merely want to come in to correct as far as possible the inventory I have got, so as to make a claim for it"—that was both on Monday and Tuesday—I was there about an hour on Monday afternoon, and very nearly the same time on Tuesday morning, but of course I was not allowed to touch anything—that is invariably the case at a fire, therefore I could not have a strict search; all 1 could do was to correct my inventory as far as I was able, from what I could see.
COURT. Q. Am I to understand that your only acquaintance with the prisoner was occasionally seeing him? A. Yes, in the shop as I might pass I might go in and talk with him—I know other parts of his family very well, I know his brothers.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Who is Abbott? A. A young man who was at Mr. Cowell's; I never saw him before the fire—I do not know whether he is any relation of the prisoner.
WILLIAM SITGRAVE . I am an auctioneer and appraiser. I was employed to investigate the prisoner's claim by Mr. Hodsoll, the accredited surveyor to the Kent Fire office; he happened to be out of town at the time, and I transacted his business for him—on the Tuesday after the fire, the claim that had been sent in was put into my hands, and on the Thursday I went to the ruins and made an examination—I could trace some of the house-hold furniture that had been claimed for; of some all traces were gone—I could only trace a small proportion comparatively with the number of articles claimed, perhaps not one article out of six or eight, (referring to a memorandum)—I traced the things in the attic, a portion of them—I found the remains of the bedstead, and some of the bedding—I could not trace the whole of the things by a very large proportion—I could not find any traces of china, glass, dinner, or dessert service; I found a small portion of common blue and white ware, but certainly nothing like a dinner, dessert, or tea service,—I could trace no portion—I have been in the habit of examining ruins for upwards of thirty years—traces of china glass, and such things would be found, broken and smashed to pieces, but I did not find a dinner-service by following the patterns—I did not find a vestige of a book; books are to be found after a fire—it is very difficult to burn books, they will char all round, but you will find the centre will not
burn, you may read the title—I saw traces of about half a sack of flour,—if there had been fourteen sacks of flour on the premises when the fire took place, I think I must have found traces of pretty well all—the action of the water and the fire will calcine the floor so that you cannot destroy the whole of it—I found traces of a very small portion of the wearing apparel at my first view—I found a small portion of it in the wardrobe—I should have expected to find traces of the greater portion, especially of the man's wearing apparel; the waistbands of the trousers, and the backs and collars of the coats; it is a very hard matter to burn such things as those—there was no fire-place in the attic—I think the model will show that.
Cross-examined. Q. You yourself, after this examination, advised the office to pay the prisoner 255l.? A. I did.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. Upon what calculation did you do that? A. The wearing apparel I considered was very much overcharged, being charged to the amount of 165l. altogether—I reduced that to 80l., and the furniture I made up to 192l. and the other items I made up out of the stock and utensils; that was on the assumption that the whole of the things claimed for, were there, with the exception of three articles—I certainly did not go into the thing with minuteness, owing to the unfortunate circumstances of the prisoner losing his children—I of course sympathised with him, and I treated the thing extraordinarily liberally in my opinion; my instructions from the office are to treat these things liberally—my calculation was based on the assumption that all the things were there, except three articles—those were the fender and fire irons in the attic—I grounded my opinion as to them, upon the fact that there was no fire place there, therefore I concluded there was no fender or fire-irons—the others were the feather bed in the front room, and the kitchen utensils charged at 3l. which were not injured.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you reject the double chest of drawers alleged to have been in the back-room? A. I did not, I put down the full price they were charged for.
COURT. Q. What did you put down as the value of the salvage? A. I did not take it into consideration, I agreed to give it up to the claimant—I did not put any value upon it at all—I did not hear of any goods having been removed before the fire, until after I had been subpoenaed as a witness at the inquest—I have put a value to the whole of the things with the exception of three articles.
JAMES DENHAM . I am a com dealer residing in Wellington-street, Deptford—I have known the prisoner from quite a lad—in June 1857 I stocked his shop at Royal-hill, Greenwich—the stock that I supplied him with then amounted to about 60l. or 70l., he paid me 30l. of that the following week—the stock consisted of flour, straw, and general stock—in November 1857, he owed me a sum of 118l.—I spoke to him about it, and from that time refused to give him credit; I told him he must pay me for the things that were supplied from that time—I have been in the habit from that time of supplying him with things for the purposes of his shop from time to time—on an average I supplied him with perhaps five sacks of flour in a week—I heard of the fire taking place—on the Saturday morning before that he had sent his lad for one sack of flour, and another in the afternoon; Morris also fetched that—when the fire took place the 118l. was still owing to me—the prisoner did not make me any offer with regard to getting rid of that debt; he at one time said would I like to have the business, and I declined it—nothing was said about the
sum, we did not go into any agreement; he merely said it to me, and I declined it—one shop was sufficient for me to look after.
Cross-examined. Q. In fact he offered to dispose of his business to you when he found that he was indebted to you? A. Not exactly at that time, but some time afterwards—I declined it at once—he was a man bearing a respectable character before this, I never heard anything against him—I knew him in his family relations—I considered him to be a good husband, and a good father, and that he loved his children—I had never pressed him for the 118l.—I treated him in a friendly manner, I wished him to get on, and I was helping him as far as laid in my power—I advised him to keep as good a stock as he could on his premises, I left him with a good stock; he was not bound down to me in any way—he paid me different sums at different times, he sent cash for what he sent for—he appeared to be engaged in his business and anxious to get on in it.
ROBERT MURRELL . I am a corn dealer and live at 4, Creek-road, Deptford—the prisoner had dealings with me—on the Friday before the fire I supplied him with a quarter of a load of straw, nine trusses—it was on credit.
Cross-examined. Q. Had you sold him straw before? A. Yes; I never sold him a less quantity than that, I have sold him larger quantities—he generally paid ready money, until about a fortnight before the fire, when he came over and bought a larger quantity, and asked if I had any objection to give him credit, and I said certainly not to any amount—he had always paid for things he had from us before, and of course if he had asked me for credit for a great deal more, I should have given it—I did not know much about him, but I saw him two or three times, and believed him to be a very respectable man.
MARY COWELL . I am the mother of the prisoner's wife, and live at 7, James's-place, Deptford. I remember the fire—some short time before that, the girl Waterfall had been in the habit of bringing things to our house—the day Mr. Roper let his shop, in the evening she brought about a dozen plates in the perambulator—that was the first time she brought anything—it was on the Tuesday evening, she came with the perambulator and the two children—the next day, Wednesday, she came four times—she brought things each time—she brought a dinner service, she brought part of it each time—I do not know whether she brought the large dishes that day—between that time and the fire, she brought it all as far as I recollect—I took some of them in myself—I put them in the back parlour on the sofa as she brought them in, until I had convenient time, and then I placed them in a box in the back parlour—I did not receive the dessert service; I know it was there, I saw it, and a case of wax flowers was there—I saw one sack containing books, two parlour lamps, and three paper tea-trays—there were some earthenware jugs, they were not real china, only mock, three were brought to my house—I saw a scent bottle, and a tea pot—I know that all those things belonged to my son-in-law—they were all afterwards given up to the police.
Cross-examined. Q. How long has Mr. Roper been married to your daughter? A. I cannot say correctly, I think about seven years—he has been a kind and affectionate husband to her, and an excellent father to his children—he has always been a respectable man, I believe, and highly esteemed by everybody until this affair happened—I learnt from Mr. Roper him self the reason why the things were sent to my premises—that was before they were removed; he gave me this reason, he came to my house
and said, "Mother, I have let the shop"—I said, "You have? I am glad of that; what have you let it for?"—he said, "130l., and take the stock—my wife wished me to ask you if you would take in the crockery, because we had so many things broken coming from Plaistow here, and she wishes to pack them herself, because she looks every hour, and she wants to pack them to send them away"—I never saw my daughter but once while the things were being sent to my premises; she knew of their coming—it was her wish for her husband to ask me to take them in, to take charge of them.
ELIZA COWELL . I am the daughter of the last witness, and live with her at 7, James-place, Deptford—I remember, on the Wednesday or Thursday before the fire took place, Mr. Roper's boy bringing two boxes on a truck—I asked him to bring them into the house—I believe they contained china, as I heard them rattle in bringing them in—I also saw some wax flowers in our house, and one sack of books—on the Saturday before the fire, the servant Waterfall came—I met her in the passage—she had her master's writing-desk—she told me so—I think it was between 6 and 7 in the evening—it was not quite dark—the desk was left there.
Cross-examined. Q. You are the sister of Mrs. Roper? A. Yes—I learnt from Mr. Roper why these things were sent to our house; he told us that he had let his business—he did not say that in the presence of his wife—he came to our house, and my mother and myself were at home—my sister was expecting to be confined every day—I used to go and visit her once or twice a week—my father is a tailor, and my brother also—they made things for Mr. Roper—they always have made things for him—he had a great many things—Mrs. Roper had been a dressmaker—she had a good stock of things—I have assisted her in making them—I am a dress-maker and milliner—I know that my sister had a good stock of wearing apparel—I am quite certain of it—they lived in better premises and in better style at Plaistow—I have seen much of them together—he is indeed a good father and a good husband—we took charge of the little boy the same day upon which my sister was confined—he was too unwell to go back, or he would have been returned on the Saturday—I heard an offer made by Miss Morton to take one of the other children during my sister's confinement, and Mr. Roper declined, and Mrs. Roper likewise.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Was it Mr. or Mrs. Roper that declined? A. I believe they both declined—I was there.
CHARLES COWELL . I am the prisoner's father-in-law—I removed a glass shade and wax flowers from the prisoner's house, on the Thursday before the fire, I think—I did not myself remove anything else before the fire—at the latter end of August, I pledged some articles for Mrs. Roper; silver sugar-tongs and forks, twelve or fourteen plated spoons, a bread knife, a decanter and stand, one or two gowns, to the best of my knowledge; and a small frock, wrapped up in a drab curtain, I think—I also pledged a coat and two waistcoats, belonging to the prisoner, at a pawnbrokers, named Barr—I pledged them in the names of Brown and Bircham—I handed the money to Mrs. Roper—I cannot exactly say how much I got altogether—I think it was just upon 3l.—the articles have since been produced, and I have seen them.
Cross-examined. Q. Do I understand you to say that it was by your daughter's request you did so? A. Yes—Mr. Roper was not present on any occasion—she did not tell me why she desired them pawned.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE to MARY COWELL. Q. Did you, in the
prisoner's presence, offer that your daughter should be confined at your house? A. Yes—he said no; he did not think his wife would like to leave her children, he thanked me all the same.
CORNELIUS DAVIES . I live at Eustace-place, Woolwich—I am married to the prisoner's sister. On the Friday week before the fire, Mrs. Roper gave me a carpet-bag to take charge of; that wag at the prisoner's house—I took it to my house—I afterwards unpacked it—it contained glass—there were four decanters, a celery glass, a water ewer, two goblets, three dozen wine glasses, and some champagne glasses—I afterwards pledged them for 2l. at the request of Mrs. Roper, and gave her the money—I pledged them at Mr. Burt's, Powis-street, Woolwich.
Cross-examined. Q. Mr. Roper was not present at the time, was he? A. No; I never had any communication with him on the subject—this was on the Friday week previous to the fire—I am now working as a labourer in the Woolwich Arsenal—I never was a bricklayer; I was a glazier—I had something to do with repairing these premises of Mr. Roper's, at the time he took them—I assisted in the shop—the ceiling immediately over the shop was canvas papered and then painted—the canvas was nailed to the rafters of the shop—it was from that ceiling that the lamp was suspended—on the wall on the right-hand side upon entering the door there was also canvas, but the left-hand I think not—I think at the side it was lath and plaster under the canvas—there was no lath and plaster to the ceiling—the prisoner paid me no direct wages for what I did, being his relative, and not being in employment at the time—I was there to assist him, as a friend or relative, without any direct regard to wages—I was paid some trifle—there was money expended on the house by Mr. Roper—there was a front put to the shop, at considerable expense, and the inside was thoroughly fitted by him; everything new and appropriate to the business upon which he was about to enter—it was originally a hairdresser's, and had to be turned into a corn-chandler's—the fittings alone, I should say, must have cost from 30l. to 40l. at a rough guess; the alterations altogether, window and all, I should say, cost not less than 70l.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Did he employ any trades people to do this? A. Yes; he employed a joiner to do the work in his line—his name is Jones; he lives in the neighbourhood; and he employed painters and grainers to grain and paint the inside, and to write the name over the facia of the shop—it was a corn-chandler's business—bins were fitted up to receive grain, and a counter and one or two shelves—I can't swear exactly what he paid me—I was living over the water at the time—he paid me simply my expenses in crossing and re-crossing the water, which would amount in the whole but to a trifle.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did he keep you? A. Yes, decidedly.
THOMAS OLIVER . I am assistant to Mr. Marson, a pawnbroker in Turpin-lane, Greenwich. I produce a velvet maroon mantle and other things—part were pledged on 29th April; they have remained with me ever since—I have also a bundle of articles pledged on 3d September by Mr. Cowell; three petticoats, seven frocks, a gown, four pairs of drawers, a cap, a child's cloak, a sheet, and a parasol—I advanced 1l. on them.
HENRY BULL . I produce a gown, a frock, and curtains, pawned on 28th August for 7s. in the name of Richard Brown, by Mr. Cowell—at the same time he pledged a black Coburg gown for 5s.—on 7th September a velvet cape for 10s., and a coat and two waistcoats for 12s.—the coat and waistcoat were redeemed on 16th September, four days after the fire.
WILLIAM THOMAS BURT . I am with my father, a pawnbroker at Woolwich. On 4th September some articles of glass were pawned at our shop by Cornelius Davis—we advanced 2l. on them—they consisted of four decanters, a celery glass, a water ewer, two goblets, thirty-six wine-glasses, liqueur and champagne glasses—I have them all here.
GEORGE WILSON . I am an inspector of police—I received from Mrs. Cowell a quantity of crockery—it is outside; I can produce it—I have a list of the things—there is a dinner-service complete, and a dessert-service complete—I have not got the number of pieces—a china tea-service, two moderator lamps, a model of a ship, a glass globe and stand containing wax flowers, a set of three china jugs, three tea trays, a metal tea-pot, a plated cruet stand and cruets, six half-pint glass tumblers, six wine glasses, four glass salts, four glass pickle-dishes, two glass knife-rests, two glass candle-sticks, a set of three blue and white jugs, a milk jug, an earthenware stand, a glass mug, six egg-cups, a dozen small china plates, a fancy glass scent-bottle, an earthenware toast-rack, sixty-three books of various sorts, one account-book, six empty sacks, and two packing-cases—these were given up to me by Mrs. Cowell as belonging to Mr. Roper—on 20th September I went to a Mrs. Cook's to inquire after the writing-desk—at that time no charge had been made against Mr. Roper; we were then making inquiries—I did did not take the desk from Mrs. Cook—I sealed it, and put some tape round it.
EMILY COOK . I am the wife of William Cook, and am a sister of the prisoner. On the Tuesday or Wednesday night after the fire I remember a desk being brought to my house—I cannot say which night it was—it was brought by my brother and Mr. Cowell, senior—I can't say exactly the hour, but it was after 8 and before 11—my brother slept at my house that night—he slept at my house from the time of the fire, thirteen nights, I think—the desk was wrapped up in a blue handkerchief when it was brought—I remember Wilson the inspector, coming, to my house—I think it was on the Monday afterwards—he came to ask me about the desk—I had removed it over to a neighbour's, next door—I had been examined that day before the coroner—I gave the desk to the neighbour over the palings at the back of the house—in consequence of what the inspector said I went and fetched it from the neighbour's—the inspector put a piece of tape round it, and sealed it—I saw my brother that night—I do not think I mentioned about the desk that night, for he was so very ill at the time—I mentioned it next morning, and he was very angry with me for removing it—he said there was no need to do anything of the kind, as there was nothing in it of any consequence; if he thought there were any papers in it that could assist him he should open it—I think those were his words, or something to that purport—I suppose I made a casual remark to him about the inspector having sealed it, I think perhaps I did—I think I told him that he had better not open it, as it was left at my house, I thought he had better leave it untouched—he did not open it then—towards the end of the week he opened it—I do not think he took anything from it—I was present.
Cross-examined. Q. Did he give you any directions not to give it up, or to conceal it at all? A. No, not at all.
pieces he had, but the price of a large service would be about four guineas—that would be 124 pieces—I also sold him a tea-service of this pattern—he had two lots of that; the first lot came to about two guineas, and the second lot came to 2l. 9s. 6d.
ELIZABETH WATERFALL . I was in the prisoner's service close upon two years—I was in his service at the time of the fire—shortly before the fire I received several things from the prisoner's house to take to Mr. Cowell's house at Deptford—I began to take them on the Monday night—I think I first took a dozen plates on the Monday night—I went several times from that time to the time of the fire—I took a few articles at a time; it was in the evening part, at dusk—the prisoner told me to take them to Mr. Cowell's, but I was not to tell any one—I remember the large dishes being moved—Mr. Roper moved them himself—I remember the stand of wax flowers, they used to stand on the table in the front parlour up stairs—they were removed on the Wednesday night by Mr. Cowell—I remember a quantity of glass that used to be on the sideboard in the front parlour—I missed the glass on the Friday before the fire—I did not miss the decanters—on the Friday week before the fire I saw a bundle tied up, it was a largish bundle; it looked like clothes wrapped up—it was bound up in some white dimity—Mr. Cowell came there that evening—I remember that same day dusting Mrs. Roper's bedroom—I dusted the wardrobe—in doing that I opened the drawers where she used to keep her dresses, in order to dust the ledges, and I saw that the dresses were gone; they were silk dresses—I also saw a pawn-ticket—some books were removed before the fire—I remember holding the sacks for some books to be put in—there were two sacks—I am quite sure there were two sacks of books—Mr. Roper put them in—I remember a writing-desk being removed, that was on the Saturday night about eight o'clock, the night of the fire—I did that by Mr. Roper's direction—he told me to take the writing-desk to Mrs. Cowell's; it was rather heavy—it was wrapped in a little bundle handkerchief—I removed two globes on the Friday—the boy removed the lamps in the basket, on the Saturday night of the fire—I remember the prisoner giving me some directions about getting some turps—it was about eleven o'clock at night that I got it; but he had told me about it in the evening part—he told me to get some turps, and see how they sold it, and I got half a pint—I asked him how much I was to get, and he said, "You will see how they sell it"—nothing was said about how much I was to get—he gave me sixpence and a bottle; it was a large white glass bottle—I have got turps for him before—there was a bottle in which I used to get it, but this was a bottle I had never had before—it was larger—I went and fetched some turps—I got half a pint, at Mrs. Harding's, in London-street, Greenwich, that is an oil shop—a young woman served me—I have been to the shop since—Maria Harding was the person who served me—when I had got the turps I brought it back, and gave it to the prisoner—I don't know what he did with it—I gave it to him, and he said, "Have you brought so much as that?"—I told him how much there was—this (produced) is the bottle I used to fetch the turps in—in two or three pennyworths—the bottle I got the sixpennyworth in was larger than this, and it was a flat bottle, something similar to this (looking at one)—I had never got as much as half a pint of turps before—Mr. Roper said he wanted it to clean the bookcase with—I had never seen him cleaning the furniture himself—I went up stairs that night about twelve
o'clock—I stayed in Mrs. Roper's room about ten minutes, and then I went up to bed—the prisoner went up at the same time; we both went up together—before he went up, I observed that he turned the gas three parts off—I had not been down in the cellar that day, nor the day before—I had not been down there for three or four days—there was no gas in the cellar—when I went up stairs to bed, as far as I can judge, everything was safe—I was awoke by the prisoner after having gone to bed—he called "Lizzy" twice—I said, "Yes, sir," and got out of bed, and went to the door, and opened it—I had not smelt any smell of fire before that—when I opened the door I saw the flames at the bottom of the stairs—the heat was so great I ran to the window—I climbed out of the window, and was ultimately saved by the fire-escape from the roof—I have seen all the things that have been produced here to day—I know the desk, it is the desk I have been speaking of—this is my master's dinner-service, and the glass, and the wax-flowers—I have since seen the things which were pawned—all the things I have seen were my master's.
Cross-examined. Q. You say you generally fetched only one or two pennyworth of turps? A. Yes, two pennyworth would about three-parts fill this bottle, I should think—I was not accustomed to fill even, this bottle—the six pennyworth did not fill the other one.
Q. How came you to buy half a pint? who told you to do it? A. Mr. Roper told me to get some turps—I did not get the usual quantity, as I thought the bookcase would take a good drop, that was the reason I bought five pennyworth—it was fivepence the half pint—I had a sixpenny piece—I had not known in the morning that the furniture was going to be cleaned—I did not mention on the Sunday morning that I had to clean the furniture the next day—I swear that—I remembered this turps after I had been examined half a dozen times—I did not think of it at first—I did not say on the Sunday that I was going to clean the furniture the next day—Mr. Roper said on the Saturday night "I want you to get some turps, and we will clean the book-case"—I generally cleaned the furniture—I believe the boy Morris took away the two sacks of books—directly there was the alarm of lire I got out of the window as quickly as I could.
Q. You left the little baby in bed to be burnt? A. Yes; I could not save her—I did not try; if I had it would have been all the same—it was a child of a year and a half old whom I nursed.
MR. PARRY. Q. You say if you had tried to save her, it would have been all the same, why would it have been all the same? A. If I had tided to save them, I should have lost my own life—when I first heard the alarm the flames were at the bottom of the stairs—that was when I heard my master cry out—I did not state about the turps for some time; I did not think of it.
MARIA HARDING . My father keeps an oil and colour shop in London-street, Greenwich—on the Saturday night before the fire, we shut up at eleven o'clock—I recollect selling some turpentine before we shut up the shop that night to a young woman—I cannot say who she was—I sold her half a pint—it came to fivepence—she paid me sixpence, and I gave her a penny change—I think it was just before eleven o'clock—I have a reason for recollecting it.
Cross-examined. Q. Did she ask what the price of turpentine was, or only ask for half a pint. A. I do not remember whether she asked the price—I don't remember what passed.
mouths before the fire—I remember on the Wednesday before the fire removing two boxes and two sacks—I did not know what they contained—I took them to Mrs. Cowell's at Deptford—it was about half-past seven in the evening, just getting dusk—on the Friday following I took a clothes basket with something in it to the same house—I did not know what was in it, but I noticed some oil running from it as I was taking it along—I think it was Mr. Roper who told me to take it—on that same day I brought a quarter of a load of straw from Mr. Murrell's on a barrow—I think it was put in the shop—it was placed at the end of the shop, almost by the back door—I gave them to Mr. Roper—they were put in the shop, I believe—I saw them there afterwards (referring to the model)—they were put about here, by the back door—there is a trap door there, it goes down into the cellar—sometimes the straw was kept in the shop, and sometimes it was put in the cellar—the trap door was for the purpose of putting straw into the cellar—I do not know how much there was on the premises before I brought the nine trusses—I had not been into the cellar for two or three days—I know the steps which lead to the cellar from the shop—after the fire I saw some straw at the bottom of these steps, it was lying cross-ways at the foot of the steps, underneath the steps (describing it)—I should say the cellar would hold two or three loads of straw—I left the shop on the Saturday night before the fire, about ten minutes past eleven—there was about half a sack of flour in the shop—I remember fetching two sacks of flour from Mr. Denham's on the Saturday—I do not think there was any more flour in the house at that time—there may have been a very little, a few bags in the window—when I left, about ten minutes past eleven, there was about half a sack of flour left at the end of the counter, and a few paper bags in the window; that was all the flour we had on the premises, the rest had been sold in the day—I should say there was about a bushel of peas, not quite a bushel, and a bushel of beans, altogether about half a sack of peas and beans—on the afternoon after the fire I saw Mr. Roper, that was on the Sunday, about half-past three o'clock—he told me if any one asked me any questions I was to tell them I knew nothing—he told me if I knew of any persons who owed him money, would I call upon them—I was acquainted with most of his customers—he did not tell me when I was to go—he told me to call upon him at ten next morning.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know of a water-pipe bursting? A. There was one burst some time before the fire, in the next yard; the water did run a little into the cellar—I do not remember the straw being removed from the front to the back in consequence—I should say that was almost a month before the fire—I do not know that there was a change made in the disposition of the straw in consequence of the water—there was damp in the cellar some time before that, before the straw had been put there—after the water-pipe had burst, water had got into the cellar—that was before the straw was ever placed there—what my master told me on the Sunday was, if anybody asked me any questions, I was to tell them I knew nothing—I do not know what questions; he did not say—he did not tell me what I was to know nothing about; I did not know what be meant—I did not know anything, only what stock was in the shop, and that—he did not tell me I was to say nothing about the stock in the shop; that was what I thought he meant—I thought I was not to tell how much stock was in the shop—I think Mr. Jones, Mrs. Cowell, and Miss Davis were present when he said it—the whole lot of us were not crying—Mr. Roper was crying a little—I don't think the others were—it was in the midst of his tears that he told
me I was not to know anything—he sobbed it out—I do not know whether his account-books were burnt—I do not know that he said so—I think he did; I will not be sure—I think he did say his account-books were burnt—that was the reason he sent me round, because I knew the customers—I am almost sure he did say the account-books were burnt—I got some money; I do not know how much—I did not put it down—I do not think Mrs. Roper was present when the things were taken out of the house—she did not tell me to take some of the things away—Mr. Roper gave me the sacks and the boxes to take—I do not remember Mrs. Roper telling me to take anything away—I will not swear that she did not tell me to take these very boxes away—I do not remember that she told me to take some things away—I will not swear that she did not; I can't remember—I am now at Mr. Biggs's, a dyer at Greenwich—I know that persons came to the prisoner's shop before the fire, wanting to take it, and the business; I know there were several applications—there was a bell to the lamp that hung up in the shop—it was broke—I do not know who broke it—it was broken some time before the fire—it had not been mended or replaced—I was not sleeping on the premises the night of the fire—I went away about ten minutes past 11—I swept up the shop, before I went away, by my master's orders—he ordered me to sweep the shop before I left—I did not throw some straw down the steps before I left—I did not see my master do so—I saw some straw there once or twice, on a Monday morning, when I came—it had not been there on the Saturday, when I left—I had seen the straw lying on the steps, on one or two occasions—I believe my master did that to make more room in the shop on the Sunday—the sitting-room had been papered about a week before—I do not know whether that was done by my master—there was a sink in the wash-house, that had been removed, and a new one ordered—I don't know when it was to come—I know I took the old one away, and a new one had been ordered—I took away the things I have spoken of, about half-past 7 at night, when I had done my work.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Whatever you thought about what the prisoner told you, are you quite sure that he did use the words to you, which you have told us: that, if anybody asked you any questions, you were to know nothing? A. Yes—I went and collected monies for him afterwards, and did what I could to help him—I heard of the fire on the Sunday morning—if there had not been a fire, I should have come to my work on the Monday morning—I had not been dismissed, or had any quarrel with Mr. Roper.
RICHARD PEDDER . I am in the service of the Phoenix Gas Company—between 10 and 11 o'clock on the Sunday morning of the fire, I went to the prisoner's house, to take away the gas-meter—I found it under the window in the shop; it was partly burnt to pieces—the key was under the cock—the gas was full on.
Q. If the jets in the prisoner's shop and back parlour had been turned three quarters off, would any pressure at the meter have any effect at the jet, so as to thrust the flame out? A. No; a pressure on the main would make the jets increase in size—I can't say to what extent; a little, not much.
Cross-examined. Q. At what time is the gas turned off throughout Greenwich on Saturday night, late, is it not? A. I cannot say; I have nothing to do with turning the gas on or off.
the Sunday—I got there about 5 o'clock—the fire was then stopped; it was not exactly out; there was some fire there—it smouldered for an hour or so—after the fire I took charge of the ruins until the following Tuesday week, when I handed over possession to a fireman named Smart—nothing had been taken from the ruins when I gave up possession to Smart.
Cross-examined. Q. You did not stay all night, did you? A. No; I went away from about half-past 5 to 6 at night, and returned in the morning—while I was there a few persons might come into the back yard, persons knowing the Ropers, merely coming in to look; they could not see the ruins from the front—I saw Mr. Allwright there on three different, occasions, examining the salvage—I did not make any examination with a view to ascertain the cause of the fire.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. At first there was no suspicion that anything was wrong? A. No; when I went away at night, I locked the place up, and gave the key to the police.
THOMAS SMART . I am a fireman in the service of the parish of Greenwich—I have been a fireman for twenty years—on 21st September I was placed in charge of the ruins at the prisoner's house—I have been in the habit of forming a judgment as to the origin of fires—I have seen premises just after they have been burnt down—on Friday, 22d October, I went down into the cellar for the first time—the cellar was accessible before that at one part, the flap at the back of the shop, but not the steps, where it was choked up with rubbish—I removed the rubbish from there—I found that the steps were nearly consumed—the bottom step was not consumed—they were wooden steps—I am speaking of the step-ladder; that went from the shop into the cellar—I produce the bottom stair of the first flight—it was a step-ladder; there was no stair there—there was no staircase from the shop to the cellar, merely a step-ladder—there was a staircase leading up stairs, just above the step-ladder, leading from the shop to the upper part of the house—this is the bottom step (produced); the other part was totally consumed—when I went down, having cleared away the rubbish, I found part of some hay and straw, lying cross ways on the steps (referring to the model)—under this part of the flooring the straw was totally consumed—the flooring was very much burnt at one part—it runs about two feet six from the bottom step—the flooring was charred more or less; further on here it was not charred, on account of the straw not being consumed—this piece of paper describes the position of the straw under the step, and part of a truss of straw was lying on the top of the step—I cannot say how many treads there were to the steps; they run nine inches apart—I dare say there were nine or ten—there was straw lying underneath the ladder—the wood-work of the other parts of the cellar was charred, and the roof also, more or less—I have seen this model before; it exactly represents the roof of the cellar as I saw it burnt in October—I am able to say that the fire came from below, because, if it had come from the top, it would have burnt the contrary way—the hole underneath was rather larger than at the top—I saw no other straw, or truss of straw in the cellar, except what is produced here—I examined to see whether there were traces of straw in the shop, and could not find any, and I should say that they had not been removed or examined before I looked—if the fire had commenced in the shop above, and any rafters or wood had fallen from above into the cellar, it might have set fire to the straw; but the rubbish would have fallen on it and smothered it, and so much of the straw would not have been consumed—there are five holes burnt in the floor (pointing out, by the model, their position with regard to the staircase)—we got the fire well under by a quarter to 5; and if it began in the cellar, the heat would be very great there—if the flame had gone up from the cellar, it would, no doubt, have gone up rapidly and with intensity, and it would then have ascended the staircase of the house—supposing the fire originated there, that would be the first place it would go to—this (produced) is the bottom step of the first flight; the fire coming from the cellar, this part was burnt; it was situated next to the opening—if the fire came from the cellar, it would catch this opening, and not the other; it was charred underneath—I can say that the fire originated in the cellar, at the bottom of the steps.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I suppose you form that opinion after the fullest judgment on the subject? A. Yes; I made no inquiries—I took my own judgment—it is merely from what I observed myself that I form this opinion, and express it with certainty to-day—I have not found where the gas was and have never inquired—I did not think about it—I was so satisfied that the fire originated in the cellar that I made no further inquiry—I do not think it material, because the fire originated in the cellar, and there was no gas there—if the fire had originated in the shop I should—the floor between the shop and bed-room was made of wood—I think the ceiling was partly canvased, but that was entirely consumed as I hear—as a scientific fireman, I do not think canvas painted over would go into a blaze, it would smoulder—I think all the virtue of the paint, the oil, and the turps, would be out—I have tried a piece since—I do not think it probable that it occurred in that way, but I tried it for my own curiosity—there had been an argument whether the canvass would burn or not, and I tried a piece which I got out of the shop—it was part of the wall—there was a piece of canvas and paper left on the right-hand wall of the shop—I tried that and it would not burn—I did not think that it might have happened in that way, but I tried it as a matter of curiosity—it is my opinion that the fire began underneath the stairs—the effect of that would be of course to reach the stairs from the sitting-room to the bed-room, and cutoff all communication between the street and the people who were above—it generally travels up the stairs, but it might have got to the shop—I should think it went up the staircase and into the shop at the same time—it would got up the steps into the shop—I suppose that the stairs below would immediately ignite and it would be carried up the staircase in that way—I have got no part of the actual flooring here to show how the holes were burnt—that was taken away to the builders I believe—I form some opinion from the appearance presented by the holes in the flooring—they were larger at the bottom than at the top, and I consider that an important matter, but I was not empowered to keep the flooring—the Kent Fire-office authorized me to keep this—the flooring was probably just as important, but I was ordered to take possession of this and not of the other, and it was taken away by the builders—Mr. Henderson, the fireman, also saw the holes—I think he is here—I account for the shop-floor remaining almost perfect while the floor immediately above was burnt, by the rubbish falling down—that protected the shop floor—I said that I believed it remained in the same state as it was in September, but the rubbish had been shifted previous to my seeing it at all; and a portion of the sifted ruins had been shot into the cellar, but not this part, not the straw part—I say so from the manner in which I found it—there was three feet of rubbish above the straw that proved that it had never been touched—the straw was below, and the rubbish above; from which I
deduce, that the fire originated there—I do not believe that that was rubbish which was shot in afterwards, but will not swear it.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. I need hardly ask you, supposing the upper parts were burnt, if they would fall on the shop-floor and protect it? A. Yes; the roof fell in when the house was partly burnt—the house was gutted—I am fully satisfied, that when I examined the cellar it was in the same state as when the fire subsided—I think Mr. Ingle was there at the time—I tried to burn the piece of canvas—I do not think he was the arguer as to whether it would burn, but he was present—this model, as it now is, was not shown to Mr. Ingle in my presence—the flooring here represents the state of the roof as I have discovered it.
COURT. Q. What is this door? A. That leads down to the cellar, and the steps come here—this exactly represents the state of things I saw—the burner was over the centre of the shop—this is the shop-door, and this is a flap against the back-door of the shop.
RICHARD HENDERSON . I have been a foreman in the London Fire Brigade 19 years, and have been 29 years in the service—I am in no way connected with the Kent Fire-office, nor with, Smart or Lilley—I was at the prisoner's house about 5 o'clock on the morning the fire occurred. On 24th and 25th October I went to the ruins to examine them—that was before the examination before the Magistrate—I have not the least doubt whatever of the fire having begun in the cellar under the cellar stairs—this flooring (taking it out of the model) exactly represents the state of the flooring as I saw it—I believe the holes to have been made from underneath, from the flame coming under here—the fire appeared to have gone up the stairs, through the roof, and through the roof of the adjoining house—it was all down when I arrived at 5 o'clock—I saw the remains of four or five trusses of straw, and from that there must have been a great body of fire shot up—if turpentine was put on the straw, it would aid the rapidity and intensity very much.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. A. Is it not very difficult to obliterate the smell of turpentine? A. The fire will consume the smell, it will go into black smoke—the holes in the floor may have come from above or below, they might be from rubbish falling—I say that the fire originated under the stairs in the cellar, from finding the remains, and the traces of straw—I know where the ladder steps are; supposing that there was straw here in the shop, immediately in the neighbourhood of the steps, and it ignited, it would not have burnt so fast—supposing that the flames, or particles of burnt straw had gone down, it would then have ignited the straw in the cellar, but the aperture would have been blocked up with rubbish, if the fire had begun in the shop—if there had been a smouldering in the shop, and the fire had extended to the straw below, the smoke would have alarmed them, and if the fire had arisen in the shop, it would not have burnt so fast, the straw acted as a funnel to it—if the gas lamp had ignited the ceiling, and the fire had gone on smouldering, it might have originated that way—it is not impossible that it begun in the shop—supposing some of the burning straw had dropped down the stair-case before the shop itself was in flames, the whole thing might have been occasioned if there was no opposition, but I will not undertake to say whether there was lath and plaster, or not; it depends upon what was there—I have no doubt that it originated below—I do not know that supposing some of the straw had got ignited, and had tumbled down the stairs on to the stairs below, and set light to the straw, it would have produced the appearances I have described; I believe that the
stairs were fired underneath, and not at the top, as they are all consumed; there was hardly a particle of them left—I did not see it before October—I do not know whether it had not been turned topsy turvy, I did not know that there was a cellar there till I went down—I found the rubbish had been turned over—I was sent on the Saturday afterwards; the inspector of police asked me to go—I went alone—when I arrived there I found a boy there—there was no one else on the premises; it was Smart's boy, who was in charge for him while he was gone to the premises.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. If the fire had begun in any part of the shop, either the walls or the ceiling, from the ignition of gas, would you not have expected to find the flooring of the shop burnt? A. The floor above I should; not the floor below—I have seen several fires through escapes of gas, and the result has been, that the flooring of the room over has been burnt four or five feet from the heat.
CHARLES HEISCH . I am professor of chemistry at the Middlesex Hospital—supposing turpentine was mixed with straw for the purpose of being fired, no smell whatever of the turpentine would remain afterwards, if it was perfectly consumed—in order to test that, I made some experiments, and burnt some straw with turpentine, and some without—in this bottle I burnt some straw saturated with turpentine; there is no smell remaining.
Cross-examined. Q. If a thing is entirely burnt, nothing remains of it; is that what you say? A. It amounts to that, certainly—if you once set fire to straw soaked in turpentine there is not likely to be much left.
MR. SIMONS (re-examined.) Mr. Ingle, the prisoner's solicitor, saw this model after it was constructed—he saw this piece of flooring in which the holes are marked—(Upon the witness being asked whether he made any alteration in them at Mr. Ingle's request, MR. BARON MARTIN interposed; an admission by the prisoner's attorney could not be evidence affecting his client; it was very different from the position of an attorney in a civil case—MR. SERJEANT PARRY did not put it as an admission, but intended simply to show that the model was not completed without notice given to the oilier side—MR. BARON MARTIN considered that it must amount to an admission, if it amounted to anything at all; it would certainly be a bad precedent to admit such evidence, and he believed the question had been already decided in a case before LORD ABINGER.)
CHARLES JOSEPH CARTTAR . I am coroner for the county of Kent. On 13th September, I commenced an inquest on this fire, and the cause of death of the children—the prisoner was examined before me on that day—he was sworn—I took down his evidence—on 21st September, he was recalled and examined at the request of his solicitor—I have the statement that he then made.
Cross-examined. Q. Is it condensed, or is it question and answer? A. It is not question and answer; it is not condensed; it is the usual mode in which a deposition is taken; for instance the first question put was, "How long have you lived at Greenwich?" and I have put down, "I have lived for upwards of the last twelve months at Royal Hill, Greenwich"—it was taken down in that style, in the first person—his wife was examined afterwards on 1st October.
The examination of the prisoner was here read as follows: "RICHARD ROPER sworn, says, I have lived for upwards of the last twelve months at No. 8, Royal Hill, Greenwich, and carried on the business of a corn, flour, hay, and straw dealer—the deceased was my daughter
—her name was Isabella Caroline Roper, aged five years last birthday—she was burnt to death yesterday (the 12th September) at my house, No. 8, Royal Hill, Greenwich; my other daughter, who was also burnt to death at the same time, was named Eliza Jane Roper, aged one year last birthday—I saw them both alive on Saturday evening last between seven and eight o'clock—they were put to bed about that time, they slept in the attic on the second floor in the front of the house, in the same room with the servant girl—I went up to bed about twelve—I slept in the front sitting room on the one pair floor over the shop—my wife slept in the adjoining room at the back of the house—the nurse slept in the same room with my wife, and there were no other persons but these in the house (except the infant)—I burn gas in the shop, and in the back sitting-room on the shop floor—in the shop there are three burners, two in the window, and one over the counter in about the middle of the shop, and one gas burner only in the back sitting-room—I keep hay, straw, and clover in the shop—The lad left soon after eleven o'clock—my wife was confined on Thursday morning, and the infant was with her—since my wife's confinement I have not put the gas out in the back sitting-room, and at the counter, for the convenience of the nurse, in the event of her wanting to warm anything during the night for my wife—the burners are fishtail burners—there was a bell glass over the burner at the shop counter, but not one over the burner in the sitting-room—I turned off the gas at the main three parts down, leaving but a small light at the two burners—the cock near the burner was full on at each burner—that is the safe and proper way of regulating the gas—when I left the shop there was no fire there, or any smell of fire—I went in to see my wife for a short time before I went to bed—the servant-girl went up to bed before me—I was the last in the shop—I sat up about twenty minutes entering up my day's accounts in my books, and I then went to bed—I was awoke by an oppressive heat in the room—I jumped out of bed and looked at the time-piece which was on the table, but I did not see the time; I had no light in my room—I found something wrong by the heat of the floor when I put my feet to it—there was no smell of fire or smoke in the room—I put on my drawers—I opened the door to go down stairs, and the flames met me—I ran through the flame and opened my wife's door, and alarmed her—I assisted my wife, and got her out of the back window on to the roof of the back sitting-room; the nurse also went out that way—I tried to get back to the staircase, but could not—I called to Elizabeth—I got out of the window to my wife—I found the nurse had not got the baby—I then went back and rescued the baby—I removed my wife and the nurse and baby afterwards with safety from the roof into the back yard—I came through the next house to the front into the street—very soon afterwards the policeman came up—I knew Mr. Morley at the corner of Royal Circus-street kept, ladders—I took the policeman with me to his fence, and asked, and wanted him to allow me to get over for a ladder; I begged and prayed him to allow me to do so—I could have done so; the policeman would not allow it—I returned to the house with the policeman; other police arrived—they burst the shop front open, and the flames ascended at once—the police are to blame for it all—the shop front ought not to have been broken open; I knew the effect of such a course—it was destruction to my poor children—the shop front was broken open ten minutes before the fire-escape arrived—it was twenty minutes to half an hour before the fire-escape came—the policemen did nothing but stand at the door—I have lost everything I possessed—nothing was saved—the shop was pretty full of hay and straw—there is a
cellar under the shop which will hold about four loads; it was about half full—my wife was taken to Mr. Baldy's, and still remains there—she is very ill, quite unfit to be examined—the girl Elizabeth was taken off the roof of the house by the fire-escape—I thought she had saved one or both of the children until she came down the escape—I have no knowledge of the origin of the fire—I have no idea how, where, or when it commenced—I cannot account for it at all—I saved nothing from the fire—I lost all the goods and furniture I possess, and all the clothes of myself and family—I am insured in the Kent Fire Office for £300. Taken, &c. 13th Sept. 1858.
RICHARD ROPER re-called by Mr. Ingle, solicitor, and examined, says:—I took the business in May, 1857—I did not insure until Christmas last, then in the Kent Fire Office for 300l.—the furniture about six years old—it cost me about 450l.—I advertised business for sale early in the summer, through Mr. Sainsbury, of Blackfriars-road—I had no answers—I also referred to Mr. Seaward, of Greenwich; also to Mr. Denham and Mr. House—I had several applications afterwards—I wanted 200l.—I had an offer of 150l. which I refused—Mr. Sayers, of Greenwich, offered me 20l. that I refused; on Tuesday before the fire (the 7th Sept.) some person called and offered me 130l.—I agreed to take it, and asked for a deposit—he said he had not come prepared to pay a deposit, but, to show his good faith, he would pay 2l. and come on the following Tuesday and settle—he paid me the 2l.—I don't know his name, he did not give it, I did not ask for it—I gave him no receipt for the 2l.—he did not ask for one—he went over the house—Mrs. Roper saw him—he remained altogether about ten minutes—I told him what business I was doing—he did not ask to look at, or inspect, the books—he agreed at once, and paid down the 2l.—it was on Tuesday,—I am certain I afterwards told Seaward and all my friends and the doctor that the shop was let, I also told the boy (Morris) and the girl (Elizabeth)—I went to Deptford, to Cowell's—I asked Mrs. Cowell to take in the breakables, she consented—I sent many things by the lad and also by the girl, such as the dinner, tea, and dessert services—Abbott has taken things also, trifles, China tea-trays, and several things—I received a letter from Allwright on Sunday morning; Allwright came on Monday morning—I told him I did not want my claim made out, I was in such trouble; I felt I could not touch the money when my children were burnt—Allwright asked me several questions—I told him I had made out a list at the time I insured ready for the surveyor when he came—Allwright made no reply—I am sure he made no observation—I gave him a detailed account of the things I had when I insured, to the best of my recollection—I did not intend it to be a list of the things burnt—Abbott reminded me of some of the things; also Miss Cowell—I had a pretty average stock—I signed the paper Allwright produced the next day—I did not read it—I knew that it was the claim which was going into the office—I turned the leaves over, but did not take much notice—Abbott removed some China ornaments—I gave a great many of the things to the boy and the girl to take away—the boy was told by me what he was taking away—the girl knew what she was taking away—the party who took my shop said he came through (I think) Ilford—I should know him again if I saw him—I have not seen or heard from him since—he looked like a farm bailiff, a middle aged man—older than myself, not so tall, no beard, but little whiskers—wore a dark coat rather speckled; a hat—I don't remember what sort of waistcoat—he seemed to understand the business—I sent no message to the boy on Sunday by Abbott—I did not tell the girl to go with Abbott to find the boy—I never
sent any message—I sent the writing-desk by the girl to Cowell's—I never told the girl not to tell the boy what she was removing—I told Allwright where the dinner-service was bought, and what it cost me; it cost me £10—I told him the price of many other things—the whole of the inventory sent in had reference to the old inventory, and what I possessed at Christmas last, stock and all—before I came to Greenwich I lived at Plaistow, in Essex, for three years—I never had a fire before—I never was insured before; that is, I don't know how to make out a claim—the person who bought the shop promised to come to settle on the following Monday or Tuesday—he was to give £130 for it, exclusive of stock—I never expected to receive payment from the Fire office for the things which had been removed—the man looked like a farm bailiff—I judged so from his way and manner of handling the corn and articles—he appeared to understand the business. Taken, &c. 21st Sept. 1858.
The prisoner received an excellent character.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. SERJEANT PARRY offered no evidence.
NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Recorder.
JOHN COOTS . I am an engineer on board the Blenheim. On the night of 16th December, I was near the Victory public-house, Greenwich—I had drank too much—in consequence of something said to me, I felt for my watch, and it was gone—the prisoner was not present, but she had been in the same room with me, and had left about ten minutes before—this is my watch and chain (produced) and this knife was in my pocket—I missed it at the same time.
Prisoner. We had been drinking together all day—you gave it to me to pledge, and told me to get 1l. on it. Witness. I knew enough of what I was about to say that I certainly did not—when I went into the house, you and two women were in the road, and asked me if I would give you anything to drink, and I gave you a quart or two of ale.
STEPHEN BRAMWELL (Policeman, R 211). I was called into the Victoria public-house, at half-past 12 o'clock, and received information—the prisoner came back to the house, while I was speaking to the prosecutor, and I asked her if she had got the man's watch—she said "No," and that she had not seen it—I took her to the station, and she said that she had left it at a house in East-street—I took her there, and she asked a female for what she had left there, who brought her a watch, which I took to the prosecutor—he said, "There is a gold chain, also"—I asked the prisoner what she had done with the chain; she said that she had not seen it—she was searched by the female searcher, who brought the chain into the office, in the prisoner's presence, laid it on the table, and said that she had found it concealed in the prisoner's clothes—this knife was also found on her by the female searcher.
Prisoner. I said to you, "I have not got it with me; I have been and
washed myself, and left it on the table. Witness. You made use of no such words.
Prisoner's Defence. The man gave me the watch, and told me to pledge it—I was with him all day, drinking—a friend of mine said, "Do not pledge it, because, when he gets sober, he will want it—as for the chain, I had forgotten where I put it—he lent me the knife to cut an apple with.
NOT GUILTY .
PLEADED GUILTY , and received a good character.— Confined Twelve Months.
(See the case of Thomson and Neale, Vol. 48, p 444.)
JAMES HINDS . I am in the Royal Artillery stationed at Woolwich—the prisoner was a recruit—he occupied the same room as myself in Woolwich barracks—on the morning of the 21st September, I received a letter at the barracks which was read aloud to me by my serjeant—the prisoner was present at the time—the letter contained an order for ten shillings on the post-office at Woolwich, the serjeant also read that to me in the prisoner's presence—I put the letter and the order in my bed while I went to drill about 12 o'clock—I returned in about half an hour or an hour, and found the order was gone—I told the serjeant and he took me to the post-office to stop it—as we went to the post-office, we met the prisoner—I cannot read, this (produced) resembles the order.
Prisoner. He stated in the depositions that he returned at half-past 12, and I can safely say that he never came back till after 2. Witness. I cannot be sure about the time I came back—I gave the letter and order to two men in the room, the sergeant was present at the time—I had it back from them, and put it under my bed before I went to drill.
AUGUSTUS CHARLES WOODLEY . I am clerk to the Woolwich post-office, On the 21st December, a person came to me with this order—I believe the prisoner to be the man—I have no doubt by his general appearance of his being the person—it had the signature of John Hinds to it at the time—I believe I asked him who it was from, as is general in the office, and then I paid him the ten shillings—the last witness came to the office about fifteen minutes after I had paid it—I saw the prisoner again about an hour afterwards, when the sergeant brought him down with the last witness, and I identified him as the person—I was asked if he was the person, I did not pick him out from others.
Prisoner. Q. Did you not tell the policeman, and also the commanding officer, that you could not swear to the person? A. I said I believed you were the man, and I say so now; there was nothing particular to attract my attention at the time, except the smock frock and the hat.
THOMAS TAYLOR . I am a sergeant in the Horse Artillery—the prisoner and the prosecutor were in the same mess—on the morning of the 21st December, I received a letter for the prosecutor—I gave it to him, and subsequently read it to him in the prisoner's presence, as well as this order which was contained in it—I gave back the letter and order to the prosecutor—after he came back from drill, in consequence of what he told
me, I sent him to the post-office to try and stop the order—after I came back I spoke to the prisoner, and told him that the prosecutor had made a communication to me and I should bring him in front of the officer—he declared that he was innocent—I took him before the adjutant, and afterwards to the post-office—I found on him five shillings.
JURY. Q. When you read the order to the prisoner was any other person within hearing? A. No one except the prisoner that I remember.
JURY to JAMES HINDS. Q. Who was present when you placed the order in your bed? A. No one but the prisoner—no one but the prisoner could know that I had put it there.
Prisoner. I have nothing to say.
GUILTY , Confined Fifteen Months.
The serjeant stated that the prisoner had formerly been a recruit in the regiment, and had deserted.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MESSRS. SLEIGH and LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.
JOSEPH STANTON . I am a boot and shoe maker, of 88, Lower Marsh, Lambeth—the prisoner is a greengrocer, living in the New Cut In September last I deposited some boots and shoes with him, to the amount of about 200l.—they were in seven hampers, marked—I agreed to pay him half-a-crown a week—in about three weeks, I made application for their return, and the prisoner told me he had let the upper part of his house to his cabman, and he had removed the boots for safety to his wife's sister's, at Hoxton, and he would give them back to-morrow—when I called two days afterwards, he told me he was unable to get them, as Mr. Scott, his brother-in-law, did not know they were deposited there, and he had to give a few days' notice before he could get them—I sent my wife to him, and I saw him again about two days before he left the New Cut, about 8th November—I understood that he had let his business for 50l., and the first deposit had been paid—I was uneasy about my goods, and I went and demanded them—when I went to the shop, his wife said he was not in—I waited in the shop—I would not leave until I saw him—he came down stairs, and said, "As soon as I have settled with these gentlemen for the first deposit for my business, I will come down and see you about those goods"—I waited an hour, or an hour and a half, and he came down and took me out of the shop, and said, "It is no use disguising the matter; I have made away with a hamper of your goods, and with this deposit I have received to-day I will redeem them, and return the whole to-morrow morning, at 9 o'clock"—the goods were not returned the next day, and I saw him again on the Monday following, I believe about 8th November—I said, "Mr. Bell, I want my goods"—he said, "I have disposed of them, and I cannot get them back, unless you give me 50l.—I said I could not—he then said, "You must give me 40l."—I said, "The last 20l. deposit you received, you must put towards it, and I will try to get another 20l.—he said, "I cannot do so; the lowest I can possibly say is 30l."—I said, "I cannot raise 30l.
I will come to your house to-morrow morning"—I could not raise the 30l. the following morning—he came to me the same evening, and said, "What is the reason you have not called on me"—I said that I could not raise the money—I said, "I will get it against to-morrow morning, by 11 o'clock"—I went to him on the following morning, at 11 o'clock, at his dwelling at Hoxton, and gave him the 30l. in presence of my wife and John Wilkins—I offered it to him in the front room—he said, "Come with me into the next room"—I went in the next room, and counted him out the 30l.—two 5l. notes, 18l. 10s. in gold, and 30s. in silver—he said, "Now, come with me; you shall have the goods"—I went to his stable with him, and he put the horse in the cart, and drove me to Wandsworth, where I imagined the goods were—we went to a house in Wandsworth—I there got three small hampers and an egg-chest—the hampers were not mine—there was about 34l. worth of goods—they were not the goods which were in the hampers before—he said I should have the other four hampers on my way back—I did not get them on my way back—he took me back to my own residence in the Lower Marsh—I did not get my four hampers—he said it was too late to get them that night—he would get them to-morrow morning—I said I thought I should not be able to come myself; if I sent my wife, it would be just the same—he said it did not matter; whoever I sent should have them—I sent the next morning—I did not get them—the value of the four hampers was about 25l. each—the hampers I got were worth about 80l. when they left me—they were worth about 34l. when they came back—I sent my wife the next morning, and she returned with five pawnbroker's duplicates—I have since seen the property represented by those duplicates—it is here—it is mine—the difference between what I have got, and what I delivered to him, I should say, is about 150l.—when the prisoner was taken, Coppin, the officer, said to him, "What have you done with the 30l."—he said, "I have spent it"—I was present when his lodging was searched—six pairs of boots were found—they were part of my property.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. What is your name? A. Joseph Stanton—I have given that name, and answered to the name that was called—I was examined in the name of Stanton—I took that name because four years ago I was insolvent, and I went by the name of Stanton instead of Staddon—my debts were about 300l.—I have been in business since—I have not paid a-farthing of those debts—I never went by any other name; never by the name of Smith—I know Mr. Roberts, a boot and shoe manufacturer, of Prior-place and Essex-street, Strand—I don't know that he has absconded—I was foreman to that Mr. Roberts when in Essex-street and Prior-place—he was in Prior-place first; I was foreman to him there about six months—that is about fourteen months ago—he lived six months in Prior-place—he got boots and shoes from Northampton, and paid for them all—he left because the place was not large enough for him, and he came to Essex-street—I was foreman to him the whole time he was there, about six months—I don't know that he absconded from Essex-street: he left—he did not leave without telling anyone where he was gone—I don't know where he is now—I can't tell how much he left in debt—his stock was sold in the regular way of business—he did not leave any stock behind him; I swear that—he did not, during the time he was in Prior-place and Essex-street, refer to me in the name of Smith—he did not refer to me at all; I swear that—while I was in his employ, acting as foreman, he did not refer to me as regards his solvency—he never referred to me at all—I can hardly tell what I have been charged with—the Magistrate
would not have anything to do with it—I have been charged with conspiracy with Roberts—while I was in his employ, a man came to sell lasting side-springs; he received an order, and part of that order he fulfilled, not the whole—that tradesman delivered goods to the amount of 12l. 8s. 6d.—they were delivered; they were not paid for—they were only part of the contract—that debt was contracted in Prior-place—upon my oath I was not referred to as regards Mr. Roberts' solvency—nobody came to me to my knowledge—I will swear on my oath that I did not answer the reference, and tell them he was perfectly solvent—I went to the man; he sent for me—he was anxious to get an order from my employer, and said he would make me a handsome present for it—he said he should like me to see his factory—I went and saw it—I did not tell him that Mr. Roberts was perfectly solvent—he did not know me by the name of Smith; he knew me by the name of Stanton—I do not know that he knew that I had been insolvent—I was charged, and I believe I was bound over to appear here for trial—a charge was trumped up against me—I cannot say how often this matter was inquired into—I appeared twice—I appeared once to answer the charge against myself; that was last Tuesday—I had Mr. Sleigh to defend me—the depositions were taken down—since then Mr. Fernando sent for me, and he said, if he withdrew would I prosecute—I said that was another consideration, and in consequence of that he pressed the charge—I have not, in the last few days, asked the prosecutor to settle it, decidedly not: he threw himself in my way two or three times that I should settle it with him—I knew he was in the police—I have known him about four years—I have been drinking with him since last Sessions—he threw himself in my way—I was in the boot and shoe manufacturing business in Hampton-street, Walworth, when I was receiving these things—I had been there about twelve months—I bought these boots and shoes—I got the money by my own industry.
Q. You were insolvent four years ago, and you say you lost £135 worth of goods, where did you get the money to get this stock? A. I can prove that I have been getting eight guineas a week for the last eighteen months—I manufactured part of these goods on my own premises—I have had about 300l. worth of goods from Northampton—a part of these were those that came from Northampton, from Hallam's, about 130l. worth—some of these boots have Hallam's mark on them, and some my own mark, made by myself and men—the boots were not sent to me by Hallam, they were brought—I was removing—I advanced a little money on a beer-shop which I was about to take—I was about to remove my stock—I sent seven hampers to the prisoner, one of them had the name of "Payne and Clark, Cannon-street," on it—I believe Payne and Clark were indebted to Roberts—I do not know that they were creditors of Roberts to a large amount—I did not buy boots and shoes from Payne and Clark; but they sending goods to Mr. Roberts, I took the goods home, and supplied his customers—I took a hamper from Roberts to Three Colt-street—it was full of goods when I took it; I might say to the amount of 14l. or 16l.—that might be a month or two months before Mr. Roberts ran away—I took it away full of goods—I took the goods there, and received the money, and brought the hamper back to my place—I did not return it because it was after business hours—I was carrying on business at that time—I did not tell this man that I did not like the hamper with the name of Payne and Clark on it to be seen, and desire him to remove the goods—they were removed from that hamper—the name was written with large letters on that hamper—it is in Court—it was given up, and the goods were removed out of it—I will swear I did not
tell him to remove the goods out of that hamper; was it likely I should tell him to do so—Mr. Hallam is now insolvent—I was not a fraction indebted to him—I was not indebted to the prisoner—he is indebted to me now—I did not know he had removed to Hoxton—I put a watch on the premises, that was how I knew he was gone—he did not say to me when I first asked him about these goods, "You can have them when you pay what you are indebted to me"—decidedly not—there was a charge for his having the goods—I cannot say how long they were with him—from the time I placed them in his possession till I received a portion of them back was about two months—he did not tell me before he went to Wandsworth that he had removed the goods there—I did not know where I was going—he said "I have let the upper part of my house to my cabman, and removed the goods to my wife's sister's in Hoxton—I received at Wandsworth three hampers and an egg chest—the day after I received them I dined at his house—it was on the 11th of Nov.—I paid the 30l. the day I went to Wandsworth—I dined with him that day—I did not borrow 3l. of him; none whatever—I had not been told before that a part of the goods had been pawned—he told me on the day he received the last deposit that they were made away with—he did not tell me that a part of them had been pawned—he said after the pawn tickets were produced that he had nothing to do with it, his wife pawned them, and he did not know it—he told me as soon as he had received the deposit that my goods should be returned—there is a deficiency of about 150l.—I believe my solicitor has got the invoices—I swear I had invoices—the goods which have been returned to me were produced before the Magistrate—Serjeant Copping applied to have the boots which I brought back from Wandsworth given up to me, and they are in custody of the police—the Magistrate did refuse their being returned, but Serjeant Copping applied for them, and they were kept—the Magistrate said they should be kept till the real owner was found, but I defy any one to prove that they are any one's but mine—I did not go with the goods to his house—Charles Robinson took them, a man who fives next door to me—he is here—my wife is here—I did not tell her to ask the prisoner to take the goods in for me, as I were afraid the officers were after them; decidedly not—my wife did not accompany Robinson with the goods—I swear that.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. You have been asked about your being insolvent? A. Yes, I was about three or four years ago—my real name is Staddon, and I varied it to Stanton after passing the Insolvent Court—I have carried on business ever since under the name of Stanton—I have not merely been foreman to Mr. Roberts, but I have carried on business to a considerable extent myself—that was the only time I was in trouble after being in business twenty years—these boots and shoes were all bought by me in a legitimate way of business, and paid for by me—these are the invoices of those goods—I was charged with a conspiracy with Roberts, and bound in no bail but my own—I appeared on two or three different occasions, when the inquiry was not gone into on account of the absence of the prosecutor, Fernando—on the night before this charge was heard against me at Worship-street, Fernando came to me and made a request—(I did not see the prisoner at the same time)—he said if I would not go on with the prosecution of this prisoner, he would not prosecute—I did go on, and the matter was inquired into, and I was bound over in my own recognizance—I saw the prisoner and Fernando together—they came into the police court—I did not make an overture to the prisoner to settle this matter—between the time I was charged with this complicity with Roberts I have not made any communication
to the prisoner—I am not indebted to Hallam one single sixpence—I paid him all—the goods were taken to the police court—I sent them by my man—I was merely asked for samples, and I thought I would take the whole lot—an attempt was made to damage my character—I had no notion that any of the property was pawned till the prisoner told me so himself—Mr. Roberts is not to he found—I believe his creditors are keeping hint out of the way—whatever he may have done wrong, I have not been engaged with him in any other respects than as his foreman—if he has defrauded anybody I have not been a party to it—there is not a word of truth in my being in conspiracy with Roberts.
ELIZABETH STANTON . I am the wife of the last witness—on Tuesday morning, 2d November, I called on the prisoner, and asked him for my husband's property—he told me I should have them the next morning; that would be Wednesday—I went to him the next day; I saw him—I did not get the goods—he said he and his wife were going then for them, and he told me to come back at 5 in the evening—I went, and they said he was not at home; I should have them the next morning—I went on 9th November and saw him—I and my husband stopped and dined there—the prisoner said he could not give up the goods without I gave him 30l.—I said it was not in my power to do it—on the following Thursday I went to the prisoner's house with my husband—I took him 30l. myself, in a light canvas bag—I gave it to my husband on the prisoner's table, and my husband and the prisoner went into the next room—on the following day, the Friday, the prisoner's wife, Mrs. Dell, gave me these duplicates, (produced)—that was the day after they went to Wandsworth; it was while the prisoner was absent—the prisoner came in about half-past 3 o'clock—his wife told him that she had given me the duplicates—I then said to him, "I wonder you served me so, for I have a young family"—he said, "You may think yourself b—y well lucky that you have got them"—and he said, "Give them back to me"—I said, "I will not"—I have got my tickets; but I have not got my property—I took the duplicates to my husband.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you recollect when the goods were sent to Mr. Dell? A. Yes—I don't know whether it was three or four days before quarter-day—I did not go with them—certainly not—I have not seen my husband since he was examined—not to have any communication with him—I did not go with the goods to the prisoner—two men, named Fergus and Robinson, took seven hampers on a barrow; four at one time, and three at another—the prisoner said he would make warehouse room for the hampers; he knew that I was looking out for a place to place my goods, as I had not room there—he knew it, for he was always at our place pretty well; he could not be without knowing it—I asked him if he could let me ware-house room; not above two or three days before the goods were sent to him—I saw him at my place at the Crystal Palace—my husband was present—I paid him for them before I sent the hamper—I lent him 7l., and I—I lent him the 7l. about two months before—the 7l. was to go for warehouse room—when I came to the Crystal Palace he knew that I wanted to remove them—he had the 4l. at the same time the hampers went—it was in my shop at the Crystal Palace that I first asked him to give me warehouse room for these goods—I can't tell who was present—that was the same day the goods were sent—that was the first time I had ever asked him to give me warehouse room—the goods were then at the beer-shop; in a concertroom—they might have been there two or three days—I can hardly tell you whether my husband was present—he did not ask me what I wanted
to send them to the prisoner for—I did not say anything to the prisoner about Mr. Roberts—I did not say anything about the officers being after them—I did not say that I wanted him to keep the goods for me, for I was afraid the officers were after them—I did not hear the prisoner say that my husband was indebted to him about 30l.—I don't owe him anything for greengrocery—I paid him just as the goods went there—I did not hear him say that there was an amount of 16l. for horse hire and damage, and 12l. for removing and taking charge of the goods; never in my life.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. You owe Dell nothing, but he owes you money now? A. Yes.
CHARLES JOSEPH WILLIAM ROBINSON . I live in the Lower-marsh, Lambeth—I removed some goods from the Crystal-palace beer-house to the prisoner's house, in seven hampers, they were filled—I did not see them before they were filled—there were six of these sort of hampers, and a biggish hamper.
COURT. Q. Did Fergus go with you? A. No, not to my knowledge.
SAMUEL COPPING (Police-sergeant, P 15). I took the prisoner into custody on 30th November—I told him it was for stealing boots and shoes from Mr. Stanton who was present—I told him I should go to his house; he said that he would not go—I insisted on his going, and I said I would get whatever force was necessary to compel him—I did go to his house and searched the premises—I found three pairs of shoes, and three pairs of boots—I produce the duplicates which I received from Mr. Stanton—on the way to the station some conversation took place about the boots and shoes—he said that was all right—I said there was not much doubt a quantity of them had been pawned—he said yes, his wife pawned them, and he should make a purse by it—I said he had obtained 30l., he said, it was all right—I said, "What have you done with the 30l."—He said, "I have spent it."
The prisoner received an excellent character.
GUILTY.—Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury. Confined Six Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Four Months.
MESSRS CLERK and POLAND conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN MACFARLINE GRANT BOAG . I keep the Crown public-house, in the New Cut, Lambeth. On Saturday, 4th December, I saw the prisoner in my house after 6 o'clock in the evening—I had a servant named Mary Quin, she has now left me—while the prisoner was there Quin gave me a base half-crown, and she said this person had asked her for half-a-sovereign for silver and in the silver one half-crown was a bad one, and she passed it into my hand—I said to the prisoner, "Where have you got this from?" holding it in my hand—he said "From a public-house"—I said, "It is very curious you
should come to another public-house, and ask for a half-sovereign, why did not you ask for it there"—he went to the door, and said, "I will call my mate"—I looked out at another door, and saw him running down the turning as fast as he could—I put the half-crown in a piece of paper, and locked it in my desk till a policeman took the prisoner a week afterward—I marked it and gave it to the officer—I am positive the prisoner is the man.
Cross-examined by MR. HORRY. Q. Did You keep the half-crown till the Saturday? A. Yes; when the policeman called and told me to go to the Station to identify the person I had the bad half-crown from—I had told about the bad half-crown before the Saturday—I went to the station, and the prisoner was then at the bar in the station—I said he was the man—I saw him alone by himself—we were not busy at the particular time he came on that Saturday night—I think he was the only one who was on that side of the bar—I had more than ten or a dozen customers between 4 and 7 o'clock that night.
MR. CLERK Q. Was it on the, 11th that you went to the station? A. Yes; it was late on the Saturday night—the prisoner stood by himself; opposite where the inspector took the charge—I was asked whether he was the person that had tendered a bad half-crown to my barmaid, and I said he was—I had not the slightest doubt that he was the person—I had the half-crown in my hand three or four minutes; and, finding I was going to take the case up, he started off—I was in conversation with him three or four minutes—I am certain he is the man—there were a couple of burners over him—I can't tell whether he had a cap or a hat—I had not seen him before to my knowledge—I did not see him again till the 11th, when I saw him opposite the inspector at the station.
MARY QUIN . I was barmaid at the Crown Tavern. On Saturday evening, 4th December, the prisoner came in—I am certain he is the person—he asked for two pennyworth of rum, and paid me two penny pieces—after that he asked me if I would oblige him with half-a-sovereign for ten shillingsworth of silver—amongst the silver I found a bad half-crown; I gave it to my master—I was present when the prisoner had some conversation with Mr. Boag—he remained two or three minutes—he then went out at the door—I was present on the 15th, when the prisoner had his examination in a private office—I noticed on 4th December that he appeared as if he had just left work—his hands were very dirty—I did not notice his dress—I speak to Sum by his features—I am certain he is the man.
Cross-examined. Q. You never saw him before? A. No—it was between 6 and 7 o'clock I believe—I believe I served three or four persons between 6 and 7 o'clock—I can't say how many I served, between five and seven—I can't recollect any particular person that I served between 6 and 7 besides the prisoner—I was taken to the police-court about the man that passed the bad half-crown, and I knew I should see that person.
HENRY JOHN CLIFFORD . I keep the King John's Head public-house. On the evening of 11th December the prisoner came to my house between 7 and 8 o'clock—he asked for three halfpennyworth of ram and spruce, because he had the cold shivers, and had had them all day—I served him, and he gave me in payment a counterfeit shilling, which he took out of his purse—I saw it in his purse before he gave it me, and noticed that it was counterfeit—when he gave it me I took it up, looked at it carefully, and said, "This is a bad shilling"—he said, "I don't think they would have given it me where I got it if they had known it; I got it from the Hercules in change for a sovereign"—I said, "You had better take it back to the
Hercules, and tell them so"—I handed it to him, and he placed it in his purse as it was before, and gave me a good shilling—I gave him in change a sixpence and fourpence-halfpenny in coppers—he went out of my house at one door, and I went out at the other—he went about four doors down to Mrs. Bellenie's, a little general shop—he looked in at the window first, and then went in; I looked through the window, and saw her serve him with some tobacco—I saw him take his purse out of his pocket, and take the same shilling out of it, and put it down on the counter—I saw Mrs. Bellenie take it up and put it in the trier—I then went into the shop, and said to the prisoner, "I shall give you in charge; you have just tendered this shilling to me, and I told you it was bad"—I took the shilling up off the counter—I do not recollect that the prisoner said anything—a constable was sent for, and he was given in custody—I gave the constable the shilling I took off the counter.
Cross-examined. Q. When you told him it was bad, did he not say he thought it was a good one? A. No; he said, "I don't think they would have given it me where I got it; I took it at the Hercules"—I did not go to the Hercules—I believe the policeman made inquiry—I do not know that there is any one here from the Hercules.
SARAH BELLENIE . I keep a tobacco-shop, at 34, Holland-street, Christ Church. On 11th December the prisoner came to buy tobacco at my shop—he asked for half an ounce—the price was 1 1/2 d.—he offered in payment 1s—I tried it and found it was bad—I gave it him back and told him I would not bend it as he might know where he took it—Mr. Clifford came in and took it up, and the prisoner was given in custody—I was alone in my shop when the prisoner came in.
HENRY CHARLES EDWARDS (Policeman, L 198). I was at the police-station on 11th December when the prisoner was brought in—I searched him and found a purse, 19s. 6d. in silver, and 9d. in copper—there were 6 half-crowns, 1 shilling, and 7 sixpences—Mr. Clifford gave me this counterfeit shilling—Mr. Boag came to the station, and put this half-crown into the Inspector's hand and he gave it to me—Mr. Boag marked it.
WILLIAM MCCLEWN . I am a smith, and live at 3, Joiner street, Westminster-road—I have known the prisoner near upon three years—he has been regularly employed at Maudsley and Sons—he lives in the same house with me. On Saturday, 4th December, we left off work at 4 o'clock—he left off work—he did not go home with us—I went home about 5 o'clock—he had not come home—I did not see him at all at home on the 4th December—he has always borne the character of a hard-working, honest man.
Cross-examined by POLAND Q. Do you know him intimately? A. Yes; I see him and work with him daily—he was working there the whole of October—he was in custody at Greenwich for uttering counterfeit coin—I do not know it—I know no more than his mistress told me—I dont know what month he was at Greenwich—it might be four or five months ago—I only know by what I heard told, that he was charged with uttering coin and was discharged—I live at 3, Joiner-street, Westminster-road.
CATHERINE BROWN . I am the wife of John Brown—I live at 3, Joiner-street—I have known the prisoner about eighteen months—he has borne the best of characters—I have always seen him in at proper hours—he is, an honest industrious man as far as I know. On Saturday, 4th December I
remember he came home between 4 and 5 o'clock—he was at home the rest of the evening till between 8 and 9 o'clock—I can declare that, and he told his wife he was going to a meeting—I saw him again that evening—I think about 11 o'clock—I never left his place—I was working for his wife—I was in the same room with him all the time.
Cross-examined. Q. What room does he occupy? A. The back and front parlour—they are both on one floor—I lodge in the back-room second-floor—I remember McClewn coming in rather late that evening—I should think between 10 and 11 o'clock—I never mind what time the lodgers come in—I don't know whether he had been in previously—I saw the prisoner come in between 4 and 5 o'clock—he had his tea, and I had my tea—I was in the same room ironing—his wife was there, and I, and his children, and himself, in the same parlour which he keeps—a person came in concerning a dress that his wife was making—I was there from 9 o'clock in the morning till after 11 o'clock at night—I did not leave the room unless to go in the yard for water—the prisoner went out between 8 and 9 o'clock as near as I can recollect—a number of other persons live in that house—the prisoner keeps the two parlours without going upstairs—I never heard anything of this till I heard the prisoner was apprehended—I heard the charge against him, and that called Saturday, 4th December to my recollection—I never heard of the prisoner being in custody at Greenwich—I never heard of his being absent from home in October—I had a situation in Chester-place, Kennington—it might be while I was away—I was nursing a lady—that was in April—I don't think I was in Joiner-street in October—I know nothing of that affair at Greenwich.
The prisoner received a good character.
GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his character. Confined Six Months.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. SLEIGH offered no evidence.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.
GEORGE FREDERICK BEST (Police-serjeant, R 21). On 28th November I was on duty, and, from information, I proceeded to the Harrow public-house—I there found a young man, whom I have since learned to be Donald McDonald—he was in bed, and was bleeding from the mouth—I called in a surgeon; and, on his advice I had him removed to Guy's Hospital—I afterwards attended an inquest, on his body—I have no doubt it was the body of the man I had seen at the public-house—I afterwards apprehended Asquith. (See page 248.)
ROBERT MILES . I live in Grange-road, Bermondsey, and am a tanner—on 28th November I left London, with a great number of other persons, to see a fight with Asquith and McDonald at Abbey Wood—the prisoners went there with me—I saw the fight—the prisoners' were McDonald's seconds—I saw the last round of the fight—I saw Asquith dose on McDonald—they both closed, and Asquith fell on McDonald—when McDonald fell, I heard him use the expression, "I am done; save my life."
—the two prisoners, his seconds, interfered—they threw some clothes around him—one took him in his arms, and dressed him—he was not able to walk; he was carried away.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLPS Q. How long did this fight last? A. About thirty-five minutes—when the deceased fell, the prisoners wrapped him up carefully, and carried him away.
JOHN BUTER . I reside in Spa-road, Bermondsey, and am a tanner—I was present at the fight—I saw the two prisoners there—when the deceased fell they picked him up, and wiped his face—they acted as seconds—I saw the last round in which McDonald fell—I saw him lying on the ground, and afterwards raised up by the two prisoners—I heard Harrington ask the deceased several times to leave off fighting, and he said he would not—they were fighting about fifteen minutes after that—Harrington was attending on the deceased, after he had made that request which had been refused.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you hear the other prisoner say he wished the deceased to give in? A. No; but I heard Harrington say so several times.
JOHN MCDONALD . I live at Bermondsey. On 28th November I was called to the Harrow public-house—I saw my son in bed—I had him conveyed to Guy's Hospital—I was there when he died—he was seventeen years old.
CHARLES LEWENDON (Policeman, M 228). In consequence of information received, I went to a house on 26th December—I saw the two prisoners there—I said I apprehended them for attending a fight at Abbey Wood, where by a man lost his life, and they must go to the station—they said, "Very well, they would go"—Harrington said they were present at the fight, but they did not go down with the intention of being his seconds, but he was called on to do so—George said he did second him.
JOHN RAND . I am house-surgeon at Guy's Hospital—McDonald was brought there on 28th November—I examined him—he died the following morning—the cause of his death was an injury to the lower part of the neck; crushing the spinal marrow—he was in that condition when he was brought in—he had other slight contusions.
HARRINGTON— GUILTY .— Confined One Month.
GEORGE— GUILTY .— Confined Three Months.
ANN EDWARDS . I lodge in the same house as the prisoner, in Earl-street, Southwark—he had threatened on the Monday that he would do for me, because I stood between him and his wife when she cried "Murder!" and last Wednesday morning, between 9 and 10 o'clock, I was cutting a bundle of wood which was on the table, and he said, "You weak thing; I have you alone, and I will do for you"—he wrenched the knife from my hand, and made a cut at me—I tried to get it from him, and he chopped my finger with it—the first cut was accidental, in his taking the knife out of my hand; but the second was not—they are two very deep wounds—this (produced) is the knife I had.
Prisoner. I never went into your room. Witness. You did.
THOMAS EVANS . I am a surgeon—the last witness was brought to me on 29th December, with two wounds on the fore finger of the right hand, one slight, on the inside, and the other severe, on the back of the finger—this
knife is blunt; it would require some force to do this—it most have been done with a chop, not a stab.
Prisoner's Defence. Just before 8 o'clock in the morning, I had occasion to go out—and this party and another were upstairs in the back-room—my little girl has not been examined yet; I wish her to be called, she was examined before the Magistrate—I called her out of bed to light the fire, when I went down, as her mother was not at home—she began to light the fire, and lay the breakfast things—the parlour door was left open all night, and I merely looked in to see what was o'clock; and during the time I was telling her to get the breakfast ready, a pint of gin, and some rum was sent out for—I went to fetch my wife home to breakfast at ten minutes past 9, looked at the clock again, and the prosecutrix came down with a knife in her hand and said, "You ought to have a taste of this"—I said, "For what?—I give you verbal notice to leave"—she made a blow at me with the knife—I put up my hands to save myself and got cut with the knife—I tried to get it from her, and here are the marks on my hands; though they are not so deep as her's—she cut herself, in trying to get it—the policeman told her to get some sticking plaister, but she went to the doctor's—neither her fellow lodger nor she, had been sober since Christmas-day—a gentleman was up the whole night with them drinking rum and gin.
COURT to ARTHUR GRIFFIN. Q. Had the prosecutrix been drinking? A. Yes, and the prisoner as well.
The Prisoner called
ALICE FLYNN . On this morning, I was is the passage by the bed-room—my father was coming down stairs, and Annie came out of her room with a knife, and a bundle of wood, and said, "If you do not mind I will give you a little bit of this"—my father struggled to try to get it from her, they both struggled together, and I cannot tell which had the blow or the cut on their fingers—I afterwards saw that my father's hand was cut, and the prosecutrix's too, but I did not see how either of them were cut—the prosecutrix went out at the street door, and a policeman came to my father in about a quarter of an hour.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. ROBINSON conducted the Prosecution.
LEONARD RAYNER . I am the master of St. Olave's Union—the prisoner has been an inmate there since 1849, in consequence of some defect in his eyes—on Wednesday I was going up stairs to inspect the sick ward, and the prisoner was walking backwards and forwards on the landing—he struck me a violent blow on the ear, which turned me back, and he instantly drew this table knife, belonging to the Union, and made several stabs at me—I parried the blows off, and fell on the landing—I regained my standing, and was going down stairs when he made a desperate plunge at my throat, which I parried with my left hand—he said, "You b—r, I will murder you"—I was cut on the thumb—I was above him, and he had power over me—he followed me a yard and a half or two yards—I slipped through the doctor's door, and was in in an instant—he went into the yard after somebody who
he thought was me—he had come in the morning and asked me for a suit of clothes to go out, and I told him he must make his application to the Board of Guardians—I said, "You had better go to your ward, you are not a fit object to leave the house, as you cannot get your own living"—that was all that had passed between us from the 24th to the 29th.
JAMES INNIS MACKINTOSH . I am medical officer to St. Olave's Union—on the 29th Mr. Rayner came into my room bleeding very much from his throat—it was a deep wound, extending nearly to the bone—it was likely to be done with such an instrument as this knife—I also found a wound on his arm, and another on his leg, which had been done immediately before—there is nothing the matter with the prisoner's intellect, only with his eyes and his constitution—he is suffering from scrofula.
JOSEPH BELLEFORD (Policeman, M 224) I took the prisoner in the workhouse yard between 11 and 12 o'clock, and told him he was charged with stabbing the master—he said that he meant it—I asked him what he had done with the knife—he said that he had made away with it, and I could go and find it if I liked—I found it cast over into another yard; there were marks of blood on it.
GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
MR. O'CONNELL conducted the Prosecution.
GEORGE PRITCHETT (Policeman, P 237) On Sunday morning, 19th December, about a quarter-past 1 o'clock, I was in Arthur-street, Walworth, and saw the prisoners turn out of the Walworth-road into Arthur-street—Brown asked me the way to Hill-street—I said, "Straight on," and followed them up Arthur-street, William-street, and Hill-street—I lost sight of them at the corner of Hill-street half a minute, and they went to the Hop Pole beer-shop, Mr. Williams's—I stayed fifteen or twenty yards off, and saw them at the cellar-flap; Brown let the flap down, and one of them disappeared—Brown turned round against the fence of the adjoining house as though he was making water—I took him by the collar, and said, "What is your game here?"—the cellar-flap was two or three yards open—I held him by the collar, stood on the cellar-flap, and made an alarm by knocking at the shutters—the landlord looked out at a window, and I told him to come down, as there was a thief in his house, and I had got the other there—two persons came to my assistance; we pulled up the flap, and saw Stone underneath—we dragged him up into the foot-path, and he said, "What do you want with me?"—he was very violent—half-a-dozen persons came up, and one said, "He has dropped a chisel"—I said, "Will you pick it up?"—he did so; at the station, he gave it to me—he is not here—this is it (produced)—I returned and saw that they had used some instrument which had been pushed down the framework to push the bolts back on one side—they had shoved off a piece of wood with the chisel—I found a small knife on Stone.
Cross-examined by MR. LILLEY. Q. From where Brown spoke to you, how far is it to the Hop Pole? A. I could walk it fast in three minutes—from that time till Brown was in custody might be ten minutes; it was more than five—I lost sight of them for about half a minute—they might have been drinking, but there was nothing the matter with them—the frame-work
of the flap was rather old, and it might be rather rotten—it appeared decayed where they shoved off this piece of wood.
MR. O'CONNELL. Q. Whatever time you lost night of them, are you sure they are the same persons you had seen previously? A. Yes—I knew Stone well—I compared this chisel with the marks in the flap, and they were just this size.
SAMEUL WHITE (Policeman, P 177). On Sunday morning, 19th December, about half-past one, I was near Hill-street, Walworth—in consequence of hearing something I went to the Hop-pole public-house, and saw Prickett there with the two prisoners in custody—I took Brown to the station—I found on him a quantity of lucifer matches, and a small key—he appeared to be the worse for liquor, but I believe him to have been quite sober.
Cross-examined. Q. How many persons assisted in taking him to the station? A. Three, I believe, besides the two constables—I had hold of him by the neck tie, I did not hear him complain of the manner in which he was held—he was able to speak—he did not say if I would leave go he would go quietly—he tried to get away from my custody—at the time I heard the alarm I was in Montpelier-lane, which leads into Hill-street, about one hundred yards from the Hop Pole.
HENRY PRESCOTT . I am a carver and gilder, and live at 49, Hill-street, Walworth—on Sunday morning, 19th December, I was going home with my landlord, Mr. Cobb, and saw the prisoner Brown tustling with the policeman 237; the policeman called for assistance, and said, "My rattle is broke"—I helped the policeman to hold him as straight as I could—he said, "Hold him tight, for God's sake, for I have got another one in the cellar"—we got Brown off the cellar flap, and the policeman lifted up the flap, and I immediately took hold of Stone at the back of the collar—he was in the cellar, standing up close—I and the policeman together pulled him out—the prisoners both resisted very much indeed, in fact I hardly know how we got them to the station, but we got other assistance and did go.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you lay hold of Brown by the collar? A. No, I held him by the neck tie, and one of his cuffs—I did not hear him complain that I hurt him with my thumb; it was not so tight as to choke him—he did not say, "If you won't use me so roughly I will go quietly"—Stone was in the cellar—the flap lets down—they both appeared to be quite sober—there was in appearance of drink about them, either real or pretended, their reeling was in trying to get away—I was quite sober—I had been to my trade society; we don't do everything there dry, but you are not obliged to get in liquor.
THOMAS COBB . I live at 49, Hill-street—I was coming home with Prescott on this night—I assisted in taking Brown, and went with them to the station—on the way I saw Brown drop a chisel from under his coat—a girl picked it up, and gave it to a man named Morris—he came with the mob to the station, and gave it to the policeman.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you see that done? A. Yes; I had hold of Brown as we were going to the station by the collar, and the left arm—a number of persons were following, a dozen or so—I have never been in any trouble, nor even before a Magistrate—I swear that—I live in the neighbourhood—Hill-street is not very brightly lighted.
MR. O'CONNELL. Q. Is it bright enough to see a man in a cellar? A. Yes, if you look after him.
On Saturday, 18th December, I shut up my house about 12 o'clock—I went to bed about half-past—I fastened up—I had bolted the cellar flap all right and safe the last time I had beer in—that was in the course of that week—I cannot say on what day—I went outside on Saturday night, and tried the flap, as I generally do, and found it all fast—there is a trap-door leading from the cellar into the shop; there is no bolt to that—it is easily lifted up—after I had been in bed some time, I was awoke by a knocking at the door or window-shutter—I went to look out of window, and saw the policeman scuffling with a man on the cellar flap—he said, "There is a thief in your house"—I struck a light and came down—I lifted up the inner cellar flap, and looked, and saw one of the prisoners standing in the corner ready to come out—I then went back to dress myself—I afterwards went into the cellar with the policeman—we examined the cellar flap, and on one side, where the bolt goes in, the wood was newly broken away, and some broken pieces were lying in the cellar—something had been used to force the bolt back—the wood was rather decayed—the shop was part of the dwelling-house.
Cross-examined. Q. Are you sure you tried the cellar flap that night? A. Yes—I am satisfied I did—I have a positive recollection of it.
The prisoners' statements before the Magistrate were read as follows: "Stone says, all that I have got to say is, the flap was open. Brown says, I say the same; the flap was open."
The prisoners were further charged with having been before convicted.
ROBERT WENIIAM (Policeman, N 256). I produce a certificate—(Read: "Central Criminal Court; January, 1857. Robert Jackson, convicted of Burglary, Confined One Year") Brown is the person who was then convicted—I had him in custody.
SAMUEL COPPIN (Police-serjeant, P 15). I produce a certificate—(Read; "Surrey Sessions, 3d September, 1855. Matthew Cavanagh, convicted of larceny; Confined Six Months.") Brown is the person who was then convicted by that name.
WILLIAM COOMBES . I live at 4, New-street, near the Victoria Theatre—I produce a certificate—(Read: "Central Criminal Court, August, 1852. John Williams, convicted of larceny from the person; Transported for Seven Years.") Stone is the person referred to.
GUILTY.— Six Years each in Penal Servitude.
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
GEORGE HOBBS . I am a clerk to Mr. John Wilson, of Great Suffolk-street, Southwark. On Friday, 17th December, the prisoner came to my office—I never remember having seen him before—he produced this paper (Read: "December 16, 1858—Mr. Wilson—Sir; Please pay bearer, Welsh, labourer, 3 days, 7 1/2 hours, at 3s. 4d.—I. Hobbs,"—I told the prisoner to call again in half an hour—in the mean time I made a communication to Mr. T. Hobbs, who is the foreman at the Adelphi—the prisoner came again in about half, or three-quarters of an hour—I told him I had not change, and told him to call again in a quarter of an hour—he did so, and I then gave him into custody—I asked him whether the figures 7 1/2 meant hours, and he said, "Yes."
Cross-examined by MR. PHILIPPS. Q. Are you quite sure that the prisoner had never been employed in any way by Mr. Wilson? A. I think not—I never remember having seen him in his employment—sometimes we have 200 or 300 men at work at a time—I pay at home, and another clerk pays out—I should not have seen him if he had been at work out.
THOMAS HOBBS . I am foreman to Mr. Wilson, of Great Suffolk-street, builder—I never recollect seeing the prisoner—he has never been employed by me, or to my knowledge—this order is not my writing, nor did I authorize any one to write it.
Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you employ a great number of men. A. A great many—we employ men for eight, six, or ten hours at a time, just as we want them—I never gave any one authority to sign orders for wages—my brother, Benjamin Hobbs, is in the same employ—he is a carpenter—he does not employ any men under him—he works with me—he is not here.
COURT. Q. Do you keep the account of the time of all the men under you at the Adelphi? A. Yes; I send the orders to the cashier to pay—no person but myself is authorized to give orders—no person named Walsh is working under me at the Adelphi.
ALFRED PERCIVAL (Policeman, M 100). I took the prisoner into custody—Mr. Hobbs stated in his presence, "This man has come into my office and brought this, and presented it to me with the intention of receiving the money"—he made no reply.
GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, JANUARY 31ST, 1859.