CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
SECOND SESSION, HELD DECEMBER 14, 1835.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
Taken in Short-hand,
BY HENRY BUCKLER.
GEORGE HEBERT, CHEAPSIDE.
W. TYLER, PRINTER, BOLT COURT, FLEET STREET.
On the King's commission of the Peace,
OYER AND TERMINER, AND GOAL DELIVERY,
The City of London,
AND GAOL DELIVERY FOR THE
COUNTY OF MIDDLESSEX, AND THE PARTS OF THE COUNTIES OF ESSEX, KENT, AND SURREY, WITHIN THE JURISDICTION
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
Before the Right Honourable WILLIAM TAYLOR COPELAND , LORD MAYOR of the City of London; Sir Joseph Littledale, Kat., one of the Justices of His Majesty's Court of King's Bench; Sir Stephen Gaselee, Knt., one of the Justices of His Majesty's Court of Common Pleas; Sir James Parker, Knt., one of the Barons of His Majesty's court of Exchequer; Sir Stephen Claudius Hunter, Bart,; William, Venables, Esq,; and Sir John Key, Bart; Aldermen of the said City of London; the Honourable Charles Ewan Law, Recorder of the said City; Kelly, Esq.; John Cowan, Esq.; Samuel Wilson, Esq.; James Harmer, Esq.; and Thomas Johnson, Esq.; Aldermen of the said City of London; John Mire house, Esq., Common Sergeant of the said City; and William St. Julien Arabian, Sergeant at Law; His Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminar, and Gool Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.
LIST OF JURORS.
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
COPELAND, MAYOR, SECOND SESSION.
A star (*) denotes that the prisoner has been previously in custody—An obelisk (†), that the prisoner is known to be the associate of bad characters.
First Jury, before Mr. Justice Littledale.
185. JOHN THOMPSON was indicted for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of John Owen, about the hour of six in the night of the 3rd of December, at Allhallows, on London-wall, with intent to steal.
MARY OWEN . I am the wife of John Owen, and live in Wormwood-street, London-wall, in the parish, of All hallows; we keep the Ship public-house. On Thursday, the 3rd of December, I was sitting with my husband in the bar, at tea, and heard a noise over my head—It was a little after six o'clock in the evening—It was dark—I could not see a person's countenance in the open air, without some light—I heard the noise a second time; I took a candle, and went up stairs; and was astonished at finding my bed-room door unlocked—I had left it locked—I cannot say exactly the time, but I think it was about an hour before—I went up, in about two minutes after I heard the first noise—I opened the door, and saw the prisoner standing by the side of my bed, with a light proceeding just by the side of the bed, where he was—I did not know him before—I am sure he is the person—he rushed towards me—I took him by the collar, and held him; and screamed, till the people in the tap-room heard my screams, and came to my assistance—I never lost sight of him till I and said, "That is the thief; hold him safe," and he was secured by the men in the tap-room, and a officer sent for immediately—I found the lock of one of the drawers forced open, which contained property; but I lost nothing—I always kept that drawer locked, because I keep property in it—there was a mark on the wood-work of the drawer, something like a
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Is your husband here? A. No; his name is John—my servant is not here—I have two, one female and one male—my female servant had not access to my bed-room—I let no one go into it but my husband and myself; except I went with them—I always made the bed myself—she never went into the room for the purpose
of removing the linen—I did every thing myself, excepting scouring the room, and then I always stood in the room, while the servant was there—It was not my custom to leave the key in the door—I have done so in the morning part of the day, but it was always locked after twelve o'clock—the key was in the bar—the female servant came into the before, fetch things that were wanted—I had been in the room about an hour before, or not so much—I took the key with me up stairs to unlock the door and when I came to the door, I found it was unlocked—I always locked the door, and brought the key down again—I placed it on the mantel-piece in the bar, where I always keep it—It was about five o'clock when I went up—I cannot speak exactly to the time—I am certain it was not more than-an hour before the alarm—I might be up at four o'clock, and five o'clock too—I know I was up there between five o'clock and six o'clock, because I fetched some dishes and plates about five o'clock, for a dinner we had for some gentlemen—It was rather a supper than a dinner—It was to be ready at half-past eight—I did not go up for them before five o'clock—I was up stairs about an hour before this occurrence took place—we had no more business than common that day—we have a pretty good business in the middle of the day, between twelve o'clock and two o'clock—the female servant was engaged getting the supper that day, but at this immediate time, she was up stairs dressing herself—she had assisted me in bringing down the plates—she did not receive the key from me—I am positive I never entrusted her with it—she went out of the room immediately before me—she went down—she might have heard me lock the door—she was at the Mansion House, but was told she need not appear here—I am certain I did not leave the key in the door—my husband had no partner—he occupies the whole of the house—from year to year—I do not know who the landlord is, but he pays the rent to Mr. Culvert, the brewer.
DANIEL PAMPLETT . I am a patrol of Bishopsgate-street. I went to Mrs. Owen's between five and six o'clock—a person of the name of Lewin came to the Watch-house, and I went there, and found the prisoner in the tap-room—It was dark—I could not see a person's countenance in the open air without the addition of some light—I searched him and found on him eleven skeleton-keys, two picklocks, one chisel, one jemmy, or crow-bar, and a lucifer-box with matches—I found in his pocket 1s. 2d., and a pair of shoes—he had a pair of pumps on his feet—he asked me to let him exchange the pump he had on his feet for the shoes he had in his pocket, and I allowed him—this lantern was brought to me at the station-house by Lewin, quite warm.
JOHN LEWIN . I was in Mr. Owen's bar, with Mr. Owen, on the evening of the 3rd of December. I heard a noise up stairs, and heard Mrs. Owen call "Thief, thief; Mr. Owen, here is a thief'—I went out of the bar, and saw the prisoner at the bottom of the stairs, and Mrs. Owen holding him, and calling out—It was nearly six o'clock—It might want ten minutes, or a quarter to six—when I came out of the bar the people surrounded him, and a person cried out, "He has dropped something," and I picked up this lantern—It is a dark lantern—It was quite warm—I immediately sent for a constable—the lad could not find one, and I want to the station-house, and gave the lantern to the last witness,
GUILTY— DEATH . Aged 26.
Before Mr. Baron Parke.
186. JOSIAH ALLEN was indicted for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of John Dodd, about the hour of four in the night of the 30th of November, at St. Marylebone, with intent to steal, and stealing therein 1 bag, value 4d.; 1 cruet-stand, value 12l.8 cruets, value 20s.; and 3 cruet-tops, value 12s.; the goods of the said John Dodd.
WILLIAM PHILLPS . I am servant to Mr. John Dodd, who lives in the parish of St. Marylebone—he is the housekeeper. On the 30th of November I went to bed about eleven o'clock—I sleep in the lower part of the house—I saw the window were shut before I went to bed—the outer window was shut down, but bot fastened—there are shutters inside the window but they were not quite closed—I left them a little open to admit light in the morning—that window communicate with the area—I was awoke about four o'clock in the morning by a noise at the window—I got up, and found the window drawn down, and the shutters pushed right open—soon after I saw Compton, the policeman, who showed me a bag, which belongs to my master—It was on the cute-stand the night before when I went to bed, in the cupboard, in the pantry—the cruet-stand remained in the cup board, then, but it was drawn out about a foot from where it was the night before—I am sure it had been removed that distance from where it stood the night before, and the bag, which was the covering of it, taken off—a person could reach with a stick from the window to the place where the cruet-stand was—I saw the policeman in the area where the bag was—he had another policeman standing at the top of the area gate—the prisoner was in the policeman's custody in the area—I knew him before—he had been in Mr. Dodd's service, and I succeeded him—I asked what he had been about—he said he had not been about any thing—the policeman showed me the green baize bag, and asked if I knew it—I said, "Yes, it is the covering of the cruet-stand, and he must have been in the pantry"—he said he had not—I called my master, and we found inside the pantry two sticks tied together—he could reach with that from the window to the cruet-stand.
RICHARD COMPTON . I am a policeman, On the morning of the 1st of December I was passing Mr. Dodd's house, and heard a noise of footsteps in the area—I stood some time, and heard footsteps again—It was about four or a quarter past four o'clock—I tried the area gate, and it was fast—I got over the railing, went down the area, and on the steps of the area I found this green baize bag—I looked into the privy, and there found the pri soner—he had his coat, waistcoat, and hat off, and put by the side of him—his small clothes were not down—I said, "Are not you the servant who used to live here?"—he said, "No, never; I came a long way out of the country"—I took him into custody, and asked how he came there—he said he got over to ease himself—I said it was a pretty place to come to ease himself—I rang the bell, and the servant came to the door, and called his master; and going through the house the servant gave me these two sticks—I did not see the state of the window as I took the prisoner away—this is the same bag and sticks as I found.
GUILTY— DEATH . Aged 18.
LONDON AND MIDDLESEX LARCENIES, &c.
OLD COURT.—Monday, December 14th, 1835.
First Jury, before Mr. Sergeant Arabin.
NOT GUILTY .
JANE TOTEN . I am servant to Mr. James Linsey Barclay, who lives at No. 95, Farringdon-street. The Prisoner came there to ask for relief, on the 5th of December, about four o'clock in the evening, she asked me to go and ask relief for her—she had been before for the same purpose—I went up stairs, I was gone three minutes, and when I came down she was gone, and the door shut—I missed a cloak which had been hanging in the hall—I went after her, and took it from her five doors off—she said I gave it her—this is it.
The prisoner pleaded poverty.
GUILTY. Aged 57.—Recommended to mercy.— Confined Nine Months.
189. WILLIAM BROWN was indicted for stealing, on the 30th of November, 1 axe, value 3s.; and 1 plane, value 3s.; the goods of John Bryant; 1 axe, value 2s. 6d., the goods of Stephen pierce; and 1 jacket, value 3s.; and 1 rule 1s.; the goods of James Quick,
JAMES WEDDELL BRIDGE . About seven o'clock in the evening of the the of November, I was passing through Fenchurch-street, where I am inside with these tools under his arm—he was quite a stranger, and had no right there—I asked what business he had there—he said had come for William Jones' tools—I said I had no such person in my employ—he came out with the tools under his arm—I walked with him to Mr. Brown's the next house, and pushed him in three—these are the tools.
Prisoner. I was in distress, and the door was open.
GUILTY . Aged 45.— Transported for Seven Years,
VERE FANE . On Monday, last, I was going along Fleet-street, about the middle of the day—I suddenly felt my pocket lighter than usual, and found my handkerchief was gone—I turned round, and saw the prisoner two or three paces behind me, walking away—I followed, and collared him—the handkerchief dropped from his against his feet—I picked it up—he struggled, got from me, and across the street—some persons followed, and caught him on the opposite side—we conducted him a few paces towards Temple-bar, and delivered him to an officer—I had not lost sight of him—this is my handkerchief—It has my initials on it.
Prisoner. I hope you will have a little mercy on me this I will not do so again.
GUILTY .* Aged 19.— Transported for Seven Years.
RICHARD GEORGE STATHAM . I am an officer of Cordwainer' ward. On Monday last, about two o'clock in the morning, I received information that the prisoner had let two persons into his master's—I went to the shop. and heard the voices of three people talking, and sent for the foreman—he arrived about half-past four o'clock—he listened, and there we staid till half-past six o'clock—the door was then opened—I went in, and found the prisoner, a female, and a young man, about twenty years of age, who had opened the door—his name is Reuben Gilbert—the prisoner and the fe male were undressed—I allowed them to dress—I then searched the pri soner, and found three duplicates on him—one was for a pair of trowards, pledged for 3s., on the 22nd of October.
GUILTY . Aged 18.
RICHARD GEORGE STATHAM . On the morning in prosecutor's house, and waited till half-past six o'clock then Gilbert opened the door—I went in, and found the prisoner there, undressed, and a girl also—I desired them to dress themselves—I then searched the prisoner, and found three duplicates on him—one is for this coat, pledged for 1l., 5s., on the 30th of November, in the name of George Smith.
(Catherine Person and Jane Davis gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY . Aged 18.— Transported for Seven Years.
OLD COURT.—Tuesday, December 15, 1835.
Second Jury, before Mr. Recorder.
JOHN COOKSON KELLY . I am a printer, and live in Houndsditch. The prisoner was in my employ errand-boy for about three months, up to the time he was apprehended. On Tuesday, the 24th of November, I marked some silver, and left it in the till, which is secured by a patent lock—I locked it—on the following morning, about ten o'clock, I missed two shillings and some copper from it—the copper was not marked—I went for a constable—the prisoner was searched in my per seance, and one shilling of the marked money found on him; also some copper money, and a sixpence, not marked—I had not been to the till after lock. ing it—I kept the key in my browsers' pocket—I never marked any money before—the till had not been opened for business that morning.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Have you the key of the till with you? A. I have—the prisoner is about fourteen years old—I had ten persons in my service in all—I have a female servant—I charged her with being concerned with the boy—she has been in my service three months while the prisoner was with me—I have made in quiries, and am confident the prisoner has been the dupe of a person older than himself—I was desirous of using his as a witness against her.
WILLIAM THOMAS . I am a constable. On the 25th of November I searched the prisoner about half-past one o'clock in the day—I found on him a marked shilling—eight penny-pieces, eight halfpence, and a sixpence, not marked.
JOHN COOKSON KELLY re-examined. Here is a very small K over the head of the shilling—I made no threat or promise to the prisoner—he told me the girl had shown him the way to the till, by taking out a side drawer, and putting his arm round, he could get to a cavity of the till, and take the money without unlocking it.
Cross-examined. Q. Have you reason to know the prisoner used to be taken up into that girl's room? A. I know it from himself only—she is twenty-five or twenty-six years old—the prisoner did not sleep in my house—he used to come early in the morning, by her appointment, and then she made him go to bed to her—the prisoner acknowledged that he took the shilling out of the till.
Prisoner's Defence. A little while after I went there the girl pulled the drawer out by the side of the till, and told me to get the money out.
(Robert Herring, of Norwich, gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY.*Aged 14.—Recommended to mercy.— Confined Six Months.
JOHN COOKSON KELLY . The prisoner was in my service, and during that time we missed a great quantity of linen—I have seen the articles stated in the indictment, and they are my property—I lost them about two months ago—the prisoner was not in our service when I missed them.
Cross-examined by MR. JONES. Q. Are not these children's toy-plates? A. They may be—I cannot tell what they are called—I have used them myself for butter—this is one of my children's tea-cups.
SARAH GRANT . I had a child to nurse for the prisoner—the parish paid me 3s. 6d. a week for it, and at the end of the quarter the prisoner was to pay 1s. 6d., a week—the prisoner was twenty-four year's old when she was confined—she is now nearly twenty-six—I saw these gloves drop out of the prisoner's pocket when she came to my house on the Sunday before her mistress was confined—I took them up, and put them on the side-board—and when she came again I told her she had dropped her gloves, and she told me to keep them for the child—she came down to me the Sunday before her mistress was confined, and desired I would bring the baby to her once a week, that she might see it every Sunday—I agreed to do so, and sent my daughter with the child, and she brought back three plates and a cup—she left her place on the 21st of October, and on the Sunday week after she came home, Nichols, the last prisoner, came to see her, and then they bad the plate on the table, and I saw her take the handkerchief out of her box—she used it for three or four days—I washed it for her, and she asked me for it, and said she would not part with it for five shillings—I said it was up stairs, in an upper room—I would not give it up to her, she said she would not care. but it had a mark on it.
Cross-examined. Q. Did not she take her child away from you? A. No; she did not—she wished to have it herself—she wanted a washerwoman to have it who worked for Mr. Kelly—she did not wish it taken away from me—she came once when she was tipsy, and then she did, but it was only when she was tipsy—I did not tell bar she might take it away—I said I would give it up to the parish officers—I would not let her take it—I did not say I would do her all the hurt I could, if she took the child away—I sent my daughter with the child to see the prisoner at Mr. Kelly's on Sun day evening—my daughter brought home two plates and a cup when she returned—that was the second Sunday she went—she never brought me any dripping—the plates were as they are now—I never washed them.
SARAH GRANT, JUN . I am the daughter of the last witness—the prisoner gave these plates to me at Mr. Kelly's house, in the kitchen, and told me there was one for my sister, and tow for her own child, and the cup was for the baby to drink out of—I have a little sister—the plate with the horses in it was for her.
Cross-examined. Q. Did not she tell you she had bought two of the plates in Whitechapel? A. No—my little sister is about four years old—these two small plates may he called children's plates—I believe I took coffee with the prisoner on the Sunday evening—there was some butter on the dresser—I did not see a handkerchief lying on the chair—she gave me no dripping that evening—my mother was not angry at the child's being taken away—all she said was, that she would not give it up to her—Mrs. Ryals lives next door to me—I never heard her talking about the child—I am not at home except on Sunday—the prisoner never gave me any dripping to
take home—I never asked her for any—all she gave me was a bit of bread and butter to bring home to the baby—that was wrapped in paper.
MR. KELLY re-examined. These plates were in my kitchen—I have used them there myself occasionally—I have missed more than these, and a great many other things—I know the cup, it was bought for the children—the plates were bought for ordinary use—I cannot tell what they cost—I suppose about a penny a piece—I did not miss them till after the prisoner left.
JURY. Q. What do you consider the handkerchief worth? A. Perhaps 6d.,—I had only one female servant at that time—I have two now—I cannot swear to the plates—there are, no doubt, a thousand of this sort.
Prisoner's Defence. I do not know any thing about the gloves—Grant came to tea with me, and put the handkerchief into her pocket by mistake—we afterwards quarrelled, because I wanted to take the baby away, as she did not keep it clean—she told me she would do me all the injury she could, and get me in prison—I bought the plates in Whitechapel, and I gave her the dripping because she said her mother wanted to make a gooseberrypie—I put it on the plate, and told her to bring it back.
MRS. GRANT. The prisoner never complained that I did not keep her child clean enough—she did not say that she should take it away because I did not keep it clean—the things were found at my house after her child had been removed.
NOT GUILTY .
HENRY KIMMANCE HEMSTED . I am shop man to Mr. John Brown, a lined-draper, in the Minories. On Saturday evening, the 5th of December—I was in the shop, about six o'clock—I saw the prisoner come in, and pull a shawl down, which hung up, and make off with it—I jumped over the counter, and called, "Halloo, you have stolen a shawl"—I got to the door nearly as soon as him, and the moment he got out he threw the shawl back again, part outside the door and part in—I caught hold of him a few yards, from the door—he turned round—I said, "You have stolen a shawl"—he said, "Do you mean to say I have stolen a shawl?"—I said, "Yes," and brought him into the shop, and called the young man up.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Was it taken outside the shop? A. Yes, it was outside the door.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
(Solomon Jacobs gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY . Aged 26.— Confined Six Months.
NEW COURT.—Tuesday, December 15, 1835.
Fifth Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
BENEDICTO ALBANO . I live in Piccadilly. On the 3rd of December, about twelve o'clock, I was in William-street, Black friars, and felt my pocket picked—I turned, and saw two men close by me—the prisoner was one—I caught hold of him, and the other ran away—I asked the prisoner to give me my handkerchief—he said be knew nothing about it—the witness came up, and gave it to me—I had not seen the prisoner speak to the other man.
Cross-examined. Q. Oh, you did not see my body take it? A. No—I called for somebody to stop the other.
JOHN FLETCHER SHARP . I was in William-street—my attention was called by the prosecutor calling "Stop thief"—when I got up, I found this handkerchief near to where the prosecutor and the prisoner stood—I had seen a man run away from there.
NOT GUILTY .
WILLIAM BROWN . I am porter to the prosecutor—he lived at No. 2, Watling-street. On Saturday last, I saw a person, who I believe was the prisoner, in our passage—he ran up the Old Change—I do not think he saw me—I followed him to Cheapside, and there lost him—I took him afterwards, and found this piece of drill under his arm.
Prisoner. Q. When you came to me in St. Martin's-le-Grand was I not walking? A. As soon as I saw you, I seized you—I took you back with the drill—you said at the warehouse that some person had given it to you.
Prisoner's Defence. A gentleman came to me at the corner of St. Paul's Church-yard, and asked me to take that as far as Jewin-street—I was to wait at the corner till he came, and he would give me one shilling—I told the porter so when he took me.
GUILTY . Aged 21.— Transported for Seven Years.
197. JOHN JEPSON was indicted for stealing, on the 20th of November, 8 beaver skins, value 10l., the goods of the Governor and Company of the Adventurers of England, his masters.—2nd COUNT. stating them to be the goods of John Henry pelly and others, his masters; and MARY ANN JEPSON was indicted for feloniously receiving the same well knowing them to have been stolen, against the Statute.—3rd COUNT, for receiving the said goods of a certain evil-disposed person.
MR. ADOLPHUS conducted the Prosecution.
EDWARD ROBERTS . I am accountant and book-keeper to the Hudson's Bay Company, and have been so about thirty years. I produce the char ter of the Company under the Great Seal—Mr. John Henry Pelly is one of the proprietors, and there are a great number of other—the warehouse is situated in the parish of St. Bennet, Gracedchurch-street—I have seen the male prisoner there once—there is no person named price in the Company pany's employ.
Company, and my father also, In the latter end of October last, a vessel, called the Prince Rupert, arrived with skins which belonged to the Company—the male prisoner has been occasionally employed by the Company since December last—h was employed from the 29th of October last till he was taken on the 23rd of November—various parcels of skins arrived by the Prince Rupert, amongst which were two parcels of beaver skins—I was present when they arrived, and I checked them as they were counted by the Custom House Officer—they are made up in bales from three to seven hundred in each—they are packed in large deer skins, and tied with slips of damp deer skins, which dry, shrink and cause the skins to be tied very tightly—It was impossible they could be opened on the voyage without its being seen—the number of beaver skins we received at that time were in one parcel 11, 637, and in the other 12, 566—they were deposited in the top floor of our warehouse—I remember Mr. Lee coming to our warehouse, but I did not see him—shortly before he came, I saw the make prisoner in the top floor of the warehouse at the time the men were gone to lunch—It was not the floor on which he was employed, and he had no business there—I did not say any thing to him—these skins were there at that time—I have counted them since, and nine are missing out of the parcel of 11, 637.
CHARLES DOEHNEL . I live at No. 11, St. George's Circus, near the Obelisk, and am a furrier. I purchased several beaver skins of the female prisoner at separate times—I saw no one with her—she said the skins had been brought over by a gentleman, and were his own property—I sent these skins to Mr. Lee's by Davey, my servant; and in consequence of what I heard I went to Mr. Lee on the 21st of November—In the evening of that day the female prisoner came to my shop again, and brought the last skin, which I bought of her—I told her the skins were suspected not to be got in an honest manner, and asked her her name—she said price, and that she lived at No. 7 prospect-place, Kennington-road,—I delivered the last skin to the officer—the other eight I had sent to Mr. Lee.
CHARLES DAVEY . I am a shopman to the last witness. On the 21st of November, in consequence of a massage from Mr. Lee, I directed my attention to the female prisoner—she came to my master's shop that evening—I could not hear the name she gave—I followed her, by my master's directions—when I got outside, I saw the male prisoner standing on the curb, close by the door—they went on, and met at the corner of the Borought-road—they again at No. 5, Amelia-place, Union-street—I took the officer there, and found that was their home—the female prisoner was not at home—the man was—Furley, the officer, called me up into the room, and the male prisoner put his coat on; I said he was the man—he was then taken to Union-hall, and the woman was taken afterwards—these are the eight skins I took from Mr. Doehnel to Mr. Lee for sale.
Mary Ann Jepson. The reason my husband was present was, I had to redeem a trifling article at a pawn-shop.
HENRY LEE . I am a skinner and furrier, and live in Maze-pond, in the Borough. On the 21st of November Davey brought me eight skins—looked at them, and was so satisfied that there was no beaver of that description brought to this country, but by the Hudson's Bay Company I detained the skins, and sent my brother to the Hudson's Bay Company—the skins were not out of my sight till me were at Union-hull—on my sending to the Hudson's Bay Company, Mr. Hagell came, and
claimed the skins immediately—they are new, and worth from 25s. to 30s. each.
Mary Ann Jepson. Mr. Lee said there were more skins of this sort in circulation, and he told the officer if he would give himself a little trouble he would find more about Witness. I have seen more skins in circulation which no doubt. were taken in the same way; but they were not this year's skins—It was in the February or March this year—I did not allude to this year's new skins, but last year's skins—I was asked if I had seen any before, and I said I had, but I did not allude to this year's skins.
WILLIAM HAGELL . I have been warehouse-keeper to the Hudson's Bay Company about thirty years. I know that two parcles of skins arrived for them, by the Prince Rupert, last October—they were in the warehouse—once of them had been taken Out, or sold, or disposed of by the Company in any way—I know of no person who imports these skins but the Hudson's Bay Company—these skins were not in a state fit for sale—they had to undergo a preparation, and every skin passes through my hands—I went to Mr. Lee's consequence of their calling at the Hudson's Bay House—Mr. Lee produced these eight skins to me—I have no doubt they are the property of the Hudson's Bay Company—they are part of the Prince Rupert.
GEORGE FURLONG . I am an officer. I went to No, 8, Amelia-place, on the 23rd of November—It is a good way from Kenning ton—I went up stairs, and inquired for a person named Price—no such person lived there—I desired to see the lodgers—I saw the male prisoner in the Back room up stairs—I called up Davey; and as soon as he saw him, he said he was the person who was with the woman who sold the skins—(I had asked the prisoner's landlord, and he said he lodged there)—he said I was quite welcome to search his place, and he lighted me—I waited about an hour, or an hour and a half, and the female prisoner came home—I asked her if her name was Price—she said, "No, Jepson;" but that she had lived with a man named Price—she said the skins were given her by a particular friend of her's named Price—I asked where he lived, and she could not give me the slightest information—I went to prospect-place, and to several other places, but could find no Price—these are the skins I received from Mr. Lee.
Mary Ann Jepson. I did not say I lived with Price; I said particular friend of mine, named Price.
WILLIAM HAGELL, JUN . I have brought one skin out of the pared of eleven thousand and odd—these appear to be the same—from my knowledge of the business, and the skins passing through my hands, I have no doubt that they are the same—there are nine missing, and nine found—there is a factory, called the York Factory, at Hudson's Bay—these skins came from there—It is their factory—they manufacture for none but the Hudson's Bay Company—the savages bring their skins there at different times, and they pick them and send them over.
John Jepson. I have no defence, nor have I been associated with the charge—I have been fifteen years in London, and never was accused of a dishonest action.
Mary Ann Jepson's Defence. They were never given to me by my husband.
JOHN JEPSON— GUILTY . Aged 36.— Transported for Seven Years.
MARY ANN JEPSON— GUILTY . Aged 28.— Judgment Respited.
Fourth Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
JOHN PROSSER . I was in the Strand about twelve o'clock on the 30th of November, and missed my handkerchief—I saw the prisoner and another boy walking just before me—I seized them both, and saw the prisoner putting my handkerchief in his bosom—I do not recollect whether I said any thing to them; but they both ran up Bedford-street—I pursued, crying, "Stop thief"—I saw the prisoner throw my handkerchief into the passage of a ham and beef shop—I stopped, and kept my eye on him till he was stopped and brought back—I said to him, "You rascal, pick up that handkerchief which you just threw down"—he took it up, and I gave him and the handkerchief to an officer—this is it.
GEORGE CHAPMAN . I am a policeman. I heard a cry of "Stop thief"—I stopped the prisoner, who was running, and took him back to the prosecutor—he said to him, "Now, you have thrown that handkerchief away, pick it up again"—the prisoner said he did not take it.
Prisoner's Defence. I met the young lad in going home—I was turning to look at a carriage—the threw the handkerchief in my face, and told me to mind it—he said he had picked it up—I got about twenty yards from the prosecutor, and he took hold of me—the other boy ran away, and I after him—as soon as the prosecutor cried "Stop thief," I stopped and walked.
(Mr. Walker, of Staple's Inn; Joseph Fox, a joiner; Elizabeth Thom; and Jonathan Ford, a bedstead-maker, gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY. Aged 19.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury and prosecutor. Confined Three Months.
SARAH SCOTT . I am a widow, and live at Islington, I lost several pieces of leaden pipe on the 1st of December—this is the pipe—It came from the butt—I saw the prisoner about ten or half-past ten o'clock, and missed the lead that morning.
JOHN LAWRENCE . I am in the employ of Mrs. Scott. On the 1st of December she sent me after the prisoner, and I took him with these things on his back, between ten and eleven o'clock—I have looked at the gig since, and the apron was gone from it,
Prisoner's Defence. I was in great distress,
GUILTY . Aged 30.— Confined Two Months.
200. JOSEPH FRANCIS ELIAS was indicted for stealing, on the 27th of November, 1 musical box, value 23s.; 39 silver buttons, value 1l. 3 silver pencil-street, value 6s.; 1 brooch, value 3s.; 1 hair-brush, value 2s.; 2 knives, value 10s.; and 3 forks, value 10s.; the goods of Charles Danieli.
has been occasionally out of place, and I have employed him, On the 27th of November, I went to Mr. Allen's No, 13, King-street, Soho—the prisoner was there, and they were buying three silver-handled forks, and two knives—these are them—they are mine, and this musical box is mine.
Prisoner. I took the box because the prosecutor had got 1l. of mine, and I could not get it of him.
GUILTY. Aged 25.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury.— Confined Two months.
Fifth Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
201. ELIZABETH ELSOME was indicted for stealing, on the 6th of December, 2 combs, value 9d.; 1 pair of gloves, value 1d.; 2 half-sovereigns; 9 half-crowns; 75 shillings; 16 sixpences; and 8 pence in copper; the goods and monies of Robert Parker, her master; to with she pleaded
(Mr. Stanley, a butcher, of Edmonton, engaged to employ her.)
GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy.— Confined Three Days.
202. LEWIS HORNIBLEW was indicted for stealing, on the 1st of December, 1 sheet, value 2s., 6d.; and 1 blanket, value 2s. 6d.; the goods of Robert East; and that she had been before convicted of felony.
ROBERT EAST . I live in Lower Edward-street, Battle-bridge, and am a carpenter, The prisoner and a woman came to lodge in my second floor, on the 25th of November—I examined the room before they took it—there was a sheet and blanket there for their use—on the 1st of December we missed them, and asked them about them—they told us they had made away with them—the woman said to the man, "What are we to do?"—he said, "Go, and get fresh lodgings"—they went away—we never saw any more of them, but found the duplicates in the room the next day.
Prisoner. She does not know what was in the room. Witness. I had seen them all in the room, safe.
(The prisoner put in a written defence, pleading poverty.)
GUILTY . Aged 20.— Transported for Seven Years.
203. ROBERT HORN was indicted for stealing, on the 26th of November, 2 sheets, value 4s., the goods of Charles Ratten; 1 watch, value 30s.; the goods of Eliza Hancock; and 1 pair of shoes, value 10s., the goods of William Standing.
CHARLES RATTEN . I keep the New Inn, at Stanwell. The prisoner came to sleep there on the 26th of November, and next morning I missed a sheet from the bed, and a watch also—this watch is my niece's Miss Hancock—this sheet is mine.
Prisoner. I had no money, and was in want.
GUILTY. Aged 16.—Recommended to mercy.— Confined Two Months.
204. THOMAS PAGE was indicted was for stealing, on the 28th of November 1 coat, value 2l.; 4 razors, value 9s.; 1 pair of scissors, value 2s.; 1 knife, value 1s.; 2 pair of stockings, value 2s.; and 1 apron, value 1s.; the goods of Charles Dalton.
JOHN OLIVER . I live in pump-court, whitrcross-alley, I was going home on the 28th of November, between half-past eleven and twelve o'clock at night and saw Charles Dalton drunk in the street—I saw the prisoner take the coat off his back—he went away with it—he first said he was a friend of his, and asked me and the other witness to move him—we took him to pump-court, and thought the prisoner was following us, but he went away.
CHARLES DACULTON . I am a hair-dresser, and live in Circus-street, Bryanstone-square, I met prisoner at half-past eight o'clock on Saturday evening—we drank at the Red Lion, and then removed to another public-house, and drank till eleven o'clock—I lost a cost off my back, also four razors, a knife, apron, two pair of stockings, and pair of scissors—I did not authorize any body to take it off—I was quite insensible.
Prisoner. I went to the Red Lion, with another young man—I went in by myself, as he was going further—I saw the prosecutor sitting there with two or three young men—I know nothing about the coat—I never saw it.
GUILTY .* Aged 22.— Transported for Seven Years.
205. THOMAS TURNER FOTHERGILL, WALTER WELLS, WILLIAM HORSEMAN , and GEORGE CUBITT were indicted for stealing, on the 13th of November, 1 till, 1s. 6d.; 1 half-crown; 3 shillings; 6 sixpence; 36 pence; and 72 half-pence; the goods and monies of Margaret Fryer.
MARGARET FRYER . I keep a grocer's shop in Queen-street, Lime house. On Monday evening, the 20th of November, I went out of my shop for about ten minutes—I put a sixpence, into the till, locked it up, and left the key in it—there shillings, six sixpences, thirty-six pence, and seventy-two half-pence in it, and when I came in again the till was gone—this is it.
SAMUEL PERKINS (police-constable K 117.) I received information, and went to the house of the prisoner Wells's father—I saw his father and mother—I asked for the boy—he was present—I asked his father to let him go with me about the till, that I had heard his boy had said he knew
who had stolen it—I asked the boy if he knew who it was—he said, he knew two of them by name—he took me to a place, and said the boys had thrown it over the wall there—I looked through the gate, and saw this till lying in a yard—I got over, and picked up the till with the key in it—I went after Fothergill—he was pointed out to me in the street—as soon as he saw me he began to cry—I charged him with it—he said somebody had drawn him into it—I went after Cubitt, but did not find him—my brother officer took the other two boys.
HENRY WATSON (police-constable N 84) I went to Wells—he said he had been led into it by some body, and described how it was done—I went after, Cubitt, and Horseman—I found on Cubitt two shillings, two sixpencer, and six half-pence, a knife, and purse—he stated that he knew nothing at all about it—I asked him where he got the money—he said he orked for it—I asked who he worked for—he made no answer—It was through the information of Wells that the other boys were taken.
THOMAS DALLY (police-serjeant K 23.) The prisoner were brought to the station-house—I said to Cubitt, in the presence of the other prisoners, "I understand you have the best part of this money"—he said he gave 7d., to Wells, 9d. to Horseman, and 10 1/2 d. to Tom Carroll, which is the name that Fothergill goes by, and kept 8s. himself.
Cubitt. Fothergill had a shilling.
Fothergill. I had only 10 1/2d., and you kept 9s. for yourself.
----HORSEMAN. I am mother of the prisoner, He has been a good boy till he got linked in with Cubitt.
----WELLS. I am mother to Wells. He bore a good charater till he got enlinked with these boys—he was out all the Monday—he came home with a few halfpence in his hand—we questioned him about it, and he said if I would not let his father beat him he would tell—he told all this, and we gave information.
----CARROLL. I am mother of Other. He has been a good boy till he got to Cubit.
CUBITT— GUILTY . Aged 13.— Transported for Seven Years
FOTHERGILL— GUILTY . Aged 12.— Confined three Months
WELLS— GUILTY . Aged 9.— Confined One Week, and Whipped.
HORSEMAN— GUILTY . Aged 12.— Confined Two Days.
JOHN WILLIAM PRATT . I am a pawnbroker, and live in High-street, shad well. On Monday morning, the 3th of November, the prisoner Mourner brought me this gold ring to pledge—I asked him who sent him—he said his mother—I retained the ring, and told him to fetch his mother,
HENRY WATSON (police-constable K 84.) I took Wells on another charge—he stated that another person stole the ring, and they went to pledge it in Whitechapel, and it was stopped, while the other person went to fetch his mother; and from that information I took Moroner to the pawnbroker,
who pointed him out as the boy that brought it—Wells said he was in his company, when the ring was stolen.
Moroner's Defence. Cubitt led me into it.
WELLS— NOT GUILTY .
MORONER— GUILTY .— Confined One Week, and Whipped.
THOMAS ELAM . I live in Marylebone-lane, and am rope-maker. I have known the prisoner some years, and have latterly employed him—on the 25th of November, I gave my daughter this money, tied in a handkerchief, to go to Kent-street, Borough, to fetch some goods.
MARY ANN ELAM . I am twelve years old—I know the nature of an oath—I received from my father a handkerchief, with two half-crowns, and eleven shillings, to go to Kent-street, in the Borough—I left home with the prisoner—as I was going along, he asked me a great many times to give him the money to carry—he pulled his coat-pocket out, and said there was no hole in it—I gave him the money, and went on to Kent-street—I asked him to give me the money—he said, "Wait a minutes, I am only going down this little court"—he went down, and I saw him no more, nor the money, or handkerchief.
GUILTY .*Aged 28.— Confined Six Months.
GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy.— Confined Three Months.
SOPHIA MASON . I am shop woman to Thomas Clark, a boot and shoemaker, of Oxford-street and Lamb's Conduit-street—the prisoner was the errand-boy, and to take home boots and shoes, and bring home the money—on the 1st of December, I gave him some parcels—one was to go to No. 129, Albany-street, with some shoes for Mr. Dumont, and he was to receive 3s. 6d.—It was his duty to have brought it back to me—h had another parcel to go to No. 11, Montague-place, Russell-square—he ought to have received 1s. 6d. for that, and brought it back.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Did you manage the business? A. I am shop-woman—I gave him these two parcels myself—they were directed—he never came back—I saw him again on Thursday night.
Cross-examined. Q. Are you that he is the person? A. Yes—I paid him 1s. and half a crown.
Prisoner's Defence. I was met by a man who took me into a public-house, and gave me some gin beer, and I was intoxicated—he took my boots and shoes off my back, and gave me 10s. for them—I was ashamed to go home.
(Jacob Hughes, a livey stable keeper, or So mer's's Town, gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY . Aged 14.— Confined Six Days.
THOMAS CHARLES BURT. I live in Mecklenburg-street. On Sunday, the 6th of December, I was in Fleet-street, going towards St. Dunstan's church, somebody gave me information—I felt my pocket, and missed my hand-kerchief, which was then produced to me—this is it.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Is there any mark on it? A. Yes, my name at full length.
CHARLES THORPE . I am a patrol. I observed the two prisoner following this gentleman up Fleet-street—I watched them. and observed Grenville take the handkerchief out of the gentleman's pocket, and walk back to the end of Shop-land, and give it into the hand of Hogan, who looked at it under a gas lamp—I crossed over, and Hogan, ran up shoe lane, down Harp-alley—I cried, "Stop thief," and he was stopped by Hodson, a policeman, who brought him to the watch-house, and took the handkerchief out of his left hand coat pocket.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. On which side of the way did this happen? A. On the same side as St. Dunstan's church—I was on the same side as Salisbury-court—It was a dull night—It was little foggy—there were about a dozen people on the same side of the way, going along—there were the two prisoners, and only one or two more persons near Mr. Burt, passing by—I sent my brother patrol to tell the gentleman—I was waitting for the gentleman to come back, so I did not take Greenville directly—I took him as soon as I could—It was not two minutes—I told my brother officer to take him, and I followed the other—Grenvile was taken first, up a door, very often—I am morning and evening patrol—I had seen them before, very often—I have been two years on that beat.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. How far were you from them? A. On a level with them—I followed them, from Mr. Waithman to Salisbury-court—I saw them touch the gentleman's pocket, as soon as they crossed the end of Shop-lane—my brother offcier was with me, but he is not here.
TIMOTHY FISHER HODSON . I am a police-constable. I heard a cry of "Stop thief," and saw Hogan running—I stopped him, and took him to the station-house—I found the handkerchief in his left-hand coat pocket.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. How long was it before you saw Grenville at the station-house? A. In about three minutes—It was rather foggy—I could see right across Farringdom-street, which is wider than Fleet-street.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Have you had that handkerchief ever since? A. Yes—It has been at Guidhall, sealed up.
Grenville's Defence. I was stopped by a lot of people at the bottom of Shoe-lane. I do not know this prisoner.
Hogan's Defence. I saw this handkerchief on the ground, and took it up. I was walking down the street, and the officer took me.
GRENILLE— GUILTY .† Aged 19.— Transported for Fourteen Years.
HOGAN— GUILTY . Aged 22.— Transported for Seven Years.
213. WILLIAM HENRY LAWRENCE was indicted for feloniously breaking an entering the shop of Ebenezer Howard, on the 2nd of December, and stealing 8 dead pheasants, value 24s.; and 18 dead grouse, value 1l. 16s.; his property,
EBENEZER HOWARD . I live in Lime-street, and have a shop in Leadenhall-market—I have a cellar under the shop, which joins to the Rose and Crown public house—there was a communication between my cellar and the public house, but it was parted off with boards, till a communication was made by some one—about the 1st of December I had twelve pheasants and eighteen grouse in my shop—I missed them on the morning of the 3rd of December—I afterwards saw the aperture which had been made in my cellar—no one could have got into my cellar without that aperture—It had been partitioned off with egg cases, and they had been brokes down—no one could have got this game otherwise than by that aperture.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS Q. Could is not have been taken out of the shop? A. Yes—the prisoner was never in my service—I could not identify the game.
JAMES TOZER . My brother-in-law, William Green Hascott, keeps the Rose and Crown—I know the prisoner as the servant of Mr. Brookes. On Wednesday night, the 2nd of December, he came to me, and asked for a key and candle, to go into his master's celler, to get a parcel out—I gave him a light and the key of Mr. Hascott's beer-cellar—he could get thought a trap-door from the beer-caller to his master's cellar—this was between ten and eleven o'clock—he returned in ten minutes, with a basket containing eighteen grouse and eight pheasants—he said, "Let them bide here in the coal-caller till morning"—I said, "There will be a piece of work about them"—he said, "No, there will not"—a bawker came to me the next morning with a basket, and told me to fetch up the things that had been left there the night before—I brought the parcel up to the hawker and he gave me 27s. in silver to give to Lawrence—I offered it to Lawerence—he told me to give him 13s. 6d., and keep 13s. myself—he said "Hold your tougue, I got the things from Mr. Howard's last night" I said, had I known that he had gone with the intention of getting the things from Mr. Howard's he should not have gone in; and he said he had not been tipsy at the time, it would not have happened—I took the 13s. 6d., and when Mr. Howard came to me, I told him about it.
Cross-examined. Q. You were in a little fright? A. Yes, I was I thought I had acted dishonestly—the hawker is not here—I do not know his name—I wait on hawkers in my master's kitchen—there is a bagatelles board there—I have played there—I have no wages, only two or three shillings, a week for pocket-money—the sober when he said he had been came to me—I did not tell him he was sober when he said he had been tipsy—I know Richard Lloyed by his working at Mr. Howard's—that was the first time I ever took 13s. for a dishonest action—I was very sorry for it—I did not tell Mr. Howard of this till I was charged with being a party to it myself, because I was frightened.
Lawrence told me when I met him—he said he understood Jem was taken (alluding to Tozwe). and he was about to disclose what he knew of the robbery; and he said, if he did, there were three or four in it—he said he would stop in Lime-street till I went to Mr. Brooke's shop; and I was to return and let him know things were going on—I went to the shop and told—Tozer had then been taken to the watch-house—I did not know much of Jem before that—he was no acquaintance of mine—I I had spoken to him—I have not made up this story—I was transported about six years ago; but I have subsequently been employed in the market—every one knew I had been transported; but I got off with being three years and two months in the Penitentiary.
Prisoner's Defence. I know nothing of the charge.
GEORGE BROOKE . I was told to apply to Tozer about this—Lawrence was a confidential person in my employ—In consequence of repeated robberies in my own shop, I went into my cellar, and found an aperture—I nailed, it up, and it was broken again.
NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT.—Wednesday, December 16th.
Third Jury, before Mr. Sergeant Arabin.
EDWIN HOYE . I am in the service of John Davies, a silk-mercer, in Dover-street, Peccadillo, in the Parish of St. George, Hanover-square; it is his dwelling-house, On the 8th of December, between four and five o'clock in the afternoon, I heard a noise in the parlour abjoining the ware house—the noise appeared to be in the warehouse—I immediately went there, and found the prisoner, who was a perfect stranger to us—he had a a roll of silk—I asked him what he was doing there—he said he wanted Captain Johnson—I said no such person lived there, and took him into custody—he threw the silk into the place he had taken it from—when I first saw him, he had it in his hand—I fetched a policeman, leaving the prisoner in the custody of a young man—the silk is worth 8l.
Prisoner. Q. Where was I standing at the time I had it in my hand? A. Close to where you had taken it from—you had it in your hand.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
Prisoner's Defence. It was not in my hand—he cane in, and said, "What do you want?"—I said, "Captain Johnson"—he said, "he don't here," and shut the door, and fetched a policeman—I went there, being out of employ for nine weeks—I met a gentleman I knew, who said Captain Johnson might take my son into his employ, and that he lived in Dover-street—I unfortunately went into this gentleman's house, and asked for the Captain—he said he should take me into custody for attempting to steal; and when the policeman came, he gave the silk out of the rack; the policeman said, "You had better charge him with stealing."
(William Parrot and William Stevens gave the prisoner a good character,)
GUILTY . Aged 30.— Transported for Life.
HENRY THOMPSON . I am foreman to Mr. Thomas Giselle and Mr. Peto, who are building in New Wellington-street, Strand, On the 28th of November, about two o'clock in the afternoon, I saw the building, and left all the property secure—I did not miss this property till I was sent for on Monday, and found it at Bow-street—the building was nearly finished—It was bolted and locked, and the windows shut down—the workmen were not in it—I think the person must have entered at the back.
RICHARD CASTLE . I am a policeman. On the 28th of November, at near ten o'clock at night, I was standing at the corner of New wellington-street, and saw Giles come out of the new building, with the riser on his head—I kept my eye on the door, and saw Williams come cut with the called a policeman to assist me, and took both into custody—they said a man gave it them to carry, and was going to give them two-pence, but they did not know where they were to carry it—went to the building, and there was no man there at all.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
Giles's Defence. A man came over to me and said, "Will you carry a bit of board for me? I will pay you for it when you take it without me"—I said I was willing to cam a few halfpence.
William's Defence. The man came over to the English Opera-house, and asked me to carry the board—he took me into the house, and told me he would follow me up the street.
WILLIAMS— GUILTY . Aged 16.
GILES— GUILTY . Aged 15.
Confined for Six Months.
Before Mr. Justice Littledale.
216. SUSANNAH BLAKE was indicted , for that, on the 26th of November, at St. Dunstan Stebon-health, alias Stepney, in and upon Mildred Scott, unlawfully, maliciously, and feloniously did make an assault, and did then and there unlawfully, maliciously, and feloniously cut and wound her, in and upon the mouth, the left side of the face, and the left hand, with intent, feloniously and wilfully, and of her malice aforethought, to kill and murder her.—2nd COUNT, stating her intent to be to main and disable her—3rd COUNT, stating her intent to be to do her some grievous bodily harm.
MILDRED SCOTT . I live in Cross-row, Stanley-green, Middlesex. My mother has been dead six or seven years—the prisoner lived as servant with me, and was servant to my mother in her life-time—she has lived altogether in the family better than twelve years—since my mother's death nobody has lived in the house but the prisoner and myself—on Thursday
evening, the 26th of November, I went to Stoney-school, and returned home at a little eight o'clock (perhaps ten minutes or a quarter of an hour)—It rained very much indeed—the prisoner opened the door—she took my umbrlla from me at the door, and gave me a candle to go up stairs to take my bonnet and cloak off—when I came down I asked her where my umbrella was put—she told me, in the coal-hole to drain—I came into the kitchen, and asked if she had finished a cap, and she showed me a cap she was working—I said, "Have you done any more?"—she held her work up, and there was a small bit done—I said, "Well, now I will sit down, and do a little work too before my supper"—I sat down, and worked for about ten minutes—not exceeding that—she sat facing me by the kitchen-table—she then went round the table to the back of me, by the dresser—when she got to the dresser, she immediately laid hold of the back of my head, and came round my shoulder, and put the carving knife into my mouth—she had got the knife out of the wash-house—I did not see her get it—must have been before I came home—she must have taken it from the dresser—she could not have taken it from any other place—I did not see where she got it form, before she put it into my mouth—I cannot tell any thing further, till I was on the ground, crying, "Murder"—I cried "Murder" very loud, and the neighbours heard, me on each side—the carving-knife cut me very much indeed in the mouth, at the side of my lip inside the cheek—I dare say in extended as long as an inch and a half, from the commencement—It appeared to me a deep cut, but the doctor can tell better than I can—I was on the floor, perhaps, two minutes, or more; but I remember screaming loud, "Murder"—how I came on the floor, it is not in my power to tell—I can only remember crying "Murder," and scuffling till I got to the street door, and her pulling me back; but I had suficient presence of mind. both to unbolt the door, and unlock it—the prisoner was pulling me back by the hair of my head, as I went to the passage to open the street door—she pulld me back—I opened the street door myself—she was pulling my hair at the time—the neighbours on each side were at the door—she tried to push the door too, and some man passing by put his knee in, and opened it—the prisoner tried to shut it—when I opened it, I unbolted it and unlocked it—my next door neighbour, Mrs. pulling, was standing there; and I said, "Mrs. Pulling, my servant has murdered me"—I had observed that the prisoner had brought the carving-knife in at tea time, with two of my best knives; and I said; "There is two of my best knives out of the case, Susan"—this was in the parlour—she said they had been in a very bad condition, and she had cleaned them all—I said, "Oh, very well;" but I knew they had not been cleaned—she brought them to me to show me that they were cleaned; and I said, "What does the carver do here?"—the carving-knife was in the kitchen at that time—she made no answer, but wiped it through her apron, and took it immediately into the wash-house—this conversation was between five and six o'clock—I never heard her say any thing about any will I had made—I never knew she knew of it—I never she her look at any paper, not ever heard her name it—she has lived with me and my mother upwards of twelve years—for the last two years, I have observed a good deal of bad conduct about her—I consider her mind had been very different from what it used to be—If I may judge by her actions, I consider she has not been right in her mind for the last two years.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. If I am informed right, your
mother was particularly kind to her? A. She has been treated like one of the family during the whole time—my family and friends have warned me against her conduct lately—they have warned me that my life was in danger—I have slept with my door unlocked till the last twelve months—had I considered myself in danger I should not have kept her—I considered her ignorant, and her mind affected, but not violent—I have kept my door bolted for the last fifteen months—I considered her of weak mind, but not mischievous—she told me she had written to the King and Queen, and she had had a most gracious answer from them, and her Majesty had promised to take her into the Palace—I said, "If you are ever protected by her Majesty I think it will be in a lunatic asylum"—she made no answer to that—she is not a woman that gave many answers, for she considered, she said, that her yea should be yea, and her nay, nay—I remember, on several occasions, her talking strangely and weakly—she once tapped at the wall, at the back of her bed's head, and said, "Madam, are you asleep?"—I said, "No, I am not"—she said, "I am dying; don't be alarmed," and the next morning, I said to her, when I got up, "If you frighten me in that manner again you shan't stop with me"—she said, "God forbid I should ever leave the family; I hope I shall be with them till I die"—I think her mind has been decidedly wandering for the last two years—she ought to know right from wrong, but at times I consider she did not.
SAMUEL LAX . On the evening of the 26th of November, I was going along Stepney-green, past Miss Scott's house, between eight and nine o'clock, and heard cries of "Murder"—I heard a struggling in the passage—I knocked at the door, and it was partly opened, as I suppose by Miss Scott—I could not see who opened it—I looked in, and saw Miss Scott's face covered with blood, and saw the prisoner pulling her mistress by the hair of her head backwards—the prisoner tried to close the door with her left hand—there was a difficulty in opening the door, from her trying to close it—I forced my way in, and got Miss Scott away from her with great exertion—the prisoner then went to the end of the passage, and sat on the foot of the stairs—she held by the banisters—I told her she must go to the station-house—she said she would not till her "lord and muster" Mr. Gag en came—she gave no description of Mr. Gagen, besides calling him her" lord and master"—I gave her into custody to the policeman.
JOHN RAVEN . I am a policeman. I was at Miss Scott's house on the evening of the 26th November, and saw the prisoner there—she had her arms holding round the banisters—I asked her what was the matter—she said a quarrel had ensued between her and her mistress, and if she had not taken the knife from her mistress, her mistress would have stabbed her—she said nothing else—Miss Scott was standing over her—she said nothing, but gave her into custody, and desired me to take her to the station-house—Miss Scott was covered with blood—I took the prisoner to the station-house, and as we passed by Mr. Gagen's house, she caught hold of the railing of his house, and said she wished to see her "lord and master"—she was taken away, and told she could not see him then.
SAMUEL JOHN HAM . I am a police inspector. The prisoner was brought to the station-house on Thursday, the 26th of November—I went to Miss Scott's house, and this knife, stained with blood, was handed to me—the marks are now on it (produced)—I have had it in my care ever since—on my return to the station-house, I asked the prisoner what could induce her to commit such an act—she said she had not done any thing—I
told her she had cut her mistress very severely—she said she had not done it, and if she had, it must have been in the straggle with her mistress, for she was a very violent woman—I did not put any more questions to her—I considered there was a degree of wildness in her manner—I did not consider her in her senses—I searched her boxes afterwards, and found in one box a tinder-box, with apparently new tinder, a flint, and matches; in another box I found a rattle, and a bag containing a quantity of candles and a small quantity of tea wrapped up in different papers—I also found a document enclosed in a dirty paper, with "anecdote" written on it, also a piece of soap, and several other trifling articles.
Cross-examined. Q. You found this in her box? A. Yes; I did not ask her any thing about the paper—I never told her I had found it.
JAMES SELF . I am a surgeon. I was called in to see Miss Scott, on Thursday, the 26th of November—I found her bleeding from several wounds—one wound was inside her mouth; that was about an inch or an inch and a half long—I could hardly ascertain the depth of it, it could not be very deep, or it would have come through—It was from the angle of the mouth, backwards towards the throat—It looked a severe wound at first, but it healed quickly, in the course of a week—I think I found one wound on the left cheek—that was not a severe wound—there were three or four on her left hand.
Cross-examined. Q. Are you at all acquainted with cases of insanity? A. I have attended several—It is an undoubted fact that insanity is very often hereditary in a family—I have known many instances of it.
(During the proceedings of this trial, the prisoner constantly interrupted the witness, declaring their evidence to be false, &c.)
Prisoner's Defence. I am not guilty of the charge—my lady is naturally of a violent temper, so much so, that my life was truly miserable: but I determined in my own mind to endure it continually, in hopes, if I survived her, I should go and live with the remainder of the family, where I knew I should be truly happy—during her mother's time she was so violent, but her mother being an amiable disposition, I could always fly to her for succour; but since her death my life has been miserable—I am not guilty of the charge—I only acted in my own defence—when I was going to lay the cloth for supper, my lady knocked me down, with a candle in my hand, and the knife also, and we were both in the dark—she called "Murder"—I held her because I thought she would lay murder to my charge, thought I knew I was innocent—I was taken to the station-house, and what has happened since I cannot tell.
JOSEPH BLAKE . I am a baker and miller, and am the prisoner's uncle—her father's brother—her father is dead—he was not in his senses when he died, nor had he been for some time—I believe one of the prisoner's brothers died insane—I think he was twelve of fourteen years old when he died.
GEORGE RIDER GAGEN . I am a surveyor. I am the person the prisoner calls her lord and master—I have known her ever since she has been in Miss Scott's family—I am brother-in-law to Miss Scott—I have observed the prisoner's manners and conduct for the last two or three years—I considered her insane, and particularly requested my sister to get rid of her—I have considered her a complete religious fanatic for some years—her habit lately has been to call me, "My lord"—I don't know why she called me so—she once stated that I got into her bed-room window in the middle of the night, and was reading the Bible to her all the night—she did not tell me so—she told my sister so—I have heard the prisoner say so herself
and she said a butcher was coming in at the window to murder them both in the middle of the night; but I did not hear that myself—from what I have heard of her, I should not be surprised at any act she committed—I repeatedly cautioned my sister against her—my sister always treated her very kindly—this letter (looking at it) is in her hand-writing—It is addressed to the stock-broker who is the broker of the family—she had no money in the funds—the money mentioned here is money belonging to the family—she acknowledged it was her hand-writing before the magistrate—(letter read) "Mr. Chant, sen., stock-broker, of the letter S, Please to pay to Susanna Blake, or more generally known as the daughter of Scion, the interests of her ladyship's property, Mrs. Elizabeth Scott, lately received by Miss Mildered Scott; also the interests of her ladyship's, Mrs. Georgiama Gagen's property, which is a portion of the above-named property; but if it is not divided in the bank-books, I must trust to your honour and honesty to deliver to me the interest of the whole, for I am not furnished with the account of the exact sum. I therefore beseech you to deal fairly by me, by paying into my hands the same sum that was lately received by Miss Mildred Scott, for I am authorized thus to plead for it by the free will and command of my lord, Mr. George Rider Gagen, who is the only surviving son by the union of marriage of her ladyship, Mrs. Elizabeth Scott. But if this account is not believed by the gentleman who acts as broker, I am willing to wait until a messenger is sent to my own residence, No. 5, Cross-row, Stoney-green, Mile-end, Old Town, and also my lord's residence, that himself and family now occupy, No. 11, Rowland's-row, Stepney-green, Mile-end, Old Town. This will prove that I am in very deed the same person whom my lord hath, with the joint consent of his lady, Mrs. Georgiana Gagen, been graciously pleased to give his power, first to put into his lady's hands her own private property, and the remainder for my own use. I have therefore presented my own person as a witness to my lord's will.
NOT GUILTY, being Insane.
Before Mr. Baron Parker.
217. JAMES WATTS was indicted , for that he, having been convicted as an Utterer of counter fait coin, did afterwards, on the 2nd of December, unlawfully, unjustly, deceitfully, and feloniously utter and put off to one John Morris a counterfeit half-crown, well knowing it to be counterfeited
The Hon. MR. SCARLETT and MR. ELLIS conducted the Prosecution.
MR. CALER EDWARD POWELL . I am assistant solicitor to the Mint. I produce a copy of the record of the conviction of James Waltts, with another, for uttering counterfeit coin at Middlesex Sessions, Dec. 1833. I have examined it with the original record at the office of the clerk of the peace, and it is correct (read.)
JOHN FISHWICH SUMMERSELL . I am a turnkey of the House of Correction, Coldhath-fields. I am acquainted with the prisoner's person—he was convicted in January, and was in my custody after his conviction.
JANE MORRIS . I am the daughter of John Morris, a publican, in Sandy-row, Petticoat-lane, which leads out of Bishopsgate-street. I know the prisoner from seeing him at our house on Monday morning, the 30th of November—I had never seen him before, to my knowledge—I have not a doubt of his being the person—It was about eight o'clock in the morning—he came to the bar with another man—the prisoner called for two three halfpenny worth of gin and peppermint—I served him, and he offered me
a half-crown, for which I gave him 2s. 3d.—he took the change, and went away—my father came down stairs, and was in the bar when the prisoner went away—I gave my father the half-crown—It had not been out of my hand till then.
JOHN MORRIS . I saw the prisoner on Monday morning, the 30th of November—my daughter was at the bar, and sent up for some money to give change—I came down with the money, and saw the prisoner and another man with him—my daughter said she wanted change for a half-crown, which she gave me in the prisoner's presence—I discovered it was bad the moment the prisoner was gone, and I put it on the shelf in my bar—It remained there till I gave it to the officer, who afterwards took him into custody—I can positively declare I gave him the same half-crown—I know it by a mark—the prisoner came in with the same man on the Wednesday evening, about five o'clock—I was in the bar alone—they asked for two drops of gin—I knew them again the moment they came into the house—after serving them, the prisoner tendered me half-a-crown—I looked at it, and found it was good, and was in the act of putting it into the till, and giving him change, when he said he thought he had halfpence enough to pay for it—It came to three-pence—he had some halfpence in his hand, and he turned to his companion, and asked him if he had got a halfpenny—his comapnion said he thought he had—he fumbled in his waistcoat pocket, and then replied that he had not—upon that the prisoner said, "Then you must give me change"—he immediately put another half-crown down on the counter, and the moment I took it up, I discovered it was a bad one—I then turned myself sideways from the counter to go into my barparlour—I had a policeman in the parlour, and was turning round to call him to take them both into custody, when the one who stood next to the door, seeing my motive, walked out of the house—he stood close against the door—I did not see at what pace he went away—the prisoner staid at the bar—I came back with the policeman—when I was going from the counter to my bar-parlour, the prisoner said "Never mind about change, you can give me the half-crown I have got three-pence," and he put three penny-pieces on the counter—he had before asked his companion for a halfpenny—I brought the policeman round, and gave him in charge, and then he took the three penny pieces off the counter, and put them into his pocket—I gave the half-crown to the policeman—also the one which had been passed on Monday—I took it from the shelf where I had put it.
EDWARD KIRBY DARLING . I am a policeman. I took the prisoner into custody on the 2nd of December—I saw him at the bar—I saw him take up the three-pence, and put it in his left hand waistcoat pocket—I took him to the station-house, and searched him, but found nothing more than three penny pieces—I received two bad half-crowns from Mr. Morris, and have had them ever since—I marked them.
JOHN FIELD . I am inspector of coins to the Mint. These half-crowns are both counterfeit, and both impressed from the same mould—they are alike in every respect—I can speak with confidence about their being from the same mould—In the letters of the word "Gratis," there is a defect in the mould.
Prisoner's Defence. On Monday morning, the 30th of November, I was at a lady's house in Union-place, Carta in-road, at seven o'clock, and never left until nine o'clock—I then accompanied the lady to Bartholomew's Hospital to see her daughter, and never left her till half-past ten o'clock.
November, at a little after seven in the morning—he said until half-past eight o'clock—I am not exactly certain that it was half-past eight o'clock, but he went with me to St. Bartholomew's Hospital—we had to be there by nine o'clock, and we came out at ten o'clock—It takes us half an hour to walk there—we went together—he remained there with me till a quarter past ten o'clock—he walked back with me, as far as White cross-street, and I parted with him there—I never lost sight of him in the mean time.
MR. SCARLETT. Q. How far is Petticoat-lane from your house? A. I suppose about a quarter of a mile—I do not know Mr. Morris's, at all—I went to see a friend of mine at the hospital—I was very little acquainted with the prisoner—I saw him on Sunday in the Curtain-road—he has a stable there—he said, "How is Mrs. King?"—I said, "She is in the hospital"—he said he should like to see her—I said, "Well, I am going to-morrow morning, if you like to come, you can go with me, but do not keep me waiting"—he came to my house a little after seven o'clock, and breakfasted with my sons—my little girl, twelve years old, was there, who helps to get breakfast for the family every morning—I know it was the 30th of November, because I went to the hospital that morning, and have not been since.
COURT. Q. Did you know when he was taken up? A. I did not know it till he was taken to the compter—I am not sure whether that was not on the Thursday week after, and when I saw him at the Manison-house I asked him what brought him there—he said he was accused of a bad half-crown on the Monday—they had sent me word that he was taken—I went before the Lord Mayor the same day.
MR. SCARLETT. Q. Did he breakfast with you? A. He did with my sons—I had my breakfast very early—they breakfasted at seven o'clock, or a few minutes after—I breakfasted before them—they breakfasted in the parlour—the kitchen is a small room, not large enough for my family—I was in the room when they breakfasted—my son did not go with me to the hospital—he did not know the person I went to see—he was forced to be at work—It was Mrs. King, my daughter, who was in the hospital.
COURT. Q. You are sure you went before the Magistrate on the Thursday week, after you went to the hospital, it was not the same week? A. I believe it was the same week—It was the Monday before he was at the Compter—It was the same week that I went before the Lord Mayor that I went to the hospital with him—I am quite sure it was not the week after—I am quite sure it was the same week.
MR. SCARLETT. Q. On which side of the table did the prisoner sit at breakfast? A. On the right hand side—the window is on the left hand—he sat with his face towards the window—my sons sat opposite each other—I am quite sure my sons went no part of the way towards the hospital.
COURT. Q. Had you any gin and water that morning? A. Nothing at all—I am not in the habit of drinking gin, or gin and water—the prisoner did not have any, to my knowledge—I staid at the hospital an hour—they do not let us in till nine o'clock, and then we are out about ten o'clock—there is only an hour allowed—the prisoner staid with me the whole time—my son is too frightened to come here—he said he should never go out alive if he came.
HENRY NEGUS . The prisoner was at my father's and mother's house, on the 30th of November, and he breakfasted with me, and my brother, and mother—he came at seven o'clock, or a little after—I had seen him two or
three times before at my mother's house—he never breakfasted at our house before—I do not know how long he staid at breakfast—I do not know at what time he went away—I had to go out with a cab at half-past seven o'clock—I left my brother there—he is out now with a cab—that is all I know—we are both cab drivers—I believe he came that morning to go to see my sister at the hospital—he knew my sister before.
MR. ELLIS. Q. How many of you were there at breakfast? A. Me, my brother, sister, and mother—I am quite sure all four were there—my mother breakfasted with us—I am quite sure of that; my mother had toast and tea, and bread and butter for breakfast—we all sat down to breakfast together—we were all sitting down to breakfast when the prisoner came in—the prisoner sat on the right hand side of the room when he came in—the window is on the left hand side—I sat close to the window—I know it was on the 30th of November, for I was told so by my mother on the morning, as I asked about the day of the month—I asked her what the day of the month was, about three o'clock in the afternoon, when I came in to change horses—I ask the day of the month almost every day I go out, in case any body might dupe me—I know the 30th was the day the prisoner was there.
COURT. Q. Which side of the room is the window? A. The window is on the left hand side of the room—my mother sat near the fire, and my sister and me as near the fire as could be—my sister is not here.
GUILTY . Aged 23.— Transported for Seven Years.
Before Mr. Justice Littledale.
218. SAMUEL KEYTON was indicted for feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of Job Aston, on the 24th of November, at St. Luke, Middle sex, and stealing therein 48 bushels of oats, value 7l., his property.
MR. PHILLIPS conducted the Prosecution.
JOB ASHTON . I am a salt-merchant and corn-dealer. This is a correct plan of my premises, (looking at one,) which are No. 34, Wharf-road, Citybasin—this accurately represents the prisoner's stable—there is an aperture in the wood work sufficient for me to get through—It is from two to three feet from the ground—this represents where my granary is—a person coming through the aperture could walk along, and get up to my granary—the aperture was in the prisoner's wall—I entered on my premises the beginning of August—I put corn into the granary on the 7th of August—on the 25th of November I missed the corn in question—It was in two bulks—I had the bulk measured—I thought there was from seven to ten quarters gone—It was Irish potato oats—they were hut and musty—I did not know M'Dougal at that time—I saw him that evening, and, in consequence of what passed, I saw the prisoner about seven or half-past seven o'clock, at his own house—I told him I heard that he had got the key of my granary of corn warehouse, and desired him to give it up to me—he said he had not got it, and never had it, and did not know any thing about it—I told him I had just heard it from M. Doug al, who was in the Macclesfield Arms, and if he would go over there with me to see him, face to face, I should be satisfied—as M. Dougal had told me he had given the key to him himself—he said he was willing to go, and I was welcome to search his house—we went together with the policeman to the Macclesfield Arms—we found M. Dougal there sitting in the parlour—I asked him to walk out into the street,
and asked him if he had given the prisoner the key of the warehouse, as he had represented to me before—he said he had given him the key—the prisoner denied it—M'Dougal said, "It was in the shed, by the side of your house, the week after Mr. Ashton took possession of his premises," and he said, "At the time I passed the key to you, requesting you would be kind enough to send it to Mr. Ashton, you took it in your hand, and turned the key in the door, either one way or other, I do not remember which, you turned it in the lock, and said, "It is a useful key, and might be useful for many purposes"—the prisoner said he never had it—I am sure he said so—M'Dougal said, "What I have stated is correct, and I will make an oath of it before any judge or magistrate who I am called before"—I then gave the prisoner into custody—his pockets were searched at the station-house—he pulled a handful of oats out of his pocket—they were not my oats—the prisoner said, "These are the oats I have had in to-day from Tarling and Maides, and I have got no other sort of oats"—he then said the last time he saw the key of the warehouse it was behind the door of a shed, by the side of his house, under some plaster of Paris heads—he said nothing more about the key them—I and the policeman went to the prisoner's stable—I found six horses feeding there on oats, split beans, and clover chaff mixed up together—I took a handful of chaff, beans, and oats, away—the policeman and I went to my shop, and separated the oats—I kept half myself, and gave half to the policeman—I have brought that sample with me—I have a sample of the oats from the bulk they were stolen from—I believe the oats found in the prisoner's stable to be the same as are in my bulk, because they are musty—I tasted them as I came along by the dock—what he gave me from his pocket were new—these were old—the oats in his stable were the same kind as my Irish potato oats—I have been in the corn trade thirty-five years.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Are the oats from the bulk marked distinct from what was found in the bin? A. They are marked as they were found—those in the prisoner's pocket were not mixed with chaff—here is a sample from the bulk, from the prisoner's pocket, from the the bin, and from a small tub in the prisoner's loft—the prisoner took his place, I understand, about six months ago—I do not know whether I said any thing about the hole in the stable before the Magistrate or not—I was not asked about it—It was a hold with a sack hanging over it—as if there had been a window there—I should suppose there has never been a window—It is weather boarding, and is a hole cut through—I dare say I told the Magistrate that the oats were musty and hot—my evidence was road over to me before I signed it—I told the Magistrate they were musty—I am quite sure that was road over to me before I signed it, for I read it myself—the prisoner was in his premises before I came there—there is a shed adjoining his premises—I do not know that Benson and Co. held the shed of him—M'Dougal is an entire stranger to me—I know Mr. Maides by sight—when I first went to the prisoner I found him in his loft—I asked him if he had seen any body carry corn off my premises—his wife and another person were there—I saw they were agitated very much, and from there I went down to Mr. Howard—they said they had never seen any body go off the wharf with corn—I called on Tarling and Maides about twelve o'clock, and said I suspected the prisoner—I believe them to be a respectable house—I told Mr. Maides that I suspected Key ton of stealing oats—this was before I had seen M'Dougal.
Q. Did you not say, from the quantity taken, positive
they had been put into a barge, as it was easy to load a barge from your granary? A. I could not say it, for I did not know how they went—I believe Mr. Maides made the same observation himself, that they had had corn stolen—I might have said what you asked me, but I cannot recollect that I did—Mr. Maides told me the prisoner could have no interest in stealing corn, for he had assigned all his property, and they furnished the prisoner with every thing—he told me they furnished him with corn, clover, and hay—a quarter of each a-week—he produced to me the bill of parcels which was sent with it—he said, that was what he allowed his horses—he did not say it was as much as they could eat—I am quite sure of—I believe he told me that he had bought 10qrs. of oats, and 15cwt. of split peas, that morning, principally for Keyton's use—he showed me the bill of it from Ellis and Co.—I had not gone near the prisoner's premises at that time—Maidens said his cart was gone to Ellis for some of the corn, and would return in a few minutes, and if I would wait till the cart came, I might satisfy myself—he did not tell me he would go to Keaton's, and see the corn delivered at the stable—he promised to call on me, and inform me if there was any corn—he did not say, that we would go together, and search Keyton's premises, before I expressed to Keaton my suspicion of this—I swear he said nothing of the kind—he told his car man to look if there was any corn there—I was never asked to go there—the cart arrived while I was talking to Mr. Maides—he said to the car man, "What have you got?"—he told him 3 qrs. of split beans, and he said, "Well, leave one quarter here, and take the rest to Keaton's"—he ordered the carman to bring one quarter into the counting-house, and he said to the man, who brought the second sack, "Bill, I charge you to look all over Keyton's premises, and one if he has got any corn there, and bring a handfull off the premises"—he said, "I am going there myself, but if you see any corn, take a sample, and give it to me"—I do not believe I should know the man again if I saw him—Mr. Maides did not request me to wait at his house till the man came back, for he promised to call at my shop—he might ask me—I believe I did not refuse to wait—I will swear I did not—I went home—I saw Mr. Maides at my shop (about two o'clock that day,) before I made any charge against the prisoner—he told me that the man he sent to search the premises, had reported that there was no corn whatever on the premises.
Q. Did he not say, on that occasion, that the first thing for you to do would be to go immediately to Keyton's premises, and make a thorough search? A. No such observation at any time—he did not say the best plan would be to go to Keyton's immediately and make a thorough search—he did not propose it—I have no recollection of it—I swear positively it did not happen at any time—I have no knowledge of saying there was no occasion, as I was quite satisfied of what had been done, and there were others I suspected much more than Keyton—I will not swear I did not say so, it is so long ago—I cannot say that I did or did not—I believe I was not asked, I should say I would not go—I cannot say whether I was asked or not—I might be, and I might not—I I cannot say that I said so—the only doubt is if I was asked the question, I am sure I should not accept the offer—I had the things missing, and suspected my other servants—I did not know who to suspect at first.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. You said something of what Mr. Ma ides said about
oats? A. Mr. Maides' clerk stated to me, that if there were any oats on the premises of a different colour to yellow, it could not be what they sent in the last time—my conversation with Maides was before I knew any thing about M'Dougal and the key.
NATHANIEL CARTER . I am a policeman. On the evening of the 25th of November I went with the prosecutor to the prisoner's house, and heard him ask the prisoner for the key of his granary—the prisoner said he had not got it, and knew nothing about it—Ashton asked him to go with him to the Macclesfield Arms—the prisoner said he would go with him any where he liked; and we all three went over—Mr. Ashton called M'Dougal out, and asked him whether he did not give the prisoner the key of his granary—M'Dougal said he did—the prisoner said he did not—Ash ton then gave the prisoner into my custody—M'Dougal said he gave the prisoner the key as he was sitting on the end of a bench in a shed, and I do not remember any thing more—I asked him about the key of Mr. Ashton's granary—he said there was the key or a key belonging to Mr. Ashton's granary hanging behind the door in a shed under some heads—Mr. Ashton and I went to the shed, and saw some plaster of Paris heads, but found no key—M'Dougal went with us—I saw Ashton take a sample of oats from the prisoner's stable, and I have kept some myself—I have kept it safe ever since—here is a sample—I got it from the prisoner's pocket—here is a sample Mr. Ashton gave me—It is part of the sample I saw him find in the stable, and here is the sample from Mr. Ashton's bulk in his granary.
Cross-examined. Q. You took the sample from the bulk yourself? A. Yes—I am quite sure M'Dougal said, the key in the shed belonged to Mr. Ashton's granary—when I was giving evidence at the office, before Mr. Heritage, jun., Mr. Ashton stated this himself, inadvertantly, just at the time I had got to those words; and Mr. Heritage, thinking they were put into my mouth, refused to take them down—Mr. Ashton was not under examination at the time he was in the room—the prisoner said either "n key", or "the key"; or "the key, or "a key", I do not recollect which—he did not say he ever had possession of it—he said it was hanging up in the shed—I do not know that the shed was occupied by Mr. Benson, M'Dougal's master—I was just going to say, "belonging to Mr. Ashton's warehouse"—when Mr. Ashton put it into my mouth, and the clerk would not put it down.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Do you remember a gentleman insisting on the clerk taking it down, and the clerk refusing? A. Yes; I was about to mention it when Mr. Ashton interfered.
THOMAS FRISBY . I am a labourer—I sometimes work for Mr. Ashton. On the 26th of November last I went to the stable of the prisoner, about eleven o'clock in the afternoon, by Mr. Ashton's desire—there were no horses in the stable—there were no oats there—I want up into the loft and found some oats—there were two quantitites—one quantity in a kind of corn-bin, and the other in a large barrel, or cask—they were not of the same quality—the quantity in the bin was a musty oat—I smelt it—there were two men there, and they measured the oats—I saw some split beans in the cask with the oats, which were not musty—I am sure it was the cast they were in—the mustry oats were in a bin by themselves.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you know the men who were measuring? A. I should know them if I saw them—they measured the musty oats first, and then the clean ones—they did not measure the beans—I told them I
came from Mr. Ashton—not the least impediment was offered to us—I told Mr. Ashton's brother that I had been, as soon as I came from the stable—Mr. Ashton was not at home—the oats were not both the name sort—I have not brought a sample of them—I was in Mr. Ashton's employ at that time and two days before—I am not working for him now—I worked for him last week—I have known the prisoner three years living there, I dare my—I did not bring any sample of oats to my master—I was brought up to forming—I have lately kept a grocer's shop—I have been out with Mr. Ashton's clerk, carrying out salt—I went there on the 26th of November, the day after the prisoner was in custody.
DOUGAL M'DOUGAL . I am a plasterer, and live in Regent-street, City-road. I kept the key of the granary before Mr. Ashton came into possession of it—It was in my possession, from February till Mr. Ashton took possession in July—there were two keys to the granary—I kept one the greater part of the time I had possession of the granary—I returned one of the keys four or five days after Mr. Ashton took possession, as I was in the country till that time—I gave it to the prisoner in my shop, and asked him to be kind enough to pass it to Mr. Ashton, as it did not look very well for one person to hold the key of another person's premises—he said he would, and I gave him the key—he was sitting on the end of my bench, we were talking and joking together, about the affairs of the day; and he jokingly put the key into the door, and turned the key; and made a remark, in a jocular kind of way, that the key might be useful—I thought it a joke—I have never seen it since.
Cross-examined. Q. When was it you came to town? A. One Saturday evening—I think, on the 18th of July—I took a memorandum of the date this morning in this book (producing one)—Mr. Ashton took possession between the 11th and the 18th—I know the date, because I employed labourers to clear the place out, on Sunday morning, the 19th of July, there was something which I desired the prosecutor to let remain; and the prisoner borrowed Mr. Ashton's key to get to the premises that day—I had not given him the key myself then—I did not see Mr. Ashton for a week after I came to town, I think, as I was lame—I walked about on my business—I was on the premises where the granary is on the Sunday morning after I came to town—I am not certain of the day I gave the key to the prisoner—It was within a week after I came to town—I did not see Mr. Ashton that week at all.
Q. What difficulty had you in giving the key to Mr. Ashton himself, instead of employing another person? A. The only difficulty was, he was not in my way, I did not meet him—I had full confidence in the prisoner—he bore the highest character in the neighbourhood—I live about a quarter of a mile from Mr. Ashton—I occupy the shed next to the prisoner's house, where the key was hanging; at least Mr. Benson, my master, does—I cannot tell whether I had been into the shed on the 24th of November—I cannot say I was not there on the 24th, 25th, and 28th—I am not there sometimes for a fortnight together—I was not there the day the prisoner was taken into custody—I am not aware that I was—I will not swear I was not there the day before, or the day after—the evening he was taken into custody I went there with the policeman—I am not aware that I was there in the morning—there are many books in the shed—I never saw a key hanging there, on my oath—he tried the door in a jocular sort of way—It was the street-door of the shed he tried, not the door of the granary—It fitted the street-door—I did not tell Mr. Ashton that I had given the prisoner the key till he called on me—I saw him repeatedly afterwards—he
never complained to me that he was robbed—I was not on the premises very often—I cannot tell you whether I was there on the 23rd, 22nd, 21st, or 20th—I do not know—I have no particular recollection of being there—I go there when I want any thing—I do not work there as I used to do—when I charged the prisoner about the key, he denied the truth of all I said.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Did any body every charge you with stealing the oats? A. Never; Mr. Ashton came and asked me what I had done with the key, and I told him at once.
MR. CLARKSON. Q. How came Mr. Ash ton to know you had the key? A. I cannot tell.
JOB ASHTON re-examined. Howard's foreman came to my shop at night, and in consequence of information I had, I asked M'Dougal about the key—I never found the door of my granary broken open—I paid 20s. a quarter for the corn.
THOMAS ROBERTS . I work at the salt-works, but am not in Mr. Ash ton's's employ. I remember turning over some oats in Ash ton's's granary, on the 21st of November, and on Wednesday the 25th, by his direction, I turned over the oats in the same place, and there was a great deficiency—I cannot say how much, but there was less than before—there was more than a bushel gone—I measured them on the 25th, there was 52 qursh. and 7 bsh.—I did not measure them before.
JAMES CAIN . I am in Mr. Ashton's employ. On the 16th of November, I remember 60 qrs. of oats being delivered by Gumm, they were put in the loft in the granary—none of that corn was taken away up to the 24th of November, to my knowledge—I shut up the premises on the 24th—I saw the corn before I shut them up, and it appeared to be safe.
ROBERT MARRIOTT . I am a chaff-cutter. I have been in the prisoner's employ—I worked for him on the 24th of November, and some little corn on his premises, mixed up among the chaff—there might be about a couple of bushels of beans and oats mixed together—It was put into the bin which the horses are fed from—the prisoner was in the loft part of the time—the carman told him that was the last of the corn—the prisoner said he should have more to-morrow, and those sacks were to be sent home, for he was not going to have his corn from the same place next time—I do not know who he had the last corn from.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know Maides and Tarling? A. Yes; they sometimes buy corn from one place, and sometimes from another—from seven or eight different persons.
Prisoner's Defence. The corn I had on my premises, Tarling and Maides sent me—I am a carman, and find horses for carriers for different wharfs.
WILLIAM MAIDES . I am in partnership with Mr. Tarling; we are hay salesman in Smithfield. I know the prisoner—he became embarrassed in his affairs in October last; and being unable to make up a composition, he arranged with his creditors—we lent him about 200l. for that purpose—I always considered him a highly respectable honest man—In consequence of an arrangement between us, his household furniture and horses were assigned to me and my partner, as trustees for the creditors—he had six
horses at that time—we took possession of all he had—we allowed him the use of his furniture and horses—he received 1l. a week from us, and 18s. for each of his journeymen-carmen, which was 1l. 16s.—he accounted to us every week, from the 13th of October, up to the time thin charge was preferred, for the proceeds of his business—we were to find fodder for his horses; and did so—we allowed him quite sufficient—he conducted himself to our entire satisfaction—Mr. Ashton called on me on Wednesday, the 24th of November; and we had a conversation—I explained to him the situation the prisoner was in, and that he could have no interest in stealing corn for his horses—I told him the quantity we allowed him for his horses, and I produced a bill of parcels, from Ellis—I said I had that moment purchased 10 quarters of oats, and 5 quaters of beans; the whole intended for him—I told him we allowed the prisoner a quarter of oats, and 3 cwt. of split-beans, making together 18 bushels; and an unlimited quantity of clover, cut and chaff, for the six horses; and that it was at the rate of 3 bushels of corn per week, for each horse; which was amply sufficient, and as much as they could eat—I said, if he pleased, I would go with him, and see the corn I had ordered for the prisoner that morning, delivered at the premises; and make a thorough search of them, before the prisoner knew he charged him with any thing, to see if he had any corn on the premises—he declined going—while we were talking the cart came up—I sent for the cart—there were four quarters of oats, and one of split beans in it—I desired the carman in the presence of Mr. Ashton, to bring one quarter into the counting house, out of the cart, and to take the remainder to the prisoners—I did not tell him to take only two quarters to the prisoners—I directed the carman to search the prisoner's stable carefully, and if he found say corn there besides what he was taking, to be sure to bring me a sample of it—that was in Mr. Ashton's presence—I cannot charge my memory, whether I did, or did not request Mr. Ashton to wait till the man returned—I saw Mr. Ashton again at his own house about two o'clock—the first meeting was between twelve and one o'clock—I went to him at two o'clock by appointment—I told him that carman had returned, and told me he had examined the prisoner's premises, and there was not corn there except what he took—I particularly preased on him twice before I left him, to go immediately with me to the prisoner's premises, and make a further search, as he was unconscious of any charge against him—this was before he had made any charge against the prisoner—he declined to go, and said he was quite satisfied with what had been done, and there were others he suspected much more than he did the prisoner—he told me in the counting-house, when I named about the search, that if he saw the oats he could not swear to them—I have known the prisoner about three years—he has lived all that time at the basin, respectably, as far as I ever heard—I never heard his character impeached by any body—his conduct was to the entire satisfaction of myself, and his creditors—I believe he has two children.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Did you see the corn that was sent to the prisoner's premises? A. I did not, Mr. Elliott did—I bought it—It was very good Irish oats—the quality was about 40lbs. to a bushel—there is potato Irish oats, and what is commonly called Irish oats—those I bought were not potato oats.
MR. CLARKSON. Q. What is the difference between Irish, and potato oats? A. Potato oats are smaller and thicker—I saw the oats on the prisoner's
premises afterwards, and they were the same I had bought—I examined them about half-past nine o'clock on Thursday morning—I firmly believe them to be those I bought.
GEORGE CROSS . I am shopman to Mr. Elliott, a corn dealer in St. John-street. I remember Tarling and Maides purchasing ten quarters of oats, and three quarters of split beans—I and Stafford went to the granary together, and measured them—I think I know Irish potato oats—there is scarcely any difference between them and Irish oats—I have been more than two years in the business—I measured them out—they were put into sacks, and on the same day two men came with a horse and cart for them—I sent four quarters of oats, and one of split beans away by them—I am quite certain there were four quarters of oats.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Look a these oats, what kind are they? A. I should say they are a middling kind of Irish oat—I cannot tell you the difference between Irish and Irish potato oats—I should know one form the other by the quality—I can tell by two samples whether one is better than another, but as to Irish potato oats, I am not acquainted exactly with the trade—there is a different quality, and I have heard of potato oats—they are a very short plump oat—I am not judge enough to say whether this is potato oats—there was nothing particular in the oats we sent to the prisoner—I believe I tasted them—I will not say I tasted them at the time, but when they in the smell—there was a sort of smell which a great number of oats have—they were very sweet—I should not call them musty.
MR. CLARKSON. Q. Do you believe it possible for a man to distinguish the different Irish oats, except as to their quality, whether they are plumper than others—Is there any other mode? A. Certainly not—there is a little must sometimes among clean oats—I think there was nothing about the oats we sent to the prisoner, but what was very pleasant and very usual to all oats of that description—It is not unusual for there to be must about them sometimes.
ROBERT STAFFORD . I was in the service of Mr. Elliott. I assisted in measuring ten quarters of oats, and five quarters of split beans, for Tarling and Maides—I remember their men coming for them—the first cart took away four quarters of oats, and one of split beans—I am sure there was four quarters of oats in eight sacks.
WILLIAM PARCEL . I was in the employ of Tarling and Maides. On the 25th of November I was sent to Elliott's for four quarters of oats, and one quarter of beans with a horse and cart—I brought them all to the yard gate—Mr. Miades was there, and a gentleman who I believe was the prosecutor—Mr. Miades in the gentleman's presence, told me to take three quarters of oats, and one quarter of beans to the prisoner's, and leave a loft, and see if the prisoner had any corn by him, and if he had I was to take a handfull as a sample, and bring to him—I searched the loft where the corn was shot, but saw no corn there—In the stable there was same as the present feed for the horses—the prisoner mixed a portion of the split beans in one sack among some corn out of another sack with some chaff, and put in down a shoot into the bin which the horses are fed from—I did not examine the bin in the stable before it was shot—for three, four or five brushels of corn and chaff were shot—I examined the bin while some of it was running down—I did not see exactly whether there was more in it than was shot, but there were four or five brushels in it, and that was the
quantity that had been shot—I saw no chaff in the loft, but what had laid behind the door—what the prisoner mixed up he put down into the bin himself—I thrust my arm into the bin, and took a handfull out, blow the chaff off, and could see nothing but the beans and oats I had brought, and I put it into the bin again—that was about dinner time.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. After he had shot down a quantity, you put your hand into the bin and took some of it? A. Yes; about half the quantity had gone down, which was about two and a half bushels—I can tell a sample of oats, and I think I know English oats from Irish; but I am not certain—the bin was in the stable—I saw nothing but the chaff in the loft—It laid loose on the floor—there was some oats in the bins and some in tabs—I don't know whether there was one tub or two—I did not take that notice—I will not swear there was not half a dozen—I will swear there was not a dozen—I was told to look for oats—I looked in the place where my oats went—I did not look in any other place—the left was large enough to hold a load of hay—there was no convenience for shooting any where but the floor—I saw not bins, but where I shot the oats, there were tubs.
MR. CLARKSON. Q. Did you go to count the tubs, or to see if there was any oats? A. To look for oats—I had no orders to count bins or tubs—I looked as well as I could to get the sample, as master wished.
JOHN PARKER . I am clerk to Tarling and Maides. I was in their counting-house on the 25th of November, when Mr. Ash ton was there—I heard Mr. Maidens tell him that he allowed the prisoner a quarter of oats and three wt. of beans in a week, and that it was simply sufficient, and on much as the horses could eat—Mr. Ash ton said, that he thought it was sufficeint—I heard Mr. Maides offer to go with Mr. Ashton to see the corn delivered at the prisoner's—he said he would search before the corn was delivered, to see if there was any there—Mr. Ashton said, there was no necessity for it, the was quite satisfied, and there were others he suspected more than the prisoner—the cart came up, and one quarter of oats was taken out—I did not see what was left in Mr. Maides directed the catman, in Mr. Ashton's presence, to search the prisoner's premises carefully, and if he found any corn besides what he took, to bring him a sample—I have known the prisoner for the last three years, and always a considered him a very honest man.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Was Mr. Maides present when Ashton said he would not go, as he was satisfied, and it was not necessary? A. Yes—the oats that were sent were what is generally termed Irish feed oats—the same as Irish potato oats—the common Irish oats are fuller and larger, I think, perhaps in every way—I should not call this sample a very large out—It is not small—It is what they call Irish oats; and from the knowledge I have of it I should call it potato oat; but I am not a judge—I did not smell the sample that was left at my master's.
NOT GUILTY .
Fourth Jury, before Mr. Recorder.
GUILTY .— Confined One Month.
EMANUEL MOSS . I am a dealer in clothes, and live in High-street, Shadwell. On the 28th of November I shut my shop up about twelve o'clock at night, when the prisoner knocked at the door, and said he had something to sell—he had a piece of canvass, and an old pair of trowsers—I offered him 3s. for them, which he agreed to take—I had a gas-light burning—I had no change, and knocked at the partition of my landlord's house, to bring me 3s.—In the mean time I missed my key—I looked round, and happened to go to six waistcoats which I had put in the shelves, thinking I had put the key there—I replaced them, and then the landlord came to the door to give me 3s., which I gave to the prisoner, who went away; and when I came into the shop again, I missed two waistcoats from the shelf—I went out, and found him about four doors off at the corner of Angel-gardens—I charged him with stealing the two waistcoats—he said he had not—I said, "I will give you in charge"—he said, "I must go and ease myself"—he ran into a court by the side of a wall, and I lost sight of him for about three minutes—when he came out of the court I gave him in charge of the policeman—the court is no thoroughfare—I found the waistcoats concealed on the top of the palings, up the court, about a quarter of an hour afterwards.
JAMES PORTCH (police-constable K 91.) I saw the prisoner come out of the court, and Moss gave him in charge—he made a violent resistance—It required six of us to take him to the station-house—he is a very powerful man—after putting him into the station-house, I found two waistcoats on the palings, in the court, which the prosecutor claimed—I found on the prisoner 2s. in silver—he may have lost some money in the struggle, as he was very violent—he struggled with us, endeavouring to got away—he was not struck at all.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
Prisoner's Defence. I did not steal any waistcoats—when they took me, they ill-used me very improperly—they took my money from me, and next morning said I only had 2s., but I had a half-crown, sixpence, two shillings, and some halfpence—every thing was taken out of my pocket—the policeman had hold of me, searching me, and knocking me about.
EMANUEL MOSS re-examined. I paid him half-a-crown and sixpence, but when I caught sight of him, I saw him on the step of a public-house, as if he had come out—It was not three minutes after he left me, but I heard him say to the landlord, "Take care of that for me"—that was at the Paviors' Arms, kept by Mr. Blay.
Prisoner. I did not go into that public-house—I got a quartern of gin with the halfpence I had, but I changed no silver—I laid the half-crown and sixpence on the counter, and took it up again, and put it in my pocket—I had two shillings besides, and a had sovereign about me. Witness. When he came into my shop, he said he was very badly off, and had no money at all—I gave him part of half a quartern loaf, as he said he was greatly distressed.
Prisoner. I came from Deptford on board a ship—I came ashore, and had no dinner, nor did I buy any thing for supper—I asked him to be so good as to give me a bit of bread, us it was late, and he did—any thing else I know nothing about. Witness. I kept the bread in the shop, in my chest—he must have taken the waistcoats while I went to the door to take the 3s.
GUILTY .† Aged 26.— Transported for Seven Years.
WILLIAM WARD . On the 9th of November, I was at the corner of Sackville-street, Piccadilly, and saw the prisoner take a handkerchief from Mr. Wood's coat pocket—Mr. Wood turned round, and collared him with she handkerchief.
CHARLES WOODS . I live in Piccadilly. On the 9th of December I was looking at a print-shop, in Sackville-street, and felt an unusual sensation at my pocket—I felt my pocket, and missed my handkerchief—I turned round, and saw the prisoner's hand going into his left-hand pocket—I collared him, and said that he had something not belonging to him, which he denied—I insisted on looking into his pocket, and found my handkerchief in it.
Prisoner. I was looking at the prints—a boy chucked the handkerchief on a railing, and ran away—I took it up, and put it into my pocket—the gentleman immediately collared me—I will take my with I never look it out of his pocket—It is very false to say so.
WILLIAM WARD re-examined. I had watched him and another all the way from Bond-street—they tried several gentleman's pockets before they came to the prosecutor; and they got one handkerchief half-way out of a gentleman's pocket—I saw him take the prosecutor's handkerchief.
Prisoner. I had not been down so far as Bond-street—I came from the Middlesex Hospital.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
GUILTY . Aged 18.— Transported for Seven Years.
MARY EYRE . I am the wife of Robert Eyre, and live in Prated-street, Paddington. I take in washing, and had fourteen silk handkerchiefs to wash for Mr. Barnwell—they hung on a line in the yard, on the 8th of December, at the back of my house—I was in the wash-house, and heard a knock at my door, about half-past two o'clock—I went to the door, and it was the milk girl—when I returned to the yard I saw three clothes-pegs lying on the ground—the yard is in closed by a wall four or five feet high—I missed three of the silk handkerchiefs, and went to a back gate to the yard, which I found open—It has a latch to it—I went out at the gate, and looked both ways, but saw nobody but a boy looking over a wall adjoining—he directed me after three boys running up the lane—I went out, after putting on my bonnet, but could not find them—I returned, and counted my handkerchief, and then went back—I met a policeman, and gave information at the station-house.
ALFRED BLUNDELL (police-constable T 24.) On the 8th of December, I went to the house of the prisoner Bull's father, in Peachill-street, Paddington—I found the prisoner Bull there, and his mother—I told him I wanted him on suspicion of stealing silk handkerchiefs at the back of Praed-street—he said he knew nothing about it—his mother said, "Joe, if you know any thing about it, speak the truth"—I waited till he put his shoes on—I said he must go to the station-house—he then said he did not
do it, that Alfred Davis and William Williams were with him, and that they pledged them—I asked him where Williams lived—he told me—I gave him to my brother constable, while I went to Williams's house, and inquired for him—he came down stairs—I told him I wanted him on suspicion of stealing some silk handkerchiefs from the back of Praed-street—he said he did not know any thing of them—a witness said he saw him in the lane with the other two we had just outside the door—he said in Williams's presence, "That is the boy that went up the lane;" and when we got a little way up the street, Williams said, if I would go back with him, he would show me where one of the duplicates of the handkerchief were—I went back with him up to the top of the house, on the landing; and there was a duplicate behind a frying-pan, and a piece of bread, and a bag with 6 1/2d. in it—he showed me where it was—I took him to the station-house—my brother constable took the other prisoner.
CHARLES HIERONS (police-constable T 71.) I took charge of Bull from Blundell, and in the way to the station-house we met Davis—he was standing at a public-house door—I said, "I want you"—he said, "What for?"—I said, "I will tell you presently"—I asked if he had been to any pawnbroker's shop that day—he said he had not, he was certain—I asked what he had done with the duplicates which he had—he said he had not had any—I asked him again at the station-house, and he said he had did them in the back yard of his house, behind the water-but, under a brick—I went there, and found two duplicates in the place he described, and one shilling and two sixpences.
FREDERICK OHLSON . I am a shopman to Morrison and Denning, of Upper York-street, Marylebone, pawnbrokers. I produce a silk handkerchief, pawned on the 8th of December, by a lad—there were two of them together—I thought they were two brothers, but I do not know them—the duplicate I gave them is here—It is in the hand-writing of our shop-boy—I have the counterpart here—I lent 9d. on it—It is not worth more than a shilling—It is very old—I have said I thought Williams and Bull were the boys, but I cannot swear it—when they were at High-street, they were so dirty to what they were when they came—I asked whose handkerchief it was—he said, his father's—I asked if he was sure his father sent him, he said, "Yes"—I do not know whether he asked for 2s. or 1s. 6d. on it—he said he would not take nine-pence when I offered it—but at last he said, "Very well"—I believe Williams and Bell are the boys—he said his father lived at No. 2, Wharf-road.
JAMES WALLIS . I am in the employ of Mr. Tomkinson, a pawnbroker, in Upper George-street, Bryanstone-square—I have a silk handkerchief pawned by the prisoner Davis, for 2s.—I did not take it in, but was present—he was asked who he brought it from—he said from his mother—I saw the ticket written—he answered rather abruptly to the question, and I told him to answer as he ought—that made me notice him—he said his mother's name was Elizabeth Mitchell, and she lived in John-street—I have the counterpart of the ticket here.
RICHARD WAYLETT . I am in the employ of Mr. Fairbrother, of Lissongrove, a pawnbroker. I have a silk handkerchief pawned on the 8th of December, by Davis—I asked what he wanted—he said his mother had sent him with a silk handkerchief to pawn for 2s. 6d.—I said I would lend him 1s. 6d.—he said that would not do, but afterwards took it—I asked him name, he said John Mitchell, lodging at No. 5, Wharf-road, and that his
mother's name was Elizabeth—I have the counterpart of the duplicate here.
WILLIAM YATE . I am in the employ of Mr. Cooper, of Praed-street, next door to Mrs. Eyres. On the 8th of December, I heard the three prisoners jump off the wall of the prosecutor's house—I directly went, and looked over, and saw them go up the lane all three together—they looked back—I first saw them about three or four doors from the house—I saw them all three come from the wall—they were three or four feet from the wall when I first saw them—I got on the railing and looked over, and gave information to Mrs. Eyres.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
Williams's Defence. I came out of the door of the garden—I did not jump at all.
(Mary Ann Wilkinson, the prisoner Davis's sister, of Oakley-street, Newcut, Lambeth, deposed to his good character; and Richard Jenkins, of Praed-street, to that of Williams; and Ann Beckenham, of Teal-street; Charles Comish, chair-manufacturer, Devonshire-mews, East; and James Alderman, of Upper Park-place, Marylebone, to that of Bull.)
DAVIS— GUILTY . Aged 13.
WILLIAMS— GUILTY. Aged 11. Recommended to mercy.— Confined Three Months.
BULL— GUILTY . Aged 9.— Confined Seven Days, and Whipped.
ELIZABETH WOOD. I am the wife of Edward Wood, and live in John-street, Hackney-fields. The prisoner lived two doors from us—on the night of the 11th of December, I missed, from a line in our back yard, three frocks, a flannel petticoat, and two aprons—I went to a pawnbroker's shop, in Hackney-road, and the prisoner was fetched into the shop, from out of the street, and my things produced to me by the pawnbroker—I asked her who gave them to her—she said, "No one"—I asked her how she came by them—she said she took them off the line herself—there was a policeman at the door, who took her into custody—this was a at half-past seven o'clock—I had missed them at six o'clock—I have not found my apron—these are my things.
THOMAS MUNTON . I am shopman to Mr. Kelday, a pawnbroker, in Hackney-road. On the 11th of December, Mrs. Wood came to my shop—the articles now produced were at that time on the counter, produced by the prisoner—they directly before her, and there was nobody else in the same box—the prosecutrix came into the shop, and produced the patterns of the things, and then the prisoner immediately ran out of the box—I went out and brought her back—she said nothing in my presence.
HENRY LAMBERT . I am a policeman. I took the prisoner into custody at the pawnbroker's—the prosecutrix and her were talking together—I did not distinctly hear what was said—there was a confusion in the shop at the time—I took her to the station-house, and asked her if any body gave her the things to pawn—she said, no; that she took them off the line in the yard herself—Mrs. Wood must have heard that.
MRS. WOOD re-examined. She told me in the shop that she took them off the line—I did not know her though she lives so near—she is single, and lives with her aunt.
(Joseph Stansbury, Schoolmaster, Hackney-road; William Martin, paul-street,
Finsbury; James Pettigree, Steven's-buildings, Pedlar-street, Bethnal-green; and Sarah Aldridge, the prisoner's aunt, gave her a good character.)
GUILTY.—Aged 16. Strongly recommended to mercy. Confined Seven Days.
NEW COURT.—Wednesday, December 16, 1835.
Sixth Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
GUILTY .— Confined One Year.
225. CHARLES DAVIS was indicted for stealing, on the 19th of November, 1 bag, value 5s.; 4 coats, value 4l.; 53 waistcoats, value 10l. 2 pair of trowsers, value 30s.; 7 shirts, value 27s.; 2 pair of boots, value 1l.; 7 pair of stockings, value 7s.; 1 seal, value 10s.; 1 watch-key, value 4s.; 3 rings, value 5s.; 1 portfolio, value 1l.; 6 collars, value 3s., 2 handkerchiefs, value 2s.; 1 razor, value 2s.; 2 nightcaps, value 1s.; 1 pair of shoes, value 2s.; 1 pair of clogs, value 2s. 6d.; 1 razor strop, value 4d.; 4 brushes, value 6d.; 1 boot-jack, value 6d.; and 1 screw-driver, value 4d.; the goods of William Hitchcock; to which he pleaded
GUILTY . Aged 27.— Transported for Seven Years.
The HON. MR. SCARLETT and MR. ELLIS conducted the prosecution.
THOMAS WOODHEARD . I live at Hendon. On Saturday, the 25th of November, between two and three o'clock in the afternoon, I saw both the prisoners near Hendon Church—they came across the fields, and went half way up the lane—Ann Clark returned and went into Mrs. Manners' shop, and left Thomas Clark standing leaning on the post at the corner of the lane.
ELIZABETH MANNERS . On the 21st of November, Ann Clark came into my husband's shop, between two and three o'clock, for a pennyworth of bread, and a halfpenny-worth of apples—she gave me a shilling—I gave her sixpence and four pence halfpenny in change—I put the shilling into my pocket—I had no other there—I soon after saw Warren the officer—I marked the shilling, and gave it him.
CHARLOTTE SANDS . I live with my brother at Hendon—he keeps a grocer's shop. On the 21st of November, at a quarter to three o'clock. Ann Clark came in for a penny worth of bread, and a pennyworth of cheese—she gave me a shilling—I gave her 10d. change—I put the shilling into the till—there were three sixpences there—I am sure there was no other shilling—after that the constable came—I gave the shilling to Mr. Warren almost directly Ann Clark went out—I marked it.
SOPHIA BUSHNELL . I am the wife of James Bushnell, he keeps a shop at Hendon. On the 21st of November, Ann Clark came for a penny loaf, and a pennyworth of cheese, about a quarter after one o'clock, she gave me a shilling—I gave her sixpence and fourpence change, and put the shilling into the till—there was no other there—there were two sixpences—she went
away—about an hour after I saw Warren, the constable, and gave him the same shilling.
JOHN WARREN . On the 21st of November, about three o'clock, I saw Thomas Clark standing opposite the workhouse—first looking one way, then another—soon after I saw Ann Clark come out of Mrs. Sands', and join him—I went into Mrs. Sands', and there got a shilling—I then pursued both the prisoners—they had got down the lane about three hundred yards—I took them to the workhouse, and searched Thomas Clark—In pulling down his stockings I found a piece of leather wrapped up, in which were two bad shillings—In his had I found three slices of bread, and one slice of cheese, and in his coat pocket 3s. worth of copper, and thirteen sixpences, which were good, and one good shilling was found in the hand of Ann Clark—she was searched by a female—here are the three shillings which I got from Sands, Manners, and Bushnell—I took the prisoners to London, and on going from the office, Thomas Clark said, there were four shillings dated sixteen, and one seventeen, and that Mr. Powell was a long time looking at them.
ANN CLARK— GUILTY . Aged 22.
THOMAS CLARK— GUILTY . Aged 22.
Confined One Year.
JANE YOUNG . I am wife of David Young, a chandler, who lives in College-street, Westminster. On the 26th of November, the prisoner came and asked for two three-farthing candles—she tendered a shilling—I said it was bad, and asked where she lived—she said in Mar sham-street, and that she had it of her mother.
DAVID YOUNG . I am the husband of the last witness. I was called to see the shilling—the prisoner said she got it from her mother, who lived in Mar sham-street—I said I was rather doubtful of it, by her coming past so many places to my place; but if she told the truth I would forgive her—I took her to Mar sham-street—she then said she did not live there, but over the water, and that she got it of a gentleman in the house—I delivered the shilling to the policeman, in the station-house.
ELIZABETH PEARSE . My husband keeps a shop in Chelses. On the 3rd of December, about four o'clock in the afternoon, the prisoner came to purchase some writing-paper—I had none—she went out, and was out for twenty minutes, looking in at the window—she came in again, and asked for a book—I said I thought it was two-pence—I looked at it and saw it was a-penny—she said never mind the price—she gave me a shilling—I went to a neighbour's and got change—they said it was a bad one—I took it, and saw a policeman—I gave it him, and he marked it.
Prisoner. I never went out of the shop at all—I did not know it was bad. Witness. She did go out—I asked where she lived, but she would not tell me.
JAMES BRADLEY (police-constable B 134.) The prisoner was given to me, and this shilling—I asked where she lived—she would not tell me, nor yet her name—at the station she said a gentleman gave it to her over the water.
GUILTY . Aged 15.— Confined One Year.
NOT GUILTY .
KENNET KINGSFORD . On the 1st of December I was passing through Little East-Cheap, about five o'clock in the afternoon, and felt some one at my pocket—I put my hand behind me, and fastened it on the wrist of the prisoner—I said, "You rascal, you have stolen my handkerchief"—he said, "I have not got it"—I did not see the handkerchief at that moment—I said, "I shall take you to the station-house"—a solider came up, and then saw the handkerchief.
FRANCIS M'LEAN . I was in the station-house—a person informed me a gentleman had got a lad in custody—I ran out and found the prosecutor with the prisoner—I found nothing on him—this is the handkerchief that was given to me.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
GUILTY . Aged 20.— Transported for Seven Years.
JOHN SMITH . I am shopman to Messrs. Owen and William O'Hara, of Compton-street, cheese mongers. On the 1st of December I was at the door, skinning a rabbit—a girl told me a man stolen a cheese—I went and took the prisoner with the cheese—I took him into the shop, and took it from him—he did not appear tipsy when I first took him, but afterwards he did—he said he had bought it—It had been inside the shop—I was serving a customer who was inside the shop.
Prisoner, I was very tipsy, and did not know what I was doing.
GUILTY . Aged 40.— Confined Three Months.
231. ELIZABETH PARKER was indicted for stealing, on the 20th of November, 3 beds, value 2l.; 1 holster, value 1s.; 2 pillows, value 1s.; 2 sheets, value 4s.; 2 blankets, value 5s.; 1 cover lid, value 3s.; 1 frying-pan pan, value 1s.; 2 flat irons, value 2s.; 1 saucepan, value 1s.; 1 fender value 1s.; 1 pair of bellows, value 6d.; 2 tables, value 5s.; and 2 chairs, value 2s.; the goods of Elizabeth Caperoe.
ELIZABETH CAPEROE . I live in Kingsland-road. The prisoner came to lodge with me—part of this furniture was in the room which she occupied—when she was gone I missed it all—there was nothing left but one bedstead—there was only one bed in her room; but she broke into a store-room, and took two beds from there—I have not seen any of the things since—nobody went up into the room but her—she kept the key herself, and always locked it.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Do you know whether she was given to drink? A. I cannot say—she was very distant, and kept hersels to herself—she had been three months with me—you must go through her room to go to the store-room—no one else could go there, as she kept her door locked—she was found taking a table out; and we laid a plan to take her when she came back.
Q. Did you see anything odd in her manner? A. No, nothing—I saw her, sometimes, once a day—her brother-in-law paid the rent—the other room had a strong padlock on, and it was burned with a burning hot poker to open it—she always locked her door when she went out—when I sent up it was always locked.
GUILTY . Aged 40.— Confined Six Months.
GEORGE LESTER . I am servant to Joseph Chantler, of Princes-street, Portman-market, a corn-chandler. On Tuesday evening, the 1st of Deember, about seven o'clock, I was returning to my master's house, and saw Muriel standing at the door—she told me something and I ran after a person whom I saw running down the street—I am not certain the prisoners the person—I did not see his face—a woman came and brought this till—there was 10s. 6d. in the till—It is my master's house, and about ten minutes after I saw the boy running, and from the same direction—the woman is not here.
MARY ANN MURRELL . I live at No. 10, in the street) opposite Mr. Chanters's shop. I saw the prisoner and another boy loitering about—I afterwards saw the least boy(who is the other boy) come out with some peas in his cap—as I was walking up and down, they both kept throwing them at me—I just turned to see what o'clock it was, and then I saw the prisoner come running from the counter with the till in his hand—I had known him before, when we kept a shop in Devonshire-street.
Prisoner. It is a spite she has against me—she called me "sore eyes" one day, and I threatened I would slap her head.
EDWARD COLLINS . I live in Princes-street—I was looking out of the first floor room window that evening, and saw the prisoner and another boy—I saw the prisoner crawl on his hands and knees round the sacks of floor—he went up to the counter, and then came back with the till, crawling on his hands and knees—he then rose up, and ran out of the shop.
Prisoner. He could not see me from where he lives. Witness. Yes; I am quite sure I saw him—he was in the shop ten minutes—my sister would not let me come out before—he kept behind the sacks of flour for five minutes.
(James Olley gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY .† Aged 15.— Transported for Seven Years.
GUILTY . Aged 21.— Transported for Seven Years.
MR. BODKIN conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN THOMSON . I am a carpenter, and am occasionally employed in the East India Docks' warehouse—In December last I was working there—the prisoner borrowed a chisel of me one day—I cannot say when—he returned it to me in less than an hour, I should think.
JOHN THOROGOOD . I am a labourer in the East India Docks. On the 3rd of December, I was at work at one of the floors of the warehouse, which has a communication with the floors where the indigo is kept—I had occasion to go to a loop-hole for a rope, and went right past the place where the indigo is kept, and saw the prisoner coming from the direction of the indigo chests—he went to his desk in the same warehouse, but not on the same floor—I saw him making up a paper parcel at his desk—I looked at the chests—the lid of one was a little off—It was entirely loose, but had been slipped aside—It was not sufficiently far off then for a person to put his hand into it—I replaced it, and made a communication to Mr. Thomson, who sent for Fogg the officer—I then saw the prisoner's coat produced—I did not see the pockets examined.
WILLIAM PARKER . I am assistant foreman in the East India Docks. The prisoner was the same as myself. On the 3rd of December I saw him come from towards the indigo chests—he had a piece of indigo in his night hand pocket—I made a communication to Mr. Todd in the after part of the day—the prisoner was in the habit of making up samples of indigo.
JURY. Q. Are not the men examined going in and out? A. Yes; but not the foremen.
THOMAS TODD . I am warehouse-keeper at the East India Docks. The prisoner was acting as assistant foreman—he is one of those who are not searched—In No. 6 floor there are several chests of indigo—on the 28th of October last, they were re-weighed by order of the broker, having been sold—they were afterwards nailed down, in the early part of November—there was no occasion after that to take samples from them—the prisoner took samples frequently, when I gave him an order—I went hourly into the warehouse, and on the 3rd of December, I tried one of these chests—I found the lid was loose—I tried four others, and found them all open—I had seen them nailed down by George Blair, early in November—I had given no orders for them to be opened—I ordered them to be nailed down instantly—on the Saturday I had them weighed, and missed 87lbs. of indigo, worth 5s. a pound—I asked the prisoner if he knew how they came open, and observed that there had been a great plunderer—he said he know nothing about it—I said he ought to know—nothing further passed that day—persons are not allowed to take from one chest to make up another—no one has any business to put indigo into his pockets—In consequence of what took place, I desired the prisoner's coat to be brought first on As—Thursday, and again on Monday, into the presence of Captain Drew and the head warehouse-man—there was some small indigo in both pockets, and a memorandum-book, covered with indigo—on the Monday morning I was going to the Docks, and was accosted by the prisoner—I said to him, "Your conduct this morning will be strictly investigated, I have several
witnesses to prove that you stole the indigo"—he said, "I am not the only one"—he did not come to work that morning, and was apprehended.
Prisoner. Did I say I was not the only one? Witness. Yes, you did, and walked away.
Prisoner. You said, "Don't you come on the dock". Witness. No; his mother came to the dock, and I said, "You had better not come in".
JURY. Q. Did you have his coat examined on Saturday? A. Yes; it was brought down by Bricker, who he put his hard in the pocket, and pulled out some indigo, and this memorandum-book—his hands might become soiled by handling indigo.
COURT. Q. Could this small quantity of indigo get into his pockets by putting his hands in alone? A. No.
WILLIAM BRICKER . On the Saturday I took the prisoner's coat, and felt in the pockets, I found nothing but dust of indigo, and a book—there was too much to rub off his hands—nearly as much as I could hold in my hands.
Prisoner's Defence. With regard to this piece of indigo which I put into my pocket, it was on the desk; as to the dust in that coat pocket, it has been there two or three months—I have been in the habit, when I have had chests brought, to put bits in my pocket, and put it in a paper—I have my way of working, and each man has his own way.
COURT to TODD. Q. Do the persons ever put indigo in their pockets? A. No; there were trays to put it on—he worn this coat in his work—he went home ill on Saturday morning, and then this coat was left there—I never knew him to take a sample in his pocket—I looked into his desk on Monday, in Captain Drew's presence, and Tweedle, there was no indigo there, but an ink-bottle had been started all over the bottom of the desk—he had come to me for the ink.
Prisoner. Last year there were thirty-three chests, and 500 and pounds were lost, and now, this year, about 87lbs. out of these chests—they were on the floor, open, two or three weeks—there are twenty or thirty men employed, labourers and seamen, and custom-house-officers—the chests they are all open.
JURY. Q. You stated it was some time, first? A. Yes; three or four days, waiting for exchange of samples.
NOT GUILTY .
THOMAS WILLIAMS . I live in Church-street, Bethnal-green. The prisoner was in my employ for two or three months—on the 2nd of December, I stopped him going out, and sent for an officer, who found half a cake of soap cut in two, and put down by his sides, and the brushes.
Prisoner. I am guilty.
(The prosecutor, and Mary Ann Jones, gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY . Aged 16.— Confined One Month.
First Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
236. CAROLINE HIBBERT was indicted for stealing, on the 28th of November, 2 blankets, value 2s. 6d.; 2 sheets, value 2s.; 1 bolster, value 4s.; 1 bolster-case, value 4d.; and 6 lbs. of feathers, value 3s., the goods of Margaret Storey.
MARGARET STOREY . I live in Tarling-street, St. George's. The prisoner came to take a furnished lodging of me—I went up afterwards, on the 28th of November, and missed a pair of sheets, a pair of blankets, a bolster and case—these are them—the prisoner lived with me eight or nine weeks—she got her living by frock-body making.
Prisoner. I was willing to replace the things.
GUILTY . Aged 30.— Transported for Seven Years.
ELLEN PATEMAN . I am the wife of William Pateman, he lives in Gaolden-lane, and is a cheese-monger. I was in the parlour about two o'clock in the afternoon of the 14th of December, and saw the prisoner come to the window, and take a piece of bacon from the board outside—she put it under her shawl—I told my husband, he went out and brought her back with it.
WILLIAMS PATKMAN . I went out and saw the prisoner walking fast, six house off—I asked her if she had got a piece of bacon—she held up her apron and said, "No, I have not, see"—I moved her shawl, and it was under arm.
Prisoner's Defence. I picked up this bit of meat, and kept still walking on—the gentleman came and asked if I had not got a bit of meat—I said, "Yes—If it is your's you may have it."
GUILTY. Recommended to mercy.— Confined One Week.
MARY BRYANT . I am the wife of Charles Bryant, a furrier. I went to Mrs. Harris, in Norfolk-street, Islington, on the 7th of March—the prisoner was there—about ten o'clock, I meant to go away, and missed my shawl and veil—this is the shawl—when it was bought it was worth 19s.—I saw the prisoner again the same evening at Mrs. Harris's—I did not see her after it was found, till she was in custody at Worship-street—she said she had lost them, and if I would not prosecute her they should be returned.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. At that time you were not married? A. No; my name was Collins—I was in the habit of visiting Mrs. Harris, and always saw the prisoner there—she was not married at that time—I lived with my father and mother at Ball's Pond before I was married—I saw the prisoner two or three days afterward at Mrs. Harris's—I had been in the habit of lending her things on two or three occasions—I never saw her from the time I was married, till she was in custody—she said that she came into the room, where she supposed I was, to ask me to lead the shawl, and not finding me, she took it, intending to return it—I believe she would have returned it if she had known where I lived—she was the last person I should suspect.
COURT. Q. Do you think she took these things meaning to return them? A. I cannot say what her motive was—If she had sent home the shawl and veil, I should have thought nothing of it.
NOT GUILTY .
GUILTY . Aged 16.—Recommended to mercy.— Confined One Month, and Whipped.
HENRY SLOMAN . I reside on Kennington Green, Surrey. About two o'clock in the afternoon of the 14th of December, I was walking in Holborn, near Castle-street, and felt some one tugging at my pocket—I turned and pursued the prisoner, who ran away—there was a boy with him—I cried "Stop thief"—we overtook the prisoner, and saw him throw away my handkerchief—this is it.
Prisoner's Defence. I saw the handkerchief lying in the kennel, and picked it up.
GUILTY . Aged 18.— Confined Six Months.
JOHN NEWMAN . I am apprentice to Messes. William Hop wood and Son, linen drapers, Duke-street, Marlboro. On the 10th of December, I saw the prisoner take a piece of printed cotton from inside the door, and put it under her cloak, and go away—I went after her, and took her, and she dropped it—a young man took it up, and I brought her back—this is the print—I saw her take it, and drop it.
GUILTY. Aged 12.—Recommended to mercy.— Confined One Week.
GEORGE WILLIAM THOMAS . I am a lighter man, living in St. Ann's, Limehouse. The prisoner was my servant—on Thursday, the 3rd of December, I directed him to take the barge A dairy to a place, and gave him at six o'clock in the morning, one crown, six half-crowns, three shillings, and four-pence, to pay the tonnage, as it was going up the Regent's Canal—he ought to have gone directly—I went to the Canal at eleven o'clock—the barge was there, but the prisoner was gone—I saw him again five days afterwards, and gave him in charge—he had not a farthing about him.
Prisoner. I leave it to the merely of the Court—It is my first offence.
GUILTY . Aged 26.—Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor, who promised to employ him again— Confined One Week.
243. RACHEL WILCOCKS was indicted for stealing, on the 31st of March, 2 gowns, value 3l. 15s.; 1 cloak, value 2l.; 1 shawl, value 16s.; and 1 pair of stays, value 5s.: the goods of Sarah Catherick; and 2 watches, value 11l.; the goods of William catherick, her master.
WILLIAM CATHERICK . I lodge in Upper Marylebone-street; the prisoner was my servant, and attended my wife in her illness. I went home, and found the key of my apartment under a mat at my door—I opened the door and missed the property—the watches were mine—a shawl, bonnet, and two gowns were missing they belonged to my sister, Sarah Catherick—they were all safe when I went out, to the best of my belief—the prisoner was taken a short time afterwards—I asked her if she was not ashamed of herself for giving away and robbing my apartment—she said she was ashamed to look me in the face—I asked her what she had done with the watches—she was going to tell, and then said she would not tell till before the Magistrate—she then did tell—the two watches are found, (these are them;) but no other property.
HENRY HICKLETON . I am a bricklayer. I met the prisoner in West Halt on-street, and challenged her with the robbery—she said she was very sorry—I told her I had promised Mr. Cathartic, if I saw her, to take her to him—she was very dirty, and would rather go the next day; but I took her.
Prisoner's Defence. I left his house through the ill-treatment I received from Miss Catherick—she used me very ill that morning, and accused me of having concerns with her brother more than she was aware of—she said he was very partial to me, more than he ought to be.
GUILTY . Aged 49.— Confined One Year.
WILLIAM DOVE . I am in the employ of Mr. John Kautzman Davis, of Brompton Park, Teddington: the prisoner was his carter. On the Friday week in the evening the inspector came to me and said something—I went an looked round, and missed some hurdles—I went afterwards to Brenford, and saw the hurdles there—these are them—the prisoner was not authorised to take them.
HUGH SANDILANDS (police-constable T 80.) On Thursday morning, the 3rd of December, I was at Brenford, and saw the prisoner draw a cart with two horses up to a marine-store shop door—he put down some iron hurdles, and then a truss of straw—I followed him to another place, where he left some more straw—I mentioned the circumstance to the inspector—he gave information to the witness—these are the hurdles—they were left at Brentford.
PHILLIS HUGHES . I keep an oil and colour and marine-store shop. The prisoner brought these hurldes to em—I asked him if they were his own—he said, "Yes"—I said I must book him—I had seen him only once before—I booked his name and where he lived—I cannot recollect what it was—I gave 3s. for them—my son-in-law weighes them—I by them by the hundred.
priosner's Defence. I know nothing about it.
GUILTY . Aged 22.— Confined One Year.
WILLIAM DOVE . I am in the service of Mr. John Kautzman Davis He had some trussed of straw, and three more iron hurdle—I missed them—I went ont in the morning, and found straw scattered about; I then went to Hunghes's, and found some straw—It was my master's, I believe—It was very short straw—I saw seven hurdles in all.
HUGH SANDILANDS (police-constable T 80.) On the 3rd of December I saw the cart atrive with the straw and there or four iron bundles—the prisoner drove it—he left one truss at Hughes's and two more at her son's who keeps another oil and colour and marine-store shop—I gave notice of it immediately.
PHILLIS HUGHES . It was all at the same time—after I bought the hurdles, he said, "I have got some straw; I wish I could sell it: will you buy it?"—I said, "I don't want any: what do you ask?" He said, "Sixpence a bundle"—I said, "You may leave it if you life.
GUILTY . Aged 22.— Confined One Year.
246. FREDERICK FRANKLIN was indicted for stealing, on the 3rd of December, 1 watch-chain, value 1l. 2s.; and 1 seal and key, value 1l. 8s.; the goods of John Jones and another, his masters; and SOPHIA FRANKLIN for feloniusly receiving the same, well knowing them to have been stolen, against the Statute.
JOHN JONES . I live in Red Lion-street, Clerkwell, and am a working goldsmith, in partnership with another; Frederick was in my service. He left my house about eight o'clock at might on the 3rd of December—he came back the next morning—I did not miss these things till the policeman brought them to me—my stock is very large—these are the articles—they are mine—the prisoner bad nevers to the counting-house, where they were kept.
JOSEPH BURGKES . I keep a pawnbroker's shop in Chichester-place, St. Pancras. As I was coming into my shop one day about one o'clock—thischain, seal, and key were put into my hands by my shopman—the female prisoner was there—she came to enquire the value of them, and requested the loan of twelve shillings on there—I enquired to whom they belonged—she said to herself—perceving them to be a valuable article I said, "You do not mean to say that they belonged to you"—she said, "Yes, I do "—I said, "I do not believe any thing of the kind"—she said, "While I am pledging them, they are my own"—I said, "You probable bring them from a respectable person, I must have the name of that person"—after a variety of excuses, and different tales, she said she had picked them up on the Saturday night previous, opposite my door—I gave her into custody.
Frederick Franklin's Defence. I found it in the passage.
Sophia Franklin's Defence. It is my first offence—I must leave it to the mercy of the Jury—I said I found it against his door.
(Sarah Webb, No. 11, Britannia-street, John hammett, and Charles Thousam Beaumont, John Pawley, Crown-street, John Hawkes, and Charles Tudoor, gave the prisoners a good character.)
F. FRANKLIN— GUILTY . Aged 14.— Confined One Year
S. FRANKLIN— GUILTY. Aged 45— Confined One Year.
Recommended to mercy by the Jury.
247. NATHANIEL JAMES was indicted for stealing, on the 23rd of November, at St. George's, Middlesex, in the dwelling-house of Lazarus Samuel, 1 watch, value 35s.; 1 chain, value 3d.; 1 watch key, value 1s.; 5 sovereigns; 2 half-crowns; 5 shillings; and 3 pence in copper; his property.
LAZARUS SAMUEL . I employed the prisoner as journeyman for about five months—he slept in my shop, adjoining my bed-room—on Monday morning the 23rd of November, about eight o'clock, I missed my watch chain, and key, five sovereigns, 10s. or 11s. in silver, and 3s. or 4d. in half-pence—I had placed the watch against a looking-glass on a table in my bed room when I went to bed—any body could have come in without my knowing it—when I awoke in the morning it was gone—It was worth 35s.—the sovereigns were in my trowser's pocket, which laid on a chair at the foot of the bed—I slept with my wife, and one child that night—I went to bed about half-past ten o'clock—I was in bed when I found it out about eight o'clock—my wife was in bed with me—I think I had fallen asleep before my wife came—the prisoner was in the room below by the side of the fire when I went up stairs—In the morning he was gone, and the property—I have a letter he sent me about twelve days after—I cannot tell the hand writing; in consequence of that I went into the street, and met the prisoner, and asked him what he did with the watch—he said he had pawned it—I asked what he had done with the money—he said he had lost in in gambling.
Prisoner. I did not say so. Witness. He told me so in the office, and before the Magistrate—on the second examination, he said he had nothing to say, but he said it at first.
Prisoner's Defence. On the 15th of November, I worked for him—he would not allow me two hours to go out—he gave me notice to leave on the week following—I came to work as usual, and left on Friday—I did not return till the Sunday—I got up at half=-past six o'clock, and found both the doors open—I put my things on, and left my box there, intending to fetch it when I got a a situation—two men stopped me in St. John-street, and asked me to pledge the watch for them—they gave me 5s.—I afterwards heard that the prosecutor had been robbed, and I sent that night to him.
DANIEL RICHARD HARKER . I am a parish clerk. I know the parish of St. George's Middlesex—It is sometimes called St. George's in the East, but is always published as St. George's, Middlesex, in the Bills of Mortality.
GUILTY. Aged 24.—Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor. Transported for Life.
Fifth jury, before Mr. Sergeant Arabin.
ELIZABETH MUMFORD . I live in Middlesex-street, Somers-town. On the evening of the 28th of November, I lost a sheet, which hung in my yard, at the back of my house, to dry—I believe some parties were apprehended for stealing it, and the bill was thrown out—the sheet was afterwards found at the pawnbroker's.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. Do not you know the prisoner very well? A. Yes—she frequented our shop—I never asked her name, as she always pawned in the name of Martin, No. 7, Charlotte-street—that is the usual address—I cannot say whether my brother shopman said he took in the things—I did not always take down the address "Britannia-place," that I know of.
THOMAS NICKLIN . I am a police-constable. I went with the prosecutor to Mr. Burgess, and found the sheet—I asked who pledged it—he told me, and I went to the prisoner—she said she was not the person—the pawnbroker said she was—the counter-duplicate was not found upon her.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe you searched the place? A. Yes—I found twenty-eight duplicates, which I have here—she said she had been to the shop, and pawned some goods, but did not pawn this.
NOT GUILTY .
GUILTY . Aged 30.—Recommended to mercy..— Confined Three Months.
250. HANNAH DALE was indicted for stealing, on the 20th of November, 1 tea-pot, value 1s.; 1 pillow, value 4s.; 1 bolster, value 30s.; 2 wine-glasses, value 1s.; 3 flat-irons, value 2s.; 1 looking-glass and frame, value 3s.; 2 blankets, value 25s.; 1 counterpane, value 12s.; 1 bed, value 3l.; and 1 set of fire-irons, value 2s.; the goods of Jonathan Wood.
JONATHAN WOOD . I live in Great Citified-street. On the 7th of November, the prisoner took my lodgings—she said she was married, but was not living with her husband—I let her the second floor back-room, at 5s. a week—I let all the furniture stated with it—she continued there three weeks—she paid the first week, and 2s. towards the next—she said she got her living by upholstery-work, in the same street—we went into the room while she was there—I told her I had suspicion she had been
taking things away—she said she had not—upon that we went into the room, and the things were gone—the duplicates were found on her.
WILLIAM GEORGE STEWARD . I am shopman to Mr. William Howe, a pawnbroker, in High-street, Bloomsburry. I have two blankets, a pillow, a bolster, a counterpane, a tea-pot, fire-irons, and a looking-glass—I took in the bolster of the prisoner, in the name od Ann Scott—the others are pawned in the same name.
Prisoner's Defence. I was very much distressed through my husband's leaving me, and going to live with a common prostitute—I was obliged to do what I did—my intention was not to leave the house—when I came home, he called me into his own room, and said he knew there were things gone—I said I had not left the lodgings; but when I did, I should leave every things as I found it—when I was at work, my husband used to annoy me—I could not get in which I got works.
GUILTY. Aged 35.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. Confined Three Months.
THOMAS GODBY . I am a clothes-salesman, and live at No. 36 and 37, Brook-street. I have one partner—the prisoner was my shop man for eight years, and occasionally employed in collecting and going out for orders—It was his duty to go out and receive monies, and account for them the same day—he entered it in a book.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. He gave you this receipt, which at any time would be proof that he had received the money?—A. Yes; I think it was about twelve o'clock.
THOMAS GODBY , re-examined. He did not account for the receipt of this 6l. 9s.—I did speak to him it, as I did not know he went after it—he went into the City to get orders, and he absented himself on the 22nd of September—we paid him weekly, on Saturdays—he went away on Tuesday.
Cross-examined. Q. There were sometimes mistakes in your house? A. Never; there was never a-penny mistake all the time he was there—I was at the Rotunda two or three times, during Carlile's lectures, and twice, I believe, at the Rev. Richard Taylor's—I have sent the prisoner for money, which it turned out had been paid to me; but it was not in his hand-writing—when he handed up the book to me, I found his entering quite correct—It was my business to enter a debt as received from Mr. Hop wood—I sent for it, and Mr. Hop wood said he would call the next morning, as he went to the City—I forget it was paid—such a thing could not happen to the prisoner—the book was always to he had, if he asked for it—I know Messes, Castles and Co., wholesale haberdasher—I never sent to them for money I had received before—It never did
take place—something of this occured with the prisoner before, and he paid me 10s. a-week—I don't know that he went to the Rotunda.
Prisoner's Defence. I would wish to observe, that I have always attended these lectures at the Rotunda, in consequence of a book, called "The Devil's Pulpit," which Mr. Godby put into my hands; it carried away my opinion, and I went to her Mr. Gale Jones, and others there—I saw my employer there repeatedly—I should say, my employer has the whole works of the Rev. Robert Taylor, and "The Age of Reason," and a great many of Carlisle's works; and I have heard him declare that he believed in the Bible, but believes it to d—d lies.—I stand here to be convicted or acquitted on his oath, which I consider is not binding on his conscience; because he does not believe in Holy Writ—as regards the account in question—I feel convicted that I paid it to him or Mrs. Godby—he sent me to apply for an account at castles and Co., and they showed me the receipt for it, in his own hand-writing.
NOT GUILTY .
THOMAS GODBY . I paid the prisoner 1l. 7s. weekly—he left me without notice, on Tuesday, the 22nd of September—he has not accounted for either of these sums—there is no entry of them—we did not discover that he had received these sums before he left, and the accounts went in again—my wife does receive money in my absence, but the prisoner always left a memorandum with the money.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. We understand you had two houses? A. Yes; with different kinds of business—the book is sometimes in the other shop, but not often—he could walk in and take it.
COURT. Q. Was he the servant to collect debts for both shops? A. No; only for the business he was in.
MR. DOANE. Q. He was attached to your department? A. Exactly so—he had nothing to do with the others—we have no debts there—It is all ready money—my partner likes to have the books in the order shop sometimes, to look them over—I swear I have not received this money—Mrs. God by is not here.
Prisoner's Defence. I have either paid it to Mr. or Mrs. Godby—the book was frequently in the other house—I had not always free access to it—I did not like to go in sometimes, and sometimes when I got to the book, I might have a customer come in.
NOT GUILTY .
SALUEL PARKINS (police-constable K 117.) On the 10th of December I was in High-street, Shadwell, and saw the two prisoners in company with two other boys—I watched them, and saw them go past Mr. Gardiner's door, and steal a cap—this about three hundred yards from Mr. Larkins'—I took them into custody, and found a cap on M'Carthy head, which was new, and on going along, Kenny pulled off his hat, and a little boy said that cap dropped from it—I took this and the one that was on M'Carthy head, and the prosecutor owned them.
M'CARTHY— GUILTY . Aged 11.
KENNY— NOT GUILTY .
SAMUEL PARKINS . I watched these boys with two others, near the shop of Mr. Gar diner—Kenny snatched this cap from inside the door—I cut across the road, and took him-M' Carthy was in company with him—It was at half-past eight o'clock—he put it under his jacket—I took it out, and took him to Mr. Gardiner.
MRS. GARDINER. This is my husbands's cap—his name is James Gardiner—I had not seen the boys till the officer brought them in—we have lost a great many caps and hats too, by little boys.
M' CARTHY— GUILTY . Aged 11.
KENNY— GUILTY . Aged 14.
Transported for Seven Years.
JOHN GREEN . I am foreman to Ralph Wilcoxon—he is a shoemaker, and lives in King william-street. About twelve o'clock yesterday, I saw a boy stoop down, and take a pair of boots from his door, and give them to the prisoner—she put take into her apron—I took her with them on her person—the boy ran quickly away—I could not take them both—the prisoner was close to him when he took them.
GUILTY . Aged 17.— Confined Six Weeks.
WILLIAM BUSH . I am a meat salesman, and live in tottenham-court-road. The prisoner was foreman in my shop, between two and three months, he had to receive money from different customers in the shop, and enter in the book what meat was sold, or if paid for, he was to put the money in the till—I had mistrusted him before I discharged him which was about June last—I had another of my servants up the other day, who was discharged at Hatton Garden—In looking over Mr. Reader's receipts, I found some of Henry Broom's as well.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. was not a gentleman about taking your business, if he liked it? A. Yes; several, and one named Sadler, while the prisoner was there—he was there inspecting and overseeing my business, to see whether it was worth his while to purchase it—he
can read and write—he has absconded—I had a person up the other day, named davey—I think he has absconded.
MR. BUSH re-examined. They are the hand-writing of the prisoner, to the best of my knowledge.
NOT GUILTY .
MARY ANN FREEBOURNE . I am wife of Charles Freebourne. I deal with Mr. Bush for meat—I do not know the prisoner at all—I cannot say whether he wrote these receipts or not—I never saw him—these receipts came off my file.
WILLIAM BUSH re-examined. I have seen him write in the books—these receipts are his writing to the best of my belief—I will swear these amounts are not entered in my books—the prisoner did not leave my service—this is his hand-writing, signed "Henry Broom."
NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT. Thursday, December the 17th.
Second Jury, before Mr. Sergeant Arabin
258. JOHN TEES was indicted for stealing, on the 5th of December, 1 1/2lb. of flour, value 3d.; 3/4lb. currants, value 6d.; 3/4lb. sugar, value 6d.; and 1/4lb. of lemon-peel, value 2d.; the goods of Richard Henry Crick, his master, to which he pleaded
GUILTY . Aged 31.— Confined Fourteen Days.
THOMAS JOHNSON . I am a cabinet-maker and furniture-broker, and live in Old-street. The prisoner lived in servant with me between four and five weeks—I put three sovereigns into a drawer on my first floor—there was a £5 note there as well—I put them in separate places in the drawer. between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening—I locked the drawer, and tried it afterwards and gave the key to my wife—the prisoner absconded, and I missed the money—I met her last Monday morning, in Petticoat-lane—I said, "Mary, what a bad girl you must be to rob us in the manner"—she said, "I do not know you"—several women came round, and said, "What are you going to do with that girl?"—I said she had robbed me, that I was not quite certain of her person myself, but if she would come home to her mistress, to see if she knew her, I should
be satisfied—she said she never had a mistress—the people got outrageous and would have taken her from me, but a policeman came by, and I gave her in charge.
----JOHNSON. I am the prosecutor's wife. The prisoner were up stairs to lay the cloth for supper—I missed the money out of the drawer between eight ans nine o'clock and the prisoner was then gone—there had been nobody in the house but her—the drawer was locked, and it was found locked—I had the key in my pocket—It must have been opened by another key—I am certain the prisoner is the girl who loved with us.
WILLIAM ROWLAND . I am a policeman. I took her into custody—she denied all knowledge of the prosecutor at first, and said she never lived with him—when I got her near the station-house, she begged of me to let her go, and to say she had made her escape—she said "I am not she only one concerned in it-two old women came to the house, and gave me a key to open the drawer with—I do not know where the women reside."
GUILTY. Aged 14. Recommended to mercy Transported for Seven Years.
SAMUEL PERKINS . I saw the prisoner standing partly in the doorway of Mrs. Haybow's shop in High-street, Shadwell, and in a moment he gave a tug, and locked round, which excited my suspicions—I was not certain whether he had then taken any thing, but he had some thing under a handkerchief—he went from the shop door to the private door, where it dark, and the private door being open, he went a little way into the passage—he came out with something wrapped in his handkercheif—I stopped him, and charged him with they—he begged me to look over it—I brought him back, and found the shoes in the handkercheif.
Prisoner's Defence. About six o'clock in the evening, I was going through Shad well—I saw something lying in a passage—I kicked it—I found the shoes, and picked them up—this gentleman came up, and asked what I had got—I said a pair of shoes, which I found in the passage.
GUILTY . Aged 27.— Transported for seven Years.
CHARLES TOOMBS . I am in the service of Andrew Pollard, an oilman, at the corner of Newport, and Castle-street. On the 14th of December, as I entered the shop, I found the prisoner there— I was told she had some soap in her apron, but she did not hear that— I then told her she had taken some soap— she said, she had not—I took her apron from her, and the soap was in it— she then begged to be forgiven— I knew her as a customer for some time before—there are 9lbs. of the soap—It was master's.
Prisoner's Defence. I went into the shop, on Monday night, to buy half-a-pound of soap—a woman came up to me and asked me to hold that in my apron, and while I paid him for what I had, bought I turned round, and she was gone—I said a woman had given it me to hold.
NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Justice Littledale.
262. JANE JORDAN was indicted , for that she, on the 27th of November in and upon William Pettitt, did make an assault, and unlawfully, maliciously, and feloniously did stab, cut, and wound him, in and upon his right thigh, with intent to main and disable him, against the Statute—2nd COUNT, stating her intent to be, to do him some grievous bodily harm.
WILLIAM PETTITT . I am a boot and shoemaker, and live in great Windmill-Street, Haymarket. The prisoner has cohabited with me between four and five years. On Friday, the 27th of November, about five o'clock in the afternoon, I sent her to Bowling-street, Westminster, with a pair of shoes—she was absent about two hours and a half, or nearly three hours—when she came back she appeared rather the worse for liquor—William Delabertouche lives in the next room to me—he had a wife and daughter—when the prisoner came home she desired the bed to be let down—she then make use of very abusive language to Delabertouche and myself, while I was at work—after she had gone on a long time, I began to remonstrate with her for her conduct, and she got up off the bad, and gave me a severe blow with the poker on my left-arm—I arose up to take the poker from her; but before I could get to her Delabertoucher took me into his room, out of her way—I was in his room about half an hour to the best of my recollection—I heard the prisoner say to Delabertouche's daughter that she wished to sell some things—some plates and dishes and things, or something of that of kind—I can't tell exactly what—they were my property—I went into the room where the prisoner was—she put her fist in my face, and tried to aggravate me to strike her—she used a good deal of aggravating language—I did not strike her—I shoved her away with my bands, and went to my bench to work—as soon as I got to the bench, she followed me—she took a knife off my bench, where I was at work, and before I was aware of it she plunged it right into my thigh—It was a knife used in my business—Mr. Delabertouche was in the room. and wrested the knife from her, and threw it on the floor—the prisoner then took another knife up and attempted to stab Delabertouche—he asked here if she knew what she had done, that she had stabbed me—the said the did not care, she would cut my throat before the morning—I was then upon the ground—I had fallen off the chair, the blood flowed so from the wound when she plunged the knife into my thigh—I don't remember any thing further, for I fainted away, through the loss of blood—I had endevoured to raise myself up, but could not—my thigh bled violently and I kept my bed for three weeks and better—It happened on the 27th of November—I can't rightly say how long I kept my bed—I don't remember the day I went before the Magistrate—I was up a little for three days before that, but not the whole of the day—the doctor has left me about a week.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. How came you to say you had been three weeks in bed; were you not up and about your business a day us two after this transaction? A. Yes; but not the whole day—I was not out of the room—I was doing a little work at my bench—Delabertouche has a daughter—I cannot say how old she is—she is not a woman—I cannot say whether she is twenty—I do not know how long I
have known her, or how long Deliberation has lived in the house—I have lived there about five months, and he came there about two months after me—the prisoner lived with me, but is not my wife—she had not been taken away from me by her friends—she separated herself from me to give me into custody if I came after her—her friends did not theaters well as me after her—I have not proposed to marry Delabetouche's daughter—I never said I intended to marry her when this was over—nothing of the kind—I have never been familiar with her—I promised to marry the prisoner before she returned to me—I dare say that is two years ago—I said I would if she would act as a woman ought, and not on every few words we had, make use of an unlawful weapon, and put my life in danger—I put up the banns to marry her, soon after she returned but her behaviour did not permit my marrying her.
Q. Did you not let drop before the Magistrate, that it was after the tustle with the prisoner that you got the wound; using that very word, tustle? A. No; I might say "scuffle." because there was a scuffle when she came to me at the bench—she was not beaten by me—I never attempted to strike her—I am a hard-working man—what I have committed in my youth, I have suffered the law of my country for—I do not see that that woman is to upbraid me for what I have done in my youth, if I have been convicted—I have beaten her, but not so often as she deserved it—If a woman took a poker to you, in her passion, you might be led to do what you ought not—I did not go to work within two days of this transaction nor within a week, for I could not go to the examination, by the Doctor's orders, the first or second time—I walked to the Magistrate's.
Q. You told my Lord you had been in bed for three weeks? A. Well; I was flurried when I came into the place—I cannot say how long it was before I went to the Magistrate—she was committed on the 9th of this month—that was after I had walked to the office—I cannot any when I went—I do not think it was so soon as ten days after the occurrence—Deliberation took me away, that I should not injure her—that she should not injure me—the heat of passion might make me ill me her—I had not beaten her that night—I do not remember beating her for a month before—I will not swear that I had not beaten her within two days—I had not beaten her on that very occasion—she came home in liquor, and had drawn 1s. 6d., which she ought to have given me—I did not see a farthing of the shilling—I cannot say whether Mrs. Deliberation had the sixpence—I told the Magistrate that I heard her speak about selling plates and dishes, and it was read over to me—I told the Magistrate that I heard her say she would sell something out of the room to Delabertouche's daughter—I went back into the room to see what is was—not to have another scuffle.
Q. Were you ever transported? A. Yes; that is near upon six years ago—I have been home six years—that was not the first time I was in trouble—I was very young, and cannot say when it was—I may have been in custody four or five times—I will swear I have not been in custody eight times, not ten—I may have been eight, but I cannot exactly remember—I have not been in any trouble since I was transported—since I have returned from abroad I have been in trouble once—I was not is custody last June—I will swear that—It must have been three years ago, or or more—I know a person named Spencer—he never charged me with having robbed him—I was not charged with going into his room, and taking his apron—I know Mr. Depear, of green-court—I never sold him
any thing in my life—I know Chubb in Crown-street—I did not go with any gown to Hawes, a pawnbroker's in Holborn, to pawn for 2s. 6d.—I have been there, but not within three or four months—I have pawned things of my own—I might have pawned a gown of the prisoner's there—I am quite sure I did not pawn Mrs. Chubb's gown—I have pawned the prisoner's clothes, and she mine, when short of work—I know a man named slate—I was charged at Marlborough-street with having his watch—I do not know how long that is ago—I have been before the Magistrate, and was honourably acquitted, and shall not say any more that is since my return from transportation it must be more than twelve months ago, I think—I cannot say how long—I will not swear it was not within six months—I have not been before any other Magistrate, since I have returned—I cannot swear about it—I will swear I have not been before different magistrate five or six times, within eighteen months, charged with different offences—I positively swear I have not been a Mag istrate more than four times within twelve months—I have not been at all within sixteen months, further than this case—the only time I was at Marlborough-street was about the watch—that is not within twelve months—the prisoner has not threatened to take me before a Magistrate, for beating her, within twelve months, but I will not swear about it.
WILLIAM DELABERTOUCHE . I lodge in the same house with the prosector. On Friday, the 27th of November, I hear him send the prisoner out with a pair of shoes, about five o'clock, or a little after—I was in the room when she returned—she seemed a little the worse for liquor—she ordered the bed to be let down, and laid down on it—she used all the abusive language that ever came out of a woman's mouth—she laid down for about twenty minutes, using this abusive language, then got up deliberately, took the poker from the fire-place, and used it on the prosecutor—he received the blow on his arm in stopping it from his head—he then got up and went to resent it—I parted them, and took him into my room—a scuffle ensued between them—I parted them, to prevent furthere mischief—he was in my room for twenty minutes, or half an hour and then the prisoner was going to take some things out of the place to sell—we overhead her speaking to my wife—the prosecutor then went into the prisoner's room, and I followed him—a scuffle ensued between them, close to the seat that he works by—the prosecutor wanted to stop his things from going out—she went to strike him, and he wanted to guard to blow off—I did not notice her take any thing off the seat, till the wound was inflicted—not till I saw the knife in her hand, and I rescued it—I saw her strike him, but did not see what it was done with till the blow was done, and then I saw the knife in her hand—I saw blood flow—I rescued the knife from her hand, and went to assist the prosecutor, who fainted away in the corner—they were both scuffling together when she plunged the knife—the prosecutor was standing up at the time the blow was inflicted—I did not see the prisoner at that moment, as I went to assist him as he fall into the corner, with his neck up—the prisoner seized another knife off the seat directly, and swore she would stab we as well—I immediately left the prosecutor and ran up to her, seized the other knife, and succeded in getting that from her—I went to the prosecutor, and said to the prisoner, "See, are not you ashamed of yourself. seeing you have stabbed the man"—her answer was, "B—him, I wil; cut his b—throut before the night is over—directly afterwards, while I was assisting the prosecutor, she put on her bonnet and shawl, and ran down stairs—I instantly pursued her—the
street door was open—I just got my finger on her shawl, but she made her escape from me—I saw nothing more of her till one o'clock, or between that and two o'clock, after midnight, when she knocked at the door—a person down in the kitchen said, "That woman is at the door, shall we let her in?"—I went down, and saw the prisoner with two policeman, I gave her in charge—I took the knife, and gave it into the hands of a sergeant of the police—that is the knife.
Cross-examined. Q. How old is your daughter? A. About fourteen years—she is my eldest dauhgter—she is not more than fourteen or fifteen, at the outside—I am sure she is not sixteen—she is not here—nor my wife—they were both there after the mischief was done—I left my wife and daughter in the room with the prisoner, when I took Pettiest from her, but they came out of it, and went on the landing, as there were three or four neighbours there, on account of the alarm, by the ill language—the house is as quite as any in the neighbourhood—we never have disturbances, except when the prisoner does it, which has been two or three times—the prosecutor is a steady, hard-working, quiet man—I never saw any harm of him—I cannot tell whether she is always in fault—I do not meddle with other people's affairs—I never saw him beat her but once, that was when she broke the pannel of the door in—I never saw her with a black eye, not bruises on the face, while I have been in the house—I am as quiet as most people—I was never charged before a magistrate with beating my wife—I swear that—I was at Marlborough-street under a charge of being a little in liquor—I was not charged with beating any one—the prosecutor and I are not in the habit of heating the prisoner—that is not your business—I am not come on that business, and I shall not answer—there was a scuffle after I returned—my wife and daughter were then reasoning with her, to keep quietness—my daughter did not see the scuffle—I ordered them out of the place at the time I went in—they were there when I overhead the conversation about selling—the door was left open when I ordered them out—I ordered them out, because it was not a proper place for a girl of that sort to be in, to hear the till language—the prosecutor and the prisoner both got hold of one another, struggling against the seat, when this happened—his arm was round her waist, or neck—I did not see him strike any blow—the prisoner did not cry out, to my knowledge—I will swear she did not cry out repeatedly—my wife and daughter, and other neighbours, were within hearing.
Q. The prisoner attempted to escape—when you said, "You have stabbed the man," did she not burst into tears, and say, "Oh, I have hurt him, and will run for a doctor?" A. Nothing of the kind—she did not burst into tears at all: it was quite the reverse of that—she escaped, and I tried to detain her—I do not know that she gave herself up to the police. I understand the policeman told her she must either go away or go-in-doors—the surgeon's orders were for me to give in charge when I saw her—I did not notice her at the door till after one o'clock—she was not crying then—she seemed much the same as when she was in the room—I saw no alteration at all—she was as she generally is when in that way.
GEORGE STONE . I am a policeman. On Friday night, the 27th of November Delabertouche gave me this knife—I have had the care of it ever since—there was a little blood on it at fist, (a very little,) but it has worn off by my having it in my pocket—about one o'clock in the morning the prisoner was standing in Windwill-street, close to the door—I asked what
she was standing there for—she said she and her husband had had some words, and she had struck him, she believed.
Cross-examined. Q. How long had you observed her waiting about the door? A. About a quarter of an hour; but the man on the beat had told me of it before—she appeared waiting about, as id she wanted to get in—this is a case-knife—she said they had been quarrelling, and she believed she had struck him—I knocked at the door, to make inquiry if it was correct or not—Deliberation came to the door, with another man and woman, and gave her in charge—I went up stairs, and saw the man lying on his bed—I left her with another policeman—she never attempted to escape—she appeared very sorry, and as if she had been drinking—I have not seen the doctor—h is not here—she did not say the prosecutor had been illusing her for having drink, or spending sixpence out of a shilling—I could not see any marks of violence on her—I do not recollect that she pointed out where she had been beaten; but she did at Marlborought-street—I cannot undertake to say that she did not do so that night—she had told the other policeman what she had done—I knocked at the door twice to get in.
Prisoner's Defence. (written.) "At the time I inflicted the wound the prosecutor was beating me in the most brutal manner—In my passion I seized the knife to protect myself—I have never ceased since to regreat my conduct, but I was overcome with rage, and unconscious of what I was doing."
NOT GUILTY .
GUILTY . Aged 15.— Confined Three Months.
Before Mr. Baron parks.
264. THOMAS MOORE was indicted , for that he, on the 23rd of September at St. Ann and Agnes, London, feloniously, knowingly, and wailfully, did send to one Harriet the wife of Samuel Debnam, a certain letter, with a certain name and signature subscribed thereto, that is to say, "Charles," which said letter was directed to the said Harriet Debnam, by the direction and description of "Mrs. Deadman, Beckenham, Kent," thereby threatening to burn and destroy the house of the said Harriet Debnam against the Statute.—2nd COUNT, stating the house to be the house of Samuel Debnam.
HARRIET DEBNAM . I am the wife of Samuel Debnam, and live at Beckenham, in Kent. I am acquainted with the prisoner—I know him by sight—on the 23rd of Septenber last, I received this letter by the post—It is addressed to Mrs. Dead man—I know nobody of that name living at Beckman—I do not know the hand-writing of the letters—I received another letter the same day, which I burnt—I have received other letters.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. How long have you known the prisoner's father? A. Ten years, and his mother also—I knew the prisoner from a child—I never had any quarrel with him or his father.
years ago, occasionally, not very frequently—I cannot say how many times—he used to receipts bill occasionally at the house where I lived servant—merely writing, "Settled," or "Paid, T. M.," and the date—I lived there three years—I cannot say how often I saw him write—I have seen him write three or four times—he used to come to the house with vegetables from his father, who is a gardener—he was quite a youth at that time—I have not seen his writing for fall years—I cannot form any judgement whose writing that is (looking at the letter)—I cannot say whether it is his writing or not—I can form no judgement of it at all—It is not at all like the handwitting I used to see him write.
(There being no witness who could identify the letter as the hand-writing of the prisoner, he was)
Before Mr. Justice Litteldale.
JOHN SMITH . I am a butcher, and live in the Edge ware-road. On Friday, the 21st of February, 1834, I bought three hind of beef, of Chandler, a master butcher, in New gate-market—I paid 12l. 11s. 9d. for it—I employed Russell and Saddler to take it home—I never received it.
JOHN RUSSELL . I live at Peckman, and keep a beer-shop now. In February, 1834, I lived at Somer's-town, and was a porter in Newgate-market—the prisoner was in my employment as a weekly servant—I remember three hind quarters of beef being delivered to me, the property of Smith and one belonging to Mills, of battle-bridge, on the 21st of February—I was only a master porter in the markets, and the prisoner was our servant to drive the cart—the beef was delivered into the certain his change. with instructions from me and Sadler to deliver them to Smith and Mills, the owners, as he had done before—Sadler carried then down, and put them in the cart to told personal my self to take them to Mrs. smith's I ordered at first to go get them from Charles and deliver them into the cart—Saddler was in partnership with me—he had half of what we earned in the market—we had no business together except in the earnings of the market—I saw the prisoner next about last Monday week—he was brought in custody to Guildhall—he was out of employ but he had been in out employ several weeks—I never saw him from the 21st of February till last Monday week, when he was brought to Guildhall.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. Did you give instructions to Kenny yourself about the beef? A. Yes; I saw the three quarters placed in the cart—I will not swear that I saw the other put in—I saw it carried down—I told my partner to go and fetch it—Sadler carried it himself from Chandler's—It was his business—I found the horse and cart, and he did the labour—I never carried meat myself—I told the prisoner Smith's address—he had carried a great quantity of meat there before, two or three times a week—he always took it regularly.
THOMAS SADLER . I live in seward-street, Goswell-street. In 1834, I attended New gate-market—I have been porter there twenty-five or thirty years—John Russell and I were partners—I found the work, and he found the horse and cart—on the 21st of February, 1834, Russell came to
me, and said there was three quarters of beef at Mr. Chandler's belonging to Mr. Smith—he told me to fetch them down, and put them in the cart—I went to Chandler's, and brought them down, one at a time, and delivered them into the cart in war wick-square—after putting all the meat in ready, I told Kenny to take one to Mills, of Battle-bridge, and three quarters to Mr. Smith—he had taken meat a great many times there before—I saw him drive the cart into Newgate-street.
Cross-examined. Q. Were there any other porters engaged with you in your business? A. No; there was nobody but me and Russell—Mr. Smith's is in Edge ware-road, and he was then to go to Mills—then up to go down Battle-bridge-road—that would take him to Mills—then up to King's-cross, and the New-road, to Edgware-road—that is the way we generally go—Battle-bridge is as near a road as you can go.
COURT. Q. When did you see the prisoner after the 21st of February? A. I did not see him from the time he started with the cart, till the day before yesterday, at Guildhall.
JURT to JOHN RUSSELL. Q. When did you get possession of the cart again? A. The cart was left in Fell-street, Wood-street I believe—It was left in the care of a boy, and was brought to me the same night with something trivial in it—I think two small joints of meat.
GUILTY . Aged 22.— Confined Six Months.
Before Mr. Baron Parker.
ANN HARDING . I am the wife of William Harding, and live in hadlow-street. I employed the prisoner as a char-woman occasionally—on Saturday, the 5th of December, I employed her—she left my house about nine o'clock that night, and shortly after she was gone, I missed a silk cloak, which I had seen at seven o'clock that evening—In consequence of information from Sarah Buck, my servant, I went after the prisoner, and found her at own house—I told her of my loss—she said she knew nothing about it, and she would go back to my house, for she was sure it was there—she went back, and could not find it—I placed Buck the servant near her house to watch.
Prisoner. I did not deny having a cloak, but I said it was not hers.
Witness. She said she knew nothing about it.
SARAH BUCK . I am servant to Mrs. Hoarding. On the 5th of December the prisoner was at the house—when she came in, about one o'clock she had no bundle with her—I saw her go out about seven o'clock and I thought I saw a bulk round her—I went and told my mistress—I afterwards went with my mistress to the prisoner's house—I was left at the door, and saw Farrell coming from the opposite house—I had seen the prisoner go into that house before—Farrell had nothing then, and while I was waiting at the prisone's door, Farrell came out of the prisoner's house, with a bundle under her shawl—I followed her towards Cow-cross.
ELLEN FARRELL . I live opposite the prisoner's. On Saturday, the 5th of December, she came to my house, but brought nothing with her—I afterwards went to her house, at her request—she asked me to come, to
go with her to take a pick-axe and shovel out of pawn—she told me a lady had given her this cloak to pawn, and she was to have a shilling for her trouble—I was going with her, and she told me to go on with the clock—I took it, and went towards Cow-cross with it, and the constable took me—It was the clock I got from her.
MRS. HARDING, re-examined. This is my cloak, and what I missed on the 5th of December—I did not give it to her.
Prisoner's Defence. I went on the Saturday week to the lady's house to work, and she sent me to a lodger of hers, in the two-pair front—on going up, Birch was there, screwing down the window, to prevent the girls looking out after the gentleman—the lodger asked Sarah to lend her 6d., to send for some gin, which she would not give her—after they were gone, she said, "Mrs. Russel, I want you to pawn an article for me, can you go now?"—I said, "No ma'am, I cannot go now"—the prosecutor keeps another house in the street, which is a bad house—Mrs. Russell, the lodger, afterwards passed me on the stairs, and gave me the cloak to pledge—she said, "Do not let Mrs. Haring see it, for I owe her money"—I did not know it was Mrs. Harding's clock—I pledged it in the neighbourhood.
MRS. HARDING, re-examined. I have a lodger named Russell—she has a cloak, but is not like this—when I went to the prisoner's house, she said she knew nothing of the cloak—I saw her a second time, and she said the same—the lady she alludes to was not at home at the time.
GUILTY . Aged 34.— Confined Three Months.
MARY RYVES . I am the wife of Henry Wyndham Ryves, and live in Speldhurst-street, Burton-crescent. On the 3rd of November I missed a towel, a silver and an apron the prisoner had slept in my house the night before—I did not know her before that—I saw the things safe on Friday morning—I missed the shift on the Tuesday afterwards.
Prisoner. Q. Is your name Ryves or Jones? A. Ryves. I did not introduce a person named Jones to Mr. Higgins, as my husband—Mr. Higgins lives next door to me—I went there, and you was there—I had taken the house, and was alone in it—I asked Mr. Higgins to recommend me a woman to sleep with me for company, and he recommended you; on going to bed you had no shift on, and I gave you one, as you said you had been in distress, and next night you took another shift out of my drawer—I was not drunk, nor reeling in the Kennel—I did not lock you out in the passage that night—I was very ill that night—I had been under the doctor's hands for seven weeks—my piece had gone the day before, and Mr. Jones had not been in the house that day—I never saw you after taking my things, till you were in custody.
Q. Did you not come to me on Monday, and send me to pawn your cloak? A. No; I sent you to pawn a bolster, and several other articles—you brought me 12s., and the duplicate—I did not give you the gown or any thing—the apron was in the kitchen drawer—I never saw you after Tuesday morning, the 3rd of November.
on the last charge—I found thirty-one duplicates in her room—I asked her whose property they were—she said they were her own.
JAMES GILL . I am a pawnbroker, and live in Willmot-street, Brunewick-street. I have a silver thimble, and an apron, pawned on the 2nd of November—I know the prisoner, but I am not quite certain whether she or her daughter pawned them—It was one of them—the towel was pawned on the 3rd—the duplicates I gave for them are among those produced.
Prisoner. I am aware they are hers, but she gave them to me—I waited on her two days and three nights, and never received a sixpence from her—she was in such a drunk state all the time.
Witness. I gave her a shilling every morning—I have been married twenty years to Mr. Ryves.
GUILTY .— Confined One Month Longer.
Third Jury, before Mr. Recorder.
JOHN MILES . I am a cabinet-maker, and live in Lesther-lane, Holborn. On the afternoon of the 16th of December, I was at the back part of my shop—my attention was attracted by the prisoner opening the door, and hatch, and coming in—I thought it was my man at first, but finding it was not him, I went forward, and saw the prisoner get just out of the door with the desk in his hand—I immediately collared him, brought him into the shop, and charged him with stealing the desk—he said he did it through peverty, and begged of me to let him go—he fell on his knees, and begged me to forgive him, and said he would do any thing to serve me if I would let him go—I gave him in charge of a policeman.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
GUILTY . Aged 16.— Confined Three Months.
NEW COURT.—Thursday, December 17, 1835.
Fifth Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy..— Confined Nine Months.
MARIA LOCKYER . I am a widow, and live in Britannia-street, City-road. I know the prisoner—I remember in November, about six years ago, being at Christ church, Blackfrairs-road, when the prisoner was married to Elizabeth Was sell—they resided with me from the marriage till
the February following—I was one of the subscribing witnesses to the register.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Was the prisoner an apprentice in the house of Messrs. Winchester and Co.? A. Yes—I believe his friends did not know of his marriage—his wife was not in the family way—she did not lay in till the November following—she was married in November 1829—there was a miscarriage about a couple of months after the marriage—I did not get up the marriage—she is now alive.
No other withness appearing the prisoner was
272. GEORGE KNAPP was indicted for stealing, on the 22nd of October, 3 boards, value 3s., the goods of Susanna Gammon; also, on the 29th of October, 60 sticks of wood, value 3s., the goods of Susanna Gannon; and on the 10th of November, 10 wooden boards, value 10s., the goods of Susanna Gannon.
The prosecutrix and witness being called on their recognizances did not appear.
NOT GUILTY .
273. MARTHA WOOD was indicted for stealing, on the 4th of September, 11 aprons, value 17s.; 10 pockets, value 2s.; 5 napkins, value 5s.; 1 cloak, value 2l.; 17 yards of serge, value 1l.; 4 yards of brown holland, value 4s.; 7 yards of drill, value 7s.; 13 yards of linen cloth, value 60s.; 2 yards of cambric muslin, value 2s.; 30 yards of calico, value 12s.; 1 penknife, value 2s., the goods of Thomas Weldon, her master, in his dwelling-house.
THOMAS WELDON . I am a tailor, and live in Hollis-street, Cavendishsquare. The prisoner was about twelve months in my service—she was discharged about the end of September—I had missed things, particularly about six yards of brown cloth—I afterwards missed all these articles, and went on the 9th of November with Avis, the officer, to Mr. Berry's, in Oxford-street—I saw her box there, and asked her to open it, which she did, and there I found the silk and cloth in her presence—Mr. Berry brought me a piece of cloth she said she had bought in the City, for a guineas a yard, but when we found in the other box such a quantity of property she admitted it was mine—the property was concealed in three boxes—It is all mine.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Do you mean to say that she said they were her boxes? A. Yes—I have an apprentice boy—I had not sold the property—I never sell cloth—here is a private mark of my own—here is a duplicate piece cut out, which matches with the list of the cloth—I had the prisoner from Captain diver, with a very excellent character.
(Captain Lewis, George Diver, and Mrs. Diver, gave the prisoner a good character, and engaged to take her into their employ)
GUILTY of stealing, under the value of 5l.—Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor and Jury..— Confined Four Days.
274. GEORGE SMITH was indicted for stealing, on the 18th of November 3 handkercheif, value 15s.; 20 yards of black satin, value 4l. 20 yards of lace, value 3l.; 2 shawls, value 5l.; 30 yards of ribbon, value 30s.; 10 yards of velvet, value 5l.; 60 yards of brown Holland, value 3l.; 90 yards of Irish linen, value 8l.; and 13 yards of lawn, value 30s., the goods of Thomas Hamber, his master.—2nd COUNT, stating them to the belong to Thomas Hamber and others, his masters.
MR. PHILLIPS and MR. GURNEY conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS HAMBER. I am one of the messengers of the Court of Bankruptcy. I produce the proceedings under a fiat against Samuel Strong, and a certificate of the appointment of the official assignees, George Gibson, Thomas Boyd, and two others—on the 18th of November I took the prisoner and put him in possession of the premises, at Nos. 337 and 339. Oxford-street—I found the doors sealed up by the Sheriff's officers, who had been previously there—I broke the seals, and placed the prisoner in charge of the whole of the property—on the 30th of November, in consequence of information, I went to the premises with Mr. Parrington—Mr. Ashurat was with me some part of the time—I asked the prisoner if he could account for the robbery—he denied any knowledge of it—I asked him if he had used due precaution in keeping the place secured at night—he told me he had, and that no person had access but himself—I went with Mr. Ashurst the next day and the same questions were repeated—the prisoner still denied all knowledge of the robbery—he said, his wife and two persons were the only visitors that he saw—one was a person whose name he did not recollect—he did not state where he had been while the visitors were there—he was asked how many times his wife had visited him, and he said, three times, and that the other persons were merely casual visitors, as they passed—Mr. Ashrust questioned him very particularly as to the property—he still denied all knowledge of it—Mr. Ashurst cautioned him, that if he found any thing, however trifling, in his lodgings, he should consider him guilty of the whole, and he should be punished—he said he wads quite contened that it should be so, and he gave directions, in a written note to his wife, to permit us to see every place belonging to him, at his lodgings—we went to his lodgings in Nelson-street, Commercial-road—he was asked id any one else could have taken any thing while he was there—he said, "Certainly not," because he had secured the place with a seal, placed by himself—he told us his lodgings were at No. 5, New Nelson-street—I went there in company with Mr. Parrington, Mr. Strong, the bankrupt, and Mr. Wooley, his foreman—the lodgings were searched, and we found a remnant of a piece of linen, which is now in Court—It is about eight yards—It was found in a drawer in the room, at his lodgings, Mrs. Atherways's, who, I believe, is the prisoner's sister-in-law—those lodgings were searched in my presence—a box was found, containing silk and mercery goods; and a portmanten, containing rib ands—It was found just as they are produced—after that, I went back to Oxford-street, and gave the prisoner into custody—I examined the seals, and they were broken—from the inventory and the cost price which I saw marked, I should think the property produced is worth from 80l. to 100l.—I desired the prisoner to turn out his pockets, and found about 2l. in gold and silver—I found a letter at his lodging—I know his handwriting; this is it (read) "19th of November, 1835, 337, Oxford-street. To Mary Smith, 5, New Nelson-street, Commercial-road. Dear Mary, on leaving the Borough yesterday, I was sent here in possession—It is also a linen-draper's shop—I should have written to you earlier, but had got paper, or any money to but a sheet of paper; let me have my clean things—G. Smith"—Between the 19th and 30th of November, I had not paid him any money—his wife received 1l.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. The 18th was the day you put him in possession? A. Yes; Mr. Parrington and another person, as his assistant were with me at the time—he is not here, that I am aware of—the bankrupt was on his premises, and saw all we did—I did not clearly understand the state of the property with regard to the sale—the rooms containing the property, only were sealed—I had not been in before—all I know is, that some rooms, containing silks, were sealed when I put this man in possession—I broke the Sheriff's scale—I did not take particular notice of these seals—they were a common piece of paper, scaled with wax—some impression was on them, but I did not notice it—the seales were broken, in my presence, on the 18th, and my man put in possession—I went into the rooms, and then the property was given into possession of the prisoner—I did not see the prisoner seal them—he said he sealed them up—when the loss was discovered he did not attempt to throw blame on any other person—he said he was responsible—I have known him some years, and consedered him confident al—he did not say where was when his wife and the person whom he did not know were on the premises.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. When you questioned the prisoner, had you any clue to where the property was? A. No; he said he was present all the time his wife and the visitors were in any part where the property was—there were parts in which there was no property, where they might he without his being present—he told me, that after he took procreation, he had taken the precaution of sealing up the places where the property was—this property could not have been carried off without the person in possession seeing it.
COURT. Q. Was he asked the name of the persons who came with his wife? A. Yes; one was Webb, the other he could not recollect.
SAMUEL STRONG . I became a bankrupt, and the prisoner was put into possession, at my premises—I and my family were excluded from the part where the property was—I was in the shops three or four times afterwards—the prisoner was always there—this piece of cloth was in my stock where I became bankrupt, and this piece of velvet was mine, I am certain of it—I had seen it previously to the Sheriff coming to take possession—It had not been sold, to my knowledge—I don't know Mrs. Waterway—she is a poor woman, and not likely to buy velvet of this description—when my property was seized the doors were fastened up, and sents put upon then—I went into the counting-house, I believe, twice afterwards, and the seals were taken off the door, that I might get my books out—Mr. Mason was with me at those times—he saw the seals broken for me to get in, and he sealed them up again—to the best of my belief, the whole of the property is mine—I did not take any article away, nor did Mr. Mason.
Cross-examined. Q. were you residing on the premises from the time the Sheriff took possession, till the prisoner was put in? A. Yes; both the shops were sealed up—we inhabited the rest of the house—I saw the Sheriff's clerk seal the shops—I do not think I saw the seals broken when the prisoner came—other persons might have broken the Sheriff's seals, taken out goods, and put on other seals, but it is not probable—my private cost mark is on this velvet, and the selling price, in my own writing—I believe I saw it at the time the Sheriff came—that was ten days before the messenger came—all the linen-drapers of London have bits of linen—I would not say that this piece has not been sold.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Did you sell it to the prisoner or his wife? A. No.
COURT. Q. Will you swear that all this property has not been sold? A. I do not believe any of it has.
HENRY HEWITT MASON . I went to Mr. Strong's counting-house, and broke the seals—I sealed up the doors again—I am sure neither Mr. Strong nor myself took any thing of this kind from the premises—we only took books ans paper.
THOMAS ELLIOTT PRICE . I am an auctioneer. I was on the premises on the 14th of November, in company with Mr. Mason—I saw the premises sealed up—from the 14th to the 15th at night, nothing was taken away, to my knowledge.
JOHN HOWHAN . I am clerk to Mr. Parrington, the accountant. This piece of lace has my mark on it—I assisted in taking the inventory, and saw this piece of lace there, to the best of my belief, on the 26th of November.
Cross-examined. Q. Does this lace bear that date? A. It does not—I went there on the 23d, and on the 26th I finished measuring—the laee was the last thing I measured—I am quite sure this is my mark on it—It was in a box with others—Mr. Swan was with me—I was generally admitted by the prisoner—other persons were there.
(Mr. Biden, of New gate-street; Mr. Pascoe, an inn-keeper, of Bishopsgate; and Mr. Gibson, of Lawrence-lane; gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY. Aged 31.— Judgement Respited.
NOT GUILTY .
276. JAMES BENNETT was indicted for stealing, on the 1st of December, at St. George, Blooms burry, 26 spoons, value 12l.; 1 pistol, value 5s.; 1 watch-key, value 3s.; the goods of Charles Ridley, his master; and 1 watch, value 20s., the goods of Sarah Jackson, in the dwelling-house of the said Charles Ridley; and THOMAS BENNETT was indicted for feloniously receiving the same, well knowing them to have been stolen, against the Statute.
SARAH JACKSON . I am servant to Mr. Charles Ridley, who lives in Bedford-street, Bedford-square in the parish of St. George's, Bloomsburry; he is a surgeon. James Bennett was foot-boy to my master, for three months—on the 1st of December, I missed a watch, eight table, seventeen tea, and one salt-spoon—here is the pistol—this is the watch I missed—the spoons have not been found, except the salt-spoon—I saw them at half-past one o'clock, and missed them at two o'clock—this watch is when—I am single—James Bennett away and did not come back any more.
Thomas Bennett. Q. Is that watch your own? A. Yes, it is—It was in my possession.
RICHARD RANDALL . I live at No. 9, Albemarle-street, Clerkwell, I am a jeweller and salesmen. I do not produce the spoons—most of them are melted, or sold—Thomas Bennett came to me about half-past one o'clock on the 3rd of December, to sell some silver—he produced twenty silver spoons, and asked if I bought silver—I said, "Yes"—he asked what I gave an ounce—I said, "four shillings and tenpence halfpenny"—he said, "Very well, weigh them," but before
that I asked if they were his own property—he said, "Yes, certainly whose do you suppose it is?"—I said, "Very well, I have a right to ask you the question"—they weighed 18oz,—I gave him 4l. 8s. 2 1/2d. for them—this salt-spoon I consider is one of them—there were some letters on some of them—the officers came last Thursday, the 10th, (I believe)about the spoons—they asked if I had bought any silver—the spoons had lain is the window several days for sale—I melted a few at one time, and a few at another, just as I had occasion for them—I might have melted some a day or two after I purchased them—I have no doubt that this salt-spoon is one I bought.
Q. Do you generally buy twenty silver spoons with initials or crests on them, from persons of that description? A. I am very young in business—I never bought any before—I have only been five months in business—the greater part of them were broken and bent ab—decidedly as old silver.
Q. Did you conceive that a boy of that description could have come honestly by twenty silver spoons? A. I had no suspicion that they were come by dishonestly—I consider that I gave a fair value for them.
prisoner Thomas Bennett. I asked him if he bought silver—he said, "Yes"—I produced the spoons to him—he said, "I will buy them"—he never asked if they were my own.
GEORGE COLLIER (police-constable E 38.) In consequence of information I went to Newmarket, and found the two prisoners there, at No. 3, Birds'-alley—I took them into custody—I told them what for—they both said they knew nothing about it—I searched them, and on Thomas Bennett I found the watch produced, and this pistol, (which was not then loaded—he said he had fired it off half an hour before he went into the house)—ten bullets, and a quantity of gun-powder, and 1s. 6d. in money—on James Bennett I found 11s. in money, and a coat and waistcoat—on Thomas I found this old stocking—I took Thomas to the cage—I took the other to the White Lion, where I stopped—two or three hours after I went down to the cage, and heard Thomas say he would make away with himself before morning—I called the constable, and we took his garters and shoes, and things away, and asked him what he meant—he said it was a very good thing I found him as I did—I asked what he meant to do with the bullets—he said, to put one through me, and then destroy himself, and her would destroy himself—I asked what he did with the spoons—he stated the next morning that he received them from his brother James, at Tottenham-court-road—that he waited outside while his brother James went into Mr. Ridley's house, and brought the spoons out in this old stocking, also the watch an pistol, and half-a-crown in silver; that they then went along the New-road, down to Clerkenwell, and he went to the man's house where he sold the spoons—he did not know his name, but he could show me the house—he said the spoons were never bent, or any thing, and that twelve of them were nearly new, and the man asked him no questions as to whose they were—he said his small scales were too little to weight them, and he sent up stairs for his larger ones, that he never told him the weight but said, "There is your money," and gave him 4l. 8s. 2d.—he said his brother was waiting for him at the corner—I went with Thomas Bennett to Randall's house—I sent him in to ask if he would but any more spoons as he thought he had not given him enough before, and to know if he would give him a better price—he went in, and Randall was not at home—Mrs. Randall said he would her in in half an hour, and he might either
wait or come again—I kept him with me till that time, and then sent him again—he came out and said, "He is at home, now"—I went in with my brother officer—I saw Randall, and asked him if he had bought any spoons of the prisoner—he said, "Yes"—I asked him how long ago—he said, "A month"—I said, "Are you sure of that?"—he said, "It is full three weeks"—I then asked what he gave—he said, "4l. 8s. 10d."—I said, "Are you sure of that?"—he said, "It was 4l.8s. and something"—he said it was brought there, and he never asked any questions, if they bought silver, he bought it—I asked what he did with it—he said he melted it down immediately—I asked how he came to buy new spoons with initials on them—he said it was a rule of the trade, if spoons were brought with initials on them, to melt them down.
JAMES BENNETT— GUILTY . Aged 15.— Transported for Life.
THOMAS BENNETT— GUILTY . Aged 24.— Transported for Fourteen Years.
The witness, Randall, was committed to prison by the Court.
GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy. Aged 22.— Confined Three Months.
278. MARY ANN MAYNARD was indicted for feloniously receiving, of an evil-disposed person, 135lbs. weight of tallow, value 7l.; and 1lb. of candles, value 1s.; the goods of Warren Stormes Hale, well knowing them to have been stolen, against the Statute, &c.
CHARLES FIELD . I live at No. 58, Mint-street, Lambeth, and am a tallow-chandler. On the 15th of November, Abrahams came to me with some tallow—I refused to take it in, unless she could give me some satisfaction how she came by it—the porter, Emanuel Mordecai, came to me again, and I gave him in charge—I kept the tallow—this is it.
PHŒBE ABRAHAMS . I am the wife of George Abrahams, of No. 3, Cobb-yard, Whitechapel. I employed Mordecal to carry the tallow for me to Mr. Field's—I had bought it of the prisoner three or four weeks back, in two lots—I gave her at the rate of 3d. a lb. for it—I sold it at 4d. or 4 1/2d. a lb. to Mr. Field—I took part in candles, and part in money—I gave 1l. 5s. 9d. for it.
Prisoner. You did not buy it of me—you bought it of my husband at seven o'clock in the evening—I was out of the room at the time it was bought.
COURT to MR. ABRAHAMS. Q. Where was this bought? A. In Ropemaker-street, in her own apartment—she told me she occupied the first and second floor—It laid in the first floor, in a blue bag, and she emptied it into my bag—I never saw her husband—I should not know him.
Prisoner. You know you come three times during the evening to see him—you waited till half-past seven, and saw him, and the landlady known that she saw my husband—It was No. 27, Ropemakers'-street, near the City-road. Witness. I only saw Mrs. Maynard—I saw the landlady, who keeps a grocer's shop—I saw her years back—no man was present on that occasion—I
did not buy it of him—the landlady was not present—there was no one present, barring me and Mrs. Maynard.
WILLIAM WARREN HALE . I live with my father, Warren Stormes Hale, in Cannon-street. He is a wax and tallow-chandler—I can swear this is his property—we could not miss this from our stock, but it is never sold in this way, and nobody is allowed to take it out—we have it in this state—we know it by the mark of the press—It is worth 1s. a pound—these candles are my father's—we had a man of the name of Maynard in out employ—he lived at No. 27, Ropemaker-street, where we went, and founds some of materials on the premises—I did not see the piscine there—did not now liven the till he had absconded—we some tallow melted down in a case—that is here, but I do not swear to that which Mr. Field bought of Mrs. Abrahams.
BENJAMIN CLUTTERBUCK . I produce some candles, which I found at No. 27, Ropemaker-street, in a box. Having received information on the 13th of November, I went there, and found the prisoner in the first floor room—she said she had sold it to Mr. Abrahams, and they had purchased it of a cousin of theirs—on the fire I saw some of the property burning, the same as this now produced—I asked her what made her put it there—she made no answer at first, but then said, she had, often done so—I asked if she had any more—she said no, I was welcome to look—she opened some boxes, but there was another box she seemed loath to open—I said, "I must look into it," and she opened it—I found these candles in it.
Prisoner's Defence. it now about it.
GUILTY. Aged 22.—Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor. Confined Eight Days.
279. JOSEPH O'BRIEN was indicted for feloniously receiving, on the 3rd of December, of a certain evil-disposed person, 1 tea-caddy, value 6l.; 2 glass bottles, value 1l.; and 1 sugar-basin, value 10s.; the goods of Henry Willmot Sealey, well knowing the same to have been stolen, against the Statute, &c.
HENRY WILLMOT SEALEY . I live in the City-road, and am an upholster. On Thursday evening, the 3rd of December, I missed a tortoise-shell tea-chest, two glass bottles, and a sugar-basin—I gave notice to the pawnbrokers, and afterwards went to the Salisbury Arms, Durham-street, Strand, which is kept by the prisoner—the officer said something to him, but not in my hearing—the prisoner answered, that he had purchased the tea-caddy for 2l. 10s. of a person who was in the habit of using his house, but he did not know his name—this was the Saturday following (the 5th)—he described him as a tall man, with a strong Yorkshire dialect, and that he was going to Durham—he said he sent his mother to pawn it—It was worth 8l. 8s.
JAMES DAVIS SHORT . I am foreman to Messrs. Brown, Fetter-lane, pawnbrokers. The tea-caddy was offered to pledge for 50s., by a female, who was taken, but discharged—I asked her name—she said Ann Smith, but gave her right address.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Did the prisoner come and leave his card with you? A. Yes; he did.
NOT GUILTY .
280. HENRY HEALEY and WILLIAM SAUNDERS were indicted for stealing, on the 9th of October, 1 watch, value 12l.; 1 watch-chain, value 1l.; 2 seals, value 1l.; and 2 watch-keys, value 1l.; the goods of Samuel Tompkins.
SAMUEL TOMPKINS . I live at the Green Man, at Ealing. On the 9th of October, I arrived at home between eight and nine o'clock—I pulled my watch out to see the time—the parlour clock was down, I went to wind it up, and I judge I laid the watch down on the table—I did not miss it till the next morning—this is it—there was a gold chain, two seals, and two gold keys—the prisoner Healey lodged at my house for four months—he had not been away till he was detected in Tottenham-court-road.
LOUIS KYEZOR . I keep a silversmith's shop, at No. 16, Tottenham-court-road. On Friday afternoon, between four and five o'clock, the prisoner Healey came to my shop, to offer me a glad watch—he said it cost him 37l. he wanted 35l. for it, and said he was a decayed farmer, which made him want to sell it—In consequence of the price he asked, I was well convinced he did not know the value of it, and asked if he had any person who knew that it was his—he said he had a man at the door—he opened the door, and called in Saunders (but before that Healey said his name was Walker)—I told Saunders to come into my parlour, and asked him if he knew the other man had a gold watch—he said, "Yes, he found it in Oxford-road"—I went to Healey again, and said, "What, did you my you gave for it 37l.?"—he said, "Yes, but there was a chain and seals to it, which made it come to that price"—he then fainted away—I took him in, and gave him a glass of water—he recovered, and I asked him if he could bring any other person—he said yes, and named a butcher—he went away after I had taken a description of his person, and brought a butcher—I took him into my parlour and he prevaricated—I said I should give them into custody—they all ran out of the shop—I ran, and brought them back.
SAMUEL TOMPKINS re-examined. Q. Had you ever seen Saunders before? A. Yes; he had lived ostler with me six or seven years—he might have been on the premises when I lost the watch—he was not my outler then, but lived at the Hats, about 200 yards from me.
JOHN COPE FOLKARD . I am a pawnbroker, and live at Old Brentford. On the 19th of October, a person pledged this chain for 10s.—I have no doubt it was Healey, though he was differently dressed to what he is now—the seal was pledged by Saunders on the 28th, but they are both in the name of Henry Walker.
Saunders. I never was in the shop in my life. Witness. Yes; he was—It was between five and six o'clock in the evening—he came into one of the private boxes—I asked if it was his—he said it was.
Healey's Defence. I got up between six and seven o'clock—my mistress was up—I was going out of doors, and put my foot on the top of the haycrib, and there laid the watch—I told Saunders of it.
HEALEY— GUILTY. Aged 24.—Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor.— Confined One Year.
SAUNDERS— NOT GUILTY .
281. JAMES BRANSGROVE was indicted for stealing, on the 3rd of December, 1 stew-pan, value 2s.; and 1 coffee-pot, value 1s.; the goods of John Neighbour; and that he had been before convicted of felony.
ELIZABETH NEIGHBOUR . I am the prosecutor's daughter. I want to the prisoner's lodging, and asked if he had got the things—he said he had not—I left him, and went back again two or three times—he still denied it—I was coming away, and saw them—I said, "Here they are"—he took me into his room, and acknowledged that he took them—he had come in to borrow a little flour—he said he was very sorry, but did not mean to keep them—I said if he would confess, and give the things up, I would give him half-a-crow—I did promise to forgive him.
NOT GUILTY .
JAMES WELLS . I keep a tobacconist's shop, in Leigh-street. On the 13th of December, I was in the parlour with my wife, at half-past six o'clock my attention was called to the shop, and I saw the prisoner run from the door—I followed him, and took him about one hundred yards of—I had not lost sight of him—I met the offcer, and we took him to the station-house—I said, "You had better tell me where I can find the property and in that case I will do what I can for You"—officer found the property—It is mine—I had seen it safe in my shop ten minutes before—the prisoner had been to my shop to buy a sheet of paper—when I took him, he turned with his back to an srea, and the officer found the cigars in that area.
GUILTY . Aged 18.— confined Six Weeks.
THOMAS FLEMING . I am a commercial traveller. On the evening of the 15th of December, I was walking in Crown-street, St. Giles', with a gentleman—I felt, something at my pocket—I turned, and caught the prisoner close to me with my handkerchief in his hand—he dropped it—this is it.
Prisoner. The handkerchief was at my feet, and I picket it up—four or five persons behind me saw me do it. Witness. It is quiet impossible that he could—I felt the twitch, and turned immediately—he begged my pardon.
GUILTY . Aged 15.— Transported for Seven Years.
Fifth Jury, before Mr. Sergeant Arabin.
284. ROBERT HALEY was indicated for stealing on the 2nd of December I vat-stand, value 16s.; 20 pieces of wood, value 6s.; 1 wooden door, and frame, value 4s.; wooden panels, value 2s.6d.; 1 crow-bar, value 1s. 6d.; and I balcony-front, value 20s.; the goods of Joseph Holstead, his master.
had occasion to leave town, I returned on the Sunday following, and received information that property had been stolen from my yard, and that Haley had been seen to take it—I went to his house, and found a cupboard door—I got an officer, and we looked over the premises—I found the vat-stand and some pieces of wood, which had been cut up—the prisoner was not at home—we went again, and found this balcony front, and some other things in the cellar—the prisoner said he knew he had done very wrong, and he hoped I would have mercy on him.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. Were not these things visible to any one? A. No—I had seen this balcony safe about the 29th of November—the prisoner has been nearly twelve months in my service—I always paid him what he asked for—there ware many men employed on my premiese—no brokers jad any thing to do with what is here.
THOMAS BEALL . I know the prosecutor's premises—on the 30th of November, I took the key of them in my own possession, but I still missed property, and on one occasion I saw the prisoner go by my house with a door, which I believe was this one.
Cross-examined. Q. Might it not have been another? A. Yes; but I believe this to be the one—I cannot say when it was
JOSEAH PATRICK . I was employed to seize on Mr. Holstead's premises for 5s., due for rent—I took suffcient to pay me, and left the vat stand, and some other things, which I missed the next day—on the Monday following I was sent for to the station-house, and saw this property, which I had left on the premises.
EDWARD SHAYLER , (police-constable S 114.) I took the prisoner—he first said he had this timber of one Mitchell, who had been discharged, and given 3s. for it—he afterwards told the prosecutor that he had done very wrong, that it was the worst day's work he ever did in his life, and he hoped he would be merciful to him.
Cross-examined. Q. Was it after Mitchell had been about the premises that the prisoner said he bought it of him? A. Yes.
Prisoner. On the day the broker was there, I came about ten or eleven o'clock—I saw the broker give a portion to Mitchell for fire-wood, and Mitchell asked if I had a mind to have some—I said, "Very well"—he then said, "I have got some more rubbish given me, if you like to have it"—I said I would, and he sent it to me—this iron was given to another man, and he left it with me.
(The prisoner received a good character.)
GUILTY. Aged 60.—Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor and Jury. Confined Three Months.
FEANCIS COLTON . I live in the Hackney-road, and am a pawnbroker. On the 15th of December, the prisoner pawned an umbrella—she was there from five to ten minutes—nfter she was gone, my attention was drawn to this by a neighbour, who came in—I then missed a silk waistcoat-piece—there was not more than a yard of it.
EDMEND JULIUS SUTTON . I live in the Kingsland-road. This waistcoat-picec was pledged by the priosner, at our house, between three and four o'clock, with some other articles, for 3s. 6d.,—she said it was her.
own—Mr. Colton came in directly she had gone out——I showed him this, and he pursued, and found her.
Prisoner. I beg for pardon—I am not an old offender.
GUILTY. Aged 41.—Recommended to mercy.— Confined fourteen Days.
NEW COURT.—Friday, December 18, 1835.
Fourth Jury, before Mr. Recorder.
286. WILLIAM TAYLOR was indicted for stealing, on the 5th of December, I ring value 10s.; part of a snap, value 20s.; part of a brooch, value 25s.; the goods of Charles Harris, his master; and JOHN HENRY ABBA was indicted for feloniously receiving the same, well knowing them to have been stolen, against the Statute, &c.
MESSRS. PHILLIPS and CLARKSON conducted the Prosecutin.
CHARLES HARRIS . I am a wholesale jeweller, and live in Nassau-street, Soho, The prisoner Taylor was in my service till within the last few days—he was a setter, but did other work occasionally—Abba was in my service—he worked in the shop, as Taylor did, but not in the same line of business—he ceased to work in the shop about August, but was afterwards, employed to work for me at his own house—he had not access to my property after that—I missed property before be left, and afterwards, and I had suspicion of Taylor, who lodged with Abba, at No, 49, Great Queen-street, Lincoln's-inn-fields—I had given Taylor notice, and he should have left on the Saturday, but he left the Wednesday before—he did not give me any notice of going at the time; he absconded, and that induced me to get a search warrant—I saw a Mr. Amery on Saturday—on Monday last, I went to Abba's premises, and found some duplicates, and among others, one for a gold ring, set with chrysolites—I had not seen if for a length of time.
WILLIAM CRUSH . I am in partnership with Mr. Bromley, a pawnbroker, in Museum-street. I produce a gold ring, set with chrysolites—It was pawned on the 4th of November, by Abba, for 7s., in the name of John West—I had know him for some time by that name—I also produce a gold hand-snap, and a gold serpent brooch—they were pawned on the 5th of December, by Abba, in the name of West, for 2l.
Cross-examined by MR. CHAMBERS. Q. Was it from his pawning things that you knew him in the name of West? A. Yes; I know tradesmen who are obliged to pawn things, very frequently use different names.
HENRY FALL . I am an officer, I went to execute the search-warrant at No. 49, Great Queen-street, Lincoln's-inn-fields, on monday last, about nine o'clock in the morning—Abba opened the door to me—his wife was in bed, and Taylor was in bed—I Learned from Taylor that he lodged there—I found this duplicate in a pocket-book, inn a chest of drawers, in he room in which Abba's wife was in bed—It is for two rings, pawned on the 4th of November, at Mr. Crush's—I went to the pawnbroker's, and they produced this ring as one of those pawned on that occasion—the prosecutor identified it—they also produced this brooch and snap, which had been pawned there, but which we did know of.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. You found Mrs. Abba was in bed? A. I waited till I was informed she was up—I did not see her come out of the bed-room—there was time for her to have brought the pocket-book out of the room.
CHARLES HARRIS . These articales are mine—this snap is in an unfinished state—this ring has been finished, but is now in an unfinished state—two of the stones have dropped out—when I saw it on my premises, it had a flew in it—this brooch is unfinished.
Cross-examined by MR. CHAMBERS. Q. What does it want? A. A box behind, and a tunnell or stem, to make it a brooch—It is an unfinished brooch—It is part of a brooch—this ring has been finished, it is a ring—this is part of a snap only—I have fourteen or fifteen workmen; they all work where these things were kept in drawers—this brooch was made by a Frenchman, now in Paris—they are put into various hands to be finished in—the last hands that this brooch was in were Taylor's, to put the stones in—I can't tell how many brooches of this pattern we have made—I don't know that the workmen make use of the dies to make things for themselves—I never permit them to do it—Abba never made any thing in this way in my shop—but when I was at his premises, I saw something similar to this; but this is my own, there is a particular mark about this which one of my men can speak to more then myself—there is an imperfection in the die, which was particularly noticed—It produced this sort of crack—this is made of very thin gold—this crack might appear in others and precisely in the same place—Taylor had given me notice; he said he was uncomfortable in the shop, but afterwards he expressed a wish to stay—my brother-in-law assists me in my business, and gives out and receives work.
CHARLES JOHN BELL . I am in the employ of Mr. Harris, This chrysolite half-hoop I can swear to as his property—I cannot recollect when I saw it last—I suppose it is from two to five months ago sines I saw it in the prisoner Taylor's drawer—I know it by some grains being off the second collet on one side.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. Can you fix upon the period when you saw it more particularly? A. No; I saw it between July and October in the drawer—I might have taken it out—I took notice of these grains being off it when I saw it in Taylor's hands—I cannot tell when that was—I have seen it in his hand, and in his drawer—I never said I saw it in any one else's drawer—I had access to his drawer, and so had all in the shop—I swear to it—the grain do rub off sometimes, but such a defect as is in this ring is not likely to happen—I have seen unfinished rings and rings without stones in other hands, but not of this description—I saw this very ring in Taylor's hands—throwing down a ring carelessly might knock a grain off, but not half a dozen—there are two stones out of this ring, one at each end.
COURT. Q. Were the stones in it when you saw it? A. No; two stones were out, as they are now—this ring is the same in all respects.
JURY. Q. Was it kept in a drawer with tools, where it would be likely to come in contact with some hard substances? A. Yes; it might.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Q. Then it might have met this injury from the hard substances it with? A. No; I don't think it did.
CHARLES RODMAN . I am in the employ of Mr. Harris. I know this serpent brooch, by certain defects in the tail—I have not the slightest doubt that it belonged to Mr. Harris—I think I saw it on his premises
about August last—I can't tell whether Abba was on the premises after I saw it—this snap is my own work—I finished it in august last—I can't tell when Abba left.
Cross-examined by MR. CHAMBERS. Q. Was the snap your finishing? A. I made it but did not put the stones in—that is Mr. Taylor's work—I made it from a model which I made myself.
NOT GUILTY .
COURT. Q. Had the prisoner to manufacture these rings? A. Yes—I never sold him one—there is nothing to identify this.
NOT GUILTY .
288. CHRISTOPHER MUDIE was indicted for feloniously receiving of an evil-disposed person, on the 1st of November, sundry printed books and pepers, value 35l. 10s., the goods of James Leech Ridgway, and another.
MR. PHILLIPS conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES LEECH RIDGWAY . I am a bookseller and publisher, carrying on business at No.169. piccadilly. I have only one partner—I had a porter named Dennis Holland, in my employment lately—In consequence of information, I got a search-warrant and accompanied by Clements and Avis, the Marlborough-street police-officers, I went to the prisoner's premises, in princes-street, St. James's—I saw the prisoner there—Cements was with me—I told the prisoner I had taken out a search-warrant, in consequence of being informed that there were stolen books of ours in his possession—I think I asked him if he had purchased any books with our names on the title-page—he sad he had—I then asked him if he had any of them—he said he hod—I requested him to produce them—he then took two or three volumes off the floor in a corner of the shop, from under some others, which I examined, and stated that I be lived them to be part of the property stolen—I inquired if he had no more—he them produced two or three others—I inquired of he had no more—he began to look about the shop, and produced some others—he then assured me that he had no more on the premises—we went up stairs and searched, but found no others—do not remember the date of this visit, but it was last Saturday three weeks, or fortnight—on the Monday following we of a stranger, without making any inquiries—he stated that he had not—that he had purchased them of Dennis Holland, who said he was a binder, in our employ, and that we had paid him with these books, for his labour, in lieu of money—I then said it was an improbable story, and we went to the police-office—we paid a second visit on Monday—the first person we saw was peter Mudie—"Sweet's flower Garden" was then produced, I belive seventy-six numbers of it—and tied up in the same parcel, were found ten numbers of the "Botanical Register"—on the first visit we found one set of "Canning's speeches" in boards, perfectly new, and uncut—the selling prices of them is 3s. 12s. the six volumes—we are the publishers—the prisoner said he paid Holland 8s. for "Sweet's Hortus
Britannica"—the selling price of it is 1l.1s.; and 6s. for "Sweet's Manual," the selling price is 16s., the trade price 12s.—"The Lady's Botany" there are two editions of, coloured and uncoloured, the uncoloured is 16s., and he said hue gave 6s. for it—the coloured sells for 25s. but I do not think we found any coloured there—on the Monday we found eighty-eight numbers of the "Botanical Registers, "and other botanical works—the selling price of all these numbers is 14s.—none of these books were second-hand—the boarded books were all an cat, the others are necessarily cut, to introduce the plates—we never under-stell our work.
Cross-examined by MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. You speak of the custom and practice of your own house, I suppose you served your time there, and never lived in any other employment? A. I served my time with Mr. Simmons, in Paternoster-row, and then went into partnership with my brother—It is a very common thing for books to be sold at a third, fourth, or fifth of their published price—I have heard that persons sell their books in the market under cost price, if they want money—books do get into the market at very low prices, from particular publishers—I know Lord Orford's works, but we never dealt in them—we are not in the line of business to know the prices of books that are published by other house—Canning's Speeches, "Erskine's Speeches," and "Fox's Speeches, "were our publishing in conjunction with Longman—I do not know that the prices of canning's and Erskine's are very low in the market—"Fox's Speeches are very high, they bear a premium—I went to Mudie's house with an officer, every thing that was found was in the shop, publicly—I mentioned the search-warrant the moment I went in—the prisoner produced all these books to me—we found nothing close of ours—It is very common to find books on the floor, in sheets; but not otherwise—on Monday I saw Peter Mudie, and found some more books tied up in a parcel—there was no direction on them—they were on the table—If they had any desire to get rid of them, they had all the time from Saturday till Monday—It was from the prisoner that I learned that he had purchased them from Dennis Holland—we had before taxed Holland with being, and he ran away without his coat hat, out of the back door.
JURY. Q. Have you been in the habit of sending any of these books to public auctions? A. Never, in any instance.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. But you know it is very common for booksellers to do so? A. Yes—the remains of editions are generally sold so, but not whole editions—the prisoner went with Avis to show where Dennis Holland's lodgings were.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Did he point out Holland's lodging? A. He said he did not know the exact house. but he thought he could point it out—he did not point out the house—he pointed out the next, or the next but one; and by inquiry, we found where he did live—I had inquired of the prisoner before at the police-office, where Holland lived, and he said he did not know; but he had seen him get out of a cabriolet, and go into a house in King-street; that was the only reason he gave for knowing where he lived—the prisoner's shop is a quarter of a mile from our's—we can go there in seven or eight minutes.
COURT. Q. Is it your practice to keep the bocks you have, and take the chance of the market? A. Yes—some booksellers buy up the whole of an edition, and speculate in them.
concerning this case of Mudie's—these are what we found on Saturday, and those were found on Monday.
COURT to Mr. RIDGWAY. Q. What appearance had Mudie's shop? A. It is what is called an old book-shop, where they deal almost exclusively in second-hand books, or books of low price—It has an open window.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. When was the "Lady's Botany" published? A. This year, but it has no date to it.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Had you actually published all the numbers of the "Botanical Register?" A. Yes—the plates are all coloured.
Cross-examined. Q. This one is "Scripture Geography," do you deal much in them? A. No, we do not.
COURT. Q. You have spoken of the reduced price at which many works are sold, does not that particularly apply to works with evenings in them? A. I think it does.
DENNIS HOLLAND . I was in the employ of Messrs. Ridgway. I am now a prisoner in Newgate. I knew the prisoner before I went into Mr. Ridgway's employ—the first time had spoken to him was about January last, and I went into Mr. Ridgway's employ about nine months ago—I had seen and spoken to him about two months before, in princes-street, where his shop is—he spoke to me—I had a book with me, as I was passing his door, and he asked what that was I had—I told him it was "Dr. Lindley's Lady's coloured Botany"—he asked if it was for sale—I said, "No"—he said, "Could You get me one?"—I said I would try—I had seen him before, when I had some waste paper; he asked what I had—I said, "cancelled pages"—he said, "If they are books I can give you a good price for them"—I had been about seven months in Messrs. Right-Ways'Employ—when I went past with the book—he asked what I had go and the price—I said, "12s., "—he said no, he would give me 10s—I said I would not take 10s—he said, "You bring me the book, I dare say we shall style about the price"—so I brought him the book; I think the same day, late in the evening, to the next morning—he gave me 11s. and asked if I could bring him a plain one—the one I sold was coloured—anyone who saw it could she that it was published by Ridgway, and the price was marked on the back—I got him the plain one about the next day, and when I went he asked if I had got any more, as he had a customer that wanted one of each, and asked me how soon I could get him them—I said I did not know, but I would endeavour to get him one of each as soon as possible, which I did—he bought them of me, out gave me a small price, in comparison with what they were published at; and more than that, he did not pay me all the amount at once—he asked if I could get him any speeches—he named Canning's and Erskine's—Fox and Windham's speeches—he said they were very valuable books, "Lindley's Botanical works, "the 20 vols., the old series, and the new—and the "Sweet's flower Garden"—I brought him some of the peaches in quires—he gave 29s. for canning's Speeches, inn quires; 18s. for Erskine's, in quires; and 30s. for Canning's, in boards—that was one shilling more that the sheets—he did not pay all at once, but kept a running account—I should think I have visited his shop a hundred times and move—I took him books a few days before I ran away—I have had dealings with him for about eight months, and visited his shop sometimes three times a day—I used not to go in, because he stood at the door and stopped me—I sold him books to the amount of about 20s.; but I used to spend
a good deal that in brandy an water with him—he never asked me what trade or business I was—he asked how I got the books—I had been with him three or four times before he asked that—he asked me if I had got them in part payment, for wages—I said, "No, "that was all that passed then—the second time that I brought him Canning's speeches, he asked how I came by them—I told him I dare say he knew very well—"Yes," said he, "I partly guess how you came by them, or eles you would not be able to sell them at this price"—I remember taking him seventy-five numbers of "Sweet's Flower Garden"—they were published by Messrs. Ridgway—the prisoner never paid me for them—his brother was there when I took them—I told peter there were seventy-five numbers his brother wanted—we had bargained about them before I brought them—the prisoner had asked me to bring him a number to show him, as he had got a customer for them—I took him one—he said he had got a customer coming for them, but he could not give more than 4s. 5s. for them—each number was 6s.—It was in consequence of what he said that I took the seventy-five numbers—I brought him twelve numbers of "The Botanical Register"—he paid me 15s. at it time—he did not pay me any more then—about three days after he paid me a sovereign—I think it was off the seventy-five numbers of the "Sweet"—I am sure it was him, and not his brothers paid me—we used to drink brandy and water at the public-house, at the corner of Little Pulteney-street facing wardour-street—I have drank with him half a dozen times and more—we sometimes drank three glassed, sometimes one, cost 8d. a glass—If I went to the house, they would ask me to stand a glass of brandy and water, and they would give me so much.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. Have you ever said a syllable about drinking brandy and water with the prisoner till this moment? A. Yes—I did not state is to the Magistrate—I did to the attorney for the prosecution—I don't know that I said I spent a great part of the money in brandy and water—I swear I mentioned that I drank brandyu and water about eight times—It might have been more—Jolly was with me—I first took the books about October—I was at ken into custody Yesterday fortnight, I think—I did not gives an account of every thing when I first heard if this affair—my master asked me about the deficiencies, but I was frightened, and did not give an account then—I did afterwards—I had not heard that Mudie had told the prosecutor where the books had come from, till I was in custody—I was taken on this charged, and I stated about Mudie the same night—I had seen a statement of Mudie's in the newspaper, but I had intended to state it if I had not seen that—I went more than a hundred times to Mudie's—I used not to go in, because he stood at the door when I went by to dinner—I went in sometimes—I did not with the "Lady's Botany"—part of these transactions took place in the street—I was in the employ of Mr. Jones, a bookbinder, in January—I(ran away from the prosecuttor's, but I intended to come the next morning and give myself up to Mr. Ridgway—I went without my coat and hat, I might have had times to put them on.
COURT. Q. How long did you live with Mr. Jones, as a bookbinder? A. About two Years and a half or three Years—I was a bookbinder when I first saw the prisoner—I then had 8s. a week and my board—Mr. Jones did not sell books—he only put them in boards and cloth—I received books from him to deliver to Mr. Ridgway every morning—I did not tell the prisoner at that time that I was a bookbinder—He never knew I was a bookbinder; if he represented me as one, it was a complete guess—I had
never told so, and he never saw me at Mr. Jones's—he might have seen me carrying bags of books to Mr. Churchill's, who lived at the corner of Gerrard-street—I had 18s. a week at Mr. Ridgway's—some of the books which I stole, and took to the prisoner, were kept in the shop, and some in the warehouse—there was no one present when we made these bargains—the prisoner had a little boy, but he was outside the shop—we generally made our bargains inside—I used to go in, and ask him for the money he owed me—his brother was there sometimes—I never gave the prisoner any account of my employment, or where I got the books—I might have said that I could put a book in boards better than one I saw—I could not bind a book—I never told him I was porter to Mr. Ridgway, or how I got my living.
JURY. Q. Were you ever told that you should be kindly treated if you came forward to give evidence against the prisoner? was such a thing even named to you? A. No, Sir.
Prisoner's Defence. From the price I gave for the books I had no ides that they were stolen—had he told me that he was in the prosecutor's employ, I should not have bought them—I sold them at a very moderate profit to other booksellers—some gentlemen are in court who purchased some of them.
THOMAS MASON . I am a bookseller, and live in Holborn—I have been in business thirty years. I buy books, and sell them again—I buy new and second-hand books—I have known large collections of the same book to be sold in the trade, in what is called a turn-out, and there are what are called trade sales—these books are often sold at third or a fourth part of their price—Lord Orford's works were published at 16l., and a very good copy ran now be got for 4l. and other works proportionably low—I saw this book, which was published at 1l. 16s., marked 12s. at a sale at Kent's—I never buy any thing in my shop myself—I should not be surprised at a publisher known the prisoner some years—he has borne a very fair and respectable character.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Do you know a person of the name of Jolly? A. I do; I had a parcel of Mr. Ridgway's books which I bought of Jolly—they were given up to Mr. Ridgway—books which have been published at high prices are undersold at sales, and in various ways, and by private contract also; if a gentleman came in, and offered me a lot or separate volumes, I should buy them—If a stranger were to come twenty or thirty times with any publication of Mr. Ridgway's I should not buy them.
COURT. Q. By a turn-out I understand you to mean that when a publisher finds a work heavy he sells them in a lot? A. Yes; and those books would be sold at a very low price; we should not get them cheaper at the publisher's—if the book had become ever so common, they are sure to charge the full price for their own works—If a person brought new, clean, and uncut works for sale, it would not lead me to suppose that he was connected with the publisher, and by going to the publisher's, I should not get it at a depressed price.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Have you known gentlemen to sell their books in sheets? A. No; not unless it was the author—If a person came to me time after time with new and uncut publications, if he told me he was in the employ of the publisher, I should feel it my duty to go to the author.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. Suppose he had not told you he was connected with the publisher's; should you think it your duty to go to him? A. No;
if he sent a porter of boy we should buy them, if we knew shod they came from.
(Eighteen witnesses gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY. Aged 19.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury and Prosecutor.— Confined Six Months.
288. ROBERT JOLLY was indicted for feloniously receiving, on the 14th of November, sundry books and pamphlet, value 67l. 10s., the goods of James Leech Ridgway and another, well knowing the same to have been feloniously stolen.
MR. PHILLIPS conducted he Prosecution.
DENNIS HOLLAND . I am a prisoner in Newagate, on a charge of stealing from Mr. Ridgway. I was in his employ—I first saw the prisoner at Mudie's—I went with him and Mudie to the public-house in Princes-street—we had some brandy and water, and while Mudie stopped and talked to a young woman in the bar, Jolly asked me to give him a turn, and not take all the books to Mr. Mudie—he said he would deat as fairly as Mr. Mudie did—I sold him the "Lady's Botany"—I afterwards received. a massage, and saw the prisoner again—he asked me what books I had. and what I could him—he called over "Scanning's Speeches," "Erskine's Speeches," "Dr. Lindley's Fossil Flora," and several others—he said if I could get them he would call, and look at them at my lodging in King-street, Soho—he came there one Sunday morning about twelve o'clock—I have only two rooms—my wife saw him—I sold him all the books named in the indictment—he said I had better make a bill of them in pencil, which I did, and they came to 25l. 16s.—he said he would give me 24l. for them—he gave they a sovereign, and side that would secure the bargain—he then took away with him eleven numbers of the "Arboretum"—he sent for me on the Monday, and sold he was very sorry that he could not come to fetch away the books then, but he would on Tuesday—he gave me three more sovereigns at his door—we went to the public-house, and had a glass of brandy and water—he came a second time to my lodging, and fetched away the books and paid me the other 20l—he took away the books in a large bag, about half paid eight o'clock at night—It was in Novembers, and it was dark—he told me on one occasion that he meant to sane them to York, where they would never he heard of by Mr. Ridgway—he said there was a person stole two hundred and fifty copies of "Cobbett's Grammar, "and sold them to a gentleman in Holborn—that Mr. Cobbett went to that gentleman, and asked if he had two hundred and fifty of his works, and he said, "Yes, "and that he had bought them, and Mr. Cobbett walked away, and could do no more—he said my books would be as safe as the bank—he asked me to get some more—he wanted five sets of "Erskine's Speeches," and five sets of "Canning's speeches, "and twenty volumes if the" Botanical Register, "and the "Lady's Botany"—all the books I sold him were publications of Mr. Ridgway's.
Cross-examined by MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. What day was it you and the brandy and water him in the public-house? A. I never kept any account of it—It was three of four days before he came to me on the Sunday—he might know who I was, but he did not know where I worked—he pulled out a list of books, and asked me to get them for him—I stole the books he mentioned—he came on the Sunday, took away eleven books, and paid me a sovereign as carnest—he came to my lodging once more on the Tuesday evening following—he stopped there about two hours on the Sunday—he looked over the books, and saw the prices they were market—he took some brandy and water, and dinner too—my lodging is at No.23,
King-street, up one pair of stairs—I rent it at 4s. 6d. a week, unfurnished—I have no children—my room is not ornamented with pictures hung against the well—there nay be one or two engravings—he said he should like to come to see my lodgings, and he came on Sunday morning, as he said he had some money to purchase, and he should have times to look over them
JANE HOLLAND . I am the witness's wife. I remember the prisoner coming to our lodging, in king-street, one sunday—I saw him again on the Tuesday, between eight and nine o'clock at night—he took away books in a bag.
Cross-examined by MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. You never saw him before that Sunday? A. No; nor after that Tuesday—I saw him on the Monday in Princes-street—the books had been in my lodgings a week, I suppose, before he came on the Sunday.
JAMES LEECH RIDGWAY . I have one partner, and am a bookseller. I went to Messrs. Grinstone and Havers's auction-rooms, in High Holborn, and found there 12 volumes, and 115 numbers—these are them—they were readily given up when we went with a warrant—In consequence of further information, we went on the Wednesday to the prisoner Jolly's house—he was not at home—a little after this we received a letter, purporting to come from him, and the next day Jolly called at our shop; when he informed me his name was jolly—I said, "I suppose you have come with respect to the parcel of books that were sold to Messrs. Mason, of Holborn, for 31l."—he said he had—he apologized for not having called before, saying his legal adviser could not accompany him—he said he went to a person's lodging in King-street, and bought them—he said that he had given 24l. for them, which, he added, he considered a fair price I said we should differ on that subject—I asked if he had ever purchased any other books of the same character—he said no, he had never bought more than 2l. or 3l. worth over the counter—I repeated the question—he then said he had bought others, and named "Lindley's Botany"—(in consequence of this business, I went to Holland's lodgings—It is a back room, on the first floor—there is no appearance of any trade whatever being carried on)—the selling price of the books that he gave 24l. for, is 65l.,—the fair trade price would be 50l—this is a copy of "Erskine's Speeches," which I never sold in this from—we are never ib the ahbit of underselling our stock, if it should lay upon our hands—the selling price of this large paper copy is 3l. 15s., but it naver sold, as the price of the smaller is 2s. 10s.,
Cross-examined by MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. You say you ha not issued any of Mr. Erskine's Speeches? A.. Not in the larg paper size—I had not communicated that to Jolly—I do not know that gentleman and others possessed do books, sell them at their own lodgings—every thing the prisoner told me was true—It is not at all unusual for some books to be sold at about half the trade price in the market.
Prisoner. On the very day Mr. Ridgway called on me, I went to his house, and stated what I knew. Witness. I cannot say that I knew that—he might have done it, because he came at the time he appointed.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Are these books a drug in your shop? A. Not at all—I never sold under value.
THOMAS MASON . I am a bookseller, and live at No.158, High Holborn. I was in treaty with the prisoner for some books—I received a letter from him—this is it—I agreed to purchase that lot for 31l.—Canning's speeches in quires, and Erskine's in quires and boarded, and other books—I sold them for 36l. about two days after.
COURT. Q. To whom did you sell them? A. To Messrs. Cooper, at my own house. (Letter read)—"Addressed to Mr. Thomas Mason, bookseller, High Holborn. Dear Sir,—The following is a correct list of the books to be disposed of, and on the other side are what I want; if perfectly convenient, I should like to know to-night; "Canning's Speeches" four sets, quires, &c., &c., I belive this to be a correct list of them; the published price is about 70l., and the chief are full-priced—I have run over them, and think them cheap at 34l.; you of course are the best judge. ROBERT JOLLY."
THOMAS MASON re-examined. I only gave 31l. for them—I would not have given one shilling more if I had not had them—when I went to look at them, there ere those which I have put down in pencil more than what he had mentioned.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. You bought them for 31l. to sell again? A. did—I sold them for 36l. in two days after, to Mr. Cooper, a second-hand bookseller, to make a profit of them.
Cross-examined by MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. Would you have given 31l. for these books unless you had orders for them, or known where you could dispose of them? A. No; I and not orders for them, but when I received an account of the books, I spoke to one or two in the trade—I should say it was a very small profit in an outlay of 31l. to clear 5l.—twenty-five percent. is allowed by the publishers to any person in the trade that buys them—at the trade sales we get them at any price.
GEORGE COOPER . I am a bookseller, and live at No. 6, Bull-and-Mouth-street. I bought a parcel of books from Mr. Mason, jointly with my brother, to sell again, and gave 36l. High Holborn, to sell by auction Messrs. Grinstone and Havers, No.306, High Holborn, to sell by auction—I expected to make a profit of course—It is my custom, to attend the auctions, to see that my books do not go without a profit—I sent some to Mr. Hodge's auction rooms, at the corner of chancery-lane, Fleet-street—before I got this of books from Mr. Mason, I had the first series of the "Botanical Register, "which is thirteen calumets, I belive about ten number in a volume—my reason for buying them was. because the very first number I got from Mr. Mason followed the last number I had—I commended at the 145th number, that work was completed then, to the very last number.
Cross-examined by MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. Then you bought this to complete your set? A. Yes, exactly; I had the first thirteen volumes, which I bought in boards, and what Meson had to sell was the continuation of what I wanted of Edwards by Lindley.
COURT. Q. Who published the first work? A. I belived the same publishers—I had had the others, perhaps a month or six weeks—I bought them in Worcester, of a bookseller—I knew the set was to he had—It was purely accidental that Mr. Mason met my brother, and told him of it.
MR. ADOLTHUS Q. Is it within your knowledge that any persons have Edwards, and would be very glad to get Lindley's? A. Yes; it is very common to send books to sales—persons go there and bid for their own works, or five the auctioner a particular commission—when I sell by auction I make a calculation of a remunerating profit; but not so large a profit as if sold over the counter.
COURT. Q. Whom did you buy the first of? A. It was bought by my elder brother, I belive of Richardson, at Derby, I made a mistake in saying Worcester—he bought it as a cheap book.
works, the offer of which is contained in this letter—I know nothing of them—he did not know whether they would be acceptable or disposable in my hands—It was an accident—It was merely a lot I thought I could dispose of—I am a buyer of any kind of property—I mentioned to Mr. Cooper that I had these books the day I received the letter—I met him at a sale three or four hours afterward—I did not know that he had the first numbers—I had spoken to another gentleman first—he declined them, I then spoke to cooper—I said he might have the first offer, and he purchased them.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. They were sent in the ordinary way of business with other things? A. Yes; with other things—It is not general for persons to send their books to sale to make a profit—Coopers are peculiarly in that way, going about the country collection books and sending them to sales—they probably pick up books very cheap in the country.
COURT to MR. RIDGWAY. Q. Did the prisoner say any thing at all beyond his having bought them at the house in King-street? A. He said if he had done any wrong, he was responsible for it—he said he had gone to the house to buy the books, as he never bought things at his own house—buying books by sale and contract is sometimes done, I belive, but never by me.
DENNIS HOLLAND re-examined. I never at any time told the prisoner who I was, or what means I had of getting the books—he did not ask me—he had seen me at Mudie's—I do not know what led him to say he should send the books to York—I had not repressed any apprehension about their being sold in London, nor said or done any thing to lead him to make our, that if any one came in they should not see them—I do not knew why—I had not remarked that there was any danger in their being seen—I had had the books two three days before he saw them—I had received the list of what he would want, perhaps a week before—I and it at Jolly's shop.
Prisoner. Will he produce the list I gave him? Witness. No; you took it away again on the sunday morning—you said, "I will keep this list."
THOMAS MASON re-examined. This letter has no date to it—I received it about the 26th of November—I believe Messrs. Ridgways were the publishers of all the books I purchased—there are some standard novels mentioned in the letter, which he wanted in exchange for his books—I had not got them, but I thought I might get them of my father.
Prisoner's Defence. I deny part of the evidence of Holland—I certainly went one Sunday morning expressly at his own wish, to oblige him—I declined buying them at my shop—I was shown into a back room, not badly furnished. but in a way that gave me a sufficient idea that he was respectable—the books were produced, and I offered 25l. 16s. for them—the house of Messrs. Ridgway is respectable, but not so night as many are in the trade—I have an Encyclopaedia which I bought for 3s. 10s. of a gentelman,
and I have another book published at 6l. 6s., which I have for sale for 2l. 2s.—I did not consider that this was a great reduction in the price of these books—I left a sovereign, and submitted them to Mason; and in my letter I put down 34l.—he would not give me more than 31l., and when I found they would suit him, and not before, I went and got them—I consider I gave Holland a fair price, and Mason gave me as much as any person would have done, and Mr. Cooper will state that he gave 5l. too much, unless it were to complete his series—the dearest book I had was the botanical book—that very book, three or four days prior, was sold compete, the whole twenty volumes, part of it beautifully bound, and the rest as good as new, for 25l.; and for the eight volumes not complete, I gave 8l.—the moment I hared of it, I went to Mr. Ridgway, and said I heard that he had lost some books, and I thought I had bought some—I left my card, and said they might see my stock-book, and I would explain very thing—I do to feel ashamed of what I have done—Ridgways are higher in the trade, but not more respectable than I am—I never had a charge brought againstme—I paid Holland the money, thought I borrowed part of it—he stated that I dined with them—I did not, and they ought to have proved what I had for dinner, and what time I left—he says that I solicited him to bring me the books, and not let Mudie have all of them—I said so little to him, that I did not know him again, when he came.
WILLIAM BROWN . I am a bookseller, and live in Russell-court, Drury-lane. I know the prisoner well—I was at his shop when Holland came there; and by the conduct of Mr. Jolly, I should day, that Holland was a person whom he had not before known, as he seemed to speak of him as a person not likely to buy—Holland came in, and looked about at the books in the shop, and Mr. Jolly kept indicating to me, that he was not a person who would buy, he thought—Holland said, "Have you such a book on botany?" and Jolly said, "I have not"—Holland then took a book from his pocket and said, "Is this of any use to you?"—Jolly looked at it, and said, "What is the price?"—he said 7s.—I think he said, "Is it your own property?"—hr said, "Certainly"—he took the money from his pocket and gave it him, and I left the shop—I have frequently bought books in my shop—If I had a medical book to sell, I should take it to a medical bookseller; and if I had a law-book, I should take it to a law-bookseller—I have known the prisoner twelve months—he has been a very honest, sober, industrious character.
MR. PHILLIPS. Q. How long have you been in the trade yourself. A. I have only kept a shop about a fortnight—I do not know Mr. Mason—I read in the newspapers, that Jolly was taken to the police-office on this business—when Holland came to his shop, he did not speak to any one, but kept looking at the books—Jolly seemed to intimate that he was not a person likely to buy—Holland walked about, and took books out, and put them in again—he was in the shop nearly ten minuets—he appeared like a mechanic—the took he produced was a new one—I do not remember the title of it—It escaped my ear—I did not have the book in my hand—I do not know whether it was cut—I should say it was bound in cloth—I think it was red, but I cannot say—Mr. Jolly came to me afterwards an said, "I shall want you—you recollect a man coming to run and offering a book for sale—you recollect the manner in which I behaved to him, and I wish you to come and state it"—I do not know Mr. Jolly's attorney—I have my subpœoena here—my brother gave it to me—there was no other person in Jolly's shop at that time—It is five or six
weeks ago—Holland had a blue frock on, I think—he said nothing about where he lived—there was no mention about king-street—Mudie and Jolly are acquainted—they live about two hundred yards from one another.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. Is it at all uncommon in a bookseller's shop for a stranger to come in? A. No.—the edges of the book he sold appeared white to me—I saw it was a book—that was all the notice I took of it.
COURT. Q. Are you sure that the man was Holland? A. Yes—I saw him come into the shop.
(Eight witnesses gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY. Aged 25.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. Confined Six Months.
OLD COURT. Friday, December 18th, 1835.
Third Jury, before Mr. Justice Littledale.
289. ROBERT BALLS, THOMAS HARRIS , and MARCUS WARSCHAUER, alias Marcus warsower, alias Mordecai Moses, were indicated for that they, on the 1st of August, without the authority of a certain foreign Prince, (i. e.)of Nicolas, then being King of Poland, feloniously did engrave and make, upon two several plates, a certain promissory note, for payment of money of a certain foreign Prince, (i. e.) of the said Nicolas, (which said note, in the polish language, was set out in the indictnotes with a translation thereof,) against the Statute, &c,—35 other COUNTS, varying the description of the forged instrument—36 other COUNTS, the same, only for using the said plates, instead of engraving them.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL, MESSRS. PLATT, ADOLPHUS, JUN. and BORKIN, conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES LABON . I am an engraver, and live in Fann-street, Goswell-street. I know the prisoner Balls—I first knew him about the 16th of September, 1834—he applied to me to know the price per 1000 of impresssions from a plate, which he brought with him—I told him what they would cost—he did not tell me what they were—he went away, haring heard my estimate on one plate—he returned the same day, and brought me a little plate—I do not remember what letters were engraved on to—I should know it again if I saw it—(Ruthven here produce some plates)—this is the plate he brought me first, and this is the smiler one, which he brought afterwards, with two little ovals for embossing—5000 impressions were taken from one—as near as I could imagine, six or seven trails were taken off at first—I belive six or seven were taken also from the smaller plate; and the small plate made a mark at the back, which was an objecttion made by the party who brought it, and he asked me how it could be remedied—I said by having a back plate of the size of the front plate—Balls asked me what it would come to—I said the letter part would come to about half-a-crown—I specified that I could not do the whole of it myself it rested with an ornamental engraver, likewise the machiner to do the ground-work of it—he went with me to Mr. Froman, who is my ornsmental
engraver, who agreed to do it—my letters were first done—I outlined the letters, and then took the plate to Forman, who laid the ground, and Mr. Bacon, with his machine, made the ground—I applied to Forman for it afterwards, and received it, and paid him for it—I had no occasion to do any thing else to the plate—this is the plate I had to do, with the exception of this fac-simile—there is a name engraved above it, which I knew nothing for the reverse—the front plate while this was being prepared for the reverse—the front plate never went to Forman's—the paper was brought to me by Balls—when there were 500 worked from the front was brought to me have 500 finished from the back—he wished 5000 altogather—I completed them 500 at a time—500 front, then 500 beck—he took them away 500 at a time—on the reverse plate there is the autograph of a signature—that was not on the impressions which I took.
Q. Could you what these engravings were for? A. He called them "Mining tickets"—I never asked the least explanation, but that is what he termed them—I did not not understand hem, not being able to read them—on one occasion he brought two oval pieces of copper—they were produced with the backing plate, the first say I saw him—the ovals were to be used to make an emboss on the blue paper, upon which they were impressed—I was paid for them as I delivered them—I received half-a-crown for the backing plate—I was paid 30s. per 1000 for the impressions—taking 5000, they were 28s. per 1000—Balls came to my house to make an alteration, in the course of my taking off the impressions—I cannot say how many had been taken off at the time as I kept no account—I belive I altered the plate twice—the figures—(looking at a plate) here are my marks, made by the hammer and my anvil—when I erased the front, I had to knock the surface up, and replace it, making a dent in the front—he which to have the number altered, but assigned no reason to me.
Q. Look at that plate; can you form a judgment whether it has been used since you parted with it? A. There are two figures on the plate which I have naver seen before—they are two nought—a plate wears wonderfully in taking impressions—this plate has been used a great deal since I parted with it—I am positive of that, and the backing plate also.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON Q. Point out the two noughts? A. These two have ben done from one punch, one on one side and one on the other—I was carrying on my business at No.21, Fann-street, Cripplegate, at this times—I have been a housekeeper twenty-three years—I keep a shop for my convenience, but make no show, working for the trade—my shop is in the same place as it was ten—the moment the street door is open you come into the shop, smiler to other house—the two doors open at the same time—the street door and the ther door is about a quarter of a yard apart—If one door opens the other opens also—where the presses are, you can get in in a moment—the greatest stranger can walk in and see what is going on—I work up stairs, not in the shop—my two preses and my Journeymen are in the shop—I had a journeyman at this—the one I had then I have got still—his name is George one—at that time I had but one am—I sometimes have two, sometimes one—he was present, and saw this plate come in—this was the first time I had seen Balls, to my knowledge.
Q. On your oath, had you not purchased a door-plate of balls, some time before? A. I never knew the man—I bought a door-plate, but wether of Mr. Balls, I do not knew—I presume it might be about twelve
months prior, but I did not know the man—I gave 2s. 6d. for it—It was engraved on a brass plate—I did not know the man who sold to to me—It was an old door plate, a rag shop would have given no more for it than the value of the metal—I do not deal in plates, but work on them—If an old plate is offered me, and I can make it of use, I buy it—I gave 6d. pound for it—I was never in custody in my life—I have never been in custody on this charge.
Q. How did the polish authorities find you out? A. I never inquired of them—I have got to elucidate that—Mr. Ruthven called on me one Monday morning—It may be a month ago—they brought me nothing—they came to ask em questions—that was the first time I saw any body on this subject—I am not skilled in languages—I cannot read a word of this engraving—I have not known Balls five or six tears—I never engraved any mining tickets, nor prepared any thing of this kind before—my business is an engraver on copper in the writing department—all descriptions of writing—German text, old English, or any thing, but nothing or namental—I engrave door plates at times, and such as silver spoons' cyphers, the latter department is all comprised in once—nothing of that kind is difficult to me—I do not require any stock on my premises—I never work without I have orders, and I keep no stock—It is not worth my while—I keep books for the purpose of entering the orders, of parties to whom I give credit—I have a great many persons, of all descriptions, apply in the trade, I belive, ever does.
Q. Have you any book in which you entered the order you received from the prisoner? A. I knew nothing of him at the time, neither his name or place of residence—he brought the plate engraved to me, and I made the alteration by his desire—the 500he took away he paid me for—he was a stranger to me—when I take the money I do not make entries—I did not enter this—I belive I keep a regular system of books, like other tradesmen—have a day-book, and half-years book, to enter up the account of those who employ me—I enter in my day-book daily orders from my regular standard customers—I seldom of ever enter occasional orders—made no entry at all of this.
MR. PLATT. Q. Ruthven called on you, with Mr. Saltzmaun, one morning? A. Yes; they produced the small backing plate, two little oval pieces, and the front plate—I know the whole of these plates again, but I had not worked above four prints from the narrow banking plate—they were precisely the same things as are now produced.
GEORGE JONES . I am in the employ of Mr. Labon, and was so in the latter part of last tear—I remember striking off impressions from this plate (looking at it)—It was between the 12th and 20th of September, last year—these are the plates from which I took the impressions—I did it for Mr. Labon, and he did it for Mr. Balls—I saw Balls several times while it was going on—It was the prisoner—I belive he came to see how the work was going on—I cannot recollect any conversation—he came to show how the two little pierces of metal were to be laid on the blue paper—he saw the plates at those times, to show me how they were to be worked—I stuck off 5000—I do not recollect any alteration being made, while they were being struck off—I recollect some figures on the plate, and I noticed some little difference in the figures several times—that alteration was made while I was away.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Your master did not let you see him make the alteration? A. No.
MR. LABON re-examined. It took about ten minutes to make the alteration in the figures.
----FORMAN. I am an ornamental engraver, and live at 42, Fetter-lane. I know Mr. Labon—I remember his coming to me last year about an engraving—I have it entered in my book, and have a copy of it here—It is dated the 12th of September, 1834—Balls was with him—they brought a plate with letters outlined—this is the plate they brought—Labon said he wished me to take the plate in hand to get it machined, which is the waving part, done by engine-turning—I told him I was very busy, and would rather they would take it to a machine engraver, and get it done—I named Mr. Bacon, and recommended them to go to him—Labon said they would rather I would take it to Mr. Bacon, as they were not acquainted with him, and possibly he would do it sooner for me than them, as they wanted it in a hurry—I allowed the pate to be left with me, and got it done—I did not understand the language in which it was engraved—I inquired about it, and Labon said they were foreign labels—I pressed them to let me know particularly what it was for, and Labon said they were for mining tickets.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Labon knew very well that you were an ornamental engraver, and not an engine engraver? A. Yes; mine is quite a different part of the trade—Balls was with him.
COURT. Q. He brought the plate to you to be done partly in ornamental engraving? A. Yes; the preparation was to be done by myself.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. The part you could not do yourself you got Bacon to do for you? A. Yes, I did.
ESENEZER BACON . I am an engine turner. I recollect Mr. Forman coming to me in September, 1834—I have an entry of it, made by myself—It is, "13th September, 1834"—he brought me a plate with a small tablet on it—this is the plate (looking at it)—It had the letters outlined on it when he brought it to em—I did this wave line on it as back ground to the letters, and returned it to Mr. Forman—he is the only person I saw about it.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. You keep books, and enter all your work? A. Yes.
GEORGE RUTHVEN . I am an officer. I took the prisoner into custody—I took Harris and Ball, at the star coffee-house, in Crown-street, Finsbury, on the 9th of November, in the first-floor front room—Is was a public-room, where the customers might go—they into the room before me—I found them there—I sat at a different table to them—when I took my seat at the table I observed Balls showing some brass prices to two persons—when I first' went in, before I sat down I saw a pocketbook on the table—he was showing the brass pieces to Harris and Flaum—after sitting there about ten minutes Balls got up to go away—I stopped him Just against the door, and took him into custody—I searched him, and found on him three pieces of brass, and the pocket-book which I had seen or the table, containing a number of papers—I have the pocket-book here with its contents—It contains the same papers as it did then but is has some others that I will separate from them—It now contains all the papers it did then—I took Harris into custody—I did not search him—Fletcher did—Balls wanted to know what I was doing—I said I was an officers, and I should search him—I went to his residence, No.18, Ironmonger-street, St. Luke's—he lived on the first on the first floor—I searched that apartment,
and found in a portmanteau the key of which I took from Malls (and which opened it,) this tin box, with these blue papers in it, and in this card case, a circular impression—I did not know Harri's lodging at that time—I heard where it was afterwards—I belive from himself's and also from Mr. Salesman—It was in Sadler's-half-court, No.5, I belive—I searched, and there found these impressions at the bottom of a number of duplicates, wrapped up among other papers in a cupboard by the bed side, under some linen—I have examined the plates which I produced, against one of these prices of paper, and they agree with it, except that the numbers differ—I found nothing else at Harris's—I afterwards took Moses into custody, on the same day, at the Strand coffee-house, in the Strand side of Temple-bar—I found him in the room, when I went in he—was sitting by himself in the coffee-room—Mr. Saltzmaun, and Fletcher were with me—I saw mosses sitting in a box with a parcel on the table before him—I went towards him, and he removed the parcel further on the table, towards the side of the room—I put my hand upon it, and got possession of it—I have it here—It contained the three plates I have produced, 104 notes, and a piece of board—I have compared, the three plates which were put into Labon's hand with the impressions I found on Moses—I have no doubt they are impressions taken from the plates, but the numbers very, and two parcels of the notes have a different signature at the back—some are without any signature at all, and some without numbers—I have compared the two pieces of paper found at Harris's, with the same plates, and as far as I can judge, they appear to be struck off from the same plates—one of them has a number on it, and the other has not.
Q. Do you find any numbers on any of these, similar to the one at Harris's? A. Yes; the one found at Harris's with a number, corresponds with the number of one found on Moses—also the signature at the back corresponds with some of those I found on moses—I afterwards searched moses lodging in the Tenter-ground, by spitalfields, but found nothing there—I had seen Balls and Harris frequently meeting at the Flying horse, and at the Eagle, in the City-road—I had seen Flaum with them many times—on every occasion when I saw them, he was with them—my attention was particularly drawn to them—I observed nothing which struck my attention only their meeting, 'and talking together, from the 24th of August, till the 9th of November this year, and during that time I was in communication with Mr. Saltzmaun.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. When did you make Mr. Saltzmaun's acquaintance? A. On the 21st of August—I became acquainted with Flaum, between the 21st and 24th—he is a Pole—Mr. Saltzmaun introduced me to him—I belive Mr. Saltzmaun is a German—I believe Flaum is, 'a Polish Jew, and comes from Austria—I know several men named Benjamin, but not as connected with this transaction—Flaum went by the name of Kerschbaum, I believe—I am not were of his going by any other name.
Q. Now was Kerschbaum always with you when you went to the public-houses you have spoken of—the Flying Horse, and Eagle? A. No; he was there, but he did not go with me—I found him there—I expected to find him there every time I went—I expected to find Flaum, Balls, and Harris—I only went once to the Eagle—when I went to the Star coffee-house, Flaum was there—I did not expect to find him there—I followed him there—I had not appointed with Flaum to go there—or to meet anywhere else—It was appointed by Mr. Saltzmaun that I should see Flaum,
and Harris, at the Flying Horse—I heard from him that an appointment was amde—I expected to find Moses when I went to the Strand coffee-house.
Q. Were not all these meetings planned by you, Saitzamaun, and Flaum? A. No; nor any of them—nor by us and any body else—the meetings at the Flying Horse were not the result of a plan between me, Flaum, and Saltzmaun.
Q. Were they the result of a scheme? A. I do not know how to answer you—I was not present at the appointment—It was not a scheme on my part, or on the part of other persons to my knowledge—I belive not, I cannot answer for others)—I was not any party to the arrangaement of these meetings—on any occasion—I cannot say when the first meeting was that I went to at the Flying Horse—It was between the 24th of August, and November—I think it was in September—I cannot say whether I was there in August—I have not a doubt I was there in September—It may be October—I ahve a doubt of being there in August—I may have been our or five times in September—I will swear I was not there ten times—I cannot swear I was not there ahlf a dozen times in September—I had seen Flaum before I went on the first occasion—It was arranged taht I should go to see them there, but I had made no appointmant—Mr. Saltzmaun was present when Falum told em such mectings were to take place—he was present as to the arrangement of my going, but not to their meetings—Mr. Saltzmaun went with me, and I believe every time, but I am not cortain—I had a meeting on each occasion with Flaum, and Mr. Saitzmaun, before I went to the Flying Horse, and I think I had in the morning of the day I went to the Eagle, but I am not sure that Falum was present—I am not certian whether I saw Flaum before I went to the star coffie-house but I saw Mr. saltzmaum, and most likely I did see Flaum—I have no douth about it—I do not know whether he was present before I went to the Eagle, as somtimes Mr. Saltzmaum, communication to me waht he had heard from him—It is as likely he was there as not.
Q. Is Flaum in any body's pay to your knowledge? A. Not to my knowledge—I have seen him receive money—I do not know what for—Mr. Saltzmaum talke in Geramn to him—Flaum cannot speak English—I cannot say how much money I have seen pass—I do not recoolect it—I believe it was neither silver nor gold—It was notes—I cannot tell to what amount—there was more than one, but waht notes I cannot say—I think I have seen money pass about twice——I think once was sovereigns—I do not know waht quantity—I paid no attention to it—money has not passed six times in my presence—I have not had money on say occasion except 4l. 19s. for coach hire—I expect to be apid—no arrangement has been made how much I am to have—nor have I any idea—I have had no understanding what I am to ahve from Mr. Saltzmaun, or any body.
Q. I think you say you found Haris and Balls in a front-room on the first-floor, showing some brass pieces to two other persons? A. I said Balls was showing them—he was showing them to Harris and Flaum—I was told Flaum had gone there—I had not sent him in there myself—he had been in my company two minutes before—I had not seen him go in, nor told him to go in—he did not tell me he was going in—Mr. Seltzmaun was with me—I did not walk here at all with Flaum—he went on ahead—there was another person watchuing him, who is in court, named Goodison—he is not an officer, but is the son of a person belonging to the establishment.
Q. Had not Flaum been in, and come out to you, to tell you every thing
was ready? A. Flaum spoke to Mr. Saitzmaun in German—I could not understand what he said—Mr. Saltzmaun told me somthing—wherther it was what Flaum had told him I cannot say.
Q. Did you not learn after Flaum returned that all was ready? A. I was informed so hy Mr. Saitzmaun—I had heard Balls had a portmanteaus before I went to the house in Irronmonger-street—I had not heard there was a little tin box in it—I had no reason to expect that there was—nor any blue paper—I had no reason to expect I should find any there, or in the porymanteau—I had no reason to expect I should find the card-case, or the engraving which was in it—that had not been arranged—I had no reason to expect I should find a pocket-book when I went to the coffee-house, nor what was in it—I had reason to expect I shoulod find Moese at the place I went to, and the plates, and papers, the(104 notes)—I did not know the quentity—I did not expect to find the pices of brass for the water-mark—Flaum did not go with me there—he was there at the time—he had gone on—It was an appointment—I had not told Mr. Saltzmaun to send him there—I had parted with him I should think-an-hour before I went, in Henrietta-street, Covent-garden, in copany with Mr. Saitzmaun, in the street.
Q. Had not you arranged to sent Flaum there to see that all was ready? A. It was arranged I suppose by himself, but not by me—I had been told of it, snf I went in pursuance of that—Mr. Saltzmaun told em in the porsence of Flaum—Sadier's-hall-court is at the bottom of Gravel-lant Houndsditch—I foumd some blan apper there, in a cupboard by the side of the bed, in the first floor room—that is Harris's lodging—I had never been there before—I had no reason to know there was a cupboard in the room—there was no arrangement with me about it, nor in my presence—I did them—Fletcher was with me a few times—I do not think he was at any meeting I had with Mr. Saltzmaun, and Flaum, precious to the apprehensions—I have no recollection of it.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Waht time of dthe day was it you went to the dtrand coffee-house? A. Aboutfive o'clock in the afternoon, I think—I had seen Flaum about half an hour before—I saw Flaum at the coffee-house in the morning part—the parcel I saw lying on the table was wrapped up in the paper I have produced it in—It was not sealed up to my recollection—It was fastened up—Moses mopved it further on which I was going to put my ahnd on it, and told me the place was engaged as I was goingt to sit there—he was sitting in the box.
Cross-examined by MR. JONES. Q. Do you know that Balls is an Englishman? A. He speaks english—I should not judge him to be a foreigner—I ahve not been to Birmingham on this busicess—I do not know whether Mr. Saltzamun, or Flaum went—after I took Balls into custody at the star, I believe Flaum went to Henrietta-street, Covent Garden—I saw him there afterwards—I I do not know wherther he walked quickly away—I took no notice of him—I saw him afterwards in Henrietta-street—he came out of a coach there, and I spoke to him in the street—I had not appointed to meet him there, and I knew he would be there.
MR. PLATT. Q. Mr. Saltzmaun, introduced you to Flaum? A. Yes; Sir Frederick Roe, the Msgistrate introduced em to Mr. Saltzmaun, at Bow street, office, where I attebd—I received directions from sir Frederick Roe, and my intrefrence in this matter was in pursuance of those directions—before I went to Balls lodging I ehard there was a portmantean there—It
come to me throught Mr. Saitzmaun—I did not do any thing more than what Mr. Saltzmaun directed, and that was in pursuance of the instrutions from the Magistrate.
MR. FRANCIS SALTZMAUN . I am the accountant-general of the Austrain Nationl Bank. It is Catablished at Vicnna—I was sent over to this country by the Austrian goverument, during the summer of this year—Flaum came with me—when I arrived here I saw Sir Frederick Roe, the Chief Magistrate at Bow-street, and stated to him the objact of my coming here—I afterwards acted under his directions—I was never introduced to the prisoner Harris myself—I ahve often seen him—I first saw him on the 21st of Atgust, at noon on the Royal Exchange.
SIR FREDERICK ROE, KNT . I am chief Magistrate of Bow-street. Mr. Saltzmaun was introduced to me, and stated his object in coming to this country—I had been previously apprized of it by the Austrian government—I attentively read over the Act of Parliament, and saw the objacts he came to inquire about was capsble of being reached by our law and directed ruthven to act with him in the discovery of any thing—I gave him directions to give every possible assistance to Mr. Saltzmaun—he mentioned subject to me more tahn once.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. I belive you have been sent for in a hurry here to-day? A. A gentleman came and aske me to come—I do not know what ruthven did, except from what he told me—I agve him directions to assist in the discovery of an alleged crime.
Q. Whether he, and Flaum, and M. Saltzmaun adopted plans togather, you cannot tell? A. Certainly not.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. As far as you know did he do any thing to merit your disapprobation? A. Quite the contray—he told me, from time to time, how he was proceeding.
MR. CLARKSON. Q. You did not direct him in the manner he was to proceed? . No—he told me more tahn once what he had done.
MR. FRANCIS SALTZMAUN re-examined. I first saw Harris on the Royal Excahnge, on the 21st of August—I never had any conversotion with him at any time—I heard him speak with Flaum—I do not remember the day, but it was about the beginning of september, or the end of August—It was in the Auction Mart, coffee-house—Wilham Baker is the anme of the landlord—I do not distinctly recollect any thing Haaris said—They were whispersing togather, and waiting fot Balls, who did not come—I did not hear Balls name mentioned at that moment—I ahve seen Balls and Harris togather many times—Flaum was with them—I never haeard any part of the conversation—I never saw Harris give laum any thing—I saw some notes when Flaum brought them to me—where he got them I do not know, except from waht he told me—I saw Moses at romford—I never saw him in company with Harris and Balls—I saw him at romford with Flaum, in the street, walking about in search of somebody—I did not hear him say any thing—I have also seen him in London, but I cannot state where.
Q. Do you recollect any of the place where you saw Harris, Balls, and Flaum togather? A. Yes; I saw them at the Flower Pot public-house in Bishopaagte-street, and at the Eagle Tavern, City-road, and I saw them going away from the Auction Mart, in Throgmorton-street—I think it was about the 5th of September—I ahve a memorandum which I amde at the time—It was in September—I saw them at the Flower Pot—I saw them togather four or five times ebfore November—I did not hear any part of their conversation, but I saw they were on conversation—I was persent on the 9th of November, when Ruthven
apprehended Balls and Harris—I had given information to Ruthven that they were to be there—I heard it from Flaum—It was at the Star, in Crown-street, Finsbury—I was present when Moses was taken—that was later in the afternoon—I was in the room in the Stral coffee-house—Ruthven entered with me, and went to a box where Moses was sitting alone—a aprcel was before him on the atble—Moses put his head on the parcel to hold it, but ruthven took it up, and put it by his side—he opened it in Moses' presence, and there were amny plates and inpressions of the polish notes in it—these plates and notes were in the parcel—I looked at them—Flaum agve ne three polish notes—this is the first—I Agust—the next was on the 1st of September—he showed the first to me on the evenibg of the 21st of Augudt, or next morning—he took it away with him, and gave it to me afterwards with all the papers—It was some time after—I do not remember the day—I am sure it is the note he showed me in the 21st of August—I took the number of it down at the time, and took a note of it—It is No.2, 375, 162—I saw the second on the 1st of September—Flaum showed it to me—I took the number of that down at the same time—It is No.3, 529, 478—I do not know on what day he gave me the third, but here is the note—here is a plate and some papers which I received from him at the same time—I know where the plate came from—flaum brought it to me, and agve it to me in the papers—he agev em the plate the same day as the third note, and there are two small plates in the same paper belonging to it—there is an oblong and two small oval plates—Falum overs with em from the Continent—I ahve gievn him money merely to support himself and make payments, and he acted under my directions.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. When did you first become acquinted with Flaum? A. In July. 1835, at Vienna—the General Secretary of the bank of Ausrtria introduced him to me—he was not in custody—he was a respectable aman—he was a marchant—I do not know of what—I did not enter into his trade—I do not think he was a ship-owner, but I do not know—I saw Balls and Harris toagther once in the perlour of the flower Pot, but I ahve seen them go away from there recrss often—Ruthvan was not with em—I did not know of Flaum hahving been in custody—I do not know it now—I first agve Flaum money at Vienns; from time to time he receiced as much as he wanted—he may have received 30l. or 4s. at Vienna—I apid his travelling expenses to this country Frankfort—I agve him money just before the left Vienna—I did not give him the 30l. or 40l. altogether—he received 20l. some days before the 20th, perhaps three or four days—when he came to Frankfort I agve him 20l—I beg to explain it was not I myself but the Secretary paid part, and I paid part—I took it in account—I gave him from 10l. to 20l. the first time, and the Secretary gave him 20l.—that was all I gave him till he came to Frankfort—I might give him about 10l. at Frankfort before he travelled with me from Frankfort, and I paid his expenss—I paid him nothing for his time.
Q. Between the time of your egtting grom Frankfrort to England, did you pay him any thing? A. Nothing but what he wanted for his suppost, from 10l. to 15l.—before he came from Frankfort to London he had 8s. a day for his support—he had the 10l. or 15l. in order to make an account—that money was to pay his expenses—I did not pay his expenses beside—he lived in Gun-square, Houndsditch, when he came to town—I was
living at No. 30, Great Potthand-street—I never agve Flaum money except to support himself and pay his expenses, and other payments which he had to make—he never had any for himself.
Q. Did he happen to want to make any payments when he produced taht blue paper? A. Yes; I agve him 30l. I think—that was on the 21st of August—I should not think it was more than that—I cannot say what I agve him on such a day—I will undertake to say it was not 50l.—I think it was 30l. but I am not quiet sure, as he may have received besides the 30l. 5l. for his support—he took the blus paper from me again—onm the 1st of September he brought me another blue paper—I cannot tell whether he wanted any money then or on another day—I gave him money so amny times it is quiet impossible to stae any day
Q. How much ahve you given him since he has been in England? A. it may amount to 290l. not more—somtimes, by accident, Ruthven has been present when I ahve settled with him—I should rather, think he has not minded what I agve him—he received generally 10l.—I have given him him 40l. in Ruthven's present—I should think 20l.—I have given him money two or three times in Ruthven's presence, in my own apartment—I should not think it was more than two or three times, but I made no memorandum of such trifles—the 290l. is beside waht the Secretary of the Royal Bank gave him.
Q. He get these three papers for you, or prodeced them to you? when did you receive them finally?how long before these emn were in custody? A. I do not remeber—It was more than a day—Flaum does not speak English at all, and does not understand it—I did not sit down with them when I went to the flying Horse and Eagle—I sat down in the room—I agve him directions to get into the confidence of such persons we knew werer existing in London—I had received inforamtion that such persons were in existence, conerned in the business of forhertes—he undertook it readily—he was no commissioner of mine—the Austrian Government commissioned him, and the Bank—I did not enploy him to engage persons to make notes—I did not know of such notes were ecxisting or not—he was directed to get Anstrian notes if he could have some—In the ebginning, I did not employ him to get these notes made—I never employed him to get them amde—I did not employ or pay him to get notes of the Austrian Government amde—we do not want notes made in Fngaland—I wanted him to get Austrian forged notes, and any forged notes—he was directed to agree to all the parties offceed him, and they told him he should have notes—I doid not employ him to get them manufactured—I did not know in the latter times, that they were going on manufacturirng—I do not wish to state waht is untrue—I employed him to get them—eh said he must have 1000 pieces—I laid the money down and said, "Get them"—neither him nor I could tell whether they were already made.
Q. Did you not authorize Flaum, if the could not fine any ready made, to get them made? A. Never—I naver told him to go and order notes to be made—I employed him to get Austrian notes wherever he could find them, and to trace the parties—I never spoke about getting them made—I never ordered him to seek somebody who would manufacture them for him—I gave him no directions to encouraeg people to make them—he says he has never been in England before—he passed by the name of Benjamin Kerschbaum—he was directed to assume that name when he left Vienna—I did not direct him—It was found expedient—I think the reason was, that it might not be known, when he got acquainted
with the parties—that somebody on the Continent, who was connected with the party, might not write to say, "Flaum is now in London, be cautious, he is trying to trace the notes"—Flaum is employed by the Austrian Government—he gets his living by them—he has 10s. a day of his support—he was first employed in the month of July—I did not know him before that.
Q. How do you happen to know he has been a merchant? A. It is supposed people of his kind ae all merchants—he is a Jew, and they trade—I am aware he is employed by the Government for this purpose—the Government and the Bank had agreed about the matter.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. Tell me the directions you gave Flaum? A. To get requainted with the men, whom we knew, before leaving Vienus, were boarding and lodging at the same house whre some parties had transacred business about forgery before, there had been forgeries committed on the Bank of Vienna to some amount—I am not employed by the Russian or Polish Government, but directed by the Austrian Government to take care, as well for the Foreign States aas our own—I had given no directions about Polish notes, before Polish notes were brought to me—Flaum paid his own bills, day by day, when we were travelling from Frankfort to London—from time to time he got payment from me, and paid for his support—he had 8s.—a day on the contient or four florins—and here five florins, tens—I employed him with respect to Austrian as well as Polish notes—I have seen the plates produced to-day—I am sure those plates were in the parcel, and that the parcel was in the possession of Moses—when Ruthven apprehended him, Flaum was four or five steps from Moses—he was not sitting with him in the same box.
SAMUEL FLAUM (through an intepreter.) I am a native of Cracow. I came to England on the 2nd of August—the Government ordered me to proceed to Vienna, and from there to England—I assumed the name of Benjamin Kerschbaum—the Government gave me directions to assume another name, that I should not be known—when I arrived in this country I went to lodge at Mrs. Colly's, in Gun-yard—a tailor, of the name of Max, lodged in Gun-yard—he lived there before I went there, and did so then—I employed him to make the cloak for me that I have on—In consequence of some conversation I had with Max, he introduced me to Harris, at a public-house in Houndsdith, in the month of August, but I do not recollect on what day.
Q. Did any conversation take place when you, Max, and Harris, were together? A. Yes; abut making forges notes, and I was to pay some money for them—Haris spoke to me first, and said he was acquainted with the people for twenty-five years, and he could get any thing from them—(manufactures of bad money—bad Bank notes)—Harris and I understood each other in speaking—we conversed in Hebrew—Harris is a Jew, and so is Max—Max joined in that conversation—I told Harris what I wanted, and he said it was always customary to pay some money in advance for the notes, but I would not do it without I had security.
Q. What notes were those for which you were to pay money in advance? A. Imperial notes, on the subject in question—Harris first showed me Polish notes, but I did not want them—I was to pay Ostend notes in advance—I said I wanted 8000 guilders, but Harris said he would not sell me less than 10, 000—Harris told me I must take 1000 of 50 guilders, each, which would be 50, 000—he gave me the Polish note that he showed me, and I kept it—I have not got it now—I had it in my possession,
and kept it some time, and gave it to Mr. Saltzmaun, to whom I had first shown it—I had shown it to him, and took it back, and gave it to him again.
COURT. Q. You showed it to Mr. Saltzmaun, and he looked at it for about ten minutes, I suppose? A. Mr. Saltzmaun took the particulars of it, and returned it to me, and I kept it al the time, till I gave it to Mr. Saltzmaun, on the 9th of November.
Mr. PLATT. Q. Do you know Robert Balls? A. Yes—Harris introduced me to him—Balls understands German very trifling—Balls and I conversed through harris was the broker in the business, and he transacted it all—I had no bussiness to do with Balls—no bargin was made with Harris when Balls was by—every thing had been arranged beforehand—a Bill of Exchange was drawn—this is it (looking at it)—Turner, the acceptor, is a friend of Balls—I do not know what be is—I gave 30l. sterling, is a friend of Balls—I do not know what he is—I it was 30l. altogether—Balls had written the bill himself, and put his name on the back of it—Harris also put his name on the back.
Q. Why was that Bill of Exchange given? A. That if they had not given me Bank notes in six weeks, the 30l. might be paid back again—the Imperial notes are called Bank notes for Austrian.
COURT. Q. What kind of Bank notes were they? A. Fifty guilders Austrian Bank notes (bill read) "£30, London, 24th August, 1835. Six weeks after date, we promise to pay Benjamin Kerschbaum, or order, £30, for value received. Signed, Robert Balls. To Benjamin Turner, 33, Whitechapel-road. Indosed, Robert Balls and Thomas Harris."
MR. PLATT. Q. Did you, after that note was given, see Balls on more than one occasion? A. Many times—he gave me a Polish note—he showed it to me as a speciman, that he could make such notes—he gave it me—Harris was not present when Balls gave it me—he came afterwards—I put the note into my pocket-book, and shoed it to Mr. Saltzmaun, and then put it back again—I kept it in my pocket-book till the 9th of November, when I gave it to Mr. Saltzmaun.
Q. Did Harris interpret between you and Balls, about the Polish note? A. An accommodation had taken place frequently, and he had offered to make me a 1000 at 1s. apiece—Harris always interpreted to me in the Hebrew language—Harris spoke to Balls in the course of the conversation in English, and to me in Hebrew—I have had nothing to do with any other Polish notes—I waa at the Flower Pot, in company with Harris and Balls—I do not recollect whether any other Polish notes were produced there—I know Moses—Philip Farmer introduced me to him in Houndsditch—at No.5, in a public-house—I was present with Harris when Farmer brought in Moses, and introduced him as a respectable man—I saw Moses next day, and he showed me two Polish bank notes—he said he had plates, and he could print as many of them as I wanted—I have seen moses very frequently—I always put it off with "It required consideration"—that was about the polish notes—he came to my lodger, about the second or third day after we became acquainted a—I do not recollect the day we became acquainted because I reported every day to Mr. Saltzmaun, and he took it down, and I did not charge my memory with it—when Moses came to my lodging, he had two notes, and he produced the plate, and five or six pieces—I was twice at the Eagle, with Balls and harris—Mr. Saltzmaun was present once—I always reported daily every thing
that had taken place between myself, Balls, and Harris—Moses was apprenhended on the 9th of November—I had appointed to meet him that day—he was to deliver to me the plates and the 104 notes—we were to meet in the Strand coffee-house—I communicated to Mr. Saltzmaun, that that apppointment was made—I was present when Balls and harris were apprehended—I had made an appointment to meet them, and I had communicated that to Mr. Saltzmaun—I was to meet them, and they were to show me the stamps, and every thing that was ready—I have been to harris's lodging several times—It is at No. 5, Gravel-lane, a corner house.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. What were you at Cracow? A. A merchant—I dealt in produce.
Q. When you came to England, did you not ask for some persons to make notes for you? A. I came for that purpose—not to make—but to puschase those that were ready made—I had no occasion to inquire to have them made, because they came and offered themselves to me—they came to me in consequence of finding I was a purchaser of notes—I received instructions to get into the confidence of persons in this country, in order to find out the makers of notes—I was not examined on this subject before any Magistrate in this country—I did not emplou Moses to interpret for me in the purchase of some goods—I did not tell him I should want his sevices as an interpreter—I know a person named Marks, who is in the King's Banch prison—he was out there with harris—I first saw Moses three or four weeks after I came to this country.
Cross-examined by MR. JONES. Q. Can you speak English? A. No—a few words, that is all I know—I have understood a few works here and there, of the questions that have been put to me, but not all—I brought Austrian notes with me to this country, but no Polish notes, because I had no instructions fot that purpose—I did not bring one polish note with me—I had no Polish notes given me by Mr. Saltz, aun, in this country.
Q. Did you show any of the Austrian notes you had, to anyn of there parties, saying you wished some made like them? A. I wanted some, but I did not order any to be made—I shwed some to harris, and the others—I Harris showed the Austrian note to Harris, and I did not want any Polish I showed the Austrian note to harris, and told him I wanted some notes like that—I said I would buy 8, 000 guilders of them if he would make them in six weeks,—he was to procure them in six weeks—I did not tell him to make them, but I wanted such notes to send home—I told harris I wanted such, notes, but no Polish notes.
Q. Did you not tell Harris you did not care whether the notes you wanted were already made, or to ber made for you? A. That is quite out of the question, for I did not suppose they could be made in six weeks—therefore it was never my intention to talk about making them—I cannot swear that I said what you have mentioned or not—I can neither say yes or no—I could never have said such a thing.
Q. Perhaps you will not swear you will not swear you did not tell Harris, that you did not care whether the notes you wanted were already made, or whether they should be made for you? A. I cannot swear one way or the other—I told Harris I was a merchant—I never told him I was a banker.
Q. When you paid the 30l. did you not advance it in order to pay the expense of preparing the plates? A. Yes, I did—I did not know whether they were made beforehand, or whether they were to be made—they
did not tell me—previous to that time I did not know any thing about the notes to be made or not, but after I paid the money I supposed they were to be made—they were offering to make all sorts of notes—French, and English—I went down to Birmingham to ascertain whether there was any stock on hand thee—no one went with me—It was on the 16th of October—I spoke Hebrew on my journey—I was not able to speak to the coachman and guard.
MR. PLATT. Q. You say when you paid the 30l. you expected the plates were to be prepared—what plates do you mean—the plates of the Austrian, or Polish notes? A. Austrian—the polish were all ready—the 30l. was paid on account of the Austrian notes—I recollect Ballsd writing down the address of harris in his presence—this is it—Balls wrote a part, Harris a part, and I myself wrote a part—some of it is in Hebrew—part of that was written by me, and part by Harris—the part witten in Hebrew is "Sadler's-hall-building, Gravel-lane, Houndsditch"—the English was written by Balls—I merely wrote, "Mr. Harris, No.5," (read) "Mr. Harris, No.5, Sadler's-hall-buildings, Gravel-lane, Houndsditch."
STANISLAS ADLTS . I am comptroller of the Bank of Poland—the Emperor nicolas I. is king of Poland—the Bank of poland belongs to the government—(looking at the blue papers) these are like the Poliss cash notes—there are such notes used by the government of Poland—they are in this form—such notes when genuine are received by the government of Poland in payment of taxes—payment is made of them at the bank from the royal treasury—this is a forged note (looking at another note.)
GEORGE RUTHVEN re-examined. I saw this impression taken from the plate I produced, and which I found in the possession of Moses—Mr. Marks who is in the employ of Mr. Branston, did it; and I saw this impression taken from the othe plate found in the possession of Moses.
STANSLAS ADELTE re-examined. This is the from of the Polish notes at the bank—the front is in the Polish language—It purports to be signed—I find two signatures here—here is "Theofil Seymanowski," and on the right side is "L. Plater"—there are persons of thse names who were of the Royal Commissary they were officers of a committee appointed on purpose to sign the notes—the note translated into English is as follows:—"Cash note of the Kingdom of Poland, the bearer of whichm the Exchange officer, will in compliance to the Royal decree, of the 15th of April, 1822, pay the sum of five guidence in the established currency—this notes will be acepted or received in every government establishment," and on the back is "Five," (looking at the noter shown to Mr. Saltzmaun on the 21st of August)—I have seen the plate—It appears to me that this note is taken from the name plate—the same signatures is on it—It is forged—(looking at another shown on the 1st of September)—this is also a forgery—these two found at Harris's are forged—(looking at those found in Moses possession) these are made from a forged stamp of the Polish cash notes—I have examined all the 104 notes before, and they are all forged.
Q. Look at these two oval pieces of metal found at Balls' lodging? A. This oval piece would go into this pieces of wood—It agrees well with it—that would make the impression that appears on the note—they are on purpose to make the dry stamps.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. have you a good Polish five gulden note? A. Yes—Theofil Szymanowski is not now one of the Royal Commissaries—the commission does not exise now—when the notes
were made the commission ceased to exise—I think that was in 1825 and 1826 the commission has not existed since.
Q. Are there any notes now in circulation in Poland with Mr. Szymanowski's superscription, as commissary? A. Yes; they are in circulation still, and also those of Mr. Plater—If genuine these could be circulated in Poland—the 104 pieces are a very bad imitation—they are so bad they could not impose on any body in Poland—they are so badly done—the two I have been shown are very badly executed—they would not be likely to be taken by any body in Poland—I can hardly suppose any body there would be likely to take them—but I cannot answer for four millions of people—any person of understanding, doing business and acquainted with the genuine notes would not receive them—I think he would not be imposed on by such as this—golden and guilder are the same—a guilder is the value of 6d. English money—piec means "five" in english—the figures 1824 mean the year—the note would not get into circulation without some date or other—(looking at a note)—this is a bad note—(looking at another)—the words piec and zloych in the inner margin mean five guldens—If those words were left out the note would not be circulable.
COURT. Q. Are the 104, and the two notes, and the one, the one, all from the same plate? A. I think not.
MR. CLARKSON. Q. how many different plates do there appear to you to have been used? A. I cannot tell—I think there may he two.
COURT. Q. Those words appear on the forged note? A. Yes.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. Are such notes as these issued by the Bank after they have beeen in circulation—are they sometimes after the Bank once receive them, put into circulation again? A. Yes; such notes are now part of the circulating medium of Poland—they are sometimes called guilders in English; it is guldens—a Polish boor might take them for genuine notes year appear in the genuine notes, and the number—the year 1824 appears in the margin—that is one of the things by which I know whether the notes are genuine or not.
COURT. Q. Are you well acquainted with the English language, or only partially so? A. I am not well acquainted—the 104 notes seem to be off one and the same plate, from the plate shown here—the four single ones appear from one plate, but from another plate than the 104—these two are from the same plate—I have thre here)—I am not mush acquainted with engraving.
MR. LABON re-examined. (looking at the 104 notes.) These notes appear to me to be taken from that plate—this one, found at Harris's, is not from the same plate—It is a much better print than the 104—a better or worse impression may come from the same plate, and be quite different from the others—It would be a most difficult thing to ascertain exactly whether it came from the same plate or not—it may be from the same plate, but it is more than I can undertake to say—(looking at the one shown on the 21st of August,)—this is from the same plate as the 104—from the plate now produced, both the back and front plate.
MR. CLARKSON. Q. then you don't agree with Mr. Adelte, that they do not come from the same plate? A. I saw one which does not belong to the same plate, yesterday; but I have not seen it to-day—Mr. Saltzmaun showed it to me—one of the notes produced from harris is from the same plate—the other may be, but I can't say.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. Look at this note, what is your opinion of it? A. This is not from the backing plate, nor is the front from the same plate, in my opinion—this is the one Mr. Saltzmaun showed me yesterday—(the one shown to Mr. Saltzmaun on the 1st of September.)
COURT. Q. Is it different from the 104, and from the one you looked at before? A. Completely different, on the back, and in the front—It is much better executed—I am positive neither the front or the back could ever come from the same plate.
JOHN SMITH . I am a translator of language. This book is Kelly's Cambist—It came from my office—It is the only book to be relied on in foreign exchanges in money—guldens are frequently named in England, when talking of Polish coin—I have been forty years in merchantile business—the word guilder is more applied to the Dutch coin, and gulden to Polish.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. do you know an Austrian word called gulden? A. Yes; it is constantly my custom to refer to an English dictionary in translating languages—It is called gulden, guilder, or florin, according to the country—I was speaking of gulden—It is an English word, adopted in mercantile language.
COURT. Q. Is gulden used to express Polish coin? A. Yes——In England they call it gulden.
MR. CLARKSON. Q. Is there any difference between gulden and guilder? A. It is according to the country.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENEREAL. Q. Are Dutch coins, called guilder; Polish, gulden; and Austriam florin? A. Yes—In German, they are called guldens—they are called by those diofferent names in England.
Moses's Defence. this very man was recommended to me as a merchant and banker—(this Benjamin Kerschbaum)—he lodged in Gun-square—I do not know at what number—a person named Phillips recommended me to him, and said, "This man can speak good English, and he can undrstand you well enough"—he spoke to me—he said, "I am going to purchase Gloucester cheese and Cheshire cheese which I want for abroad"—I said, "That I can do for you, because my landlord, a gentleman named Hughes, keeps a large wholesale warehouse in Whitechapel, and I can make enquires of him"—I did so, and he said, double Gloucester so much and Cheshire so much—I came back and told him—and he said, "I will consider about it"—I said, When shall I come to you?"—he said, "Never mind, when I want you I will send for you"—In about a week he sent for me—he had a young man who he said wa his brother—he said, "I think it would be bettter for me to go to the regular factories whee they make these cheeses"—I said, "They do not make them in London, they make them in Cheshire and Gloucestershire"—he said, "I should like to go, will you go with me?"—I said, "Consider, I have five children, if I go, who shall maintain them?"—I said, "The least I must leave at home with my family is 30s. a week "—he said, "That is not much"—I said, "Who shall maintain me?—he said, "I will pay all your expenses if you go with me"—I said, "Suppose I go with you and you leave 30s. a week with my family, what satisfaction will that be to me, where five can eat six can?"—he then dropped t, and said he would consider—In a day or two he sent for me again, and said, he had nade up his mind to go, would I go with him?—I said, "I do not mind, I will go with you"—he said, "I am told the best road to Cheshire, is to go to Birmingham"—I said, "I do not care, I have not been out of London twenty-nine years"—when he found
that, he dropped it again, and said no more about it—the second day after he said, "Will you recommend me to a vry genteel lodging?—I said, "What is the reason you cannot stay where you are?—he said, "I have got too many follows, and too many people know me; some ask me to Iend them money, and some, that I should give them a little money, therefore I should like to leave"—I said, "I could soon get you a lodging"—he said, "Get a general one"—I got him one in Somerset-street that is the acquaintance I had with him—I said, "When shall I come to you again?"—he promised me from one day to another that he would stisfy me for my trouble—I said, "When will you want me again?"—he said, "Not at present, I am going over to holland, there has been a mistake; some goods that I expected to come to London, have gone to holland"—I had not seen him for nine or ten days—he then sent to me again—I said you have made a very quick journey to Holland—he said, "We can go by the packet in twenty-four hours, and stop there two or three days, and come back—he said, "Should you like to go with me to the Bench?"—"I said, "What for?"—he said, "I was at Birmingham, and I was there the white fast, and I was told there were two persons who lived at Birmingham, in the Bench, should you like to go with me?"—I said, "Very well"—I went—he told me to whom he was going—he said, "One of them, and I are quite enemies, when he cleared himself by the act he was insolvent, "but one of them I might be friends with—I went to the Bench, and he went to the party the meant to go to—after he had been there an hour he called me, and says, "I am going back again, "and we walked back again—but the short of al this is, he had been purchasing something of these men, this Benjamin Kerschsum had been purchasing something, what it is for, sure my Lord I do not knowmingham to go to these persons—I went home about my business he went home—I did not see him a length of time afterwards—he told the mistres "When any stanger come, if I am at home deny me to them"—I used to take him wherever he wanted to go—one day says to me, "My doctor told me I should go for my health to Gravesend, I cannot speak English, I should like some one to go with me"—I said, "If I go with you to Gravesend, I must he paid for my trouble, "but he went by himself, as I understood—we went to Romford together—he said he wanted to go for pleasure—It was market-day, wednesdat—he said, "It is a very large market I am told where they hire servants, I should like to go"—I went there, and I said I would take some goods with me—I did so, and we came rather latc to the market, and went to the king's Head, and had something to drink—I then went out with my things—he had my umbrella, and his umbrella—he had a new silk umbrella, and some one during my absence snatched it from under his arm—he told me of it when I came back, and I ran up and down, but did not see it—I came home with him—About a week after, the Thursday before I was taken on the Monday, he sends his brother-in-law to my house, and he says, "My brother-in-law wishes to see you"—I went to a coffee-house—he sat there—he says, "I am going to the play this evening, will you oblige me to jkeep this little parcel for me till to-morrow, there are different people in the play, and it may be taken from me?"—It was tied with red tape—I said, What have you got in it?"—he said, "Bills of lading, and a sample of quicksilver"—he told me to tell the waiter to bring a bit of sealing-wax, and a candle—I said to him, "Have you got a seal?—he said, "Yes," and he sealed it
with the water-seal—he then took off his ring from his finger with three latters on it, and he sealed it again with this ring—he then went, whether to the play or not I do not know—I went home with the parcel—I went to his house on Friday—he was out—I would not leave it with the mistress—after the Sabbath, on the 7th of last month, the brother came to me, and said, "My brother has sent for you"—I said, "I wil go"—I came to the coffee-house in Whitechapel, and he was not there—his brother then said, "My brother moved from here yesterday, he had a fall out with the mistress, and he is gone to the West End"—we went in a cab to the Strand coffee-house, and sat there till night—he did not come—we then eturned in an omnibus home—on Sunday I did not see him—on Monday morning he sent his brother again, and we went to the same coffee-house in Whitechapel—but he did not come—his brother said, "The best way will be to go to the Strand coffee-house—we were going, and saw Benjamin—he said, "Do not disappoint me, I will meet you at one o'clock at the Strand coffee-house"—we went there, and called for coffee—we sat there half an hour, and then who should come in but Mr. Banjamin Kerschmanm—he said, "Are you here?"—I said, "Yes, I have been here this half hour"—the parcel laid on the table before me—he hung this very same cloak he has on to day over the settle, and he pulled his hat off, and put it next to him—he sat down and said, "Have you got change for a foreign?"—I said, "On Saturday night I paid for the cab, and the omnibus back again?—he said to his brother, "Go and get change"—In a minute the officer came in—I was sitting on one side, and the other side was then vacant—the officer going there—I said, "Excuse me. this place is engaged"—he said, "Never mind"—he laid his hand on the parcel, and said, "What have you got there?—I said, "Nothing particular"—all at once young Mr. Kerschbaum came in, and I was taken, and examined—I was put into the coach with the short gentleman, and the officer and they took me away, and the same night I was sent to Tothill Fields.
Ball's Defence (written.) My lord, and Gentleman of the Jury.—It is at all times a hard task for a plain-dealing tradesman, who has not enjoyed a liberal education and is not accustomed to public speaking, to address a numerous assembly, and so to frame his address, as to carry conviction home to the minds of his heares; but hard as such a task is, under any circumstances, it becomes almost insuperable to the guiltless man; who arrigned as a criminal, has to plead in his own defence, and feels that his liberty, his honour, his standing in society, his own welfare, and what must be far more precious to him, the honour and welfare of his deatr fmily, in short all that can rendar life desirable is at stake; and must be lost or preserved, according to the impression he makes on his juddges; accoding to the more or less plain and lucid manner in which he is able to state the facts as they really occured, and demonstrate his innocnce. No wonder if he feels the awful natures of his position. No wonder if he is overwhelmed by the consiciousness of his own utter inablity, and if confused at being placed in a situation so entirely new to him, and called upon to perform a duty to which he is altogether unaccustomed; no wonder, I say it is—If under such trying circumtances he should lose his courge, his presence of mind—nay, every hope, save in an uprighteous and omniscient Judge. Suchgentleman of the Jury, is my case now; I cannot I dare not rely on my own efforts to prove how wrongfully I am accused; but there is a God who protects the innocent, who knoweth the secret workings of the heart. May he enlighten yours, and I shall have no cause to dread the result of this trial.
Gentlemen of the jury, I am accused of havinf engraved plates, for the purpose of forging notes, purporting to be issued by the Bank of Vienna, in Austria, but I do not know any foreign language; I have never occupied myself with studying the custom and istitutions of foreign countries, and I can with truth most solemnly over, that until I found myself, most unexpectually and to my great surprise, apprehended on this charge, I never knew there was any bank at Vienna, much les that the Bank of Vienna issued notes. Pursuing the public excreise of my trade as an agent, I was accustomed to take orders for engravings, I was accused by my fellow prisoner, Mr. harris, who introduced to me a Mr. Kerschbaum, a foreigner. They told me they wished me to engrave a plate for some tickets, to be used as shares for a mining company abroad. They produced a specimen in a foreigen language, a precise fac-simile, of which they required me to engrave. we agreed as to price, they paid me a deposit, and I set to work. I had no doubt nor hesitation on my own mind, nor the slightest misgiving as to the truth of their representaion, for the specimen did not at all look lik any bank-note I had ever seen or heard of. The language it is true, I could not read nor understand; but that gave me no uneasiness; nor was I indeed acquinted with any person who could have translated the purport of the ticket to me. I set to work publicly. I gave the work to workmen. I did not caution them to keep the work secret. I did not attempt at all to conceal what I was doing; with that candour and fearlessness which can only spring from a good conscience, I would rather have exhibited to al men, than concealed from any one, an order so creditable to my skill as a workman. When the plate was finished, I went to the coffee-shop where my employers had directed me to meet them—and there, in a public room, in which dozens or men might have been present, I openly produced the plates which had been ordered of me. Nay, when the officers came and took me into custody, I still perserved in the same open and candid line of conduct. I made no attempt at concealment, but told them at once where they might find the specimen, after which I had engraved. And mark, I pray you, Gentlemen of the Jury, in what part of my house I kept this document, so dangerous to any one acquainted with its real nature, and intending to use it for future forgeries—It was kept in an open trunk in my parlour, to which my wife and my children could at all times have access.
Gentlemen of the jury, this is my simple statement. It is true—your own common sense will tell you it is so; and the inference is a plain one. A man who is about committing a serious crime, which the laws punish with severity, will use every precaution in his power to hide what he is about; but if, on the countrary, a man is concerned in doing that, which the laws of his country visit with a severe punishment, but which, nevertheless, he does so openly, without fear, and without any attempt at concealment, the presumption must be, that he is ignorant of the criminal nature of the action in which he is concerned. I put it to you, Gentlemen of the Jury. You yourselves are tradesmen; perhaps blessed with greater aflluence than has fallen to my share. But still you are tradesmen—you have wives and children to maintain, rents and taxes to pay. You depend upon your trade, upon the honest exercise of your industry, as the means of meeting your many wants. If one of you were an engraver; if he had been caled upon by a man of whom he had some previous knowledge, and who, as a friend, introduced a wealthy foreigner, who came to give him employment in his trade; what would he have done under those circumstances?
Would he have hesitated to accept the order? Would he have said to himself? "This man, introduced by a person whom I know, and who appears so respectable, is a scoundrel, who wants to make a tool of me; is a villain, who wishes to entagle a barmiess and unoffending man—and to destroy the happiness of an innocent family; I wil have nothing to do with him; I will not execute his order?" I ask you, Gentlemen of the Jury, would any one of you, were he placed as I then was, have come to such a conclusion, as the one just mentoned; or, would you not rather have acted as I did, and taken the order? And if you had done so, if perfectly unconscious of any wrong, you had executed that order, in what would your conduct have differed from mine? what could have saved you from standing at this bar, as I do this day? I put the question to you, sad I appeal to your sense as men, to your feelings as fathers of families, to your duty as British jurymen, to answer that question, as you will once have to answer it before your God.
If the mere fact of having these plates in my possession is sufficient to render me guilty in the eye of the law, I neither can nor will deny that fact. But if it is the intention which consitutes the crime, if it is the guilty knowledge which rendes an action criminal, I can, and do most solemnly over before God and man, that I am not guilty.
William Wright, 14, Carter-street, Houndsditch, clothes; Aaron Levy, teacher of hebrew, Brooker's-gardens, Leadenshall-street; John Lewis, Southampton-street, Mornington-crecent; Solomon Cohen, great Preacott-street: William Seal, slopeselle, Minories; Asbsolom Levy, silversmith Ratcliff-highway; John Bennett, butcher, Aldgate; Aaron Jones, St. Geroge's-circus; William Lee, Goleman-street; Sampson Barnett, Walworth-road; Jacob Nathan, gun-square; Moses Swarts Gulsonsquare; jocob Solomons, Roper's-buildings, Aldgate; and Martin Joseph's, of Ebenezer-square, Houndsditch; deposed to Moses's good character. Henry haysnes, Popular; John Judas, Nottingham-place, Commercial-road; John Todment, to that of harris. James Goggs, Russell-street, Bedford-square; and John Owens, Fore-street, Cripplegate, to that of Balls NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT.—Saturday, December 18, 1835.
Third Jury, before Mr. Justice Littledale.
290. MORDECAI MOSES, alias Marous Warsawer, alias Marcus Warchawer, was indicted for feloniously having in his possession, on 9th November, two plates, on which was engraved a certain promissory note, for the payment of monies of Nicolas, King of Poland, setting out the engraving and translation thereof. 35 other COUNTS, varying the description of the engraving.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL and MR. ADOLPHUS, JUN. conducted the Prosecution.
GEORGE RUTHVEN . I am an officer of Bow-street. I went to the Strand Coffee-house, about five o'clock in the afternoon of the 9th November—I entered the coffee-house, and saw the prisoner in a box in the room—there was nobody else sitting in the box—I went to the box where he was sitting, and saw a pacel on the table—I went to put my hand upon it—It was close before him—he put his hand on it, and moved it further from me—I laid hold of it, put it by my side, and searched him—I found
on him four notes of the Jersey bank, without numbers; and in the parcel I found this plate, and 104 notes, of which I now produce 102—I took him into custody.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. how came you to go to the coffee-house? A. I was told to go—I understood from Mr. Saltzmaun that Flaum had an appointment there with the prisoner—I went to two other places in consequence of similar appointments—altogether, I went to four at different times—I went to two houses—It was in consequence of appointments which I understood Flaum had made—the prisoner did nothing to the parcel till I put my hand on it—It was lying on the table—when I went to touch it he went and moved it—he did not touch it before—Flaum did not go in with me—he was standing near the bar, four or five steps from where the prisoner was sitting—I did not go there in consequence of Flaum fetching me to go—I saw him just before.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENEREL. Q. Did you act in these proceedings under the authority of Sir Frederick Roe, the chief magistate of Bow-street?—A. I did.
JURY. Q. When you found the parcel tied up, was there a seal on it? A. The parcel was tied up with string, therre was nos seal on it—this is the paper it was in—there is wax on the paper, but it was not sealed when I took it—this paper is as it was when I found it—I am quite sure of that.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. Were you the first hat opened the parcel? A. I was—I am quite sure it was not sealed—the prisoner told me he had brought it them, and expected to receive some money, and asked me if the little man was taken into custody—he said that in the coach, going to the office—he afterwards said, "Then I have been sold"—I presume, by "the little man" he meant Flaum.
MR. PAYNE. Q. Why not tell us all this yesterday? A. Because I was not asked—I was not asked to-day—I named it last night when I was out of Court—I have named it because it is the truth—I was sworn yesterday to tell the whole truth—I understood he meant Flaum, by the little man.
Q. Do not you think he meant Flaum had duped him, and tricked, and deceived him? A. I really cannot put an interpretation on what he said.
MR. FRANCIS SALTZMAUN . I am accountant-genral of the Bank of Vienna. I came to this country in August last, by the orders of my government—on the 9th of November, I was at the trand coffee-house, and saw the prisoner sitting in a box by himself—I saw a parcel on the table before him, it was within reach of his hand, very near him, immediately before him—I saw Ruthven go to the box and put his hand on the parcel, and the prisoner removed it—Ruthvan took it from him, and opended it on the table—It was not sealed at the time he took it—I saw the contents of the parcel—these plates and notes were in it—Moses was taken into custody—I went with him and Ruthvan in a coach to Bow-street—I heard Moses say, "I brought here the parcel; I was to receive some money for it, is the little man taken into custody likewise? then I have been sold".
COURT. Q. Repeat that? A. He said, "I have brought the parcel along with me to receive some money, is the little man taken into custody?"—I do not remember Ruthvan's answer—I think he said not quite, yes nor no—he gave him no answer about it, and then he said "I have been sold," or "I am sold"—Flaum came over with me to this country—he acted under my directions inh all that he did.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Was it not part of his instructions
to get into the confidence of persons engaged in making Austrian and other foreign notes? A. Yes—he received money for his support, and for payments he would incur—he was to ask to be introudced to persons connected with making such notes—I did not direct him what he was to say, but merely to agree to their offers—he does not deserve the title of a spy—he is no spy—he was directed by the government, knowing that forgeries of Austrian and other notes are manufactured here to get into the confidence of such people to direct them, I cannot pronounce him a spy—he was to get into their conidence, and detect them, in conformity to the law of England—not to do any thing contrary to the law of England—the Austrian government directed him to assume a different name.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. When you arrived in this country, did you see Sir Frederick Roe? A. I did; I stated the purpose for which I came, and he commissioned Ruthvan to assist me.
SAMUEL FLAUM (through an interpretter.) I came over to this country on the 2nd of August, this year, and afterwards saw Moses, the prisoner—I met him at a coffee-house, and agreed to meet him next day—he said he had 100 Polish notes, or pieves, ready, which he would sell to me, with the plates, two of which notes he showed me—I call this note a piec (looking at one)—I told him I did not want Polish notes, but Asustrian—he was always running after me, pressing me to buy the Polish notes, which I deferred from time to time—the second or third day afterwards he showed me the plate at his lodging—(looking at one) he showed me this one, and he showed me one with the name of phillips at the bavk of it—he showed me several, but I am certain of that one—a meeting was appointed between me and Moses, at the Strand coffee-house—I had to pay him 5l. as a balance of an account at I that meeting, and he was to deliver me 104 pieces, with the plates—I gave information of the meeting to Mr. Saltzmaun before this meeting—Moses gave me a Polish note, and a Prussian note—I showed the Polish note to Mr. Saltzmaun the following day, and gave it to him afterwards—I received the note from Moses four or five days before, I apprehnd—he was to deliver the notes and several plates to me at the Strand coffee-house.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. In the bargin for the purchase of the plates you made with Moses, did you act under the authority of the government or Mr. Saltzmaun? A. I told Mr. Saltzmaun every thing—he had nothing to do with the bargin for the plates—I represented myself to Moses as a merchant from Vienna—I made the acquaintance of Israel Marks subsequently, at the latter end of october, or November, before Moses was taken into custody, eight or ten days—he told me that Moses and him were at variance—Moses had nver been to Marks' with me—he did not go with me to the King's-bench prison to see Marks—he did not go with me to the prison at all—I think not—he may have been, but I do not recollect it.
Q. What did you go to the King's Bench prison for? A. They told me Marks' had some friends at Birmingham, who would make 10, 000 pieces—they did not give me a moment's peace—I had no transaction with Marks—I showed him an Austrian note in the King's Bench—I did not make any bargain with him—I did not want anything—I showed him an Austrian, note, and he kept it as day or two—I merely wished to know whether there was any supply of them, because Marks told me they were always ready—I had been at the Strand Coffee-house before moses was taken into custody—I think the same day—I think I have been there with Mr. Saltzmaun and
taken some coffee—I was there when Moses was sitting there—I came in and asked for some breakfast or luncheon—It was breakfast with me—I had not taken any thing to eat the whole day—It may have been breakfast, or coffee, or any thing—Moses and I were sitting together before Ruthven came in, but it did not last a moment—moses brought the parcel, which he out on the table, and left there—Moses was sitting with another person, whom I do not know, drinking coffee together—I did not go out, leaving Moses these with the parcel to keep for me, till I came back—when I was going out, Moses was then only taking it out of his pocket—I never had the parcel in my possession, but he had sjown it me before—I can certainly swear that I did not give moses the parcel to keep for me—when I paid him the 5l. then it would only become my property, for me to receive it.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. When you came to the Strand Coffee-house, did you bring that or any other parcel with you? A. Not any thing—I only saw the parcel in the Strand Coffee-house, when it was about to be taken away—It was never in my possession—I could not get it—there is such confusion abut the whole business, that I cannot recollect whether I saw Moses take it out of his pocket—I asked Moses if he had it with him, and he said, "Yes," putting his hand upon his pocket—he was sitting opposite to me.
MR. SALTZMAUN. I have a Polish note, which I received from Flaum some days before the apprehension of Moses—this is it—he showed it me before he gave it me—I had no authority from the Polish Government.
STANISLAS ADELTE . I am comptroller of bank notes in the Royal Polish Bank. The Emperor Nicolas is King of Poland—there are cash notes in this form circulated in Poland—they are issued by the Government, and received in payment—these impressions appear to me to have been taken from thisplate—I have examined them before—they are forgeries undoubtedly—this note (produced by Mr. Saltzmaun as received from moses) appears to me to be from this plate—the signatures to it are forged.
COURT. Q. Do you know the hand-writiing of the persons whose signatures they profess to be? A. Yes, my Lord.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Do you see the words piec and zloytch? A. Yes; and 1824 and Rohu—these words are upon every genuine Polish note—this note would not be received, because it would be forged—the word Roku, in connexion with the figures 1824, do not show that this note was issued in 1824—It was issued in 1828, but the decree ordered that they must have upon them the year 1824—Nicolas, the Emperor of Russia is King of Poland—he reigns in Poland—I have seen him at Warsaw, acting as king—these forged cash notes are now in circulation in my country—I have brought here from Warsaw sixteen pieces, which were presented at the office, and not with standing the bank saw that they were forged, the bank ordered that they should be paid, not to make a great noise, that the bank might save their credit.
JURY. Q. Are they impression from the same plates? A. Yes; they appear to me to be the same—I have them here.
COURT. Q. Such notes as these have been circulated? A. Yes; I think from the same plate.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. You and the officers of the bank
would know that they were forgeries? A. Yes; but the people might very well be deceived by them—the decree mentions the words in these ornaments, and in the whole form, all that appears.
The prisoner pepeated his defence on the former trial, commencing at page 274, line 9 from the button, "About a week after," to the and.
GUILTY . Aged 56.—Judgment respited.
Before Mr. Justice Littledale.
291. THOMAS HARRIS was indicted for feloniously forging a promissory note in the Polish language for five guldens, with intent to defraud Nicolas King of Poland,—2nd COUNT, stating it to be an undertaking for the payment of money,—3rd COUNT, calling it a warrant,—4th COUNT, calling it an order.—4th other COUNTS, for offering, uttering, disposing of, and putting off the same, with like intent.—8 other COUNTS, with intent to defraud a foreign state, calld poland—6 other COUNTS, omitting to set out the instrument.
SAMUEL FLAUM . I came to this country on the 2nd of August last. I was afterwards introduced to the prisoner—he is a Jew—we conversed together in Hebrew—he showed me a Polish note, and told me that two thousand and a half of these notes had latly been made—he proposed to me to purchase some of them—I said, "I could not them"—I wished to have Austrian notes—he said nothing more then, but subsequently, when we became more acquainted, he gave me a Polish note—he said they were good, there that were only two thousand five hundred of them made, and he wished to sell me some of them—he said he had got them made for a certain person, but he did not say for whom—he said they were well made, that he had a quantity of them made, and he gave me one—I do not recollect all that was said, but I communicated every thing at the time, to Mr. saltzmaun—I showed the note I received from harris, to Mr. Saltzmaun, either the same day, or the next day—that was the first Polish note I had in my possession—I had no other polish note in my possession—I saw Mr. Saltzmaun take the number of that note—he then returned it to me, and on the 9th of November I delivered it back to Mr. Saltzmaun.
Cross-examined by MR. JONES. Q. Where did you see Harris on that occasion? A. In Whitechapel, in a public-house—I do not recollect the sign—I think, to my belief or memory, it was in Whitechapel, but it may be Houndsditch, we were in both places—I cannot recollect which it was—Marks was present at fiorst, but at the time the note was shown to me, Marks was not present—what I speak is the truth—I think marks was not present—I cannot answe it in any better way—I cannot tell at what time of the day it was—I cannot tell whether it was day light or dark—e being so many times together, it is impossible to recollect—I cannot tellwhether it was the sun or the moon that was shining—I cannot recollect what part of the house it was in—Mr. Saltzmaun took minutes of it every day, to them you mut refer—I was neither at the top of the house nor the bottom—all our conversation was in two places—we always took beer or coffee together—I cannot recollect whether it was a public room—I do not recollect, perfectly, whether it was in Mark's house, or in a public-house that the note was shown to me—I have only known Mr. Adelte since he has been in England—I had not seen him before Harris showed me the note—the number of it was written down—Mr.
Saltzmaun wrote it down, and I also wrote it on a separate piece of paper—I did not about that time receive any Polish notes from any other persons—that was the first Polish note I saw in England—I had not been employed in a similar way by the Austrian or any other government before—the government of Vienna sent for me from Cracow—I am a native of Cracow, and there I know these notes, because they ae current there—I was sent for from Vienna, by the Consul—I had resided twelve years at Vienna—I had not known Mr. Saltzmaun—the name of the Consul at Cracow is Lawrence—I never had any transaction with the Consul before—thank God I have always been a merchant—I came here from conscientious motives—I do not require to be paid one penny—I expect to be paid account of my expenses—I exchanged the money when I left, and brought it with me—I have not made up my account, and do not know whether I have spent the whole, or how many florins I have in my pocket—I may have about 9l. or 10l., left, but not more—my expenses are all that I require—I never applied to any one in this country to get me any Austrian, or Polish, or Prussian notes manufactured—I did not come over here for the purpose of getting notes manufactured—I knew very well that they could not be made in six weeks—It was for notes already made that I paid the 30l.
Q. Did you not tell me yesterday that you paid the 30l. to defray the expense of preparing the Austrian notes? A. I did not say that I paid it, but Harris required 30l., for preparing the plates—I said that Harris required the 30l., not that I paid it, and that if they were not ready in six weeks, I required the 30l. to be paid back again—Harris told me be wanted the 30l. to prepare the plates, and I paid it him—when Harris showed me the plates; then I understood that the notes were to be made from those plates; but previous to that I supposed they were all ready—I never said to any person, that if he could get such notes made I would purchase them—I never spoke about any but what were made—I know a person named Farmer—I never said to him, on the Royal Exchange, that I wanted somebody to make me notes of the Austrian Bank—I never said that I wanted to make, only to purchase—It is not in my nature to do things of that kind—I did not ask Farmer if he could tell me of any one who could make me some Austrian notes, but he told me there were several of all amounts ready made, and I could purchase—he said there were a large company, and I could get any thing that I wanted—I am aware that it requires a great deal of labour to make such a plate, common sense would tell me that, nor could I do it in six months—I never had any thing to do with the engraving of any plate, but I am acquainted with persons who set diamonds and stones—I had never seen a plate of any note before I came to this country—I never saw such a plate in the hands of any of the members of my own family—I have never seen or heard of any one in Cracow who has been charged with having such a plate in his possession, or having circulated such notes—I have been told such notes came from Cracow.
COURT. Q. To where? A. A. These notes came from London to Cracow.
MR. JONES. Q. Did you know any person in Cracow, who was charged with having forged notes or paqltes in his possession? A. I have heard that a person has been charged with having such notes in his possession—I know that person—his name is Hirsh Koerner—he has been a lodger of
mine, in my house, and that is the way that it came out about the Banknotes—he is no relation of mine—he is still under arrest in Lemberg, and it is not known what has been done with him—I was not engaged in business with him—I was charged with the same thing myself, at the same time that Koerner was, and I told that to the Consul himself, when I was applied to, to come to England—I was apprehended, but proved myself perfectly innocent—I was in confinement, at Wickness, in the interior of Austria, for five or six months—I was tried upon that charge, because it was supposed that I was guilty—there was no trial—I was liberted without a trial, the government sent me my passport immediately afterwards, and I went home.
Q. Do you mean that you and Koerner were taken into custody together, or at different places? A. I don't know when koerner was taken, I went to my children, and was taken into custody at Napolowitz, in Austria—I can swear that neither a forged note nor a plate was found in my possession at that time, nor at any othe time in my life—I don't know why I was taken into custody—when I went back to Cracow, I called on the Consul immediately respecting the charge against myself, and in about six or eight weeks afterwards the orde came about this business—neithe the Consul nor I knew any thing of this business when I first called on him.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. Did you know any thing about coming to England till the order arrived from the Austrian government, requiring you to go to Vienna? A. I knew nothing of it till they sent to me, how should I know?—Koerner lodged in my house, at Cracow, at the time this charge was brought against him—I only know what Koerner's wife said, that it was for getting forged Bank-notes from England—I never in my life had any connexion with Koerner, or any other person respecting any forged notes—I have made inquiry, and never could get any information, as to whether there was any judicial inquiry made into my conduct—one told me one thing and one another—I was set at liberty with the greatest honour at the time I received my passport—no one spoke to me about mycoming to England till the order came from Vienna, two moths afte I returned to Cracow—they wrote to the Consul, and he communicated the order to me—In consequence of that I went to Vienna—I there received an order to proceed with Mr. Saltzmaun, and to make daily communications to him with respect to what took place—Cracow is a free town, under the protection of Austria—Koerner was taken up about forged notes—I don't know what notes—when iarrived in this country, I spoke to Marks, as I stated yesterday—he is a jew—he introduced me to Harris—saw harris almost every day, from the time I was introduced to him, till the 9th of November, except when I was at Birmingham—we used to go to different public-houses together—I paid harris a few pounds of the money I received frim Mr. Saltzmaun.
MR. F. SALTZMAUN. I am Accountant-General of the Austrian National Bank. Flaum came with me to England, and I employed him here in the business of tracing out these notes—he reported to me what he did almost every day—I took down what he so reported—he knew what I took down each time—many of the sheets which I took it down on are signed by him—about the 21st of August, he brought me one polish note—he stated how he became possessed of it, but he did not leave it with me at that time—he took it away again—I saw the note many times aftewards—he gave it me about the time of the prisoner's apprehension—when he first showed it to me I took down the number immediately—the number is down in my
memorandum-book, it is 2, 375, 162—this is the same note, I am sure—It is the first Polish note I received from flaum—the government—the Bank applied to Flaum about his coming to England, because the Consul wrote word that he had made a communication to him—I heard that Koerner was charged with forging Austrian notes.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. When did you take the memorandum from which you read the number of the note? A. When Flaum first came—this was the first note he brought me—he brought othes afterwards—when he was introduced to me, I knew he had been six months in prison—I stated yesterday that I knew he was a respectable merchant, because he was proved to be perfectly innocent.
Q. Do you keep a man in prison six months who is perfectly innocent? A. It is a misfortune Sir, but it is the custom of the county—Koerner's trial is nt over yet—I know how it was that Flaum was discharged.
Q. Did you know any thing of Flaum at the time he was in prison? A. Yes.
Q. Did you not tell us yesterday that you knew nothing of him till he was introduced to you to come to England? A. I heard that Koerner was taken, and then by an untoward mistake, I dare say Flaum was taken, and afterwards it appeared that he was the person who gave the information, on the 29th of August, 1834, that koerner had forged notes in his possession—I know the whole transaction, by communication of the authorities to the Government at Vienna.
Q. Do you mean to say that this man, having given information of another person having committed an offence, was taken up for giving this informatin, and committed to prison? A. Yes; I cannot say otherwise, but the Bank thought him innocent, and worthy to be intrusted.
Q. Why did you introduce this man to us yesterday, as a respectable man in Cracow, when you knew he was in prison six months? A. He was an honest man—It was not a condition of hs discharge that he should come here—Koerner is continually on trial, and continually in custody, and his trial is not over yet—I do not know what house Flaum lived at—I have never been there I do not care to know whether he has any mercantile transactions.
Q. have you any knowledge of his being a respectable merchant? A. I have no knowledge of him, but his being called by the Government, and intrusted to come here—because they call him so at Vienna—I call every man a respectable man, till I find the reverse.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. On the Continent are persons called merchants who are smal dealers? A. Yes; the French word is marchand "traders"—Flaum was declared innocent of this charge—I have no other connexion with him but this—I first saw him at my office at the Bank—he had at Vienna the character of a decent, respectable person, in his line of life.
GEORGE RUTHVEN . I am an officer of Bow-street, I was appointed to assist Mr. Saltzmaun in the business he came over about, by order of Sir Frederick Roe—I saw the prisone in the company of Flaum, at two separate places—I took Harris into custody, on the 9th of November, at the Star coffee-house, in Crown-street, Fiusbury—I afterwards searched his lodging.
MR. STANISLAS ADELTE . I am comptroller of Bank notes in the Royal Bank of Poland. The Emperor Nicolas is now King of Pland—(looking at a note) there are notes in this form nw circulating in Poland—they are
issued by the polish Government, and received in payment of taxes—they are paid at the Bank, and re-issued—they are used in pursuance of a decree which prescribes the form in which they are to be drawn—It gives the form of the note, both the body and the margin, with the ornamental part, and the marks in the margin, as well—this is a forged note—I know the handwriting of the two commissaries whose signatures they purport to bear—It is not their hand-writing—It is imitated—(the witness here translated the note as in the former case.)
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Is that a note for five guilders? A. Yes; it is not perfectly done, but done well enough to deceive somebody—It might deceive a tradesman—I cannot say.
Q. Is that one of the same sort as you said yesterday were very bad? A. I do not know—It is about the same—I cannot say whether it is better or worse.
MR. ATTONEY-GENERAL. Q. Have you known notes of the Polish Bank not better executed which were forged, circulated, and brought for payment? A. Yes; those that I have brought with me are quite the same, and were brought to our Bank and paid—I think guilders and florins are the same.
COURT. Q. Is florin a term used in Austria, and gulden a term used in Poland? A. In Poland it is zlotych, which I think is gulden.
Prisoner's Defence. I have very little to say—I am molested by a parcel of foreign snakes and consipirators who laid a plan to take me—I can only say, my Lord and Gentlemen, I am as innocent as a new-born child, of any knoweledge of doing wrong—I say, as I said before, I never knew any thing, or had any knowledge that I was guilty of doing any thing wrong—the witness presented himself as a banker, and the first merchant in the country he came from—he now turns out to be a desperate character—I leave it entirely to your good sense and judgment.
PHILIP FARMER . I live at No.16. Charlotte-street, Blackfriars'-road, I have seen the witness Flaum—he came to my house four months ago—I met him on the Royal Exchange with another gentleman named Mench, who is gon to Paris—he was another polish Jew—I knew him a long time.
Q. Did Flaum or not ask you if you could introduce him to any persons who make for him Austrian or Polish notes? A. He did.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. What countryman are you? A. From Russian Poland—I am by birth a Pole, and a jew—I have been in England twently Years, and a have been in the diamond and jewellery trade—I never dealt in false notes in my life—I do not know Herach Koerner—I never had any dealings with him in my life—I have had no dealings with my own countrymen since I left it—I have never traded to Poland—I never exported goods to any part of the world—neither paper goods nor any other—I do not know Max a tailor—a person named Mench introduced me to Flaum, he makes blacking for shoes—I have been acquainted with him eighteen months or two years—he introduced me to Kerschbaum because he had an immense deal of money, and wanted to buy goods—he called himself Kerschbaum to me—I had never seen him before I met him on the Royal Exchange—he did not ask me the first time I saw him, to introduce him to some persons who would make forged notes—I gave him my card, and he said he would call on me—I met him several times on the Royal Exchange—he did not ask me to get him some forged notes at the first beginning—he has met three or four times—he did not ask me whether I could make him some forged notes—he said he wanted to speak to
me privately, and I gave him my card—he came to my house, and said be wanted to buy goods. Q. Was it on the Royal Exchange he talked to you about getting forged notes manfactured? A. No—It was at my home—he said nothing to me on the Royal Exchange about forged notes—he said to my house, and said at last, "This business won't do, "and took hold of an Austrian note—he said he wanted to buy goods—I said, "Very well," and went with him to several respectable houses—he afterwards said he did not want to buy goods—he wanted forged notes—he asked me if I could get him some, or if any one could make them, he would pay any thing—I said "Such a business I don't understand, byt if you will have the goodness to go with me to Cheltenham"—he said, "I have got money"—I said, "If you will go along with me to Cheltenham or Liverpool, I will introduce you to somebody, but you must give me 200l. or 300l."
COURT. Q. What was it he asked you about making them? A. He said, "Do you know a clever man who can make it, I have got an Austrian note"—I said, "If you like to go with me to Cheltenham, if you pay me well, I will show you, I will introduce you to such a party, a manufacturer of notes, where you will have any thing".
Q. Did you know such a manufacturer? A. Not I; I only said, "If you will give me 300l."—he said, "Yes"—he went to the coach-office, and paid the fare, and said to-morrow at six o'clock he would fetch the money—I would have kept the 300l., and turned him out of doors immediately—I did not get it—he lent me 5l.—I was obliged to give him a little note—I owe Mr. Kerschbaun 5l.—he wanted to go next morning by the coach—I said, "Where is the money?"—he said, "Oh, the money I will give you on the road"—I said, "I will tell you I have spent two or three days with you"—I went with him to a respectable banker, and introduced him—I give my card to the banker, and said Kerschbann came from Vienna, and has got thousands and thousands—I did not go to Cheltenham, or Liverpool—If I had got hold of the money, I would have turned him out of doors, and not given him the money.
Q. Your object was to cheat him of the money? A. No, not cheat him—I would have given half to the poor, and kept half myself—I should have thought that proper—for he should not go and buy false money—I did not know that he was going by a false name at that time—I did not see him any more after that—when he found I was not capable of such a thing he ran away from me—I was not in court yesterday—I only cause this morning, and went up stairs—I saw him here, and came down, and said this man wanted me to get him people to buy notes—I am not acquainted with the prisoner—I have seen him hundreds of times, but am not acquainted with him—he is a Jew—I do not know what countryman he is—I have seen him go into the Synagogue, and have spoken to him a number of times—we have gone to the same Synagogue three or four years—I have known him, but have not spoken to him often—I may have met him in the street—I have talked to him several times on the Exchange—I have never talked to him about paper goods—I never knew he dealt in such things—I have only said, "How do ye do?" or, "How is business?"
Q. What business did you inquire about? A. Any thing in the cloth way—sometimes he has got linen to sell—I might not have spoken to him half a dozen times since I knew him—I asked him once or twice "Have you any thing to sell?"—he said, "No"—I never asked him to sell me paper—I
have known Mordecai Moses very well for eighteen years—I knew his father when I came over to England—he goes by the name of Marsh—I have seen him and Kerschbaum together five or six times, but what was his business I do not know—I never introduced Moses to Kerschbaum, and never even heard any of their conversation—I can speak Hebrew—I never heard them talk about notes—I have seen them together five or six times—I was not here last night.
MR. PAYNE. Q. How came you here to-day? A. I saw it in the newspaper—a party read the paper to me, about the trial—I understood it was coming on again to-day, and came to hear it—when I saw this man in the witness-box, I came and gave this information—I said "This is the fellow;" and I came down directly—I had no objection to get his money from him; certainly not.
(Lipman Myers, of Sadlers'-hall-court, Gravel-lane; Michael Jacobs, Farrier, 10, Bell-lane, Spitalfields; Henry Lyons, general dealer, Ebeneser-square, Houndsditch; Isaac Abrahams, inn-keeper, Manchester; Solomon Harris, general dealer, Elliston-street, Aldgate; Matthew Nathan, Ebenezer-square, Houndsditch; Levy Myers, glass-cutter, Angel-court, Gravel-lane; and Francis Phillips, tailor, Carter-street, Houndsditch, deposed to the prisoner's good character.)
GUILTY . Aged 65.— Judgment Respited.
OLD COURT. Monday, December the 21st.
Before Mr. Justice Littledale.
292. ROBERT BALLS was indicted for feloniously forging, on the 1st of September, a certain promissory note, for the payment of money, (in the Polish language, the translation of which was set out in the indicement)—3 other COUNTS, varying the description of the instrument—4 other COUNTS, for offering and disposing of the same, &c.—24 other COUNTS, varying the manner of laying the charge.
MESSRS. PLATT and ADOLPHUS conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES LABON . I am an engravor, and live in Fann-street, Cripplegate. In September, 1834, the prisoner came to my house, and brought a plate with him, and wished to know how much I could print them at per thousand—he called them "Mining Tickets"—I told him the price, and he went away—he came back the same day, and brought with him a small backing plate, and two oval pieces of copper—a backing plate is for printing the back of the ticket—this is the backing plate he brought—I believe six or seven were printed from it—an objection was then made to a mark at the back—Balls stated that he must have a new plate for the back, in lieu of that one, and asked me the price of it—I told him my part of it, which was the outlining the letter part, would be about 2s. 6d.—I told him when I had outlined it, I could proceed no further without taking it to the ornamental engraver—the new plate, which I outlined, I took to David Forman, in Fetter-lane, to have the engine part done; which is laying the ground, that it might afterwards go to the machiner—I took it to Forman to be done, in company with Balls, and received it back from Forman, in a few days—this is the plate—It is the larger plate which I did the outlining on; the back plate—the front plate was already engraved when I received it—this is the front plate I received—I took off five thousand impressions from the front and the back plate—one is the back and
the other is the front plate—I took off five thousand impressions from the front plate, and the corresponding impressions from the back plate.
COURT. Q. Were the impressions of the front and back plate on the same paper? A. The same on one side, and the other on the reverse—I was paid for my work by Balls—I am positive these plates have been used a great deal, since I engraved them.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. How do you know that the plates the Counsel handed over to you are the same plates you had a communication with Balls about? A. By my own mark on them at the back of the front plate—these marks of my hammer—I am confident of the marks, and I know the work of the plate—I could state it if it was thirty years longer, positively—I am speaking of the back plate and swear to the figures I have altered on the front plate—I swear to both plates—here are two number ones that I put in, and I sloped them—I am positive of my own work—you may as well tell me I am not half positive but fully positive—I can swear to the plate in the presence of my God—I altered the numbers twice—two noughts have been stamped in on the plate not engraved—I can tell my own work—I say that is my own work, and I stick to that—I cannot answer for another engraver, but I know my own work—I have seen thousands of plates, but I can swear to my own work—I cannot tell about other men's transactions—I can swear to the plate which I have made—I can swear to my own workmanship—If another man likes to make No. 1 in a different manner, that is no business of mine, but it is my number—some men make it in their way, and I made it in my way—you can another engraver, and ask him that—talk to me from now to next week, you will get no other answer—I do not consider there is much difference between my No. 1 and another engraver's, but I know it is my own making, because I am positive to my own work.
MR. PLATT. Q. At whose desire did you alter the numbers twice? A. At Ball's desire—I cannot tell what the numbers were on it when I printed the 5, 000—I took no notice what the figures were together, only I such and such figures to his satisfaction, and the printing went on again—here is No. 1, and No, 9, which have got in since it has been out of my possession—here is 5, and 0—here are four figures different since I have had the plate—there are seven figures in all—the 1 and 3 are made by me—here are four figures of my make on this plate, two on each side and there are seven figures on each side, corresponding with each other—by-the-by I see here is a difference, here is a 5 and 3 here—oh, it is all right—I am correct, here are two figures on each side which I made—In order to make the alteration which Balls desired, it was necessary to scrape the plate out, put it on the anvil, and with the hammer to bring it to the surface again—here are the marks of my hammer on the back now.
COURT. Q. Are the marks of your hammer on both plates? A. On the facing plate, not on the backing plate—they are on the back of the front plate—the back plate is new—there has been no taking out of any thing there—I know it by my outlining of the letter—I know my own letter—this fac-simile above the machine part is not my execution—that has been done since I had the plate.
DAVID FORMAN . I am an ornamental engraver, and live in Fetter-lane. I remember Labon and Balls calling on me on the 12th of September, 1834—they brought this plate—the letters pieo were outlined, and the square—Labon said he wished it machining—I said I did not do the machinery, and
recommended them to Bacon, as he kept a machine, and I was busy at the time—he said they were in a hurry to get it done, and would feel obliged to me to take it to Bacon, and get it done for them—I consented, and took it to Bacon, and gave him instructions what to do with it—he put in the ground-work of the machine; but previous to that they could not go on with the machine-work without the ovals were prepared—Bacon did the work, and returned it to me—I gave it to Labon—I believe it was on Monday, the 12th of September, that I received it—I returned it to him on the Friday or Saturday following.
Q. Did you make any inquiry in Balls's presence as to the object of engraving it? A. Yes; I asked them if it was not a foreign label for foreign goods—Labon said he believed it was for a mining ticket—Labon paid me for my work—I had 6s. for machining, and what I did—I paid Mr. Bacon for the machining.
Cross-examined by MR. JONES. Q. Then, by the appearance of the plate, you judged it to be label for foreign goods? A. Yes, I did not understand it—Balls spoke in English to me—If I had been told it was a label for foreign goods I should have believed it—an Englishman not acquainted with the language would believe so, if told so by a foreigner—or a mining ticket—I never knew Balls before, I know nothing of him—It is very common for jewellers in London to be agents for taking orders for engraving and stationers also—I do not know whether Balls is a person of that kind—I only had the back plate—I did not have both plates—If this faceplate was sent to me to engrave, I should decline doing it, not understanding the work, and it not being in my line.
EBENEZER BACON . I am an engine-turner, and live at 130, Chancery-lane; that is my place of business. I remember on the 14th of September, last year, Forman bringing me a plate to have a waved back-ground, and also these ovals were to be struck in by the engine—the letters were on it in outline when brought to me—the same letters as are now on it—I did the waved lines—the ovals were not out when brought to me as it was understood to be a label, a cheap job, and was wanted in a very great hurry, and they would not go to the expense of it—this is the plate that was brought to me—It is my work—I returned it to Forman.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Are you quite certain that is the same plate as Forman brought to you? A. Quite so—I often have such plates, not particularly such as these—I know the plate by the background—I am positive of it, by the workmanship.
MR. ADOLPHUS, JUN. Q. Have you ever done waved lines on a plate with these letters on it any other time? A. Never.
SAMUEL FLAUM . I am a native of Cracow, in Poland. I was employed by the Austrian Government to come to this country this year—I came in company with Mr. Saltzmaun, and took up my residence in Gun-yard—I became acquainted with a person named Max, a tailor—and in consequence of what passed between him and me, he introduced me to Harris, and Harris introduced me to Balls, on the 24th of August—we met the first time in a public-house, in Great or Little Bussell-street, near the turnpike in Whitechapel—I do not know the sign—It is No. 32.—I spoke to Balls in the public-house, and gave him money—I could understand what he said, because Harris interpreted—I spoke in Hebrew to Harris—Balls did not understand Hebrew—when I spoke to Harris, he always turned to Balls, and spoke to him, and Balls spoke to Harris, and then Harris spoke to me—we were together a quarter or half an hour in Russell-street, and then we went to another
place—I gave Balls 30l.—Harris told me Turner was an honest man, and I might give the money—Harris mentioned the amount—(looking at a hill) Balls wrote this bill of exchange, and Turner accepted it—Balls signed and indorsed it—Harris also indorsed it—Turner has accepted it—he was present—It was arranged that I was to have security for the money, and Turner was introduced as a very honest man—he was not in the room when I went there—Harris first brought Balls, and then Turner came—I do not know whether Harris went for him, or how it was—I never saw Turner before, nor since—I do not know where he lives now—he lived next door to the public-house at that time—I know that, because, after the business respecting the bill was finished, Turner gave us tea and refreshment—I saw Balls many times after that meeting—Harris was always present when I saw him—he acted as interpreter between us on those occasions—I saw Balls and Harris on the 1st of September, at the public-house, near the Bank—you go down some steps to it—I do not know the name of the house—Balls gave me this Polish book-note—Harris was not by at the time, but came in about a quarter of an hour afterwards—I showed the note to Mr. Saltzmaun, and took it back again—and on the 9th of November, the day the prisoners were taken into custody, I gave it to Mr. Saltzmaun.
Cross-examined by MR. JONES. Q. Had you a ring with a stone which you employed Balls to get engraved for you? A. Yes; I gave him a watch-guard chain to gild—he said he could get it done for me, that was a month after we became acquainted.
COURT. Q. Did not you pay the 30l. to Harris? A. No, to Balls he was sitting at the table, and took the money—I paid the 30l. in notes 12l. in English money, 34 ducats, and 1l. in Dutch money, they took the ducats at 10s., if there should be any loss in taking them for 10s. I was to pay the difference—Harris, Balls, and I were sitting together—I saw Balls take the whole of the money—Harris told me to pay the money, and in six weeks I should have the 1000 note; sthat the money must be paid in advance—he showed me the Polish note on the 1st of September, at the public-house near the Bank.
Q. Did not he show it to you as a specimen of his skill in his work? A. He spoke to me, but I did not understand him, because Harris was not present at that time—he took me to the window, and showed me the note—I thought at the time when I last gave my evidence it was shown to me as a specimen—on that day nothing was said about the note—I did not think about the note that day at all—he showed me the note—Balls held it up to the window, and we looked to see whether it was well performed—I am forty years old—I have always been in trade from the age of fifteen or eighteen years.
Q. Was Herach Koerner a lodger of yours at Cracow? A. Yes; he is now in prison on a charge of being concerned in forged notes in Lemberg—he was taken in August last year—I was taken into custody on the same charge a fortnight or three weeks afterwards—I was put in Wickness prison—that is upwards of thirty miles from Lemberg—I do not know whether Koevner has been tried yet—I was in prison on the charge about six months or rather more.
Q. Have you ever given evidence against Koerner? A. I mentioned it to the Consul, in the first instance when I heard he was concerned in forged notes—at one place I gave evidence against him, but he was not in custody at the time; we were examined together—whe he was in custody I was obliged to say every thing I knew, which was communicated to me—I
did give evidence aqainst him about the forged notes—at that time I was not confined—I gave the evidence against him before I was taken into custody—I was taken into custody about a fortnight or three weeks after—I was the cause of Koerner being taken, I said so repeatedly—I gave the information against him.
Q. Do you expect to have to give evidence again against Koerner when you go back? A. How can I tell whether they will ask me? I have not made any agreement or promise to give evidence again, I do not expect to give evidence again.
COURT. Q. Were you sent over here in any way respecting the business of Koerner? A. No; but respecting forged notes in general.
MR. PAYNE. Q. Were you discharged from prison on condition that you should give what evidence you could against Koerner? A. I do not know any thing at all about it, I do not even know why I was taken into custody—I was not told when I was discharged that I should be required to give further evidence against Koerner—I was never in custody before—I was taken into custody in Napolowitz—I gave information about Koerner in the first instance to the consul at Cracow—I left Cracow and went to Napolowitz, about a week, or fortnight, or three weeks after, I gave that information—my children resided there, and I was with them for five or six days, I went to see them—Napolowitz is two miles from Crawcow—Koerner had lodged with me for six months—he had been in London—he lived in the yard—he did not live in the same house with me—It was the lower part of our shops—he lived in my house, but I did not live in it—that house is about as far as from here to Pall-mall from the house I lived in.
Q. When you were in prison, did you undergo any examination before the Magistrate? A. They merely asked me why I was in prison, and I could not tell them—an officer of justice took me into custody, and he asked me if I was connected with Koerner—I said, I was not—In our country we are obliged on tell what we know—I frequently applied to the Court to be examined on it—I always volunteered stating what I had done in it—I have had several interviews with Koerner, and he told me about the notes which were made in England, and gave me every information about it.
Q. Did not you swear on Saturday that you had known Koerner many years and he was an intimate friend of yours? A. I never could say he was a friend of mine, for he never was—I scarcely knew him at all—his wife first lodged with me, and afterwards he came to lodge there himself—he did not live in the house—I carried on my business at the house—It has three large shops, and at the back are two small rooms—half the house he lived in belongs to my children, and half to another person—no part of the house belonged to myself—I was in the habit of going backwards and forwards to the house—when Koerner was at home I went there—I went there when I liked.
Q. Do you mean to swear you knew about Koerner being concerned in forged notes only from what Koerner told you? A. Yes; and his wife—I was never employed by the police to get information about people, before this—I never asked to have any thing after this business is over, and do not expect it—I am not aware of any relationship between Koerner and myself—I do not know that his wife is related to me—she may be a very distant relation, but I do not know—I have a wife living—I do not know whether Koerner's wife is any relation to her—I have know his wife about
twelve months, the time she lived there—I have not known her longer than koerner—I never had any communication with her—I never spuke to her—she lodged with me at Cracow, while koerner was in London—his wife is not living at my house now—I do not recollect how long she has left—she is not in prison—I do not know where she is—she went to koerner's father to live, when she left me.
Q. You have said you do not know the sign of the public-house in Whitechapel where the interview was about the note, what day was it? A. I do not recollect exactly—It was on the 24th—It must have been subseuent to that, that Balls showed me the Polish note—It was about the middle of the week—It may have been on Sunday, but I think it was on Wednesday—it was between twelve and two o'clock in the day—I think so, but I am not quite sure—It was in the day-time, because we went to the window with the note—I have understood a little of the questions that have been put to me by the counsel, but not the most part—I employed Max to make this cloak for me—I have paid him for it with my own money.
Q. How much money did you take of your own from Cracow, when you went to Vienna? A. Why should I have money with me, and put myself to expense?—I did not have any—I paid for the cloak, it may be out of my own money, or it may be out of other money—I took money with me from Vienna—I did not get that from Mr. Saltzmann—I received it from the conductor of the Bank—I don't know whether I paid for the cloak out of my own money or that.
MR. PLATT. Q. Was Koerner absent from Vienna any time? A. Yes—during his absence his wife resided in my house—after he returned he went to live with his wife; but not in the same house—he went to reside two or three doors further off.
Q. After Koerner returned did you and him converse about forged notes? A. No; I only spoke to him to pay the rent—I never had any connexion with Koerner respecting forged notes—I communicated to the Consul every thing I heard from Koerner, the day after he left—I was never tried before a court—no one told me any thing—when I was discharged, they merely sent me a passport as a merchant, as usual, and dismissed me.
Q. Why did you go to Vienna? A. The Consul showed me a letter that I was to go to England, and told me the government required I should come to Vienna, and proceted to England I only reveived two hundered to enable me to come over to England—I am a Jew—Koerner is a Jew, and his wife Jewess.
Q. When this note was held up to the light could you see anything in the paper which could not be seen otherwise? A. The water-mark could be seen, and could not be seen otherwise—when I paid the 30l. on account of the notes, he told me they were to be Austrian notes, 1000 pieces, at 3s.—a Bank-note is a pieo—the notes were to be 50 florins each—the 30l. was only on account—I should have paid him the difference—they were Austrian notes—the 30l. was paid on the 24th of August.
MR. FRANCIS SALTZMAUN . I am Accountant-General of the National Bank of Austria. I was sent over to England by the Austrian government to make inquiries respecting forgeries—Samuel Flaum came with me—I when I first knew Flaum, he was at Vienna, and at liberty—I never knew him in confinement—Ihave heard he was, by official communication from the authorities—when I first came to this country, I applied to Sir Frederick Roe, at Bow-street, on the subject of my business—he gave me advice,
and directed George Ruthven, a Bow-street officer, to assist me—In what I did afterwards, I acted under the direction of Sir Fredrick Roe—I employed Flaum here on the business on which I came over—I gave him money for his expenses, both abroad and here—he had on the Continent four florins, or about 8s. a day, and 10s. in England—that was for his support, not for his expenses in travelling—he constantly accounted to me for the money he received from me—he had other money of me for payments, in consequence of the business he had to perform, and for that money he accounted in the same way as he did for the other—he gave an account to me almost every day of what he did in the business, and I took down memorandums instantly, at the time, of what he told me—I have them here—besides the reports I heard from Flaum I went about myself to watch him and the parties—I saw them many times—Ruthven sometimes went with me—I saw Flaum with Balls, Harris, and Mordecai Moses—the first time I saw them was about the 21st of August—I then saw him with Harris only, on the Royal Exchange—I saw him with Balls about the beginning of September, Harris was with them—after that I saw Flaum, Harris, and Balls together—I saw them at the Flower Pot Public-house—at the Eagle, and other places—several times at public-houses, and in the street—I was present when Balls was taken, at the Star coffee-house, in Crown-street, Finsbury, on the 9th of November—Harris and Balls were together—I had before that seen Harris and Flaum at the Auction Mart coffee-house, but not Balls—on the 1st of September, Flaum brought me a Polish note—I made a memorandum of the note at the time—this is the note—Flaum only showed me the note that day, but he gave it me afterwards—I think the last day before the prisoner's apprehension, or the same day.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. Did you yourself make any mark on the note? A. No, I did not—I took down the number, and the number I took down agrees with the note—I do not know the names of the commissioners which were on the note—I know the note, it is No. 3, 529, 478.
COURT. Q. When did you make that memorandum of the number? A. At the moment when Flaum showed it me—It was at the public-house, near the Auction Mart, that he received it—I know the note by the number, the whole appearance of it, and the water mark—It is the only note which I saw with water-marks—I saw no other—the water-mark is very dark—a florin in Austria is worth about 2s. in English money—In the German language we call them guldens—a Polish gulden is less then an Austrian golden—a florin is not a name used in Germany—It is a foreign word—French or English—a golden in Germany—It is a foreign word—In Poland, about 6d.—this note is in Polish.
STANISLAS ADELTE . I am comptroller of the Bank-note department in the Polish Bank. The King of Poland is the Emperor Nicolas the First—this note is drawn for five zlotych—I think the translation of zlotylch is golden or florin—I think it is quite the same—florin and gulden is always zlotych—It is always thirty Polish groschen.
COURT. If you offer a gulden in Germany, how many groschen should you get for it? A. A Prussian gulden would be five silver groschen, and a Polish gulden or florin would be thirty Polish groschen in copper.
MR. PLATT. Q. Is this a true note? A. I have examined it, and find it a forgery, but forged in so high a degree that it may deceive everybody who is not perfectly acquainted with them.
COURT. Q. Do you know the handwriting of the commissioners? A. Yes; that is well imitated.
MR. PLATT. Q. Will you be good enough to look at this piece of metal—Is this calculated to make the water-mark? A. It is right for imitating the water-mark that I find on this note.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. You told my friend that you knew that Nicolas the First is King of Poland—how did you know it? A. I am an officer nominated in his name, and sent here by his government—his orders are executed in the kingdom—I never heard him give orders—I never heard him speak—I have seen him where I have been—I saw them put the crown on his head at Warsaw, in a church—I have seen the Royal Commissioner write—his name is Warsaw, in a church—I have seen the royal comminssioner write—his name is stanislas count Szymanowski—this is not his writing, it is a good imitation of it—It is a very good imitation—It could deceive beady not will acquainted with it—I swore here on Friday, and Saturday, that the English word to denote zlotych, was gulden—I know that the Austrian coin is also named called florin—so florin in Polish signification and gulden are quite the same—In Poland they call it zlotych—they call it gulden in Germany, and I thought also in England—I have heard people in England call the zlotych a florin, but I do not remember who.
Q. What we want to know is, what is the English word—did you ever hear any person in England call the zlotych a florin? A. Yes; I think where I live I heard it in counting the Polish money, at Leicester'-place—If a person in Poland had an estate of fifty thousand zlotych a year, I should say in England, he was worth fifty thousand guldens, or florins—I think florin is most often used.
Q. Then if the word florin is most often used, how was it you stated on Friday, that the proper translation was gulden? A. I thought that is England it may be so, but the word is quite the same as to value.
Q. Now as to the forgery, will you venture to say that this is not a genuine note? A. Yes, surely—I have a genuine note here—I do not know the gentleman whose name is in the corner—I know his writing—this is similar to it—this is not his writing, because the note is forged—I do not remember that I ever saw the gentleman write his name—I have seen his writing—I know several gentleman named M----.—I have seen the Gentleman, but I do not remember his person—I am not certain whether he is dead or alive—I know Mr. Szymanowski well—I have seen him write signature only that this note is forged—I can see a difference between these and the genuine signature—It is not so perfectly made as it should be—I have seen several forged notes here, and several at Warsaw—I never saw a forged note abroad, with the water-mark to it—the watermark is, assuredly, one of the great distinctions between a genuine note and a forged one; but this has the water-mark.
Q. From what do you judge of the note being forged? A. Beside the signatures not being so perfect as they ought to be, I have observed it a long time, and have found that there are difference that assure me it is forged—I can see that the squares are larger in this note than in my genuine note—the colour of his note is the same, but it is not the same kinds of paper as our notes are—our notes are all on one sort of paper—there should not be any difference in them—a person in England, not understanding the Polish language, might take this to be a genuine note—the word "Roku," signifies the year—I persist in saying there is a difference in the size of these squares.
MR. PLATT. Q. Have you in Poland a coin called a shilling? A. No, Sir, we have not—the word "Szymonowski" in each of these notes has the same position, but the S is different—It is not so long in one as the other—In one of the, it comes under the letter.
COURT. Q. You say this is the only forged note you ever saw, with the water-mark? A. Yes, my Lord—I have seen no other forged Polish notes in England that those produced—the others are badly executed—this one is perfectly well executed—none of the others have any watermark—I never saw any Polish forged notes that had a water-mark, except this.
GEORGE RUTHVEN . By the direction of Mr. Saltzman and Sir Frederick Roe, I took Mordecai Moses into custody, at the Strand coffee-house, on the Strand side of Temple-bar, on the 9th of November—he had a parcel with him, which I took possession of—these three copper-plates, and this brass-plate, were in the parcel; and on the same day, I took this prisoner into custody, at the Star coffee-house, in Crown-street, Finsbury-square—I searched him, and took from his person a small bunch of keys and a pocket-box—I afterwards went to his lodging, No. 18, Ironmonger-street, St. Luke's—I found a portmanteau there, which one of the keys opened—I found this card-case there—It had this piece of paper in it, with at 5 upon it.
Cross-examined by MR. PATNE. Q. Look at this face-plate, and tell me, whether it is possible that this plate could have produced this note? A. I think it is not his plate that Produced it—It has got different names on it.
(The prisoner put in the same Defence as on his former trial; for which, see page. 275.)
(Richard Wilstead, cabinet-maker and upholsterer, 16, Sidney-street, Commercial-road, gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY. Aged 44.— Judgement Respited.
Second Jury, before Mr. Sergeant Arabin.
KENT LARCENIES, &c.
GUILTY . Confined Six Months.
295. THOMAS HOGBEN was indicted for stealing, on the 10th of December, 1 jacket, value 1l. 6s.; 1 waistcoat, value 8s.; and 1 pair of trowsers, value 16s.; the goods of James Ford ham; in a vessel on the navigable river Thames; to which he pleaded
GUILTY . Confined Three Months.
GEORGE SCOTT . I live at Gale's Row, Greenwich. I have lived with Mr. Joseph Rhodes nine years—he is a master tailor—on the morning of the 19th of November, a hen was taken from the roost from 3 chickens—I missed
it the same night—they had knocked the place through and got their hand in—I do not know the prisoner—I believe he has been there—the fowl is here.
WILLIAM HODSON . I live near Greenwich, and am a wire-worker, and keep a poulterer shop. I bought this fowl of the prisoner about a fortnight ago, about six o'clock in the evening—I had bought two of him before—he then told me they were his property and his father objected to his keeping them—I did not question him about this one.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
Prisoner's Defence. The carter gave me the fowl to sell, and he gave me 6d. for selling it.
GUILTY . Aged 14.— Confined Three Months.
(There were two other indictments against the prisoner.)
297. THOMAS JACKSON was indicted for feloniously receiving of an evil-disposed person, on the 23d of November, at St. Paul, Deptford, 2 bronze images, value 100l., the goods of Benjamin Oakley, well knowing them to be stolen.
Mr. ADOLPHUS conducted the Prosecution.
BENJAMIN OAKLEY . I live at Eden Cottage, at Beckenham, in Kent. I had three bronze images on my lawn, and missed two on the 23rd of November—they would be four or six feet high if they stood upright—one was a Grecian female figure resting on a plinth, the other was a dying gladiator—here is a drawing representing them as nearly as possible—It was produced before the Justice at the examination, and shown to Margaret O'Neill—they have never been found—I offered a reward of ten guiness for the recovery of them.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. That was made public through all the neighbourhood? A. Yes; the bills were circulated a few days afterwards—here is a copy of the bill.
MARGARATE O'NEIL . My husband is a labouring man—on the 23rd of November, I lived at the priosner's house, in Mill-lane, Deptford—he is a dealer in marine stores and lets out carts and horses—four weeks ago last Monday night, at about eleven o'clock, I saw a cart stop at his door—I was up stairs looking out of my bed-room window—It was a clear night—my window is on the first floor—they had a lighted candle out of doors—I went to the window—looked out and saw a cart stop at the door—I saw a man named Parish go in, and bring out Mr. Jackson—there was a young man with the cart besides Parish—Mr. Jackson came out and held the candle in his hand—Parish went to the cart and said to the boy in it, "Come out of the cart David"—parish went and stripped down some hay for the images—Jackson was present—the images were covered with hay—he turned to Jackson, and said, "Jackson how long is it since you saw your grandfather?"—I thought it was a joke about the images—they laughed about it down stairs, and I laughed up stairs at the window, and they said to me "Take in your head from that window, and don't be grinning there"—I said, "I think you will grin somewhere by-and-by"—I stopped at the window till they brought both the images in—they first brought in the male figure, and then the female figure—the first was what they called the grandfather—I could not see what it represented—the man had a curled head, and the other was a woman with her head leaning on her shoulder—they left the horse and cart, and took the images in, and closed the gate—there is a pair of
gates to the house and a yard—I then went to bed, and was not many minutes in bed before Mrs. Jackson came up stairs, and said, "Mrs. O'Neil, my dear, come down and see the images, for they have come at last"—I went down stairs to the kitchen, and saw Mr. Jackson there sitting with his bark against the table—he had a slate in his hand, and a pencil, and he said to me, "Well, Mrs. O'Neil, Parish has made a good day to-day"—I said, "Well he can pay to you now what he owes you"—I think he said, that by his calculation the goods would come to 7l. odd—he told me even to the pence, but I forget, it now—Parish and the other man were not present—they were putting the horse into the stable—I know the cart was Jackson's—I could not read any name on it—I had seen it in his possession several times—my husband has worked it himself—I took the female figure by the hand, and said, "Poor thing, how innocent she looks"—I looked at the male figure, and said, "I think he is something like death, "for he was very thin—I put my hand on him—I said, "Perhaps it may be a scheme off Parish to bring it here when it is not metal."and I sounded it with my hand, and found it was metal, or something—I turned the woman up—I looked at them—they were like this drawing—I should know them in twenty years—I saw the drawing before the Justice—I raised the woman up, and looked underneath, and said it was either brass or copper—I could not tell which—there was a woman named Mrs. Sims in the prisoner's house—she bought the candle behind their backs, and she found something on the woman's right shoulder, like a name as she thought, but she could not read any more that I could—there was another man, and his wife in the kitchen, when I went down, who had been eating their supper—Mr. and Mrs. Gollocker, and Mrs. Gollocker got up to see if she could make any thing of the name, but she could not—she could read—I sat by the fire, lighted a pipe, and smoked—I came down on that excuse—Mrs. Jackson had called me down, but I smoked my pipe after I got down—Parish came in after putting up the horse, and the boy who was with him, said, "Now Parish we shall have half-a-pint of rum on the strength of these images"—Parish put his hand in his pocket, pulled out his purse, and gave him some money, and said, "Bring rum and shrub, for Mrs. Jackson does not drink any thing else"—when the boy brought the rum they took it into Ms. Jackson's bed-room—I had to go through there to go to my bed-room—they took me by the shoulder and wanted to give me some—I said to myself I would not have it, for I would let the people outside know of it; and if I wanted rum I could get it—I stood on the stairs afterwards, and said to the boy, in the prisoner's hearing, "I think, my lad, you have brought yourself to something this time; for you have been at Bromley all day, and I think I know where you got these things"—I thought he had got them from the College at Bromley—nothing more passed that night—when I came down on Tuesday morning, about seven o'clock, I looked round to where I had seen the images at night; and said to Mrs. Jackson, "Why, my God! where are the images?"—her husband was not present, he was out—I saw him between two and three o'clock on Tuesday—the moment I came into the door, he said, "Well, Mrs. O'Neil, that job is settled, Parish has paid his door, and his horse is now his"—I said, "Well, a good thing: if you keep him so, you need not be fretting and stewing yourself"—on Wednesday morning I was going to breakfast, and had a few words with my husband, but not in anger—Jackson was present, and took it up—I said "The bigger the rogue was, the better he was looked upon"—Jackson said, "Oh, Mrs. O'Neil, I know what you are hinting at"—I
said, "Well, if the cap does not fit you, you need not wear it"—I was not angry at the time, though he might think so—but he smacked his fingers in my face, and said, "Parish and me do not care that for you"—I said, "I will make you care for me; you sold the dolls for 16l., and put Parish off with 6l."—I had heard that from Mrs. Parish—I said,—I will wear my shoes off, but I will find where those images came from; I will make you care for me"—he said nothing more, but he seemed calmer afterwards—that was all that passed—I went to Woolwich about my own affairs, and when I came home in the evening I had a few rags, which I sold to Jackson—I sell laces and things, and take rags and things in exchange for them—he paid me 2s. for the rags—I went into the kitchen, and was not there many minutes, when Mrs. Parish came for me—I went with her to Jackson—he stood in his storehouse, over the rag-him, and he said to me, "Well, Mrs. O'Neil, this is a serious piece of business" I said, "What is the matter?"—he said, "Why about these images"—I said, "It is no more than I expected; I told you they would be out in hand-bills; if a gentleman lost them, he would not lose them for a good deal—I thought they were old family concerns"—I had not heard of any hand-bills being published at that time—he said, "Well, Mrs. O'Neil there is a reward out for them of a few pounds"—I said, "Well, I know nothing about it, and I do not want"—Mrs. Parish said, "It is no use to be blindfolding people, Jackson, for there it guineas"—that was the first I heard of a reward, and I never thought of it afterwards in my life—If there were a thousand bills in the window, I could not read them—he said, "Well, Mrs. O'Neil, the business is, as it is, and if you keep your mind to yourself, and say nothing about what have seen, I shall make Parish give you 1l."—I said, "I shall have no pound, not any thing at all; I want no pound"—he said, "Let me tell you the times are very bad, and a pound at this time would be very requisite"—I said, "It would be no use, for more had seen it besides me"—he said, "Well, but Gollocker must have 1l. too, for you know that I did not steal them; it was not me"—he said, "What a serious thing it would be to take me from my wife and family through it, when I had no hand in it"—I said, "I think you had the greatest hand in it, for you received them; and you sold them, as Mrs. Parish tells me, for 16l., and here she is; you paid Parish only 6l., and charged him 4s. for going in your own male cart to make sale of them"—he told me the hand-bill was in Mrs. Muslins's window, at the corner of Mill-lane—I said "Well, what a place they have chosen to put it; the very top of the lane"—I came home then—his store-house is four or five doors from the house I live in—Mrs. Parish and me went up the lane—she could read the bill—she eyed it out for me in the window, and pointed it out, but she dare not go near it—I saw a bill there—I came home and went to bed, and on Thursday went out to work—on Thursday night, when I came home, I left Jackson's, and went to another house—I said, "Jackson, I have a few rags and bones"—he said, "Well, you can have my male," and he said, "I will not have any thing for my cart, only 6d. for the feed of the mule"—he afterwards came out and said, "What do you think of Parish, O'Neil? don't you think he is a d—rogue? I have a mind to turn round upon him"—I said nothing to Jackson then—On Friday night Mrs. Parish came down to me, and wanted to borrow 6d.—I said I had not one, but I would borrow one of Jackson, and I met Jackson against the cage, with two men he used to sell his metal, to—he said, "Well, there is no down on Parish yet"—I said, "No, there
is more reason they should be down upon you"—he gave me the shilling and I gave it to Mrs. Parish—I went to Mrs. Maslins's to inquire about the bill, as I could not tell where the things came from—I went to Mr. Brown, the baker, for the bill, and he went and brought it, he read it to me, and gave it to me—that was on Friday night—I have got it now—on Saturday morning I got up and had breakfast, and went to Mr. Oakley's house, Eden-cottage—I first went to the constable, and his boy took me to the prosecutor's, and I told Mr. Oakley's what I knew—this was four weeks ago, next Saturday—I went to Mr. Oakley's the Saturday after the deed was committed on Monday—I went before the Justice on Monday, at Deptford.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. I believe the very first thing you said was, "this happened four weeks last night?" A. Yes; that is so—It was about eleven o'clock at night—It might be a little before or after—I was examined before the Magistrate, and said that Jackson said, "Parish has made a good day to-day"—I believe what I said was taken down in writing, and read over to me—I put my mark to it—I am sure I told the Magistrate so—I do not know whether I stated that I said how innocent the lady looked, and the man looked like death—all I have said to-day I said before the Magistrate, but I might not exactly say he was like death, but I said it to myself—I gave proper evidence to the Magistrate—I am sure I told him that I said, "How innocent she looks," and that I took her by the hand, and that the prisoner snapped his fingers in my face, and said he did not care for me—and that he had sold the dolls for 16l. and given Parish only 6l., and that I said I would wear my shoes out but I would find who the images belonged to, and that he became very calm after that—he was quire calm and good-natured—I do not know whether he liked it or not—I told the Magistrate that the prisoner said, "Well, Mrs. O'Neil, this is a serious piece of business," and that I said, "It was no more than I expecated"—I told that to the gentleman who wrote it down, and I told the Magistrate that Jackson said he would make Parish give me 1l., and that I said I did not wish to mix myself up with it—I do not know whether I would have taken the pound—I might have it if I chose—I believe I owe the prisoner 6s. for rent—I do not owe him 10l. not 3l.—I cannot say whether it was 4l., my husband will tell you—I did not contract any debts with Jackson—he never settled with me, therefore I do not know—he did not turn me out of the house, for he offered me the bed he lay upon if I would stop in his house—he told me himself about this—that came into my own head—jackson did not say there were hand-bills about at that time—I told the Magistrate that I said to the boy, "You have been to Bromley, and got these images"—I did not tell him where I thought he had got them from, but I thought it to myself—It was taken down, and read over to me.
Q. How many persons slept in the room with you and your husband? A. There were four beds; Mrs. Gollocker, two men, me, and my husband, slept in the room, but Mrs. Gollocker was not in bed at the time—the two men were in bed—I bed taken nothing to drink that night, nor had my husband—I was as sober as possible that night as sober as I am now—I told the magistrate that my head was out of the window, looking out, and that they asked me what I was grinning at—I did not take notice of the night—I took notice of what was in the cart, for I had the light of the candle to see by—the two men who were in bed were close to the
window—they were awake, and talking to me at the time—I only spoke a word to the people, they were laughing all the time—they never got up to see what was going on—they heard me—I told the people outside they would be grinning by-and-by, and I said that before the Magistrate, and that I said to Jackson, "The bigger the rogue the better he was looked upon"—the clerk took that down, and he read it over, and asked me if it was true, and I afterwards signed it—I had no quarrel with Jackson before I left, nor with his wife—I had some words with her, because I would not lay in a sick man's bed, and she moved my bed—I left the house in consequence of that—I left on good terms with her, and with him too—when I came down in the morning, at seven o'clock, Jackson was gone to London—his wife said so—I saw him between two and three o'clock that day, when I came home, in his kitchen—he was not at all well, for he was in Dr. Smith's care—he walked—he was not at all well, for he was in Dr.
Q. How much money have you had from Mr. Oakley on this business? A. I never had a farthing from Mr. Oakley, or from any one—I go out every day to earn for my money, and bring it home at night—I have got no money, except by trade—I never asked Mr. Oakley for any—I never had any from him, nor from the attorney—he sent for my to go to Bromley and gave me a shilling to get my dinner—I have got no money but what I gave worked for—I was not asked that question before the Magistrate, and refused to answer—I was not asked whether I had 2l. from the prosecutor—I saw the prisoner on the Tuesday evening—I do not know at what time—I had no business with him—It was not so late as twelve o'clock at night—nor ten o'clock.
Q. On your solemn oath don't you know he was ill in bed that evening, and attended by the doctor, who I have here? A. He was not, on my solemn oath he was about his business every day but one—I don't know whether he was tired and went to bed—Dr. Smith has attended him when he was walking about on his business—I don't know whether Dr. Smith attended him on the very Monday in question—I have made no inquiry at all about the hand-bill—I went and told Mr. Oakley, from hearing of the reward—this occurrence took place on the Monday, and I gave information on the Saturday—I did not go to a Magistrate, because if I went and told him they would laugh at me; but when I found out the gentleman's name I told him what I knew—the prisoner wanted to give me 1l. as a bribe, that I should say nothing about it—he thought to throw all the blame on Parish, and snare me into it—I don't know what the 10l. is to be paid for, if I get it well and good, if I don't I shan't look for it—I don't know that it is to be paid on the conviction of the prisoner—I went first to Mr. Pearce—I got no money from him—all I have done is merely for the sake of justice—I can't wheather the prisoner gave me any copper when he gave me the two shilling for the rags—I may have had six-pence or eight pence in copper, and forgotten it—I can't tell what copper I got—I can't swear any thing about it—I remember the two shillings—the prisoner is married and has a family of children—Mrs. Sims, Mrs. Gollocker, and her husband were in the kitchen at the time the images were there—I don't know whether Mrs. Sims is here to-day—I have not seen her here—I did not see her yesterday.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. You say that before the Magistrate, you told the story of the clerk, who took down in writing what you said? A. Yes—I had no means of knowing whether he took down all I said, or only part of it, for I can neither read nor write, and he might not understand
me—when he was reading it, that man the (prisoner's attorney) came in, and he confused me, and I do not know what the clerk said, and what he did not—he wanted to baffle me out of it—I left the prisoners in debt—I should not have lived in his house, only for fear of being summoned for the debt—I am still in his debt—I was examined before the Justice on the Monday week after transaction—I am quite sure of that—I was taken to the station-house on Saturday night, and on Monday, went before the Justice—neither the solicitor nor Mr. Oakley gave me any money, nor promised me any—(the handbill was here read, offering 10l. reward).
JOHN O'NEIL . I am a labourer, and the husband of last witness. I lodged at the prisoner's house last month—I was at home one night, when my wife was at the widow—It is four weeks from yesterday—my wife called me—we both got to the windown together—I saw Parish come in for Mr. Jackson, and bring him out—he stripped the hay off the images, and asked Mr. Jackson, how long it was since he had seen his grandfather—they laughed, and my old woman laughed—I put my head in at the window—he looked up, and asked what she was grinning at—she said they would soon he graining shout something—I afterwards went to bed—there was nobody in the room but myself and wife in bed, and another man and his wife—I cannot tell their names—they were lodgers there was a man who gathers hareskin and rabbit-skins—on the Friday following, I heard the prisoner say he had a mind to turn about on Parish—he stood at his own cart at the gate at the time—I heard nothing more at any time about it—I did not go before the Justice—we left the prisoner's house two or three days after—It was Thursday night.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Who was in the room when your wife called you to come to the window? A. A man and his wife, and a skin-man—I do not know the name of the man and his wife—they were in the next bed to us—Mrs. Gollocker was one of the lodgers in the house—I do not know the name of the man and his wife—they names—I am sure there was a man and woman in the next bed to us—the bed was quite close to the window; as close as you could put it—you could not put any thing between it—out bed was close to the other—there were four beds in to he room—It is a small room—the four beds were quite done together, and there was only room for them—I did not notice whether there was a child in bed—a child usually slept in the room—Mrs. Pollock had one, but I cannot say whether it was in bed—It was very near ten o'clock at night—the child could not run alone.
Q. Who were you working for? A. Any body I could get it from—I do not think I owe the prisoner any thing of any account—my wife always paid the rent—I never paid him any money—I cannot tell how much rent I owe for I never paid the rent—my wife paid it—she knows what was owing—I did not owe him 1l.—my wife knows better than me—I have not talked over with my wife what I had to say—I went with her to Mrs. Oakley, on the Saturday after this happened—I cannot read—I do not know where I went on the Monday—I did not go before the Justice, because I was not wanted; if I was, I should be sent for—I did not go with her—I was at home—I was first asked about what I knew, when I came here last week, by the constable and Mr. Oakley—I did not see Mr. Oakley, when I went with my wife—I did not go in—my wife did.
Q. Were you in bed on this Monday night? A. To be sure I was, and heard the cart come to the door—my wife said it was Parish coming, and she did not think he had a great load for the cart ran so light—she got up
first and raised the window—the man and his wife in the next bed did not talk to us about it—nobody spoke to me at all, not to my wife—I cannot say whether they were asleep—there was no laughing—I have never received any thing for giving evidence—my wife has not given me any money, nor ever told me a word about it—she has not given me a farthing during the last week—I saw Mrs. Sims before to-day—we were standing at the gate—I have not seen her since I left Jackson's house—I saw her standing at his gate to-day—It was when we were coming out at the door—my wife was inside, coming out—I cannot tell when I last saw Mrs. Gollocker—I did not see her to-day, not can I tell when I saw her.
Q. You went to bed again, did you shut the window before you went to bed? A. I let down the window—my wife went to bed with me at the same time; and Mrs. Jackson came up on the stairs, and called Mrs. O'Neil to come down, and see the dolls that the dolls were come at last; and at the same time I made answer that she had seen enough of them, and she should not go down—my wife got up and said she should go down and see them—It was no Friday that Jackson said he had a mind to turn round on parish—I left the house on Thursday, but I was at Jackson's cart—my wife words about any bed—I always slept on the same bedstead—I heard no words about any bedstead—Mrs. Jackson called out so loud that every one in the place could hear her—I cannot tell whether it awoke the man and his wife who were in bed—I had no talk at all about it—I never saw either of them stir—my wife came to bed again in ten or twenty minutes—I was awake—she went down about five or ten minutes after the things came into the place.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. You say your wife used to settle the rent? A. Yes—she know what was due for rent when we went away, whether it was 6s. or 8s. I cannot tell—the prisoner and I had no dealings at all together—I used to sell him rags, but owed him no money for rent, unless my wife owed him—I never told him that debt must be forgiven, or I would come here as a witness—I do not know that anything was owing to him—I saw the images in the cart, and saw them taken in—I did not notice what they looked like—I saw nothing of them afterwards—Mrs. Sims stopped at Jackson's—I now live a few doors off—I never took any particular notice of her—I saw her this morning at Jackson's gate—my wife went before the Justice, on the Saturday—she went to the station-house.
HENRY BROWN . In November last I was a constable of Deptford. Mrs. O'Neal made a communication to me—there was a bill in Mrs. Hosre's window, which I gave her—I do not recollect whether I explained it to her—she asked me to get the bill out of the window—I got it and gave it to her—this was about three week ago—I thing it was on a Friday
----MASLIN. I live in Mill-lane. I had a bill in my window like this—It was put there on the 25th of November—I saw nothing of Mrs. O'Neil till a day or two after it was taken out of the window.
(Witnesses for the Defence)
JOHN SMITH . I am a surgeon. On Monday the 23rd of November, I was attending the prisoner for illness—I saw him first on Wednesday the 18th—I saw him between nine and ten o'clock on Tuesday evening, he was in bed then—I attended him for several days afterwards—I called on Wednesday, but he was not at home—he lives about four miles from London.
Q. Did you think him able on the Tuesday to go to London on business as early as six o'clock in the morning? A. I believe it possible, but it
would not be at all proper—I did not know that he had disobeyed my directions when I saw him on Tuesday evening.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. What was the matter with him? A. He was affected with pleurisy.
WILLIAM JONES . I am a furrier. In November I lived in the prisoner's house, and live there still—I remember Monday night, the 23rd of November, perfectly well—there were four beds in the room, I slept in that night—O'Neil and his wife occupied one bed—I went to bed at nine o'clock of a few minutes before—there was a girl asleep in bed with Mr. and Mrs. O'Neil—to the best of my remembrance she was between fourteen and fifteen years old—I slept in the first bed, on the left hand side, at the entrance from the stair-case—Mr. and Mrs. O'Neil in the first bed on the right hand side—two strangers in another, and Gollocker and his wife in the bed along side Mr. and Mrs. O'Neil—I was not well that night, and was awake in great pain till midnight.
Q. Now could any one have got out of Mr. O'Neil's bed, thrown up the window, and locked at people out of the window at eleven o'clock, or about the time, without your seeing or hearing it? A. I am confident they could not—no one did so—Mr. and Mrs. O'Neil were both very much intoxicated that night—the man more so than the woman—I got up in the morning at half-past seven o'clock—my illness obliged me to go down stairs twice that night—I consider the first time was about half-past nine o'clock, and second about a quarter past ten o'clock—the prisoner was very ill indeed that night.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. What are you? A. A furrier—that is what I served my time to, with my father—I have been out of my time seven years—I have been working at my trade a little since—for about four years—I get my living by purchasing skins of collectors, and very likely I might cry rabbit-skins by purchasing skins of collectors, and very likely I came to lodge at Jackinson's house three weeks ago last Monday evening—the 23rd of November was my first night to Jackson's about one o'clock in Rose-lane, Spitalfields, before—I came to Jackson's about one o'clock in the day—I knew him before—I had been there the week before, an bought skins of him—I have dealt with him for two years—I am confident no cart came up at eleven o'clock—I do not know whether I went to sleep at twelve o'clock—It might be after that—It was about midnights—I knew O'Neil and his wife before—I did not know Gollocker and his wife till I came to Jackson's—they were there before me—when I got up next morning, I went about the yard and places, I went out of doors immediately I came down stairs—I went out about my business rather before nine—I was in and out all day almost—Jackson has one male servant, I cannot tell his name.
JAMES GOLLOCKER . I am an umbrella maker. On the 23rd of November I lodged at Mr. Jackson's, and have lodged there about six weeks—I have a wife and child—I went to bed about half-past nine o'clock, on Monday, the 23rd of November—my room was on the first floor—there were four beds in the room—Mr. and Mrs. O'Neil slept in the same room, and Jones and two strangers slept in the same room that night—my child was very bad, cutting her teeth—that kept me awake a good deal—I went to sleep about twelve o'clock—I am certain I heard twelve strike before I went to sleep—Mrs. O'Neil did not leave her bed between my going to bad and twelve o'clock—she went to bed at half-past eight—If she had got out of bed, opened the window, and talked to anybody, I must have heard
it—she must have come past the foot of my bed, which is close to the window—I could put my hand on the window-still when I am in bed—I must have heard or seen her if she had gone down stairs—I got up next morning at half-past seven—I was down stairs, I think, before Jones—I did not hear her say anything that night, or see any cart, or hear her laugh with anybody, after I got to bed.
Mr. ADOLPHUS. Q. How long has Jones lodged there? A. He came there that Monday night, I cannot say at what time he came—he is in the habit of bringing hare-skins—he came in the afternoon—It was late—not at mid-day—I never saw him there before—he lodges there still, backwards and forwards—I was not in Court when Jones was examined—he has lodged there, off and on, to my knowledge—the first remark I made of my child's catting its teeth was on that Monday night—Jones was very bad on Monday—he said he had a kind of a belly-ache, and some sort of a tooth-ache—he asked me for a piece of tobacco—I cannot say at what time he went to bed—he went down stairs twice—he was up stairs before me—I was in bed when he began to complain—I went to bed at half-past nine, and I think, in about an hour he began to complain, and went down, and came up in about a quarter of an hour—and went down again in about half an hour—that was nearly eleven o'clock—I saw the O'Neils come up, I saw the old woman stagger against the drawers—she was intoxicated—I did not see the prisoner next morning—he kept a servant, I cannot tell his name—he is in the prisoner's service now—he is not here.
(James Ely, a carpenter and builder, of Greenwich;—Perkins, a porkbutcher; Thomas Garrett, grocer, New-town, Deptford; and Richard Cook, New-cross, butcher, gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY . Aged 33.— Transported for Fourteen Years.
Before Mr. Common Sergeant.
JOSEPH BECK . I live at Medway-place, Deptford. I have an empty house there which is the property of Mr. Thomas Beck—I have missed a quantity of lead off that house I have compared the lead now here with what remains on the house, and can swear it came from there—here is a piece cut from the side of a chimney—I do not know when I had seen it safe—I was on the roof about six months before, putting a piece up that some boys had cut away.
Cross-examined by MR. DUNBAR. Q. When did you fit it? A. Three days after it was discovered.
WILLIAMS JAMES (police-constable R 83.) It is my duty to be in the neighbourhood of Mr. Beck's house—I was in Trimly's-lane, and apprehended the prisoner with this lead about him, at twenty minutes after one o'clock in the night of the 13th of September.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you apprehended this prisoner at that time? A. No, not him, another prisoner. Hebden, but I saw this prisoner at that time—I knew him before; Hogg brought him to me at the station-house door—I said, "Come to the light"—he said, "You remember Dance"—I did not know him till some thing was said about lead—It was dark—It was a moon-shiney night when I saw him first—Hogg brought him to me about six o'clock at night—I said, the moment I saw him in the light, "That is him" Hogg said, "Do you know this man?"—I said I did not that I knew of—he
said to me, "Do you know any thing of Dance, about that lead concern?"—I said, "I did not know whether it is the man, let me see him"—I knew him the moment I saw him—he is the man I saw with lead that night.
Prisoner's Defence. I knew nothing about it till Hogg apprehended me—he asked me to come with him, I said, "What for?"—he said, "You know young Hebden," I said, "What about that lead"—he said, "Yes"—the Inspector said he could not lock me up till he took me to the other officer's house, and he said to him" Do you know any thing of this young lad?"—he said, "No"—there was a light on the table, and then Hogg said, "It is young Dance about that lead concern in Knacker's lane"—he then said, "He is the person."
Cross-examined. Q. Does the house door open into the room? A. Yes; there was a candle on the table—he said, "Bring him to the light"—that was before any thing was mentioned about lead—I will swear I do not remember the lead being mentioned, I will swear I did not mention it—I had been to Rose-lane station-house before, I told the same story there—when I took him there, the Inspector told me to take him to James's lodging to see if he could identify him, when I took him there it was dark—the prisoner was in the room—It did not appear that James knew him.
NOT GUILTY .
CHRISTOPHER SAMUEL . I live with my father, James Samuel, at Lewisham. On Sunday, the 6th of December, I saw two rabbits safe in a hutch, at one o'clock—on the Sunday morning I missed one as soon as we got up—this is the skin of it—the policeman brought it while we were at breakfast—it had been in a cow-house, which is not joined to the house—he had got over a fence.
JAMES PARRY , (police-constable R 8.) On Sunday morning, the 6th of December, I met the prisoner, about three o'clock, with a rabbit under his arm—he said he brought it from Dartford, and afterwards that he had killed it on the road—It was dead but quite warm—this is the skin.
GUILTY. Aged 23.—Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor. Confined One Month.
First Jury, before Mr. Sergeant Arabin.
SURREY LARCENIES, &c.
WILLIAM REAL . I am a sawyer, and live at Mr. Langton's timber-yard, Narrow-wall. I lost a saw, on the 4th of November, from that yard—I was at work with it all that evening—I left it under the roof of the sawpit—I returned the next morning, as soon as it was light, and missed it—I found it at the pawnbroker's—I do not know the prisoner—this is the saw—It cost me 29s. when new.
4th of November, I took this saw in pledge from the prisoner, in the name of James Turner—I am sure it was James.
WILLIAM DRIVER . I am a cooper, and was a constable. I produce a certificate of the prisoner's former conviction, which I got from Mr. Lawson's the clerk of the peace for Surrey—the prisoner is the man (read.)
Prisoner's Defence. I pledged the saw and a copper glue-pot—on the 6th I went to get it out, and I had not got sufficient money—this is the ticket he gave me—he put a wrong name on my ticket—I had not sufficient money to get the things out, and left some articles for them—this is the hand-writing on the ticket.
GUILTY . Aged 22.— Transported for Fourteen Years.
RICHARD RUSSELL . I am in the service of Margar et Alderson, she keeps a linen-draper's shop, in Blackman-street, Borough. On the 3rd of December, in the evening, I heard a bell ring, which was attached to the linen inside, that attracted my notice, and I saw the prisoner running—I pursued and overtook her about seventy yards off—I found the linen and shop ticket on her—It was my mistress's property—I brought her back, and gave her into custody—this is the linen—there is 7 1/4 yards of it.
Prisoner. I was not running—I was walking along the street. Witness. She had got about forty yards when I first saw her—she said some one gave it her to carry.
Prisoner's Defence. I was going along the Borough, and met a girl—she asked me if I would carry this for her—I said, "Yes"—she went away directly she saw the prosecutor coming.
GUILTY . Transported for Fourteen Years.
Second Jury, before Mr. Recorder.
FANNY JONES . I am the wife of John Jones, and live at the George public-house, Stoney-street, Borough-market. There were two indictments against the prisoners—one was tried at the Surrey Sessions, last week; and this indictment has been sent here—on the 20th of November, about half-past seven o'clock in the evening, Snooks and Lane came into my house, and called for two three-halfpenny's worth of gin and spruce—Snooks, gave me half-a-sovereign; and I gave him three half-crowns, one shilling, two sixpences, and three-pence in copper in change—Lane then said, "What have you changed?"—Snooks said, "Half-a-sovereign"—Lane
said, "You need not have done that, I have halfpence enough;" and laid down 3d. in copper—Snooks said, "I will have my half-sovereign again, if it makes no difference"—I said, "None at all;" and gave it to him—he laid the copper on counter, put the silver into my hand, and went out immediately—I expected it to be the same as I had given him—they both left the house immediately—as they were in the act of leaving the house, Malloy came in—I had not seen him before—he was looking through the window, while I was in the set of giving them change—he could see me give the change—he came in, and called for a halfpenny pipe of tobacco—my niece served him—I observed Snooks had given me a bad half-crown between two good ones—Malloy saw it in my hand—he was close by me, and said what a shame it was for them to give me a bad half-crown, and assisted my husband to fetch one of them back—my husband brought Snooks back, and Malloy assisted in bringing Lane back—I accused Snooks of giving me a bad half-crown—he said it was the same as I gave him—I said it was not, and I would send for a policeman—while I was waiting for the policeman's coming, Snocks said he would give me the half-sovereign back, if I would give him the obange, and let them go—I said I would not let them go till the policeman came—when he came, I stated the case, and gave the bad half-crown into the policeman's hand; but before he came, Malloy requested me to let him look at it, but he refused also—Malloy then said, "Oh, what a rascally bad half-crown that is; any body may see that is a bad one;" and he knocked it out of the policeman's hand on the floor—they all stooped together, and Malloy slipped the half-crown up, put it into his month, and slipped a good half-crown into the policeman's hand, with his right hand.
Cross-examined by MR. DUNBAR. Q. Were these same persons tried last week? A. Yes, and acquitted—I would not undertake to say that I have told every word to-day that I did the other day—there is a window between the bar and the street—I saw Malloy looking through the window—when the policeman came, Lane and Snooks were searched—there were no half-crowns found on them—no bad money was found on any of them—I cannot say what was found on Malloy—I believe the policeman searched his mouth first—I saw him put it in his mouth—I know it is a bad half-crown—I should have objected to it, but he ran out directly.
ELIZA WEBB . I am niece of Fanny Jones. I had been on an errand, and on coming up the street I saw Mallow looking through the window—I went in—he followed me and asked me for a pipe of tobacco, when Malloy came in they were against the bar—Malloy saw the bad half-crown and said what a had one it was, that it was a rascally bad one—It was in my aunt's hand, he said, "Allow me to look at it," and pretended to be my aunt's friend—my aunt refused to let him look at it, and said it should not go out of her hands till the policeman came—when the policeman came my aunt gave the half-crown into his hand, and Malloy asked the policeman to let him look at it—the policeman said nothing, and he knocked it out of the policeman's hand—he said it had dropped, he stooped to pick it up, and said, "Here it is"—I did not see it fall, I heard it—he picked it up, and gave one into the policeman's hand—the policeman said it was not the same as he had looked at—Malloy said it was the same—the policeman said it was not, that it was a bad one he had knocked out of his hand, and
he had given him a good one instead—I saw the bad half-crown—my aunt had shewed it to me, and I bit it so that I could know it again.
Cross-examined. Q. Upon their being searched, was any money found on Snooks? A. Snooks gave my aunt the half-sovereign back, and she said she should keep it till the policeman came—at the time policeman came in she was in possession of the half-crown, and the remainder of the silver of the first change—Malloy had gone out to bring the other two inn when she handed me the half-crown—that was directly I gave him the pipe of tobacco—he brought Lane back—the three men stood there at the time—there was no complaint against Malloy at first—there were a great many people in the tap-room—neither of them attempted to get away—my aunt was by when I bit the half-crown—It was a dark colour—I knew it was bad—gunpowder will discolour good money, but I bit this myself—I can tell a bad half-crownI am a pretty good judge of silver—they went out very quickly, almost directly Malloy came in.
WILLIAM GRAHAM . (Policeman M 43.) I was sent for to Jones's house and searched the prisoner I received the half-crown from Jones—Malloy said, "It is a rascally bad one, just let me look at it"—I refused, and he struck it out of my hand on the floor, with his open hand, as if he was going to snatch at it—he stopped down, and so did I—he picked up something that appeared to be a half-crown, put his hand towards mouth, and extending the same hand to me, gave me a good half-crown—I am confident he extended the same hand to me as he put to his mouth—I am certain the half-crown he gave me was not the one he knocked out of my hand—the first one was very much discoloured, the other was not so—I found 14s. 14d. on Malloy, and a duplicate—there were two half-crowns among the money both good—I found nothing on Snooks, and 2d. on Lane,
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know whether the landlady was in possession of the half-sovereign and some silver? A. She said she had the crown here which Malloy gave me—I did not ring the bad half-crown—I would not because he should not get it out of my possession—Malloy was not holding one of the men in custody when I came in—I searched Malloy first—the landlady complained of Snooks and Lane—I was very much confused at the time—I searched all three—I think I searched Snooks and Lane before I had suspicion of Malloy, but I am not quite positive—I think on consideration, that I did search them first—there were several coal-porters in the house—I found no bad money on the prisoners—Malloy broke his pipe at the time the half-crown fell—It was knocked out of my hand sharply—he did it with his open hand—I looked down where I thought it had fallen, and in about his mouth first, but I cannot be certain—I searched all his pockets—I looked into his mouth before any person told me—good money is frequently discolored—the half-crown was bit, which he gave me at last.
ELIZABETH WEBB re-examined. That is not the half-crown I bit—I did not notice where I bit it—I am sure it is not the same—the one I bit was a leaden one—I was present when the half-crown was knocked out of the policeman's hand—I heard it sound as it fell—It sounded like a bad one—I will take my oath it was a bad one.
SNOOKS— GUILTY . Aged 37.
LANE— GUILTY . Aged 35.
MALLOY— GUILTY . Aged 31.
Confined Six Months.
Before Mr. Baron Parke.
303. CHARLES BOOTH was indicted for that he, on the 8th of December, unlawfully, maliciously, and feloniously did kill a gelding, price 16l., the properly of Charles Morrison, against the Statute, &c.
CHARLES MORRISON . I am a coach proprietor. The prisoner has been in my service about seven months—I gave him warning to quit last Monday-week, I think it was the 7th of December—he was employed last Saturday-week in clipping a gelding belonging to me—he was generally employed about my horses during the whole month—I did not myself set him to clip the gelding—he left my service last Saturday, but he said he had began to clip the gelding, and should like to finish it, if it was agreeable to me—I said, "Well, you may come on Monday, and I will pay you"—he did not come on Monday, but on Tuesday I saw him clipping the gelding about twelve o'clock, and I saw the gelding dead about five o'clock that afternoon—no person was employed in clipping it besides the prisoner—two lads were employed to hold it—I saw the prisoner the same afternoon with the officer—I used no threat or promise to induce him to confess—I asked how he came to do it—he said he had killed my house, and he was extremely sorry for it, and that he had done it in agitation of passion.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. How old is he? A. I believe about nineteen years—he worked for me seven months—I found him a very quiet lad till within the last three or four weeks, and then he did not come to work as usual—that was the reason I parted with him—I asked why he neglected his business, he gave me no answer—I said, "I am afraid you have given way to a party"—he said, "I have, to a singing party"—I said, "If that is the case, you cannot attend to my business"—I liked him very much—he was a very quiet lad—It was an omnibus gelding—I gave sixteen guineas for it.
Q. Clipping a horse's belly it is a very delicate operation? A. Not more than clipping the hoof—he told me he had clipped horses before—he never did one for me before—I do not think he was there was there on Monday—he was constantly about the horses.
Q. If he had been of a malicious disposition he might have killed horses before? A. No doubt of it—the boys who held the horse are young—It was a quiet horse, and did not want much holding—I did not engage the boys to do it—I did not say, if the prisoner's friends compensated me for the loss of the horse I would settle the matter—they came to me—I do not recollect saying so—I will not positively say I did not—I said I did not want to hurt him—they came with his mother crying—I did not say I liked him very much—I might say I did not want to hurt him—I saw his uncle, aunt, mother in a public-house, in Redcross-street—I know it was his mother—I do not know who the other two were—I did not say I should be satisfied if I could have 10l. paid to me—they offered me 10l.—I said I would not take it—I never said I would take 10l.—I did not say I was agreeable to come to terms, and would take 2l. down, and a bill for 8l. at three months—I said there were the lawyer's expenses; if they liked to give me 2l. down, and give me security I should be satisfied if they would give me the value of the horse—I said I would take it at 1l. a month if they would give security for it—they said they could give no security at all—I do not know whether Bradley was present when the prisoner said he had killed the horse in the "agitation of passion"—I heard
him, (Bradley,) tell the Magistrate that he said he had done it in the heat of the moment.
Q. Did not the boy state that he was clipping the belly of the horse, when the horse reared, and plunged on the scissors? A. I never heard such a thing—I never said I did not believe he stabbed it maliciously, but that he might have hurt it with the scissors, thinking he was using one end of the scissors instead of the other—I did not say any thing of the sort—I do not know that he clipped the belly—It certainly is about the most delicaate part of the horse.
COURT. Q. Where was the wound in the house? A. Between the ribs just behind the near fore leg—his words were, "Master I am extremely sorry for what I have done, but I done it in the heat of passion, and am extremely sorry for it"—I discharged him on Saturday, the 5th of December—my son gave him a week's warning before—during that week he had been at work as usual.
JOHN BASTABLE . I am a farrier. I was sent for last Tuesday week, and saw the house dead—I saw it opened afterwards—there was a hole between two ribs, which went through the skirts, and caused a deal of blood—the wound was four of five inches deep, and about an inch or an inch and a half wide—I think that wound was the cause of its death, as it was perfectly sound in its inside—It had the appearance of being made with sharp scissors.
Cross-examined. Q. Did the horse appear as if it had been clipped about the belly? A. I did not particularly notice—It had been clipped nearly all over—I had seen the horse before—In general a horse stands quiet to be clipped—I am not in the habit of seeing them clipped—I have seen two or three people hold them when being clipped.
JOHN BRADLEY . I am a beadle. I was present when the prosecutor had a conversation with the prisoner—I used no promise or threat—he said he had killed the horse, and was very sorry for it, that it was done in the hurry of the moment, and he would sooner have given 5s., or 5l., if he had it, then it should have happened—his words were, "It was done in the agitation," or, "hurry of the moment, "one or the other—and at the time I apprehended him on Tuesday evening, the 8th of December (the prosecutor's son pointed him out to me) I asked if he was the party who caused the death of the horse—he said, "Yes" he was very sorry for it—his expression was, "It it was done in the irritation," or, "hurry, of the moment," I will not say which.
Cross-examined. Q. Did not he appear very sorry for what had happened? A. Very much indeed—he cried very much—I have known him all the time he was with the prosecutor, and before—sixteen or eighteen months altogether—he is a quiet, mild, and well-conducted lad.
EDWARD JACKSON . I am nearly sixteen years old. I assisted in holding the horse on Tuesday, when the prisoner was clipping it—It was very restive indeed—when he was clipping about the chest, the horse tried to pull himself away from me, and did get away—It was in the stall—he did not get out to the stall—I was holding by one ear—Immediately after the horse got away, I heard the prisoner say, "The horse is bleeding;" and I went round and saw the prisoner pull the scissors out, from behind the near fore leg—I was standing on the near side of the horse—the horse pulled towards the opposite side to me—the scissors appeared to be about four or five inches in the horses belly—I do not think it could be the result of accident,
from the horse's plunging towards the scissors—I went for a doctor, and left the prisoner there.
Cross-examined. Q. Is there a Bill somebody in the yard? A. Yes—he called out for Bill to come—I have not been living with Mr. Morrison since—I do not recollect saying before the Magistrate that the horse plunged, and ran on he scissors—It was very restive, and plunged—the prisoner was at that moment engaged in clipping the belly—the hours plunged, and got away from me—I do not recollect saying, "It ran on the scissors," and I did not believe the prisoner ran the scissors into the horse—I do not recollect it—I remember Mr. Starling attending for the prisoner—he did not put any questions to me to my knowledge—he asked if it might have happened from the horse's plunging on the scissors; and I said, "Yes. "
COURT. Q. Do you recollect his asking you if the horse plunged on the scissors? A. Yes; I said I believed it was so—I did believe so at the time—the horse went away from me—It could not have happened from plunging on the scissors—I have had no conversaion with Morrison about this, since I was before the Magistrate—I said, before the Magistrate, that I did not believe the prisoner ran the scissors into the horse.
THOMAS EMERY . I am fifteen years old. I was employed in holding the off-ear of the horse—I heard the prisoner say the horse was bleeding—I went round to the other side, and saw him draw the scissors out, and I went for the doctor—they were about four or five inches in the horse's belly—I cannot form any judgement how it happened—the horse got from me—he went back first, then came towards me, and ran round to the right, towards its off-side; and as he turned round, he squeezed the prisoner against the bale which divides the stall—he was just behind the horse's hind-quarter at that time—he had the scissors in his hand at hat time—he did nothing when the horse squeezed him against the bale—the horse turned round, and walked off—he took the scissors out while he was against the bale.
Cross-examined. Q. I think the first you noticed was his calling out, "Bill, come here, the horse is bleeding?" A. Yes; he called to Bill in the yard for assistance.
(The prisoner put in a written defences, stating the wound to have been caused accidentally, by the horse plunging on the scissors; and that he never said he did it intentionally.)
NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Baron Parke.
304. WILLIAM SNELLING was indicted for stealing, on the 14th of November, at St. George the Martyr, Southwark, 8 carriage-springs, value 10l., and 8 axle tree arms, value 13l., the goods of Cyrenius Berry Herring, and that he had before been convicted of felony; and JAMES ATKINS , for feloniously receiving, on the 16th of November, the said goods, well knowing them to be stolen.
CYRENIUS BERRY HERRING . I am a coach-maker, and live in Aslyum-buildings, Westminster-road. On the 15th of November, I missed four sets of springs and four axletrees, in eight halves, from a loft over my smith's shop—I had been there on Friday, the 13th—on the 8th of December, I saw them at a pawnbroker's, named Clark, in old-street-road—they are worth 23l. or 24l.—Snelling worked for me all last summer, up to two or three months previous to the robbery.
Cross-examined by MR. DONE. Q. Where did you keep them? A. In a loft over my premises—nobody could get to the loft unless they passed by my house—there is a passage ten feet wide.
EDWARD LANGELY . I am a policeman. In consequence of information I searched the prisoner Atkins's house, in Baker-street, on Monday evening, the 7th of December—I found him in bed—I found no goods on the premises—I told him I wanted him for felony—he asked me what felony—I told him the springs and axletrees, which were lost from Mr. Herring's—he said at first that he knew nothing about them—he afterwards told me he was hired by a person to take them over the water to a pawnbroker's, but he did not know they were stolen—he said he took them to a pawnbroker's in Old-street—Vickers went next morning and found them.
GEORGE VICKERS . I am a policeman. I went with the prisoner Atkins into Old-street, on Tuesday, the 8th of December, to Clark's, the pawnbroker's, and inquired if there had been any springs pawned there—the man said there had—I asked if her could, so many people pawn springs here"—at the instant a boy in the shop said, "Yes, I recollect three persons coming here, and if you recollect, they wanted too much"—the foreman pushed the boy aside, and would not let him speak about it—I found some springs and axletrees there, and brought them away, by order of the Magistrate.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. Were not some others taken up on this charge? A. There was one other person—I did not know the pawnbroker's name till Atkins took me to the shop—I said "Have you any objection to take and show me the place you were desired to take the things to?" and he went, and pointed out the shop—I found his statement true.
GEORGE SMITH . I am a policeman. I was on duty on Monday, the 16th of November, in the Cornwall-road, about eight o'clock in the evening—it is about half a mile from the prosecutor's premises—I saw both the prisoners—Atkins had his donkey-cart there, standing still, and another person, not in custody, was there, and a glass and a measure in his hand—Snelling was standing by the cart, and talking with the man with the measure, about Atkins not receiving enough for the time of his cart—I believe he keeps a donkey-cart, and works about the New-cut—I have known him there a long time—knowing the other parties with him to be bad characters, made me notice him—there were others besides Atkins.
JOHN SEAKER . I am a locksmith and bell-hanger. I know both the prisoners very well—I was employed by a man named Jones, a fendermaker and wire-worker, the best part of November—I know some springs were brought to Jones's shop—I can't exactly tell the date, but I think it was Friday or Saturday, the 14th or 15th of November—they were brought by Snelling—he wished to leave them there, while he went up into the New-cut; and it not being my own place, I did not like to allow it myself—I called to Mr. Jones in the other shop, and he said, "Yes, certainly"—Jones did not see them, only on the prisoner's shoulder—I don't know what became of them—they remained in the shop two or three days—I did not see them taken away—I missed them afterwards—I did not take sufficient notice of them to swear to them again, but they were very similar to what I have seen in Court.
Cross-examined by MR. DOANE. Q. There are a great quantity of springs similar to these, are there not? A. I am not a sufficient judge to
tell you—It was about the end of the week they were brought, Friday or Saturday, or some thing like that—I did not see them, at Jones above two days afterwards—I saw nothing of them after that, till I saw them at Queen-square.
JOHN ALFRED SMITH . I am in the employ of Mr. Clerk, a pawnbroker, in Old-street, St. Lukes. I recollect some springs, and four sets of axletrees being brought there about six o'clock in the evening by three men—I did not take particular notice of them—I think I have seen Snelling before—I could not positively swear he was one of the persons—I had not seen him before to my knowledge—they were the same springs that were afterwards given up to the policeman.
NOT GUILTY .
Third Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
SARAH ELLIOTT . I am servant to Mr. James Piddock, a baker in the Walworth-road. On the 23rd of November, at six o'clock in the evening, the prisoner came into my master's shop, and asked for a penny loaf—he gave me a sixpence—I bit it—I went into the parlour, and spoke to my master—he came into the shop, and told the prisoner he was a very bad boy to give his servant a bad sixpence—my master kept the sixpence, and told him to go along about his business, and he went.
JAMES PITTOCK . My servant fetched me into the shop—she gave me a sixpence—I made the observation to the prisoner about offering the bad sixpence, and told him to go away, or I would give him in charge—Mr. Viekers afterwards came to me as I stood at my door—he soon after brought back the prisoner—I am quite certain he is the boy—I had kept the sixpence till then, and handed it over to the policeman.
GEORGE VICKERS (police-constable L 34.) I followed the prisoner nearly half a mile—I saw him go into another baker's shop, and when I was observing him at the door—I saw him turning a sixpence over his fingers as if surprised—I went and snatched the sixpences out of his hand, and took him into custody—this is the one I took from him, and this I received from Mr. Pittock.
Prisoner's Defence. A man came and asked if I had any thing to do—I said, "No"—he said would I go to the baker's, and get him a loaf—I went and they said it was a bad sixpence—I went back and told him, he said, "Never mind here is a good one—go to that other shop"—I went and the officer took me there.
GUILTY . Aged 17.— Confined Six Months.
Fifth Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
MR. DOANE conducted the Prosecution.
SAMUEL RUNCHMAN . I am corn-chandler, and live in Paradise-street, Rotherhithe. Norman was my carter—It was his duty if any body gave him an order to communicate it to me or my wife—something aroused my
suspicion—I had a communication with the policeman, and on Monday last, I was looking out of my parlour window, about the half-past five o'clock—Norman then left my warehouse which is directly opposite, and which contains hay—shortly afterwards Norman left to go to his tea, as far as I, know, and I saw Eyers come, and push the door of the warehouse open—he went in, staid a few minutes, and then came out with a truss of hay—I followed him, he was taken by the policeman—when I took hold of him by the arm, he said, "Don't Mr. Runchman, I am going to pay you"—I said, "You are in the hands of a policeman, I have been robbed to a great extent, you are the first that came to hand, young man do your duty"—Eyrees has been a customer of mine, and paid me—Norman had no authority to give him permission to take the truss of hay, nor any thing else—he had made no communication to me that day about Eyers.
Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. How long had Eyers dealt with you? A. I should think twelve months; he had made many purchases—Norman had no authority to let any one take any thing without letting me know—Eyers did not any money—I saw a half-sovereign, some silver, and a halfpenny taken from him—he has had things on trust, but I had the order and booked it myself—he has paid Norman for goods had on trust, but that I knew of—he has never paid Norman for goods which see Norman, he was not on the premise at the time—Eyers came up to the door and pushed it open softly a little way, then waited a moment, then pushed the door further, and it made a noise—he waited a minute or two, and then went in, and brought out the hay—he lives in Church-street, fifty yards from my house—that was at half-past five o'clock.
CHARLES HOW . (Police-constable R 99) On Monday last, I made a communication to the prosecutor—I was in the street, about forty yards off, on the look out—I observed Norman leave the house—I crossed—he had not got far before he met Eyers—he turned back, and they were in conversation,—Eyers then went to the warehouse and pushed the door open—he went in, and in a few minutes came out with a truss of hay on his back—he walked towards me, and Norman got before him, I then crossed over—I took hold of him, and before I had turned him round, Mr. Runchman came up—we returned back and opened Mr. Runchman's warehouse, he there threw the hay down, and said, "Do not, Mr. Runchman, I am going to pay you for it"—he said to me, "Do not collar me," I let go of him, and he made his escape—Norman was taken afterwards—Eyers said to Norman, "Did not you give your master the money?" "No," said he, "I gave him no money"—when I went up to Norman, I said, "I want you"—he said, "What for?"—his master said, "I have preferred a charge against you at the station-house"—he said, "I know nothing about the hay"—the hay had not been mentioned to him.
Cross-examined. Q. How far were you from them when they met? A. Not more than fourteen yards—Eyers was going in a direction from his own house to the prosecutor's, and Norman was going from his master towards him—I had my police dress on, but a plain great-coat over it—I had been nearly six years on that beat—the prosecutor's parlour window is directly opposite—there were plenty of gas-lights—they both knew me—any body might have seen the prosecutor if they had looked over—when the other went into the warehouse, Norman placed himself nearer to me.
Eyers. When I wanted a truss of hay I always went to the warehouse
for it myself—I have done nearly the same thing before, but there was the money—as I was going along I met Norman—I said, "I want a truss of hay"—He said, "Come on"—he opened the door, and I took one—he said, "Make haste"—I said, "I want change for half-a-sovereign"—he knows that I like to go to pick out a truss myself—I have even sold a truss in the shop.
(Sarah Thorne, and John Griffiths, Church-street, Rotherhithe, gave Eyers a good character.)
NORMAN— GUILTY . Aged 42.
EYERS— GUILTY . Aged 46.
Confined One Year.
ADJOURNED TO THE 4 TH OF JANUARY, 1836.