NUMBER I. PART I.
[PRICE NINE PENCE.]
At a Common Council holden in the Chamber of the Guildhall of the City of London on Friday the 17th of November 1775,
A MOTION was made and QUESTION put, That the whole Proceedings on the King's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery for the City of London, and also the Gaol Delivery for the County of Middlesex, held at Justice Hall in the Old Bailey, be regularly, as soon as possible after every Session, published by the Recorder, and authenticated with his Name: The same was resolved in the Affirmative.
KING's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery for the CITY of LONDON, &c.
BEFORE the Right Honourable JOHN SAWBRIDGE , LORD MAYOR of the City of London; the Honourable Sir RICHARD ASTON , Knight, one of the Justices of his Majesty's Court of King's Bench; the Honourable Sir JOHN BURLAND , Knight, one of the Barons of his Majesty's Court of Exchequer; Mr. Serjeant GLYNN, Recorder; THOMAS NUGENT , Esq; Common Serjeant; and others his Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer of the City of London, and Justices of Gaol Delivery of Newgate holden for the said City and County of Middlesex.
1st Middlesex Jury.
2d Middlesex Jury.
[ John Lambert served part of the time in the stead of James Wingfield ; Peter Graham in the stead of Edward Bevan ; Hatsell Hutchings in the stead of John Bragg ; and John Mace in the stead of Edmund Hayes .]
Margaret Caroline Rudd , At the last September session, upon your being brought to the bar, to plead to several indictments found against you for forgery, it was insisted upon by your counsel, that in point of law you ought not to have been put upon your trail at all, as you had confessed yourself to be an accomplice before the Justices of the Peace for the county of Middlesex, and had been by them admitted as an evidence for the Crown,Daniel Perreau . The ground of that claim was founded upon the supposed merit of the discovery you had made: that being admitted to give evidence as an accomplice, and having performed your engagement to the public, by being examined before the Grand Jury, and being ready to have given evidence upon the trial, if called upon, you was intitled to pardon; or not to have been prosecuted, that you might have time to apply elsewhere: that the constant practice in regard to accomplices becoming the King's evidence was, that they should not be prosecuted for the offence they had confessed, or such like offences: that a contrary conduct would be a breach of faith with you, and would discourage the future discovery of criminals, if after such disclosures they were nevertheless to undergo prosecutions for their offences. To this it was answered, that the discovery meant by law or practice to intitle an accomplice to favour, must be a full, ample, and true discovery; and that it would never discourage the making such discoveries if criminals offering themselves as witnesses, were made to understand, that to intitle themselves to mercy or favour, they are to make a full discovery of all the offences about which they were questioned, and of all their accomplices in guilt. And it was farther insisted, that you had not made a fair disclosure, at the time of your examination, of all you knew relative to the forgeries which had been committed and published, but that you stood charged by the Grand Jury with several other forgeries which you had denied the knowledge of Upon the debate of this matter before the Bench of Gaol Delivery, the Judges present, not all concurring in one opinion, and it being judged a point of great weight and importance, in the criminal law, fit to be fully considered and finally settled, how far, under what circumstances, and in what manner, an accomplice, received as a witness, ought to be intitled to favour and mercy; the father consideration of the matter was then deferred, in order that the opinion of all the Judges might be taken upon the point of law.
Eleven of the Judges have accordingly met, the Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas being absent through indisposition; and have maturely and deliberately considered of the matter, under all the circumstances; and it falls to my share to deliver, in your presence, to the public, the substance of their reasons upon the occasion, that the ground of their resolves may be rightly understood. All the Judges were of opinion, that in cases not within any statute, an accomplice, who fully and truly discloses the joint guilt of himself and of his companions, and truly answers all questions that are put to him, and is admitted by Justices of the Peace as a witness against his companions, and who, when called upon, does give evidence accordingly, and appears under all the circumstances of the case to have acted a fair and an ingenuous part, and to have made a full and true information, ought not to be prosecuted for his own guilt so disclosed by him, nor perhaps for any other offence of the same kind, which he may accidentally, and without any bad design, have omitted in his confession; but he cannot by law plead this in bar to any indictment against him, nor avail himself of it upon his trial; for it is merely an equitable claim to the mercy of the crown, from the Magistrates express or implied promise of an indemnity, upon certain conditions that have been performed: it can only come before the Court by way of application to put off the trial, in order to give the prisoner time to apply elsewhere. Nine of the eleven Judges were of opinion, that all the circumstances relative to a prisoner's claim of indemnity, in such a case, not only may, but ought to be laid before the Court, to enable them to exercise their discretion, whether, upon the grounds before them, the trial should be put off, and consequently have intimation given that the prisoner ought not be prosecuted; for the discretionary power exercised by the Justices of Peace in admitting accomplices to be witnesses, founded in practice only, cannot controul the authority of the Court of Gaol Delivery, and exempt at all events the accomplice from being prosecuted. Upon every motion made, upon collateral equitable grounds, the Court will see and examine into the whole truth, and consequently ought to be informed of all the circumstances affecting the case.
The affidavit of the Justices therefore must in this case be necessarily taken into consideration, to see upon what ground they admitted
The same nine Judges also were of opinion, that if the matter stood singly upon the two informations of the prisoner, compared with the indictments against her, that she ought to have been tried upon all or any of them; for from the prisoner's information, she is no accomplice; she has not confessed herself guilty of any offence at all. By their representation the share she has had in these transactions is perfectly innocent: but she exhibits a charge against Robert and Daniel Perreau , the one soliciting her to imitate the hand of William Adair , from a paper he produces; the other forcing her to do the fact of forgery, under the threat and fear of death. Her two informations are contradictory; and every indictment that is preferred against her proceeds upon a falsification of the account she has given; for she answers to the Justices interrogation, that she did not know of any other forgeries: so she does not confess, make any discovery, or become a witness concerning these offences; and if she has suppressed the truth, and not made a full and fair disclosure, she forfeits all equitable claim to favour and mercy. But if she has told the truth, and the whole truth, she cannot be convicted. On the other hand, taking the affidavit of the Justices, and all the case into consideration, if she is guilty of the charge contained in the indictments preferred by Sir Thomas Frankland , the Judges are of opinion, as her informations before the Justices have no relation to these charges, they can in no light be applied to mitigate her offences.
Upon the whole, whether the prisoner is guilty or not guilty is a fact still to be tried by a jury upon legal evidence only, without prejudice to the prisoner from any thing which has been insisted upon in point of law by her counsel to exempt her from any trial at all; for it would be hard indeed upon the subject, who has a right to advice and assistance of counsel in all matters and points of law that may arise upon his case, if the eventual decision of the Court against the points of law insisted upon in his behalf, should prejudice the subsequent trial of the facts, which is ultimately to be governed by the rule of evidence, and to be decided by the verdict of the Jury. I hope and trust, the facts will be tried without the least attention to, or even a remembrance of, any one matter or thing whatever, which has either made its appearance in print, or been the subject of common conversation. I shall only add, that an accomplice, who desires that his trial may be put off, that he may apply for mercy under all the most regular pretensions before laid down, confesses the guilt; but, under the circumstances of this case, if the prisoner confesses these indictments, she has no promise of mercy, and no claim to favour for the reasons aforesaid. The Judges therefore are of opinion that the trial ought to proceed; and I have authority to say, that the Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas concurs in that opinion.
MARGARET CAROLINE ( wife of VALENTINE) RUDD , was indicted for feloniously forging and counterfeiting on the 24th December last, at St. James's Westminster, a certain paper writing, partly printed and partly written, purporting to be a bond signed by William Adair , Esq; and to be sealed and delivered by said William Adair ; the tenor of which said forged and counterfeited paper writing is as followeth (that is to say)
Know all men by these presents, that I William Adair of Pall-mall, in the parish of St. James, in the county of Middlesex, Esq ; am held and firmly bound to Robert Perreau of Golden Square, in the parish of St. James, and county of Middlesex aforesaid, Esq; in ten thousand and six hundred pounds of good and lawful money of Great Britain, to be paid to the said Robert Perreau , or his certain attorney, executors, administrators, or assigns; for which payment to be well and faithfully made, I bind myself, my heirs, executors, and administrators, firmly by these presents, sealed with my seal,George the Third, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the faith, and so forth; and in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and seventy-four.
The condition of this obligation is such, that if the above-bounden William Adair , his heirs, executors, or administrators, shall and do well and truly pay or cause to be paid unto the above-named Robert Perreau , his executors, administrators, or assigns, the full sum of five thousand and three hundred pounds, with interest, of good and lawful money of Great Britain, on the twenty-third day of March next ensuing the date hereof, then this obligation to be void, or else to remain in full force.
2d Count. For feloniously uttering and publishing the same bond as true, knowing it to have been forged, with the like intention against the statute, &c.
4th Count. For feloniously uttering and publishing the same bond as true, knowing it to have been forged with the like intention against the statute, &c.
Is it not your opinion that the fate of your husband will depend upon the conviction of Mrs. Rudd? - I am not clear of that.
Do you not hope or expect that the conviction of Mrs. Rudd will be a means of obtaining your husband's pardon? - I have nothing but the truth to say.
I desire an answer to my question; Do you not hope that the conviction of Mrs. Rudd may be a means of obtaining your husband's pardon? - I don't hope for the conviction of Mrs. Rudd.
That is not an answer to my question. - I hope Mr. Perreau's innocence will clearly appear.
And do you not apprehend that Mrs. Rudd's conviction will contribute to it? - If Mrs. Rudd is found guilty; I suppose it will: I hope it may be the means of procuring Mr. Perreau's pardon.
Mr. Serjeant Davy submitted to the Court, that Mrs. Robert Perreau was not a competent witness, after having told the Court, she hoped that the conviction of Mrs. Rudd might be the means of obtaining her husband's pardon, who was now under sentence of death in Newgate: that nothing was more clear, than that no person can be a witness in any action or prosecution, civil or criminal, who is interested in the event of that prosecution; and so cautious is the law respecting the competency of evidence, that the person whose bond or note is forged shall not be admitted as a witness to prove the instrument to be forged, if in its consequences it may be affected by the conviction of the party: that if Robert Perreau was a co-defendant in the present indictment with Mrs. Rudd, Mrs. Perreau could not be admitted to give evidence; that she could not be admitted a witness for or against either her husband or the co-defendant of her husband.
Mr. COWPER (likewise of Counsel for the Prisoner) observed, the law requires that every witness in a cause shall be totally indifferent in the event of it. The counsel contended, that when a witness says he conceives he is interested in the matter, that the very imagination of the witness is as much an objection to the witness, as if he was really and truly concerned; because the law requires, that a witness shall have no bias upon his mind, but shall be totally indifferent and disinterested in the event of the prosecution. That the bias that may be upon the mind of a wife in favour of her husband, or a husband in favour of his wife, is undoubtedly the strongest that the law can take notice of. For Mrs. Perreau not to haveRobert Perreau 's innocence will appear in consequence of Mrs. Rudd's conviction; and that Robert Perreau 's pardon will also be the consequence of that conviction: that if Mrs. Perreau's testimony is to contribute to her conviction, it is, to be sure, through the same medium her husband's life is to be saved; and if that is not a clear, a decisive, and a positive interest, it is impossible to define what a positive interest is. If upon the trial, when it was an equal chance, whether he would or not be in the unfortunate predicament of being under sentence of death, Mrs. Perreau could not be admitted a witness for him: is he, when under sentence of death, to be redeemed from that unfortunate situation by her testimony? Does the influence cease, and does it become an objection to her credit only and not to her competency? In civil cases, if an objection is taken to a witness, who only imagines he has an interest, though he has none - If a master, for instance, in defending his servant, imagines, that in point of honour he ought to pay his costs, though there is no bond to indemnify him; but he says, I think, as a man of generosity, in point of honour, I ought not to let my servant suffer, how small is that bias? The idea of obligation upon the man's mind makes him act like a man of honour, and under that bias he would not tell an untruth; and yet so careful is the law, that a person shall not be a witness who is under any temptation whatsoever when called upon to give evidence. That such a witness has in many instances upon that ground been rejected.
Mr. Cowper mentioned a case that happened the preceding day in the Court of King's Bench upon a patent: the patentee produced his journeyman, who stated to the Court, that he had entered into articles to work a number of years for the patentee, and receive a sum of money upon the patent: an objection was made to his evidence, a release of the articles was executed by the witness in Court, and it was then contended that the objection was removed. The question was then put to him, Sir, though you have discharged your master from all obligations he was under to you, don't you expect, when you go out of Court, to be restored to the situation you was in before? Why, replied he, I believe my master is an honest man; and I believe my master could not do the work without me, and therefore I am well convinced I shall be put in the situation from which I have released myself. My Lord Mansfield, upon the idea that the witnesses's imagination led him to suppose that he should certainly be restored to the situation he was in before, rejected his evidence; and very properly rejected the evidence, repeating what he had once before said in a solemn judgment from the bench, that it is not the office of courts of law to consider how far the minds of people may resist temptation, but to take care that they shall be exposed to none at all.
Mr. LUCAS (of Counsel for the Crown) contended, that the observations that had been made by the counsel were proper as to the credit of the witness, but did not affect her competency. That if the doctrine was to be held in the latitude in which it was laid down by the gentlemen on the other side, it would be impossible ever to prosecute. When a man prosecutes for a felony or robbery, suppose he was to be asked, Sir, if the prisoner should be convicted, don't you expect the restitution of your goods? he would say he did; he is intitled to restitution: and yet that question was never asked in such a case. And in cases where the prosecutor is intitled to a reward, the reward is dependant upon conviction, and he is therefore interested in the conviction of the prisoner; and yet that objection was never taken. An accomplice is not sure of his pardon the moment he gives evidence in many cases; it is only from the favour of the Crown. Where a pardon is held forth by statute in case an accomplice convicts two persons, suppose he convicts but one, or suppose he convicts neither, he is not intitled to his pardon, unless he fulfills the conditions required of him by the act. It is only in the mercy and favour of the Crown. Mrs. Perreau has told the Court, that she hopes her husband's innocence may appear. She certainly wishes that he may obtain a pardon whether Mrs. Rudd is or is not convicted.
Robert Perreau would be the consequence of that conviction. The Court farther observed, that the bond which Robert Perreau was convicted for uttering, knowing it to be forged, was not the same the prisoner was indicted upon. That the observation was well founded, that if Robert Perreau was a co-defendant with the prisoner, Mrs. Perreau's evidence would be inadmissible. That this was not like the case of an accomplice, who comes to give evidence in hopes of being pardoned if he speaks the truth; for in what had fallen from the Court, in delivering the opinion of the judges upon that point, it was certain that wherever an accomplice discloses all he knows, whatever may be the consequences of that disclosure, he himself stands in a situation to be intitled to the expectation of mercy; but that it was very like the case put by Mr. Lucas, where a person who prosecutes a thief is intitled to the restitution of his goods. And in prosecutions where there are rewards, the reward can only be the effect of a conviction; in such a case as that, every man that comes as a witness, under the idea of having a reward, supposing the criminal should be convicted, may be said to be interested in point of property. But the case that had been put of criminals that are admitted witnesses under the statutes of king William and queen Ann, came clearly within the objection now made, because they are not intitled to their pardon, unless their evidence is a means of conviction; and therefore, where the legislature has held out that, as a reward, by way of inducement for criminals to come in and make a discovery, the legislature would have acted contrary to the rules and principles of law, if by the consequence of their evidence they were to be considered as interested in the determination. That to go a little farther back, and enter into the doctrine of approvers, they likewise came most clearly within that idea; for there the approver, if he did not convict, was not intitled to a pardon: therefore in this case, whatever Mrs. Perreau's hopes might be, yet as it is not an interest that is necessarily to follow upon the conviction of the prisoner, the Court were of opinion, that it was not an objection that would go to her competency, though it would certainly go very strongly to affect her credit; and of that the counsel for the prisoner would have the advantage, by the observations they had made in the hearing of the Jury.
What time of the day was it? - Between the hours of eleven and two.
Did you see any papers pass between them? - I saw Mrs. Rudd deliver a bond to Mr. Perreau.
How do you know it was a bond? - Mr. Perreau laid it down upon the table; while he was brushing his coat I looked at it.
Can you tell what sum it was for, to whom it was made payable, and what name was signed to it? - It was for 5300 l. made payable to Robert Perreau , and signed William Adair ; and the witnesses were Arthur Jones and Thomas Start , or Hart.
When did you see it again? - The day after my husband's conviction: I was in my own room upon my bed: it was brought by justice Wright; there was another justice with him, whose name I do not know. They brought two or three bonds to see if I knew the bond that was delivered upon the 24th of December: I took up this bond, and made a mark upon it.
What was said by Robert Perreau and Mrs. Rudd upon the occasion? - Mrs. Rudd said, that Mr. Adair would be very much obliged to Mr. Perreau to try to raise upon that bond the sum of 4000 l. of Sir Thomas Frankland .James Adair was out of town; for if he had been in town, he would have been one of the witnesses: that he had therefore got Mr. Arthur Jones , Mr. William Adair 's solicitor, and Mr. Adair's confidential servant, Thomas Start , to witness it.
Did Mrs. Rudd stay long after she had said that? - Mrs. Rudd went away very soon afterwards with Mr. Daniel Perreau , who was present during the whole conversation. Mr. Robert Perreau told her it did not suit him to wait upon Sir Thomas Frankland till the evening, and then he would try if Sir Thomas would lend him the money upon the bond.
Was any body else in the room? - Yes; Mr. Cassidy and my eldest son. She seemed very impatient for Mr. Perreau's return, and desired Mr. Cassidy to send for him. Mr. Cassidy did send for him, and bid the messenger tell Mr. Perreau that a patient wanted him, but he was to call at home first.
Who directed that message to be sent? - I cannot be certain whether Mr. Cassidy or Mrs. Rudd.
Was Mrs. Rudd present when the message was delivered? - She was.
Was Mr. Cassidy told what message he was to send? - To the best of my recollection, he said, tell him a patient wants him, and desire him to call at home first.
What passed then? - Mr. Perreau took a draught of Sir Thomas Frankland 's out of his pocket, and read it at the candle. I stood by, but don't exactly remember the sum: it was under 4000 l. I took particular notice of that, as he gave it her he told her the discount of the two bonds was settled between him and Sir Thomas Frankland .
You say the sum was under 4000 l.; did you hear that, or did you see it upon the draught? - I saw it, and I observed there were two or three blots upon the draught.
What kind of a draught was it? - A banker's draught filled up.
Have you seen that since? - Yes; I saw it upon the same day I saw the bond: this is the draught: there was the name to it when Mr. Perreau gave it to Mrs. Rudd, but it is now torn off.
You say you selected this bond from other bonds; was it produced by itself, or with other papers? - With other papers, and I selected it from the others.
You say you saw two or three places blotted in it? - The bond and the draught were shewn to me with other papers; I selected them both.
Did Mrs. Rudd stay long after Mr. Perreau gave her the draught? - She did not stay three minutes after: we asked her to sit down; she said Mr. Adair was an early man, that he had not been well, and he would wait till she came back to know whether Sir Thomas Frankland could lend the money.
No: he continued at home. When she was gone he sat down to settle the discount.
When did you next see Mrs. Rudd? - This happened on the 24th of December; my brother Daniel and she dined with us the next day in Golden-square, and some more friends.
Did any thing pass at any time that day, and what time of that day, relative to that note? - When all the company were retired up stairs, Mrs. Rudd sat upon a sopha by Mr. Robert Perreau ; my brother Daniel leaned upon the back of the sopha: I heard Mr. Robert Perreau ask Mrs. Rudd if she had delivered Sir Thomas Frankland 's draught to Mr. William Adair the preceding night; she said she had, and Mr. Adair had ordered her to give Daniel Perreau the draught to pay Mr. Collins for the house in Harley-street that my brother Daniel Perreau lived in.Daniel Perreau or Mrs. Rudd asked Mr. Robert Perreau to help them out, I cannot be certain which. Mr. Robert Perreau said, I have a 20 l. note, how much will do? Mrs. Rudd said, Dan. you have a 10 l. note in your pocket, give it to your brother in change.
Was there any other company in the room then besides you, your husband, Daniel Perreau , and Mrs. Rudd? - Yes; Mrs. Williamson and Mr. Barker, a clergyman from Wales. Mr. Barker and Mrs. Williamson were conversing together about Carmarthen. I sat next to Mr. Perreau, and heard the conversation.
How far was this sopha from the fire? -
They were on the opposite side of the fire.
The conversation you are now speaking of was upon last Christmas day? - Yes.
When after that did you first hear that there was any thing wrong in these transactions of the bonds? - Not till the 8th of March.
After you had a notion that there might be something wrong in this transaction, when did you see Mrs. Rudd? - At my house, about seven or eight o'clock that evening, Wednesday, the 8th of March.
What room were you in? - The parlour.
Did any thing pass about these transactions, whether they were right or wrong?
Court. Don't speak of these transactions; you must apply it to nothing but this particular bond.
Cross Examination by Mr. Serjeant DAVY.
You say there were present in the room on Christmas day Mrs. Williamson and Mr. Barker, a Welch clergyman: they were visitors, I suppose, at your house? - They were.
And they were engaged in a conversation touching Carmarthen? - Yes.
You are a well-bred woman, and therefore, of course, you was attending to the conversation of your visitors, and you perfectly well remember their conversation: how came you, when you had not a thought that any thing was wrong in the transaction, to attend to the particular conversation that passed between your husband, Mr. Daniel Perreau , and Mrs. Rudd? - I should not have attended had they not been engaged in conversation.
But you did attend to their conversation; in short, you attended to the conversations of two sets of company? - I did attend to their conversation, as I sat next to them. I cannot say I attended particularly to Mr. Barker's conversation, only I remember they were talking about Carmarthen: Mrs. Williamson was asking me after my sister-in-law, who lived in Carmarthen.
Though Mr. Barker and Mrs. Williamson were talking, yet they had eyes, they could see the 20 l. note that passed from Robert to Daniel, and Daniel give a 10 l. note immediately in change: how came you not to have these people here as witnesses? - Mrs. Williamson is in the East Indies.
How long has she been gone? - She went there, I believe, last March: she was on board the ship when this affair broke out.
What is become of Mr. Barker the clergyman? - He is in Wales.
He might have been brought here? - I don't know that he attended to that conversation.
But if he had been here we would have asked him whether he attended to the conversation; we would have asked whether he had ever been there or no. - He is not here.
You very well understood, at that time, that the business of your husband on his trial, and of Daniel Perreau the next day on his, was to throw the blame, as much as they could, upon Mrs. Rudd, and from thence to infer their having been imposed upon: now I ask,Daniel Perreau , appeared as witnesses? - I could not be examined for my husband.
He was only called to prove Robert Perreau 's circumstances I believe, but not to prove a syllable of the story you have told? - He said he saw Mrs. Rudd deliver a piece of whited brown paper to Mr. Robert Perreau .
But not a word of her returning at seven o'clock in the evening. You say you did not in the least imagine that there was any thing improper or extraordinary in the transaction? - Not at all.
And yet I observe you was very curious to look at this bond, supposed to have been of Mr. Adair's, for 5300 l. and also afterwards to make very particular observations upon the draught even to the blots that were upon it, and to the particulars of the bond, so as to be able to know it again at the distance of three months: how came you to be so particular in your observations upon a matter that did not strike you then to have any thing material in it? - My husband never restrained me from looking into his papers; when he was brushing his coat I read it. I looked at the bond as a mere matter of curiosity.
There was nothing about it that should lead you to any particular attent ion to it? - No: I don't know that ever I saw a bond before, and I looked at it.
Then I am a little surprized that never having seen one before, you should be able to recollect every circumstance about it; to know the names of the witnesses, Arthur Jones and Thomas Start ; to observe the name of William Adair , the obligor of the bond; and to observe to whom it was made payable: it is surprizing to me, never having seen it afterwards till the day after your husband's affliction, which was at the distance of five months, that you should be able to swear so positively to it? - Because it was similar to the very bond itself.
To the witnesses, the name of Mr. Adair, the name Robert Perreau to whom it was made payable, and the sum; that when it was shewn you by the two justices, you was so sure of it that you set your name upon it, and took upon you to be positive it was the same? - Yes, as well as I can speak to a thing that has not been in my possession.
How happened it, that at the distance of five months you should be able to be so very particular to the exact similitude of all the circumstances of the bond, never having seen any bond before in your life, and not being led by any suspicions to make any particular remarks upon it? - I have the happiness to have a good memory.
When Mr. Wright and the other justice brought this bond to you, they also brought other papers? - They did.
Did you look at those other papers? - I looked at them, and saw they were not the bond that I had seen.
Did you read them? - I observed the difference of the dates and sums.
Then you observed what the sums were? - I did not pay any attention to the sums.
Does your excellent memory enable you to remember one date or sum in any one paper they produced to you? - I do not remember.
But now you do; you said this money was all brought to Daniel? - I said she brought him the draught.
You said you heard Mr. Robert Perreau ask her, whether she had delivered the draught to Mr. William Adair the night before; she said she had, and Mr. Adair had ordered her to give it to Daniel to pay Mr. Collins for the house in Harley-street? - Yes.
Upon which Daniel said, the draught was under 4000 l.? - Yes.
It was on Christmas-day that Daniel made the observation that the draught was under 4000 l. and your husband lent him a 20 l. note because he said he had not cash enough to pay for the conveyances? - Yes.
Then Daniel is supposed to be so much distressed for cash, as to borrow 10 l. of Robert to make up the money? - Yes, he was.
You took notice when you saw the draught that it was under 4000 l.? - Yes.
And upon Christmas-day you heard Daniel say it was under 4000 l.? - I did.
You are acquainted with Mr. Robert Perreau ? - He was my apothecary for 17 years: he came to me the day before Christmas-day 1774, between three and four o'clock, being before I had dined; he brought to me a bond, which I thought was Mr. Wm. Adair 's of Pall-mall.
Counsel. Look at that bond for 5300 l. - This is the bond. The money he borrowed upon this bond was 4000 l. I gave him a draught upon my banker for 3890 l. 9 s. because I had to deduct the discount upon 5000 l. which my banker had let him have without interest or discount; and there was the discount upon this 4000 l. with the addition of 15 l. 10 s. for a lottery ticket.
Cross Examination by Mr. DAVENPORT.
I believe you know the prisoner at the bar? - I don't believe I sat down above once in her company in my life.
I don't ask you the position; I ask you only whether you know her? - I mistook you; I never saw the prisoner in my life till I saw her at Guildhall, Westminster.
Perhaps, though you may not know the prisoner, you may know something about her substance and her personalty? - I have no objections to answer that. As to her property, every thing I have is sold to me by the two Perreaus by a bill of sale, and what there is I hardly know.
Court. Every thing you have was in Harley-street? - Yes.
Then I will ask you, whether any part of it consists of jewels or ornaments of a woman's person, and of women's apparel? - I fancy there are gowns, petticoats; jewels there were none in the house.
Then you have no jewels under the bill of sale from the Perreaus or from her? - I don't say so.
The jeweller being unpaid, do you retain and keep the jewels as your property? - The jeweller sold them in fact.
And notwithstanding the poor jeweller is unpaid, you retain these jewels as your property: be so good as answer me another question, What is the value of them? - I am no judge.
Have you not had them valued? - Yes.
Then you are a judge of the appraisement.
What are they valued at? - 2800 l.
Whether you don't know that these were jewels used or worn by the prisoner? - I know nothing of them.
Nor have any reason to believe that? - Reason!
Aye, reason to believe that these were worn or used by the prisoner? - I don't know whether she has got holes in her ears to hang them or no.
Whether you have reason, or what reason, to believe that these were personally worn and used by her? - I have not reason enough to understand your question.
You have reason enough to know the discount upon 5000 l. will not the same reason tell you whether you had heard, or had reason, and what reason, to believe, that these were her jewels, and worn by her? - I don't lock my money up in a box.
When I want to know how to keep my money, I will apply to you. Have you any reason to know that these jewels were worn or used by her? Did you ever hear
But as you knew the Perreaus very well, did not you know that she lived at the Perreaus? - I know nothing of Daniel Perreau : I did not know that he had a house in Harley-street: I had no connection with him.
My question is, whether you have any reason to believe that these jewels were worn or used by her? - I suppose if woman have jewels they wear them.
Now, do you suppose she is the woman that did wear them? - I know nothing of it.
Court. Sir Thomas, the question is not whether you knew it at that time, but whether you know it at this time? - Yes.
Now, upon your oath, did not you understand that question when I put it five minutes ago? - No.
Upon your oath you did not? - No, I hardly understand your question now.
Court. Now you have heard what has passed between these Perreaus and this Mrs. Rudd, you now believe that she did wear them? - Certainly.
When I first asked you that question, did you believe it, or have you got that belief within these five minutes? - I did not understand it.
You will pardon me, Sir Thomas; the manner of giving evidence is sometimes as strong as the evidence itself; I ask you, whether five minutes ago, when I first put the question, your belief was the same as it is now? - No answer.
By whom did you suppose the gowns and petticoats and other womens apparel were worn, by the two Perreaus, or by whom? - They might go in masquerade.
As this man was your apothecary for seventeen years, and you and he were acquaintance, you best know his manner of dressing; therefore you suppose he might go to the masquerade in these cloaths? - I suppose as they were womens cloaths she wore them.
Do you believe now that they are hers? -
They are sold to me, as I said before, by a bill of sale.
Is the prisoner a party to that bill of sale? -
No, I fancy not.
Now, do you or not believe them to be hers, you claiming them under a bill of sale to which she is no party? - They are disposed of to me by a bill of sale.
I wish to know whether under this bill of sale, to which the prisoner is no party, you don't claim these goods that are hers? - Upon my word I believe that affair must come into a court of law, and then it will be proper to decide that question.
I have as great an affection for a court of law as you have; but as we are in a court of law at present, I would wish to have this question answered, whether these goods of hers that you claim, you claim under a bill of sale to which she is no party? - Whether they had a right to sell them I am not a judge, but that will be settled I suppose in a court of law.
But I ask you now, whether you don't believe that these are her property? - Her husband has sent over a power of attorney from Ireland to claim them.
Then you claim the interest in them, do you? - They are sold to me by a bill of sale; and I think that bill of sale is a good bill of sale.
I ask you, whether they have ever been demanded of you by the prisoner? - She has demanded all the household furniture and every thing in the world that was paid for with my money.
Has she demanded these cloaths and jewels of you by her agent? - Yes; the tables and chairs, and the jewels, and all the things that are marked in the house of Daniel Perreau ; but that is to be litigated in a court, and I hope what I say will not be made evidence.
You had lent before this 5000 l. to Robert Perreau , and this 4000 l. minus the discount; whether you had before lent this 5000 l. the discount of which went in reduction of the 4000 l.? - I did not; my banker lent it him, because I was in the country.
It was your money, was it not? - Yes; my money in the banker's hand.
Had you left an order with your banker to lend Robert Perreau money? - I wrote a letter out of Yorkshire in November, that when Robert Perreau came with such a bond to let him have 5000 l. and to take the discount, or not, as he thought proper.
That would take up the time of the post going to Yorkshire, and your answer coming back? - Yes.
That would be a week, I take it? - About four days.
Court. Which bond are you now speaking of?
Counsel. The preceding, and this too; I am now speaking of the 5000 l. bond.
Upon the 5th of May and the 14th of May, I lent them upon a bond the sum of 4000 l. They took up the bond for 5000 l. at the banker's on the 24th of August, five days before it was due.
Did you know any thing of the prisoner at that time? - No.
Do you know a Mrs. Porter or Potter of Hackney? - I know no such body.
Have you ever sent or enquired whether the prisoner was that Mrs. Potter or Porter of Hackney? - Certainly, I have.
I ask you to whom you have mentioned your idea of this Mrs. Potter or Mrs. Porter at Hackney? - I wrote to Lord Northington about it.
Are you the prosecutor of this indictment? -
Yes; I was bound over to prosecute.
Are you at the expence of it? - I do expect to pay it.
Then I ask you, whether you have prosecuted this woman as and believing her to be a Mrs. Potter or Porter of Hackney? - I know nothing at all about that: I don't know that she is, but I believe she is.
Counsel. Take time and consider.
I saw several people at Hackney, she might be one of them.
Did you enquire of any woman? - I believe there were two women.
But they might be very significant words; were they concerning Mrs. Potter of Hackney? - They were.
Might there not be two more Mrs. Rudds and Mrs. Potters? - Yes; there might.
That Mrs. Rudd might be this Mrs. Potter; was that the subject of your enquiry with her? - She came to my house; I asked her if Mrs. Rudd was not the same woman that was Mrs. Potter at Hackney.
How came Mrs. Peake at your house, for the purpose of discoursing of Mrs. Potter or Porter? did you not send for her? - No.
How came she then? - Perhaps somebody sent her; I never sent for her, nor know nothing of her.
Do you know who sent her? - No.
What introduced your conversation? - She said,
"I heard you wanted to speak to me."
Now, who was your agent? to whom did you give authority to make this enquiry? - I don't know that I did.
To whom did you give authority? - Nobody that I know of.
Then, though you had given no authority to any one to enquire whether Mrs. Rudd was Mrs. Porter of Hackney, yet this woman found out your house, and came to you, and knew
Why did you believe so? why did you tell her, and by what information was you enabled to tell her, that you believed Mrs. Rudd to be Mrs. Porter or Potter of Hackney? - I had seen Madam Groseburg's writing.
Was that the same woman you believed to be Mrs. Rudd and Mrs. Porter? - Yes.
How came you to see Mrs. Groseburg's writing, to know that her writing and Mrs. Rudd's were alike? - Because a Mrs. Fellows, who hired Mrs Potter to send her down to Lord Northington to be governess of his children, gave me a note which is like her hand-writing.
Did she go as a governess? - Yes.
Did Mrs. Rudd ever go as a governess in Lord Northington's family? - That I don't know.
Counsel for the Crown. Sir Thomas, look at that draught again. I see there are some blots upon the face of it; do you remember whether these blots were upon it when you gave it to Robert Perreau or not? - I remember that I drew lines under the number and sum; as for the blots I will not take upon me to say.
Is not that bond now in Court? - Yes; I got it from my banker's. There are two lines under the eight in the number and under the sum in the draught.
SCROOPE OGILVY sworn.
You were acquainted, I believe, with Mr. Adair? - I was.
How long have you known him? - Near twenty years.
Did you live with him in any capacity? - I was clerk to him.
You are well acquainted with his handwriting? - Yes, I am.
Look at the signature to that bond: is that his hand-writing? - It is not at all similiar; he always signs his name Wm, and not at length.
Cross Examination by Mr. COWPER.
Therefore it could not be wrote by any body that was conversant with Mr. Adair's hand-writing? - I should imagine not.
Mr. Serjeant Davy. Is it to be conceived that any one person should have applied to another person to forge a bond, when the person so applied to to commit the forgery is totally ignorant of the hand-writing of the witnesses, or the obligor?
Mr. Cowper. Mrs. Robert Perreau told us, speaking of the bond, that Mrs Rudd said Mr. William Adair had got his solicitor, whose name was Arthur Jones , and a confidential servant, to witness the bond.
Do you remember seeing Mrs. Rudd there? - Very frequently.
What time did you see her there upon Christmas day 1774? - From about seven in the evening till about ten.
Did you see her on the 24th? - Yes.
Did she say any thing to you? - I do not immediately recollect that she did: she expressed a wish that he might be sent for: I sent a message to Mr. Perreau at Sir Thomas Frankland's,
Was that your own thought, or did any body tell you to bid the messenger tell him that? - I think it was my own thought.
Did you mention this message in Mrs. Rudd's hearing? - She was there.
Did she say any thing? - I don't recollect that she did: she seemed to wait for him with great impatience: she said she should be too late, but did not mention the place.
Did she say any thing when you desired Mr. Perreau to be told a patient wanted him? - She desired that he might call at home first.
Are you privy to the transactions of the Perreaus in the stocks? - No.
Were these the first sums that you had lent to Robert? - Yes.
Whether you know, or do not know, that he had great dealings in the alley, or great dealings in the stocks, by which this money might be wanted to answer differences, as it is called? - I hope you have a better opinion of me than to suppose I would lend money for such a purpose.
I don't ask you whether you knew it when you lent your money: I am asking you whether you don't know now that Robert Perreau had great dealings in the stocks? - I don't know that he ever had: but, being in possession of the papers that were in the house in Harley-street, I found a paper with Daniel Perreau , Esq; debtor for differences on stock to the amount of 460,000 l. and 54,000 l, East India stock.
For what purpose was this money wanted if there were no losses to settle? - Robert Perreau always told me that his brother Daniel had married a woman intimately connected with Mr. Adair, and that he was paying her fortune by instalments.
Then I am misinformed; I had heard so. - I have searched the Bank for the bank notes, and I have traced them.
Counsel. That is not what I mean: I mean settling differences.
Was that draught paid at your house? - It was.
Can you tell to whom you paid it, and how? - I paid it on the 26th of December to Mr. Alexander, the master of the Union Coffee-house. I paid it all in bank notes except nine shillings.
Have you the particulars of the bank notes? - Yes: three notes of a 1000 l. each; one of 800 l. a 50 l. and a 40 l. this paper contains the dates and numbers of the notes (producing it).
I believe you live with Mess. Biddulph and Cocks, bankers at Charing Cross? - I do.
[It appeared upon examining the numbers, dates, &c. that the bank notes, which were given by Mr. Hoggard in payment of Sir Thomas Frankland 's draught, were paid by Daniel Perreau into the house of Mess. Biddulph and Cocks.]
Cross Examination by Mr. COWPER.
You say, that upon the 17th December he paid in 800 l.? - He did.
Did he pay any money between the 17th of December and the first of January, besides the 4000 l. he paid in on the 26th? - No.
Did he draw out any money between the 17th and 26th of December? - Yes; he drew out 204 l. 14 s. 6 d.
Then before he paid in the 4000 l. he had 595 l. 5 s. 6 d. balance in his favour in your hands? - He had.
Then if he had wanted upon the 24th, the 25th, or the 26th to pay a conveyancer's bill to the amount of 20 l. would not his draught to that amount have been honoured at your shop? - Certainly it would.
What balance was there in his favour at the end of the month? - 483 l. 6 s.
Do you know Mrs. Rudd? - I do.
Where did they live then? - At ready-furnished lodgings in Pall-mall Court.
What name did Mrs. Rudd go by? - The name of Perreau.
Do you know what sort of hand Mrs. Rudd could write? - I have seen her write often. I know her common hand perfectly, and I know her feigned hand that she used to write.
How came you acquainted with her feigned hand? - From observations I made upon it. She used to write to Mr. Daniel Perreau as coming from Mr. Willim Adair the agent in Pall-mall, and I made observations upon the hand-writing; the R's were very much like a Z, and the A's were open at the top, entirely different to her common hand-writing. I never saw a hand like it.
Did you ever see her write this feigned hand, and how often? - I have seen her write it, but I cannot say how many times; but I am sure it was more than once or twice.
Upon what occasions did she write this feigned hand? - When Mr. Daniel Perreau has been going out she has told him that Mr. Adair was to call upon her: she has told me, that if Mr. Perreau when he came home found that Mr. Adair had not called upon her he would be very angry with her; upon that account she has bid me tell Mr. Daniel Perreau when he came home, that Mr. Adair had been there, and had left a note for her; or if he did not call there, that she was to wait upon Mr. William Adair : and I was sometimes to give a letter to Mr. Daniel Perreau , as coming from Mr. William Adair , which letter was of her own writing.
How do you know she wrote it? - I saw her write the directions of it.
What sort of pens did she use to write with? - She had different pens. I used to be sent out for pens. I bought crow quill and common goose quill pens. I used to mend some for her, as she often said she could write best with the pens I mended. Which pens she wrote with I cannot say.
Did you make any observations on the paper she wrote upon? - When she wrote in the feigned hand she wrote upon thick gilt paper that I bought for her. Mr. Daniel Perreau always wrote upon thin gilt paper.
Are you a judge of her hand-writing? Should you know it if you saw it? - From the observations that I made upon it, I really think I should certainly know it again. (The witness inspects the draught.) The name William Adair appears to be the same hand the letters were wrote in which I gave to Daniel Perreau , as coming from Mr. William Adair , which I saw Mrs. Rudd write the directions of.
William Adair to that bond is the prisoner's hand-writing? - I believe it is her hand-writing.
Cross Examination by Mr. COWPER.
What capacity was you hired in then? - As footman.
What had you been before? - I was never any thing but a livery-servant before.
What are you now? - Servant to Captain Gore.
Pray, what other men servants were there belonging to the family when you came there? - First, there was a servant out of livery, acted as butler; he went away after I had been there three months, and I had the care of the cellar till the time I left their service.
How soon after you had been in the family, was it that Mrs. Rudd made you the confident of this imposition upon Mr. Perreau your master? - I never made any observations of the time.
I don't mean the day or week; but you know it is a remarkable transaction, and you have a remarkable good memory and attention, for you have sworn to a hand-writing only from two letters? - Not from two letters only.
Partly so: now, professing so much accuracy, I want to know how soon after you came into the service of Daniel Perreau , this conspiracy was concerted and carried on against Mr. Perreau between you and Mrs. Rudd? - About five or six months.
Was it in October? - I cannot say the month.
Will you positively swear it was in September, October, or November? - I will swear neither.
Will you swear it was in January or February? - Neither.
Or in March, April, May, June, July, or August? - No.
Will you tell me how often you have delivered these letters? - No.
Will you tell me within three times? - Yes.
How often upon your oath have you delivered them? - Five or six times; I believe it may be more.
But you have no doubt abut five or six times? - None.
What space of time might there be between the delivery of each letter; a month, a fortnight, or a day? - I cannot say.
When was the first time you ever saw Mrs. Rudd write? - I never made any observation.
Was it within two months after you came there? - Not to write a feigned hand in less than six months.
When did you see her write a real hand? - Perhaps in two days after I came into the family.
What did she write? - I don't know: she wrote that publicly.
Where? - In the dining-room.
Did you lean over her shoulder? - No.
Did you examine what she wrote? - No.
I want to know then how you could distinguish the feigned hand from the real hand? - Not to read it while she was writing it.
My question is, how you could distinguish that you did not examine, or read, from what you call a feigned hand? - When she has wrote papers containing directions for me to get in errands, that I might not forget, that was her common hand.
Nothing I suppose could be more unlike the two names? - No.
You did not live with her till this unhappy blow-up happened? - No.
When you left the family I suppose you was dismissed in the usual way? - I left them to better myself.
Had you disclosed to your master before you left the family the circumstances of this imposition that you had practiced upon him? - No, I never did.
Did you then disclose it to him? - Never.
Daniel Perreau , and where was it, after he was taken up, and charged with the forgery? - I saw him in New Prison, Clerkenwell, a few weeks after he went there.
Recollect at what time you saw him there? - I never set it down.
To that part of the story which is to affect Mrs. Rudd's life, you have sworn with astonishing accuracy, therefore I expect some accuracy as to this part of the subject. Will you tell me whether it was within two days or two weeks after his commitment? - It might be two weeks; he sent his coachman William Freeman to me, and desired I would come to Clerkenwell prison as he wanted to speak to me.
Do you remember the message that he brought? - He told me he was just then come from Mr. Daniel Perreau , who was very desirous of seeing me; that Mr. Perreau said, he recollected my giving some letters to him as coming from Mr. William Adair . William Freeman said, Mr. Perreau had really forgot the directions where I was, but begged of William Freeman to find me out, and he would pay him for his trouble: I went to Mr. Perreau.
Had you not before that heard that they were all committed to prison? - Yes, I had.
It was all over the town, therefore I suppose you heard it the day after? - I don't know that I did so soon as that, I had heard it.
Did you intend to have gone to Daniel Perreau , if he had not sent to you? - I told my master I apprehended that my old master and mistress, and their brother the apothecary, were taken up for a forgery; that when I went to town upon his business, if he would give me liberty to stay half an hour longer than ordinary, I would go and see Daniel Perreau .
When you were in town at your master's lodgings, how far were you from the New Prison? - Between 7 and 8 miles.
Is it that distance from Clerkenwell? - No, I mistook you; my master lives at Edgware, he has no house in town.
When you went to Daniel Perreau , in what manner did he mention the affair to you? - The first word he mentioned was, Moody, you see the unhappy situation I am in. - I said, I was sorry to see it. Do you recollect ever giving any letters to me as coming from Mr. William Adair ? - I perfectly do. Did you make any observations of the date? - I told him I never did. Do you remember the hand-writing? - I told him I did. He said hardly any thing more upon that subject; but begged me to go to his brother's house in Golden-square, where there would be his attorney, or Mr. Cassidy, or some of them, who would examine me; and he desired I would disclose all that I knew of the matter.
I wish you to be very accurate before I put another question to you, and don't recollect by-and-by better than you do now; this was in substance all that passed, was it? - Yes, it was.
Then at this time, when you was sent for by Daniel Perreau , and asked about the delivery of these letters, you did not say a word to him about Mrs. Rudd's having imposed upon him, and your having delivered letters to him as from Mr. Adair that were wrote by Mrs. Rudd? - I told you, Daniel asked me whether I remembered giving letters to him that came from Mr. Adair; I told him I did.
But did you then tell him that these letters which you delivered to him as having come from Mr. William Adair , did not come from Mr. William Adair ? - I did not, I told him I would disclose to his attorney all I knew of the matter.
And then you did not disclose that to him at all? - I did not at all.
Where do you live? - I keep the Union Coffee House, Cornhill.
Do you remember upon any day in December receiving some money from Daniel Perreau ? - I received a draught of Sir Thomas Frankland 's from Daniel Perreau ; I got the money at Mr. Hoggard's the banker's.
How long have you known Mrs. Rudd? - I lived with her as a servant; I went in December 1770, and left her in March 1771.
In what capacity? - House-maid; she was the best mistress I ever lived with.
Did you at any time since her confinement go to Newgate to visit her? - I was almost distracted when I heard of this unhappy accident, but most so for my mistress; I heard that my mistress was in Newgate; I went to see her there.
Do you remember when it was? - It was in June or in July last: I was there twice; the first time was on a Tuesday; she asked me whether I was in lodgings, or kept a house? I told her I kept a house and let lodgings: she asked me if I could let a gentleman and a lady come there without being discovered by the neighbours? I said nothing was more easy. I put my hands together, and said, my dearest madam, if you ever expect to get out of this place, come to my house, and I will never part with you till I get you to Ireland or Scotland. She wanted my husband to go upon some message for her, I told her he was unfit, but I was at her service; she said it was necessary to go to Robert Perreau to find the house-maid Betty, and to know if Robert Perreau 's wife was in town: I told her I would go immediately; I was to enquire for one Molly that was at the Magdalen Hospital, and also to enquire for the coachman. I begged of her to write down what she would have me do, and I would go immediately; she wrote it down upon a little bit of paper.
When did you go again to see Mrs. Rudd? - The next day, which was Wednesday. I told her I had delivered all the messages she sent me with, and that it was impossible to know whether Mrs. Perreau was in town, because the maid came to the door and answered me very pertly. Mrs. Rudd said it would be a great means of saving her life if I would say that Mrs. Perreau had lodgings at my house. I offered Mrs. Rudd two guineas; she said, I don't want money, but I want a sincere friend that will be true to me. She took up some papers, after she had given my little girl a guinea, and said, what I am going to say is as true as God is in heaven, but I cannot find out where it happened. She then asked me if I knew Sir Thomas Frankland ? I asked her if that was the tall Scotch Gentlemen who used to come to their house? She said no, that was a gentleman of Clerkenwell. She told me it was necessary that I should see Mrs. Robert Perreau . I asked her how I should get to see her? She said let me consider of that. After considering a little, she said, Mrs. Perreau is a fair-haired lady, with blue eyes, something like me, but clumsier; and if a black-eyed lady came, I might be sure that was not Mrs. Perreau, but another. I said, well, what must I say when I see Mrs. Perreau? She said I must say I was satisfied. I said, Madam, that is a very odd answer, she will take me before a justice of peace and make me explain my words. Mrs. Rudd said she would take me before nobody but Mr. Wright, and that when he questioned me, I should say I had heard there were two Mrs. Perreaus, and I was now satisfied with the one I knew. I was not to tell my own name, but give in any Scotch name that I remembered, and to say that I lived at Westminster; but I was neither to go home afterwards, nor to go to Newgate to her: and then she said I must see Sir Thomas Frankland . She described him. She said he was a little old man with grey hair, and that I might easily know him again. I told her, though I loved her as my life, I was afraid to meddle with such rich people, and I never was before a justice in all my life. She took up a paper and said, what she was going to tell me was as true as God was in heaven, and I was only to say it happened at my house, She said a great many had offered their service to her, but one in particular.
Did she name any person? - No; but she said she could not put that confidence in them that she could in me. She promised to give me a sum of money; but I cannot be positive whether she mentioned 200 l. or 100 l. but I believe it was 200 l.
Should you know the papers again, if you were to see them? - I wrote my name upon the papers. These are them (pointing out the papers). Here is my name upon them. They were delivered to me by Mrs. Rudd on the Wednesday.
Court. Do you know whose hand-writing it is? - No.
What did she desire you to do with those papers? - That I could never get out of her. I made so many objections to it. I asked what a bond was? She said, it was a piece of paper; and she described what it was. She said the first thing the Jury would ask me, would be what a bond was? She said, she had provided a counsellor and solicitor, and witnesses to back me, and my life was as precious to her as her own; and that my saying that, and that only, would save her life. She gave me the papers to shew my husband, and I was to bring them back to Newgate at four o'clock that afternoon.
What was you to do with the papers in the mean time? - I was to consult my husband about the papers. I told her, my husband was an honest man. She said, if he would agree to it, and 200 l. would not do, it should be ten times more. After I had consulted my husband, I was to bring the papers back; but I never went back.
Was any body present at this conversation? - Nobody but herself and me.
If your husband had agreed to the papers, what were you to do with them? - Whether he agreed or not, I was to return them again at four o'clock.
What use was you to make of these papers?
What was you to have the 200 l. for? - I did not ask what for; I was to come back, and she was to direct me.
You have mentioned something about a Jury that were to ask you questions; what was that about? - She said I was to go to her trial, and to take particular notice of Sir Thomas Frankland 's person; and she said if I agreed to this I should get 200 l.
Agreed to what? - I understood her I was to be at some trial.
What was you to have this paper to carry home and shew your husband for? - I was to consult with my husband, and if he agreed to it, I was to come back; and if he did not, I was to come and tell her, because she had another person appointed. I was to swear all that she had wrote down in these papers.
Then you left Mrs. Rudd, and took the papers away with you? - Yes; I did.
Are these the very identical papers? - They are.
The papers read.
"Perreau used to come often to her house,
"during the last summer, and part of the
"winter, till January, with Mr. Williamson
"of Frith-street, Soho, whom she, Christian
"Hart, hears is gone since January to the
"East Indies; and she did imagine it was a
"private intrigue, and had the curiosity to
"listen and observe them in private: that she
"often saw them writing letters and papers;
"that once in particular she was ordered to
"bring in some pens, and that when she came
"to the table to lay them down, Mrs. Perreau
"had a paper like a bond (and which
"Mrs. Perreau was writing a name to one on
"the left side of the bond, where it is witnessed,
"and one name was wrote; the second was
"lay the pens down, and Mrs. Perreau then
"stopped to look at the pens; and this was
"in or near November. That she often heard
"them mention the names of Adair, Jones,
"and Start while they were writing; and that
"Mr. Williamson once swore a great oath,
"and said he must have a thousand out of the
"next money; and Mrs. Perreau answered
"and said, she was afraid her husband would
"not give him so much: that in January the
"lodging was discharged by Williamson; and
"Mrs. Perreau till about the 6th or 7th of
"last month, June, when she came and asked
"to meet some people on business, that she
"did not chuse to see at home, as every body
"there was on the watch: that she accordingly
"came that evening, with a tallish
"gentleman, young and pitted with the smallpox,
"and wore his own hair; and she
"gentleman then left Mrs. Perreau and him,
"Sir Thomas, together; and she thinking it
"was very odd, listened, and heard them
"agree, that Mrs. Perreau should swear against
"Mrs. Rudd about forging and giving to the
"Mr. Perreau's some bond or bonds that Sir
"Thomas had; that he promised to reward
"her for doing so, and to make interest with
"the King to pardon her husband. She said she
"would do any thing on earth to hang Mrs.
"Rudd, but must be careful not to say what
"would hurt herself. That they must stick
"by each other, for Mrs. Rudd was keen,
"and would, if they did not take great care,
"find them out. A great deal more discourse
"passed, all to the same purpose. Mrs.
"Perreau has met Sir Thomas several times
"since, and all their discourse has been, how
"to contrive to swear Mrs. Rudd's life away,
"and skreen themselves. Mrs. Hart would fain
"have made this discovery sooner, but her
"husband was timorous to meddle with such
"rich folks, because too Sir Thomas swore
"he would hang Mrs. Rudd, if it cost him
"all his fortune; and Mrs. Perreau said she
"and all her family was resolved to do so too:
"but when my husband and I heard, that
"Mrs. Perreau had made a false oath, whereby
"Mrs. Rudd's life was likely to be taken
"away, we could not rest in our beds till we
"discovered and told all the truth, to save
"innocent blood from being spilt by such
(Wrote at the bottom.)
"5th July 1775.
Did you ever see him in your life? - No.
Did you ever see Mrs. Perreau? - No, I never saw her.
This paper your husband took from you? - Yes.
How long after you received it did he have it? - The same day, and it was taken to the justice of peace.
Cross Examination by Mr. Serjeant DAVY.
When did you write your name to these papers? - That very day.
When did you first mention this to your husband and consult him? - As I came down stairs, we went to a public house, my child dropp'd a guinea, my husband asked what that was, I told him it was a guinea my wicked mistress gave the child. My husband asked me for the papers; I said, my mistress wants to hang you and me and all the world; but I said she never shall be brought into trouble for me: my husband was in a great passion at the Horseshoe and Magpie; he struck me and abused me very much, and said he would go to Newgate and know what Mrs. Rudd meant; and he insisted upon having the papers.
Did you give him the papers? - He insisted upon having the papers; and said, if Mrs. Rudd drew me in, he would appear against me, and hang us both; this frightened me a good deal, and I read the papers to him.
How came you before the justice? - He took me there, and I made oath before the justice.
You had been in Mrs. Rudd's service two months, and she had behaved so well to you, that you had a great liking to her? - I had.
That led you to Newgate, and in Newgate passed the conversation you have given an account of between your mistress and you, in which your mistress said, she would give you 200 l. nay, ten times that sum, in order to swear to the particulars in those papers? - Yes.
That was a great sum to offer for a witness, but that was because her life depended upon it: when you parted with your mistress, you had many objections; you was afraid of being found out; you asked what a bond was like: and then she explained to you what sort of man Sir Thomas Frankland was, that you might satisfy the jury: if; I understand you, your objections were for fear you might be found out in swearing all these lies; but you had no objection to swearing of lies? - I was afraid.
At last you agreed to do all this; but you must consult your husband first? - I did not intend to go to her again; I intended to have wrote a polite letter, and sent the papers back.
Then your resolution was not to say a word to your husband about it? - No.
The moment you saw your husband he was angry with you for staying so long; and by and by the child dropt a guinea, and your husband asking what that was, you said it was a guinea your wicked mistress had given the child? - Yes.
That was because you knew his principles were exactly the same as your own? - Yes.
Your husband asked you what you had it for? - No; he asked me what I meant by that; I told him it was given me to hang him and myself and all the world. He wanted to know what I said that for.
And, as you represent it, Mrs. Rudd said it was a true transaction, which she would have you fix to have happened in your house? - Yes.
I observe a very remarkable expression you used,
"I was afraid to meddle with such rich people?" - Yes.
Because I observe that very expression is in the written paper: was this paper produced to you in the manner in which you have represented it; or was it an offer that you made to this Mrs. Rudd, and asked to have what you said you would swear taken down in writing? - It was ready wrote when I came into the room.
Was any thing said about this upon the Tuesday? - She only spoke on Tuesday about my going with some messages for her.
Then you did not offer your service in the lying way? - No.
There was nothing said from you about giving evidence, or telling any lies? - No.
Then the first talk of your telling lies was after the paper was wrote? - Yes.
Before she began to read she told you she wanted you to tell a lie for her? - Yes; and she said what she had wrote was as true as God was in heaven.
Nothing had been said to you about this upon the Tuesday? - No.
Then upon the Wednesday, the paper being ready wrote, she wanted to ask a favour of you; and then she told you that what she had wrote was as true as God was in heaven, and wanted you to say it happened at your house? - Yes; and she explained the papers as she went on.
And then she told you what answers to make when you was cross-questioned? - She did.
And after you had been with your husband you read over these papers? - I did twenty times.
It is necessary one should read a paper very often in order to be-able to swear to it? - I was to remember the last word always: I told her I never was but once at Hicks's-Hall.
Then you was to read and con it over so often as to remember perfectly the last words that were said, and the counsel and solicitor were to be just by in order to help you to go on with the story? - Yes.
Though you resolved from the moment you left Newgate never to do this wicked trick? - I did.
Then why did you take the papers with you? - I was afraid to leave them behind.
When did the justice take the papers from you? About four o'clock on the same day that I came from Newgate.
When was the twenty times that you read these papers after you left Newgate? - While I was deliberating what to do with the papers for an hour, I read them over a great many times.
You are positive it was not a proposal of yours? have you ever seen Daniel Perreau since he was in prison? - Yes, at Clerkenwell Bridewell, before he went to Newgate; I went to see him in the Easter holidays.
This was before she went to Newgate? - Yes.
How long had she been in Newgate before you went to her? - I cannot tell.
Did you see any body with Mrs. Rudd in Newgate? - No; only her counsel.
Look at Mr. Bailey; is that the gentleman? - I think the gentleman was taller than Mr. Bailey; he was in a gown.
Have you ever seen Mrs. Rudd write? - I have seen her write.
Are you acquainted with her hand-writing? - She can write more than one hand.
What do you think of these papers; are they not in her hand-writing? - I positively believe they are.
Did you go to Newgate with your wife; - I did not go with her; I went after her on the Tuesday. She told me her mistress had sent for her.
Court. What she told you is not evidence: did you go to Newgate and find her? - I did: I sent up my name, and desired to speak to her: I went up; Mrs. Rudd and my wife were together: Mrs. Rudd asked me to sit down, which I did. Mrs. Rudd said, she desired I would not be angry with her for sending for my wife: she said she intended to send her children with her. I looked at my wife, and thought it very hard to be troubled with other people's children. Mrs. Rudd said, I need not think that her children-should be a burthen to me: that I might call next day, at nine o'clock, and her counsellor and solicitor would be there, and settle her children with me. She asked me what part of my house was to let: she said if the parlour was to let, that she would have the parlour for the children. My wife replied, the parlour and first floor were let to a gentleman.
Where do you live? - At No 1, in Coombes-court, Well-street, Oxford-road. I said the second floor was to let, and that was more airy for children. She desired me to get iron-rails for the windows, to prevent the childrens falling out, which I did intend to do. We came home, and the next morning my wife and I went, at nine o'clock, to Newgate, and sent up our names. She sent for my wife up, and desired me to wait in the tap-room. I waited there from nine o'clock, I think, till near twelve. About twelve I sent up the man to desire my wife to come down: she came down soon after, and I was in a very great passion. I asked her where the children were? She said there were no children. I asked her what was the reason? she gave me little or no answer; and I saw she was all in a tremble. I said again to her, where are the children? she prayed me, for God's sake, to hold my tongue: she said, if you don't hold your tongue we shall be both taken up; which put me in a great confusion. I saw some papers in her hand: we went to the Horseshoe and Magpie, and there I saw these papers.
Cross Examination by Mr. DAVENPORT.
How long had you been with Mrs. Rudd on the Tuesday? - About ten minutes.
And she desired you to come with your wife next day? - She wrote down directions for my wife to go to several places for her.
Your wife was not with you the first day? -
Yes, she was.
What directions were wrote down? - To go to some of the servants.
Did not Mrs. Rudd desire you to come? -
Yes, with her own mouth.
And yet you was not called up? - No, nor allowed to go up.
Did you see any body else go to or from Mrs. Rudd on Wednesday? - I cannot tell; I saw none that I know of but my wife.
Is he an honest man? - I know nothing to the contrary.
(The bond was read in court, which exactly corresponded with the record.)
Gentlemen of the Jury,
I have now no other reliance but upon you. It is owing to my attendance here as a witness that I am now a prisoner. As to observing upon the prosecutors witnesses, not knowing what they could prove, I am not prepared with remarks upon them. The bias upon Mrs. Robert Perreau 's mind is manifest: I am confident her testimony will not weigh with you; she swears to save the life of her husband. - SirThomas Frankland has behaved in a way sufficiently disgraceful to himself, - Moody, from his own account, must have been a very bad man: the only evidence to prove the forgery is upon this man's belief, that the letters directed in his presence were like the name signed to the bond; this is too loose and vague a testimony to take away any one's life upon. - I have lost my property; I have suffered a dreadful imprisonment; and now my life is to be taken away to save the Perreaus.
The witness Christian Hart is of a most infamous character: who has prevailed upon her to tell this story, I can't say; but can you believe I meant to trust my life to the testimony of one wretched ignorant woman? - I was to give her two hundred pounds, or ten times more! - At that moment, Gentlemen, I had been stripped of all I had in the world, and it was as possible for me to raise a million as two hundred pounds.
Gentlemen, you are honest men, and I doubt not but I am safe in your hands.
FOR THE PRISONER.
You know Mrs. Rudd? - Yes, I do.
Then in the course of her imprisonment you frequently called upon her for the business of advising on her case? - I did.
When did you see her there? - The beginning of July.
Please to tell us what passed between Mrs. Rudd and Christian Hart ? - I am obliged to go a little back to tell you in what manner Christian Hart came there. When Mrs. Rudd and I were sitting together she received a pressing note from somebody to come up; Mrs. Rudd read it, and then threw it across the table to me; it was signed
"and that made Mrs. Rudd smile. The answer she gave to the person who brought up the note was, that she knew no business she had with her, and that she did not desire such visitors: the person belonging to Newgate who brought up the note, I can't recollect now; who it was said the woman had been often there in order to be admitt ed.
Was Christian Hart introduced? - Not then; she came two or three days afterwards. Captain Wright and I were going into Mrs. Rudd's apartment and met Christian Hart coming out; Mrs. Rudd told me that was the woman who had sent up the note which made us both laugh.
Was the person that left Mrs. Rudd the person you just now saw give evidence? - Yes.
When did you at any time afterwards see that woman with Mrs. Rudd? - I believe the very next day. Mrs. Rudd told me that Mrs. Hart had been with her, and told her a very strange incredible story, and she repeated what the woman had told her. I said I could not think there was any probability in such a scheme, and advised her to pay no kind of attention to it. Mrs. Rudd coincided with my opinion; and she said Christian Hart had appointed to be there the next morning, and Mrs. Rudd said she should be glad if I would be there or Mr. Denton her solicitor. I accordingly went the next morning; Christian Hart came about twelve or one, I believe; I did not see Mr. Denton.
Do you know what day of the week this was? - I cannot say.
What passed then? - She sat down with Mrs Rudd at the table at the lower end of the room. Mrs. Rudd asked her to tell me the story that she had told yesterday; upon which Mrs. Hart said, I should be glad, Madam, if you would take it down in writing, for my husband and I are so scrupulously conscientious, that we would not for the world say any thing but what was really true, and therefore I should be glad to shew it to my husband, to know whether every thing in that writing is not precisely the fact; accordingly Mrs. Rudd did take down what she mentioned.
Pray what became of the original? - The original remained in Mrs. Rudd's hands.
How long might this business be about? - Above an hour.
You perfectly well remember the woman? - Perfectly well.
You was present when all this passed? - Yes, I certainly was; and upon a consultation that was had the next evening at Mr. Davenport's chambers I shewed that paper, and said I did not place any reliance upon it, only I thought it my duty as counsel to point out every thing.
Do you recollect coming the morning after to Guildhall, and shewing it to me? - Perfectly well.
And telling then the same story? - Yes.
And my sentiments were the same as yours, that is, that it was a very wild matter? - Certainly it was.
I observe the paper is numbered? - Yes, I numbered it; I numbered all the papers.
Do you know what day in July you delivered it at Mr. Davenport's chambers? - I know it was a day or two after she was with Mrs. Rudd.
Friday the 7th of course was the adjournment day in London, that was the day then you shewed it to me at Guildhall? - I believe it was.
I believe then we were in a course of consultation, as we frequently met at Mr. Davenport's chambers? - Yes.
And you say you mentioned the circumstances at that time? - I did not read the paper in Mr. Davenport's chambers; but I mentioned my opinion of it then as a strange improbable romance, and the counsel were of the same opinion.
Cross Examination by Mr. LUCAS.
Pray, do you recollect when it was that you first saw this woman? - The first time I ever saw Mrs. Hart was coming out of Mrs. Rudd's room.
What time of day was that? - Between five and six in the afternoon.
Was any body with her? - Yes; a child in her arms, which I took for Mrs. Rudd's child; and not having seen her before, I took her to be Mrs. Rudd's servant.
What time was you there on Wednesday? - At twelve o'clock.
You are sure it was twelve o'clock? - I think it was near that time. Mrs. Rudd always dined at two o'clock, and she did not dine till an hour after this conversation.
Hart desired it might be put down in writing? - She did; and Mrs. Rudd wrote it from her dictation.
Is the paper you have marked the original or the copy? - That is the original that has my name on it.
How long did Mrs. Hart stay? - I imagine about an hour.
When was she to return? - At five in the afternoon; and the reason why she appointed that time was because her husband would then have done work.
Did she return at five o'clock? - No; she did not.
Do you know where Mrs. Hart lives? - Yes.
Was you ever at her house? - Yes, that evening.
Did you see her? - No; I saw her husband at the street door smoaking his pipe; I asked him if he was master of the house? he said he was. I asked to see his wife? he said she was out. I asked why she did not come again to Mrs. Rudd? he swore violently that his wife should never go to Mrs. Rudd more.
What time was that? - Near eight o'clock in the evening.
Did you ask him for the paper? - No, never.
How came you to be so anxious about a story which nobody gave credit to, and want her to go again to Newgate? - She might want something else to speak to her about.
Is it a true copy? - Yes, every line; I saw it copied.
Mr. Cowper. For the information of the Jury, you will tell us whether you are not a barrister at law? - I am.
Court. Had you heard upon Wednesday before you called upon Christian Hart , that there had been any thing divulged of this story by Christian Hart or her husband to the justice of the peace? - Not a syllable; I thought her a good natured poor ignorant creature.
Court. Had you carried the original to Mr. Davenport's before you called upon Hart? - No; it was the day afterwards.
Court. Was the consultation after term? -
Yes; the day after term.
Mr. Cowper. I can bring back your recollection of it; if you remember you shewed it me at Guildhall in the morning; we had a consultation that evening at Mr. Davenport's? - Yes.
Court. Had you heard before you told Mr. Cowper at Guildhall, or mentioned it at the consultation, that Christian Hart 's husband had taken the papers to a justice of the peace? - Upon my oath I had never heard that any matter had passed.
And Mrs. Rudd told you she had told the same story to her the day before? - She did.
Could she not as well have told the story to her husband without a copy, as have repeated it over to Mrs. Rudd; I want to know why she should want a copy? - That I cannot say; she wanted it to shew her husband.
Was there any papers wrote by Mrs. Rudd upon Tuesday? - Only the messages she sent me with.
Mr. Bailey. One of the turnkey's wives, Mrs. Wright, attended Mrs. Rudd as a servant, and she came into the room several times. She said, Christian Hart had made several applications at the door of Newgate to have access to Mrs. Rudd.
One of the Jury. Was it upon the second day the papers were given to her? - Yes; but the first day she came she was refused admittance.
When was Mrs. Wright there? - She attended Mrs. Rudd.
Was you there in your gown before this paper was wrote? - I cannot recollect that.
Are you sure whether you was in your gown then or no? - No.
One of the Jury. Do you remember her coming out of the room as you went in? - Yes.
Can you tell whether you had your gown on then or no? - Upon recollecting, I am sure I had not; for Captain Wright and I walked from Charing-Cross together.
Court. Was it the day that Mrs. Wright came in so often, the day when Mrs. Rudd said she did not want any such visitors? - No.
One of the Jury. Did Mrs. Wright come in that day that you and Mrs. Hart and Mrs. Rudd were together? - I recollect she came in once.
To Christian Hart . You are certain there was only one paper wrote on Wednesday, and that is the paper you produced? - It was wrote before I came, and was lying upon the bed, when a woman came into the room; and when a man came into the room in blue cloaths, and I think a laced hat, then she hid the papers.
Who was the man? - I don't know.
To John Hart . Do you remember Mr. Bailey coming in the evening? - Yes, that very day we were at Newgate; he came in the evening between eight and nine o'clock. He asked me, if Mrs. Hart was within? I told him she was not. Said he, Do you know where she is? I said no. What do you want with her? I want her to go down to her mistress immediately? I said, she shall not go out of my door; I would sooner break both her legs. He asked me, what was the matter? I said, why her cursed mistress has given her papers to hang herself and all the world, and I was in a great passion; I told him the papers were taken care of. The sweat ran down Mr.
Did any body apply to you for the papers? - Nobody applied to me for them. I told my wife, when I went from dinner to work, that if she was drawn into it, I would certainly swear against her. She said she was ready to do as I pleased.
Were the papers given up at that time? - The papers were given up to the magistrate three hours before Mr. Bailey came.
Was any thing said about being given up to Mr. Bailey? - I told him I had taken care of them.
Court. Did you tell him you had carried them to a justice? - No.
He said to you, do not be in a passion; and desired you, when it came to the trial to speak the truth, and nothing but the truth; what did you understand him to mean? - I did not know what he meant by it; he took me by the button.
Speak the truth; about what? - About the papers?
When what came to the trial? - The papers came to the trial.
Mr. Cowper. Which came first; did he desire you to speak the truth before or after you told him you had taken care of the papers? - After I had told him that, he said, when you come to the trial speak the truth, and nothing but the truth; and I told him I would.
Court. Had you carried the papers at this time to the justice. - Yes; three hours before.
Mr. Lucas. When you said the cursed woman wanted to hang your wife and you, and all the world, did Mr. Bailey then tell you, that your wife had dictated the paper?
Mr. Bailey. I did not.
Mr. Cowper. Mr. Bailey, have you heard what that man says? - I have.
Is there any truth in it? - He was very violent about his wife; I never asked him about the papers.
Did he tell you at that time, that his wife had got a paper to hang him, and all the world, or to that effect? - He blustered a great deal about the papers; I cannot tell whether he did say these words or no.
He was very indignant about the papers? - He was angry to the last degree.
Did you say any thing to him at that time of his wife having dictated the papers? - No, never.
Court. Did he, during the conversation, call it a cursed paper, or give it any epithet that imported he was very angry at her having such a paper? - No; he said he was angry at her going to Mrs. Rudd, and she should never go to her again.
Did he say the papers were taken care of? - Yes;
"I have taken care of the papers."
When you desired Hart, if it should come to a trial, that he would speak the truth about these papers, what did you mean by saying that to him? - What I told your lordship before; I thought it a very extraordinary transaction; and then, when I found that there was no person coming at five o'clock to tell the truth of the matter, I had some suspicions that these were persons sent to Mrs. Rudd in in order to get out of her as much as they could to turn against herself.
But Hart had not told you at that time that Mrs. Rudd had given any paper to his wife? - No: I then had suspicions and doubts.
What doubt could you have about it, if you was present and heard the woman deliver all that story to Mrs. Rudd? - I doubted very much that she had so much friendship to Mrs. Rudd as she prosessed: I thought rather she was a person sent with an intent to hurt her.
Court. If she was ever so wicked a woman, and told this story, it could not affect Mrs. Rudd, if it was in the manner you represent.
Mr. Cowper. Did you impart these doubts to the counsel at the consultation? - No, I did not.
Court. What did you understand by the answer that he gave you, that he had taken care of the paper? - I did not know what he meant.
One of the Jury. You say you did not ask him for any papers? - No.
Jury to Hart. Did he ask you for any papers? - He only asked me what I had done with them.
You mentioned the papers first? - I did.
You are the turnkey's wife, I believe? - I am.
Did you wait upon Mrs. Rudd when she was in Newgate? - I did.
You know Mr. Bailey; you have seen him? - Yes, going up and down to Mrs. Rudd.
Do you at any time remember having seen him and Christian Hart , the woman that stands next to you, in Mrs. Rudd's room? - I remember Christian Hart coming and saying she should be glad to see Mrs. Rudd. I said she could not cleverly see her then: she insisted upon it that the message had not been carried cleverly up.
Did she see her at that time? - No; she said she was positive the girl did not carry the message cleverly up, but she would write a note; she wrote it, and it was carried up. One Lee there said, if you cannot write I will write for you: she said no, I will write myself.
Did you carry up the note? - No, one Lee carried it up. I believe Mrs. Rudd refused seeing her, and said she would see her another time. Mrs. Hart thought Mrs. Rudd must have made a mistake or she would have seen her, for she said she was an old servant.
Do you remember her coming again? - Yes, I remember her coming once.
Do you remember the time when she was admitted to her? - She sent two or three times, and insisted upon going up stairs: she went up afterwards.
Do you remember her being admitted? - Yes, she was admitted.
When she was admitted, do you or not remember seeing Mr. Bailey and Christian Hart in the room together? - Yes, I can remember they were both together one day a little while: I did not stay at all in the room; my business was to carry messages backwards and forwards.
Court. Who did you leave in the room with Mr. Bailey and Mrs. Rudd? - I cannot tell; Mr. Bailey can.
Was it a man or a woman? - A woman, I believe.
She came again? - Yes.
When was it? - I cannot tell whether it was morning or afternoon: it was afternoon when this woman came the first day.
Was it morning or afternoon the second time? - I believe about dinner-time, but I cannot say positively.
About that time did you see any body in the room with Mrs. Rudd besides that woman? - Mr. Bailey was there.
And that woman? - I cannot possibly say; there was somebody else.
Are you positive Mrs. Hart was there? - Yes.
It was after dinner-time? - It might be after dinner time.
Counsel for the Crown. How long was it after the first time that she came again? - I cannot say.
You waited upon Mrs. Rudd at this time? - Yes.
Was the difference of time a week or a month? - I cannot tell.
What day of the week was that? - I cannot tell.
What month? - I cannot say.
What were they doing when you went into the room? - I cannot say; I saw her once by herself in Mrs. Rudd's room.
Was that time you saw her by herself before you saw her with Mr. Bailey or after? - It was afterwards that I saw her with Mrs. Rudd and Mr. Bailey.
How many days after was it that you saw Mr. Bailey with her? - I cannot say.
Was it the next day? - I cannot tell.
Was it the same day? - No.
Are you sure whether there was any body in the room that time with Mr. Bailey or not? - I do not know that there was.
Do you know Captain Wright? - I do not.
Did you see any man with a gold laced waistcoat? - I cannot tell: there was a man in half mourning.
The paper produced by Mr. BAILEY read.
"PAPERS. No 1."
"Perreau used to come often to her house last
"summer, and part of the winter, with a
"Mr. Williamson of Frith-street, Soho; and
"she did imagine it was a private intrigue;
"and, knowing who Mrs. Perreau was, had
"the curiosity to listen, and observe them in
"private: and she often saw them with letters
"and papers, and remembers once she was ordered
"to bring some pens, and, when she
"came into the room with them, Mrs. Perreau
"was writing a name on the left side of
"a paper, which she took to be a bond, and
"thought was witnessing it, for one name
"was wrote, and part of the other; but, on
"her bringing the pens up to the table, Mrs.
"Perreau stopped to take them: this was in or
"near November. That she once heard Mr.
"Williamson swear a great oath, that he must
"have 1000 l. and Mrs. Perreau said, she was
"afraid her husband would not let him have
"so much: that in the latter end of January,
"Mr. Williamson discharged her lodging, and
"she hears he is since that gone to the East
"Indies: she often heard the name of Adair,
"Jones, and Hart: that she saw nothing more
"of this Mrs. Perreau till the 6th or 7th of
"June last, when she came and asked Christian
"Hart if she could spare a room for her, to
"meet some people upon business that she did
"not chuse to see at home, as every one there
"was on the watch: that she accordingly did
"come with a tallish gentleman, young and
"pitted with the small-pox, and wore his own
"hair; she called him brother: soon after an
"elderly gentleman came, whom she knew
"other gentleman left them together; and
"she listened, thinking it very odd, and heard
"them agree that Mrs. Perreau should swear
"against Mrs. Rudd, about forging, or giving
"her husband some bonds that Sir Thomas
"had got; and he promised to reward her
"for doing so, and said he would make interest
"with the King to pardon her husband:
"that she said she would do any thing to
"hang Mrs. Rudd, and so would all her family;
"but she was afraid she would herself
"be discovered by so doing: that the gentleman
"said no, he would take care of that;
"and that they must stick to each other;
"for, if they did not, Mrs. Rudd was so
"keen she would find them out, and then
"they would be in a hobble: a great deal
"more passed of the same sort. Mrs. Perreau
"and Sir Thomas has had many meetings
"since, and all their discourse has been how
"to contrive to swear Mrs. Rudd's life away,
"and skreen themselves: that she, Christian
"Hart, would have discovered this sooner, but
"her husband was timorous in saying any
"thing concerning the affair, and against such
"rich folks; for he heard Sir Thomas swear
"he would spend all his fortune but he would
"hang Mrs. Rudd; and Mrs. Perreau said
"know till last week where Mrs. Rudd was;
"for she heard them say she was taken care
"of, and that she was safe; and she, Christian
"Hart, did not know, when they said
"she was safe, that they meant safe in a gaol:
"but, on hearing that Mrs. Rudd was swore
"against by Mrs. Perreau, and her life going
"to be falsely taken away, they could not
"rest in their bed until she discovered and
"told the truth, to save innocent blood's being
The above paper was indorsed as follows:
"This account was taken down in writing
"by Mrs. Rudd, in the presence of Counsellor
"words and dictating, who voluntarily came
"upon Wednesday morning, July 5, 1775,
"the said information, and promised to return
"at five o'clock in the evening to make
"oath of it, if required.
Court. It is plainly a paper wrote from recollection; but it is no more like a copy than if a person was to endeavour to write again upon the same subject, and transposing some in one part, and some in another, and omitting some. Mr. Bailey said, that this in my hand was the copy given to Mrs. Hart by Mrs. Rudd, and the original was signed by Mr. Bailey.
Court. He said they were both wrote at the same time.
Mr. Serjeant Davy. It is in substance a copy.
Do you know Mrs. Rudd? - Yes; I have known her eight years.
Do you know any thing of her fortune at the time of her connection with Mr. Perreau? - When her husband Rudd left her she was very much distressed: a gentleman allowed her 5 or 600 l. a year; she lived in a genteel manner; he gave her 16,000 l. In October 1770, she received 4000 l. in my presence; in March 1771, she received 3000 l. and some hundreds; I cannot charge my memory exactly, I believe about 700 l.
Was that before her connection with Mr. Perreau, or since? - Since her connection with Mr. Perreau.
This was part of the 16,000 l.? - Yes.
One of the Jury. Was it given her by will? - No: it was left in a trustee's hand; she received 7700 l. at twice.
How do you know that these are parts of the 16,000 l.? - Because I was present when the money was paid; it was left in the hands of a very near relation of mine that was the trustee.
Court. Do you know that he was a trustee of 16,000 l.? - I have heard him say so; I know perfectly well the gentleman who left it her.
Cross Examination by Mr. MURPHY.
I must beg the favour of knowing who the person was? - I will not tell.
Was the money left by will? - No, it was not.
Was there any writing about it? - It was left in the hands of a trustee.
Then you can tell us the trustee perhaps? - I don't chuse that.
Then we are not to know the trustee, nor the donor, nor when it was paid: in whose presence was it paid? - In my presence.
Where was it paid? - At Mr. Perreau's house in Pall-mall. In October 1770, she received 4000 l.
Who paid the money? - The trustee.
In what manner? - He paid her 4000 l. down.
Was a receipt given? - Yes.
Was there any witness to it? - Yes, I was a witness.
It is no evidence in my apprehension unless you tell us who the trustee is?
Court. There can be no imputation upon the trustee, if you would tell us who the man is that is trustee?
Where do you live? - In - street, Golden-square.
In a house of your own? - No.
Where did you see this money paid? - Just facing the Spread Eagle at Epsom, in a house of my own.
Who was your next door neighbour? - Mrs. Forster.
How long have you known Mrs. Rudd? - Before her connection with Mr. Perreau.
Do you know of any fortune she had? - No, none.
Do you know Mr. Salvador? - I know him if I see him.
Do you know any thing about Mr. Salvador's having money of her's in his hands? - No.
A Witness sworn.
I believe you are a broker? - I am.
The Jury brought in their Verdict, "according
"to the Evidence before us," NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the first Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON, 8th December 1775.
Court. Did you know the person that was indicted by the name of Watson, otherwise Davis, some time ago? - Yes.
Is he in Court? - Yes; he is at the bar.
Was you concerned in taking him up at that time? - No; but I am positive he is the man. I apprehended him this time near the Pantheon, Cold-Bath-Fields, in consequence of an information sent to Sir John Fielding's office. The prisoner was concealed in a house by the Pantheon; we got into the house, went up two pair of stairs, and found him under a bed.
When was he transported? - In the year 1769.
Was you particularly acquainted with him? - Yes, so well, that if I had seen him at large I would have taken him into custody.
Did he say any thing to you when he was apprehended? - He asked what we wanted.
Did you know of his being at large before you had this information? - No.
You say you had not seen him before this information? - No.
You did not take him up upon your own knowledge? - I knew him as soon as I saw him.
Was it in the beginning or latter end of the year 1769 when he was tried? - I believe it was the month of August of September.
You take a great many men in the space of a year, do you not? - Yes.
Are you so positive to know one man from another among the crowd of prisoners you apprehend? - I know him as well as I do any person, and for some particular reason. If you want to know the reason I know him so well, I will tell you; I am positive to the man.
Do you know where the rest of the sailors are? - No; I saw the chief mate about three weeks ago.
Do you recollect seeing the man at the bar in America? (after looking about for some time, said) - I know him very well, and saw him in America; he came aboard the Grosvenor at New York to see some acquaintance, and drank pretty free: he asked leave to go on shore, but the captain had given orders that no man should go on shore, there being only eleven of us: he asked two or three times to go ashore, but the captain refused; he said no man should go on shore: they consulted together, but I cannot say what passed.
Upon your oath is it truth that the captain is gone abroad? - Yes; I was only subpoenaed last night, and little thought of coming here.
Did the prisoner tell the captain the reason he wanted to be put on shore? - I did not hear; the captain gave that order the night before.
Was the order given before he came on board? - Yes.
Did the rest tell him of that order before he got on board? - I do not know.
When did you arrive in England? - We came to England four or five weeks before Christmas the year 1773; we came to Chatham. We sailed from America, September 1773; we were about six months from England. When the ship arrived at Chatham every man was discharged.
When the ship arrived at Chatham, the owner of the ship hired men to clear her out, and every hand was discharged; she was an old East-Indiaman. I never saw the last witness since that time till Monday afternoon: Mr. Nixon sent him to Newgate to me; my wife had heard of this man.
[Tamis was again called, and said Mr. Nixon sent him to see the prisoner in Newgate.]
During the voyage did you know that this man was in America on transportation? - No, I did not: I knew the man very well, he was my mess-mate: the cook was taken ill, and he was ordered to assist in cooking.
Was the Captain aboard when the prisoner came? - I cannot say.
Did the prisoner know before he came on board that such orders were given? - I don't know; it was the night before we sailed.
Is it usual for the captain to let strangers come on board after giving such orders, as any person my be carried off in that way? - The captain said no man should go on shore: I
NOT GUILTY . - Referred back to his former Sentence.
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
Was it a house or a shop you had there? - A house.
Gave you an account of what you lost, and when? - On the eleventh of July last, about six o'clock, I went out and left the prisoner at home: his employment was to drive me, but he did not answer that purpose. I took another person, and left him at home. I returned about half past seven o'clock, when I asked the maid where William was; she said he was gone out. I went into the back parlour, and missed two gold watches and three silver ones; they were hanging under the chimney glass when I went out. I opened the parlour cupboard, and all the cash I had in the house was gone. I saw it in a box in the cupboard, and put five guineas in it not five minutes before I went out, as I did not chuse to carry it with me. There were sixty-eight guineas in gold, six crown-pieces, some half-crown-pieces, and about twenty shillings in silver. I heard nothing of them nor the prisoner since they were taken till last Monday was a week, when I was sent for to Sir John Fielding 's. There was one gold watch found in the house where he was taken, and the other in a pawnbroker's. (A gold watch was produced; the witness said it was his watch, that which he usually carried in his pocket. He looked at another watch, and said it was his property; it had an outside shagreen case, but he had the gold outside case in his pocket.)
Are those the watches you lost that day? -
Yes, they are. I have nothing more to say, only beg that your Lordship and the Gentlemen of the Jury will be as favourable as you can, as he is but a young man. He lived with me about four months.
JAMES DUCK . What have you to say? - I am servant to Mr. Davison, pawnbroker, in High-street in the Borough. On the 17th of October, between eight and nine o'clock in the morning, the prisoner came to our house and asked half-a-guinea on that gold watch (pointing to one of the watches which Mr. Younker deposed belonged to him). I am sure this is the watch with a shagreen case. I asked him where he lived; he said in the Borough. He was not dressed as he is now: he had light-coloured cloaths; from his dress I took him for a baker. I asked him if the watch was his own; he said it was a family affair, and he would not lose it for never so much: he desired me to take great care of it: this was all that past. I am sure that is the watch he left with me.
Did Mr. Younker come and look at the watch? - Yes, he did, and said it was the watch-he had taken out of his house. I am not certain what day of the month the gentleman came; it was Monday was a week.
JOHN CLARKE . Some time ago Mr. Younker gave information at Sir John Fielding's office that he had been robbed, and his servant had absconded. Sunday was a week a letter was sent to our office that the prisoner was with his father on the other side of Westminster Bridge. I went with some other officers, and found the prisoner at the bar in his father's house. I asked his father if his son had brought any thing there; if he would not tell me I would search. The prisoner told me where that plain gold watch was in a cupboard by the side of the fire-place (after looking at one of the watches produced, said it was the watch he found by the prisoner's direction). We took him into custody that night; on Monday evening he was examined: the prosecutor was sent for, and the prisoner told him the whole matter, and where he pawned the other watch; that he robbed his master of two gold watches and three silver ones and money; that he went down to Staffordshire; that he hid the money in a field at Blackstone in Staffordshire, but somebody took it away.
When my master went out one William Taylor came to me and asked me if I would go with him into the country and he would pay my expences. He brought with him a small parcel wrapped in brown paper. We went together, and came to the King's-Head at Coventry; next morning we parted: he gave me this parcel at parting, and desired me to carry it in my pocket to Birmingham, where he promised to meet me on the Saturday following; but he did not. He told me that the parcel belonged to him: I opened it, and found five watches therein.
Have you any witnesses to prove this, or to speak to your character? - None here.
GUILTY . Death .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
What do you know of your house being broke open? - I left the house about six in the evening, and left no body in the house: my husband was not at home; I returned between eight and nine o'clock, and found the outer door, and another door, part of which is glass, both laid open: when I went out they were both shut and fastened: I was much surprised when I saw them open, and would not go in till I had called all my neighbours. I found when I went in that the chest, full of my wearing apparel, was gone; which contained a black negligee, blue paduasoy nightgown, pompadour silk gown, white lutestring gown and coat, a white muslin night gown, two sets of car-rings, one of paste, the other garnets; a cotton counterpane; these were all in the chest: I saw it that night before I went out, and every thing in it.
Did you find any of your goods again? - On Sunday the 4th of November one Mr. Jones told me I must go to a justice Durden: I went, where I saw the prisoners and some of the goods. The justice ordered me to come next day at ten o'clock: some of my goods were brought in a bag when I was at the justice's. (The goods produced.)
Prosecutrix deposed they were part of the goods taken out of her house the night the robbery was committed.
What do you know against the prisoners? - They broke my house open.
How do you know that? - I am very sure, for they threatened to do it before.
Are you acquainted with the prisoners? - No: they broke my window, and before that threatened to break open the house.
Prisoner Langford asked if she could swear that he broke her window? - She said I can.
Did you ask how they came by them? - No: I took the goods to a neighbour's house that night.
Are you sure the prisoners brought those things? - Yes; I have seen them many times before; I had a light in the house: there was another young woman with me.
What business do you follow? - No business: I once kept a chandler's shop in Peter-street, Westminster, but broke: I keep none now.
Where do you live? - New Way, Westminster,
The prisoners asked, why she did not take them to the justice at first? - When the justice sent for me on a Sunday, I went, and carried those things with me.
Court. You don't know how the justice came to know of your having the goods? - I know nothing of that,
One of the prisoners asked if the witness could swear that they confessed before the justice? - She said, upon my oath, they did.
EDWARD ROYD . Mr. Jones and I took the prisoners. They acknowledged the fact before the justice. The one said to the other, if you will not turn evidence, I will: when Mrs. Ross came, the justice admitted her as an evidence.
The prosecutrix was asked, if her husband lived with her? - Who said, he did not.
For Langford. ELIZABETH HIGBY . I am John Langford 's mother. I must say my boy is a very good boy to me, and never offended me in the least; I have nothing to say against my child, he is a dutiful son to me.
SUSANNAH SMITH . Samuel Smith is my son, I never knew him guilty of any bad thing before he fell into this bad company. That hussey (pointing to Ann Ross ) has not told the truth. My son was fourteen the 6th of November, the day he went to Newgate. She has hanged her husband, brother, and many more.
[By desire of the Prisoner the Witnesses were examined separate.]
BENJAMIN VILES . I am a butcher , and live in Oxford Market ; I have known Charles Chapman the prisoner five or six years; he was apprentice to a butcher in Oxford Market, but run away. On Saturday night, the 2d of December , my wife called out that they were robbed and ruined; I ran from the shop where I was to the house, about forty yards distance, and found the parlour window broke open; no body was in the house, we were all at the shop. My wife was just going home to make the bed when she discovered it; a pane of glass was broke in the window: he had put in his hand and unscrewed that which secured the shutters; the bureau in the fore parlour was broke, and a note of 30 l. gone, which was in the bureau: I had not been in the house since morning.
Did you see the note again? - Yes; I have it here.
Do you know who it is signed by, or the number and date? - No.
How do you know then that it is yours? - To the best of my knowledge it is the same; I had not seen it for three weeks before. (The Note was produced in Court by Mr. Barker.)
BENJAMIN VILES the prosecutor, look at the note; can you swear that that is the note you lost? - No; not positively: I lost between four and five pounds, besides two guineas in gold, six and thirty and six-pence: the prisoner gave it to one Benjamin Lewis , who took him about half an hour after the robbery was committed; I heard him acknowledge the robbery: there was likewise a silver studd I have had these twenty years, which I know to be mine by a twist in the bottom, found on the prisoner.
BENJAMIN LEWIS . Hearing of Mr. Viles being robbed, I went to him; he said there were some people whom he suspected: we missed the prisoner from the market; Mrs. Viles desired me to look after him: I went into the sign of the Red Lion, in Oxford-street, and there found him: I desired him to go with me; and coming near the market, he seemed unwilling: I told him he must go to Mr. Viles; he then said it did not signify denying it; he took out a handkerchief, and gave me the note, and three or four pounds in money: I took the note, but desired him to give my uncle the money, I gave the note to Mrs. Viles.
Did you see him deliver the money to Mrs. Viles? - When he came to the door he took it in his hands and threw it on the ground, and said that he had lost or mislaid it, and said that was all; I saw him throw the money down at Mr. Viles's door.
[Mrs. Viles was again called, and asked if she saw the prisoner throw the money down at the door? she said she did not see it herself, but that her daughter and Benjamin Lewis , and the watchman, saw him: Lewis said he was not half a minute about it.]
JOHN AYRES (son-in-law to the prosecutor) I had a suspicion of the prisoner as I saw him go past my father's shop door after ten o'clock, when we discovered that the house had been broke open: I went with Mr. Lewis in search of the prisoner, and found him at the Red Lion, in Oxford-street: I stood at the door; Mr. Lewis went in and brought him out; when coming down Oxford-street, he said it did not signify denying it, he was the person.
Was you at Mr. Lewis's door when the prisoner threw down the money? - Yes; he threw it down with violence, and said that was the money: my father's man picked up two guineas in gold, and six and thirty and sixpence in silver, which the prisoner threw down.
Please you, my Lord, I am guilty of the fact; but it is my first offence. When Lewis took me at the Red Lion, I might have destroyed the note; but he told me, if I would deliver up his uncle's property he would not hurt me.
Mr. Lewis was asked if he said so? - He said he told the prisoner, if he would deliver up the property, Mr. Viles would be as easy as the law would admit of.
GUILTY . Death .
JAMES BENTLEY . On the 17th November , just by the London Hospital, Whitechapel-road , between eight and nine in the evening, I was robbed of a metal watch, a steel chain, two metal seals, and about twelve shillings in silver: it was light enough; being between two lamps I saw the prisoner Burford Camper , who stood before me. When I met them one passed me and turned back again, took hold of me, and made me fall back against the wall, and held a knife to my throat, and bade me deliver my money: I am pretty sure it was Camper held the knife to my throat. They pressed me against the wall, and took the money out of my pocket, and the watch. I do not recollect either of the other prisoners, but one of my seals was found on one of them. I took no notice of any but Camper, who stood before me. They wanted to take out my buckles: I told them they would be of no use.
JOSEPH COLLINS . The last day the prisoners were examined at justice Sherwood's curiosity led me there with Mr. Bentley. There were two seals taken out of Hatch's pocket (Constable produced the seals). This seal I gave to Mr. Bentley: I can swear to the setting of it, that it is the same. (Mr. Bentley was desired to look at those seals, which he did, and deposed they were those he had to his watch the night he was robbed).
JOHN FARRELL , Constable. I think it was on a Thursday or Friday the 20th of November, I am not certain as to the day, one Dumon came to me and described the three prisoners at the bar, and said they were gone into the fields.
How long is it since that man told you of the prisoners going out into the fields? - I think it was the 22d of November: he said they wanted him to go out with them and get some money. We went after them, and found the three prisoners sitting in a public-house, the sign of the Castle, in Red Lion-street. We brought them to the justice, and they were committed. He told them that they were to be examined on Monday. The gentleman swore to Camper. The seals were found on Hatch the prisoner, which Mr. Bentley swore to.
JOHN DICKENSON . I am servant to the governor of Clerkenwell Bridewell. We were told that there were three people gone a robbing: we went and found the three prisoners at the Castle in Red Lion-street. On searching the prisoners I took this knife, which I have in my hand, out of the prisoner Hatch's pocket, likewise these two seals. On Monday Camper said the knife was his, and begged me to return it.
Do you know the prisoner Camper? - Yes, four years; I never knew any thing bad of him.
What observation took you of him? - I knew him by his dress, his hair, and face.
Are you now positive that he was one of them? - Yes.
When you saw him at Mr. Sherwood's office, was you positive? - Yes; he had a close-bodied brown great coat, with a round hat; this was on the Monday after I was robbed.
Are you positive that those are your seals, and that they were to your watch at the time he stopped your person? - Yes; I charged him immediately as soon as I saw him. Mr. Sherwood asked me, if I could swear that he was the person; I told him I could; and did swear.
I never saw the gentleman in my life before, but at justice Sherwood's office.
On Wednesday night I went into the Castle to drink a pint of beer, where I met with this young fellow, who said I might drink with him. I had scarce drank when these gentlemen came in, and desired me to sit up. I said, if they insisted I would. They took me into a back room and searched me. This gentleman (meaning Mr. Bentley) came to the justice, and said he was not sure of me. They searched me a second time, and found those seals now produced, which I bought of a Jew.
[The constable was called, and asked, if he searched him twice? who said, that he did, but found nothing on him the first time.]
TIMOTHY M'DANIEL . What business are you? - I am a victualler. I have known the prisoner Camper since he was a year old. He has been very honest so far as ever I heard; he never did any thing bad, but behaved as a dutiful son to his mother, and a dutiful nephew to his uncle.
MARK MINON . I am a labourer. The 20th of last month I went into one Petro's, in Pye-street, Westminster ; I was very much fudled, between seven and eight in the morning; I had ten half-guineas, and two whole ones, in a purse, a kind of a bladder, and a silver watch: I called for beer, and drew out this purse to pay for it, and this woman came in with another. I got more beer, and had my pocket picked of the money and my watch.
How much had you to pay for the beer? - I don't know.
Did they sit by you? - I don't know: I fell asleep, and cannot well say when I awoke; but when I did, I missed my money and watch: I did not take notice of missing it when they first went out. Mr. Petro asked me, if I had not a watch? - I said, yes; but did not know what was become of it. He said the prisoner had taken it?
What did you do when you awoke? - I was carried before a justice to prove the watch. I knew I had lost both money and watch before I went out. Jones and Wright took me before the justice, likewise the prisoner.
Was there any body but the prisoner with you in the house? - Yes; there were three women. Next morning, when I was more sober, I was carried before the justice again to give an account of what I had lost.
What do you labour in? - I attend a bricklayer.
How came you to have all this money? - I was earning it this year and half, and sweated much for it.
You did not perceive that your money and watch was gone till you awoke? - No.
Was this woman in your company? - Yes, she was.
When you awoke was she there or not? - No; when Petro found I had lost my watch, he sent for them back again. (The watch was produced and sworn to by the prosecutor.)
Is Petro here? - I don't know: I gave him notice to come.
What day in the week did it happen? - On a Tuesday.
HENRY JONES . Mr. Wright and I went down to the public house in Pye-street, as he has told you. When on our way to the justice the prisoner took out three guineas, and gave to me to keep for her, in case she should be sent to Newgate. The prosecutor said, he had no money: as soon as Mr. Wright went in, he said, give me the watch. The prisoner gave it him, and said she had it of the prosecutor to keep for five shillings. Mr. Petro said the prosecutor had not money to pay for his beer, and a glass he had broke.
I was called out of bed to this man; when I came in there were two girls in company with him, and a good many people in the house; but he gave me the watch in the passage to keep for five shillings.
[The prosecutor said he would prove that Mr. Jones the last witness had said he got more money from the girl. To support this Mrs. Skeefe was called, and asked if any declaration was made by Henry Jones concerning the money he had from the prisoner? She deposed, he said he had got three guineas and a half; half a guinea went in expences.]
Did he say any thing about the purse? - No.
NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
SAMUEL DALES . I am a wholesale linen-draper in Cheapside . On the 21st October last the prisoner turned hastily out of my warehouse; I being in the back part of it saw him, and thought it was with no good intention he came there. I perceived two pieces of Irish linen gone which lay on the counter; I ran out, and cried stop thief: we took him back to the warehouse, and took out of his apron these two pieces of Irish cloth, which are my property. When I took the linen from him, I asked the reason why he took them, but he gave me no answer. I delivered him into the hands of a constable, who carried him to the Compter. I did not know the prisoner before. (The linen produced.)
Where have they been since? - In the constable's hands; but he has been very bad.
Can you swear, that that is your linen? - Yes; I can swear that those are what I took from the prisoner, and likewise that they are mine.
JASPER FOX. I am a servant to Mr. Dales. I know the linen very well (After looking at the linens produced, said) I am positive that they are my master's linen, and that they were taken from the prisoner.
There was one gave them to me out of the gentleman's shop, and bade me carry them away.
Mr. Dales was again called, and asked, Do you know that that is the boy who was in your shop? - Yes; I went directly out, but lost sight of him for about half a minute: I cried stop thief, and he looked about: I believe him to be the same boy.
GUILTY . T .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
THOMAS HOARE . I live at Farnham in Surry , and am a cutler by trade: in November last I lost a silver watch, a cornelian seal, a pair of silver buckles, and a pair of leather breeches. I went to bed about eleven o'clock: the things were in a chair, and a person came into my bed-room and took them when I was asleep. The door was shut, but not locked: there was no body else lay in the room that night.
JOSEPH ANGUS . I am constable of St. Martin's, Ludgate. On the 31st of October it was my night to attend at St. Bride's watch-house. Thomas Langford and another person brought down the prisoner at the bar to our watch-house, charged with robbing Thomas Hoare of a watch and three guineas: I examined the prisoner, and found a pair of silver shoe buckles, a pair of knee buckles, and a pair of breeches upon him, which the prosecutor swore to be his property. I likewise found on the prisoner a pawnbroker's duplicate for a watch. He owned that the buckles and breeches were the property of Thomas Hoare ; said he was a clockmaker , and went to work at Farnham: he was late out on a Saturday night, and went home with his master's son; his master insisted he should be let in; he was in the room some time, was taken ill, and put on the prosecutor's breeches, shoes, and buckles in a mistake, and went down stairs; that he was ashamed of it, and when it was day-light he set off for London.
JOHN SALTER . I am a pawnbroker: on the 11th of October I took a watch in pledge from the prisoner at the bar. He redeemed it on the 14th, and pledged it again on the Monday following (The watch was produced).
I was out rather too late that night, and walked home. The prosecutor told me he came from London: we had some discourse together. I said I had not been long from London, and had a wife and three children there. Mr. Hoare lent me those things for a week or fourteen days. Mr. Hoare was in liquor.
The Prosecutor was asked if it was true that he had lent them to the prisoner? he said he never saw the prisoner till he was called before Alderman Plomer.
GUILTY . T .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
JAMES PALMER . I am a haberdasher in Cornhill . On Friday the 24th of November one of my servants brought in the prisoner to the shop, charged with taking some pieces of riband from the counter. He made no scruple in confessing; but took out of his pocket what we have here: some of them I can swear to, and some I cannot. (Eight pieces produced, and deposed to by the witness.) The prisoner hoped I would forgive him when he took them out of his pocket.
Where have they been since? - In the hands of the constable; there is a particular mark in the block of the ribands.
When you sell ribands do you keep the block? - No.
May you not have sold riband of this value, and with this very mark? - Most certainly.
If that was brought into your shop, should you know it? - We should know the mark, if we did not know the riband.
SAMUEL HOWE . On Friday the 24th November, about four o'clock in the afternoon, the prisoner came into the shop, and asked for some riband, to about the amount of eighteen pence. Instead of paying for those he had bought, he wanted the young man to shew him some others; I looked at him, and perceived his countenance alter. He ran out of the shop towards Gracechurch-street: I followed him. He took two or three pieces of riband, and threw them in the street. I passed them and overtook him; he readily came back with me to Cogan and Palmer's. (The witness was desired to look at the ribands, who said they were his master's property.)
Which are the two pieces you can swear to? - I do not put the mark on any of them; but from my knowledge of the writing and the riband I think they are the same. One Edward Stroud puts the mark on the ribands.
Does not your master deal very largely in ribands? - Yes.
THOMAS LLOYD . The prisoner came into our shop about the 24th of November, and enquired for divers sorts of ribands; said he would have some four-penny, I measured him that: he enquired for some coloured riband, I gave him a yard of that: he likewise enquired for some plain. I saw, as I turned about, that he was putting some ribands in his pocket under his coat.
I put no ribands at all under my coat.
GUILTY . T .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
JOSIAH SAUNDERS . I am brother to Joseph Saunders , who is a grocer . On Saturday the 25th of last month the prisoner came in and took a loaf of sugar that was standing in the shop window. I was in the back parlour and saw him take it, and one of the witnesses took it from him.
[The prisoner said that the witness could not swear to him when before the Lord Mayor; and the witness said he could not then swear positively, it being a little dark, but he was such a person.]
THOMAS GIBBS . I live servant almost opposite to Mr. Saunders. I can swear that the prisoner is the person from whom I took the loaf of sugar. This little fellow came running by me with something under his arm; I took the sugar from him.
Is that sugar now produced like that which you took from the boy? - Yes.
I was coming from my master's, and went up near the shop to ease myself. A man came by me in a great hurry and laid down that sugar: I looked at it and thought it was mine, and carried it away; and a gentleman came and said I had stolen it out of his shop.
Have you any witnesses? - I have not a friend in the world.
GUILTY . T .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
For want of evidence, NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
18. JAMES HARRISON , indicted for stealing in the dwelling-house of Sir George Young , Baronet, in the parish of St. Mary le Bone, a paper machee snuff box, mounted in gold, and a silk sacque and petticoat, value 5 l.
Do you know of any thing being lost in his house? - I know no farther than that I saw Sir George and his lady at Mr. justice Welsh's office own the gown and snuff-box as their property. I have often seen the gown worn by my lady; the snuff-box was Sir George's; I don't know any thing of it: I am sure that gown which I saw at the office was the same my lady wore.
Do you know any thing of the prisoner? - I have seen him before.
SUSANNA NICHOLS . I live as kitchen maid at Sir George Young 's; I know the silk sacque and petticoat to be my lady's. (The gown produced.) I am sure that is my lady's gown: I was left in care of the town-house; I cannot
Do you know any thing of the prisoner? - Yes; in August last I let him into the house twice to hang bells; I had other workmen in the house, and could not stay with him, as I had to answer at the door: the gown was in my lady's bed-chamber, and I knew nothing of its being missing until my lady came to town.
WILLIAM WARD . I am a pawnbroker, and live in Holborn; this snuff-box I took in of Harrison the prisoner; I lent him a guinea and a half on that and several other things, which have since been delivered up to lady Young. The prisoner was better dressed then than now: I have known him these three years; he has pledged several things with me, but always took them out.
JOHN ADAMS . I know nothing of the robbery; I have had these things in my custody some time: the prisoner owned every thing, acknowledged that he took the gown and petticoat, with several other things, out of Sir George Young 's house.
Were there any promises made him before he confessed? - No; he was detected before he confessed: I said, as the case stands, if you will confess where the things are, I will speak to the judge and the gentlemen of the jury, and do what I could; but I did not promise that he should not be prosecuted.
EBENEZER ABERKEEN . About the 20th of October last the prisoner applied to me to buy this sacque and petticoat, but I did not know any thing of the snuff-box: he told me he had some goods at Mr. Preston's in Prince's-street, and some in Mr. Ward's in Holborn; I took them out of Ward's, and advanced money upon them: this is the very gown he brought to me; he offered it for three guineas, and I gave him seven guineas for it and several other things: he said that his sister was in keeping by an East India merchant, and that they were her property: I thought he had not come honestly by them, and told him I would give no more money until he brought his sister: he told me her name was Ann Harrison , and that she lived at Richmond; I went to Richmond next morning and made enquiry, but could find no such person.
The prisoner made no defence; but said, he left it to the mercy of the jury.
GUILTY of stealing to the value of thirty-nine shillings . T .
ANN HENDERSON . Do you know any thing of the goods taken from Mr. Selby? - I locked them all up when I went out, and they were gone when I returned: several sacques the property of Miss Selby, a silk tabby coat and loose bodied sacque and coat of Mrs. Selby's; they are here, and I am sure that they are Mrs. Selby's property.
Are those the goods belonging to Mrs. Selby? - Yes; I know them very well: I am Mrs. Selby's maid.
WILLIAM WARD . I had these things from the prisoner; a pale silk and a clouded silk sacque I had from Harrison, which he pledged last August, and fetched out again the 20th October. I do not recollect what particular goods; but I gave him four guineas for the whole of what he left.
GUILTY of stealing to the value of thirty-nine shillings . T .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
DENIS HURLEY . I live in Holborn at one Mr. Dobson's; I went out of my room between five and six in the evening, and came home about eleven or twelve o'clock, and found the skins gone, and a pair of leather breeches. When I went out I locked the door, and left in the room between three and four hundred rabbit skins; my wife went along with me: a quilt off the bed and a piece of cotton out of my chest were gone, and likewise a pair of leather breeches: I value the quilt at about eight shillings, the cotton at twenty-four shillings
Can you undertake to swear that these are the skins you lost? - Yes, I can; for the rest are all grey skins; there is another little bundle consisting of about three dozen black and white skins, the rest of the bundles have all five dozen in each.
How do you know the bundles? - Because I have had them a long time in the house; they are the very same I lost.
What have you to say against the prisoners? - They live next door to me, and I suspected them: he come into my room the evening before we went out; he knew what situation we were in. We got a search warrant, and searched his lodgings, but found nothing; we gained intelligence of the things afterwards at a pawnbroker's.
The prisoner Elizabeth Durham desired the witness might be asked, If he did not know her to be an honest industrious woman? - The prosecutor said, he had no great knowledge of her, but believed she might be so.
THOMAS BELLAN . I was at a justice of the peace, near Clerkenwell, when the prosecutor came for a search warrant, alledging that his house had been robbed. I and two more officers went to the pawnbroker's with the prosecutor, where we found the cotton. We apprehended the woman first, and found the man in bed, stark naked, on the Monday following. Justice Blackborow ordered them into custody: the justice told them the consequence if they did not confess where the skins were; we found them at a house on Saffron-hill, by direction of one Mr. Bulbridge.
JAMES BULBRIDGE . I keep a room at a house at Cow-Cross. The prisoner's wife came and brought a piece of linen, and asked my wife where she could pawn it, who directed her. The pawnbroker offered her 12 s. she wanted 16 s. for it: she consented to take 12 s. at last, but the pawnbroker would not give it till she brought some person that knew her. She came to me, and I went with her, and told the pawnbroker I believed she was a very honest woman, and that it was her own property; whereupon the pawnbroker gave her the 12 s. upon the linen.
Do you know any thing of the rabbit skins? - Yes; the prisoner sent for me next day, and told me he was like to be brought into a scrape. I don't know any thing further of them, only that he desired I would sell them for him.
The prisoners desired the witness might be asked, What he knew of their characters? - He said they were industrious, honest people, so far as ever he had heard.
WILLIAM HEDLEY . I am a pawnbroker at Cow-Cross. On the 15th of November the prisoner Elizabeth Durham brought this piece of cotton to me (produced): she told me at what place she lived, but could not tell the people's names. On my being so particular she abused me; I then refused to take them. She came back with Mr. Bulbridge, who said he sent her with it, and that she was his wife's sister, and it was his property.
Did you know Bulbridge before? - No; but I have had things pledged in his name.
Prosecutor was again called, and asked, If the cotton was his? - He said it was: that it was very remarkable, and he had seen it very often, and should know it amongst twenty pieces: that he lost it on Monday the 13th of November, and found it the Friday following. The pawnbroker's wife asked me how I knew it? I told her by what marks, and that there were sixteen yards in the piece.
JANE HACKLEY . On Monday the 13th November the prisoners took a room of me, at No 5, Saffron-hill, under pretence of coming there to live. They said they kept the market: they brought those rabbit skins into the room.
How do you know that those are the skins? - The constable took them out of the room: I never saw the prisoners before they took the room of me, but am sure they are the same persons.
I buy and sell rabbits and rabbit skins . On the 13th of last month I was coming down Holborn, when I met a woman with three rabbit skins, which I bought. I afterwards
For the Prisoners.
VIRTUE WEEKS. I have known both the prisoners for about seven months. I know nothing but honestly of them, and that they are hard working people.
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
JOHN WILLIAMS (a black). I am servant to Mr. Waller in Soho-square: about a month ago he sent me into the city with a letter, between eleven and twelve at night; and, it being late when I returned, was afraid I should not get in: one of the prisoners, Rebecca Wilson , picked me up in the Strand; I went with her to a public house: she wanted me to go home with her, saying she had very good lodgings: we took coach, and I went with her to Lead-court ; we found two girls in the room. The girl went to bed with me, and I laid there that night: before I went to bed, she asked where my watch was: next morning I found the girl, and my watch, a pair of plated buckles, a handkerchief, and flannel waistcoat, all gone, and the door locked; I called out, and a man came and broke it open: I went out and asked the landlord's name at a pawnbroker's who lived next door; I then went to a justice and told what had happened; the watch was found at a pawnbroker's, where Rebecca Wilson had pawned it.
EDWARD PULLEN . On the 1st of November, early in the morning, I met Rebecca Wilson at the corner of Sydney's-alley, Princess-street, Leicester-Fields, - She desired me to pawn that watch for her: I asked if she came honestly by it, she said she did; accordingly I pledged it at Mr. Crofton's, in Silver-street, Golden-square, for half a guinea, which I gave her.
HENRY JONES . By virtue of a warrant I took up the two prisoners: Rebecca Wilson said she sent the last witness with the watch to a pawnbroker's. The boy had the duplicate, which he very readily gave me. I don't know the pawnbroker's name, but he lives in silver-street, Golden-square; he gave me the watch on producing the duplicate. (The watch produced.)
[ The prosecutor was again called, and desired to look at the watch, which he did, and said, it was the same that he had in his pocket when he went with the girl to her lodging; that he knew it by a piece of brass on the back, and was positive it was his.]
Henry Jones was again called, and asked the reason of his apprehending the prisoner Ann Lynch ? - He said, they being both in company, and very much in liquor, he did not know which of them was the person.
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Baron BURLAND.
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
GUILTY. Petty Larceny .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
GUILTY. Petty Larceny .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
DANIEL GOLDING . I keep a linen draper's shop , the sign of the Unicorn, in the Strand . On the 20th of November last, at half past five in the evening, I was standing at the shop door, and saw the prisoner, in company with another, picking pockets; at six the prisoner, with another person, came into my shop, stood a little way in, and held the door in his hand: the prisoner asked me if I knew one Thomson; and before I could answer him, the other person put his hand into the window, and laid hold on eleven silk handkerchiefs, and ran away with them. I then seized the prisoner, and pulled him into the shop, and then went out to the door, but perceived that the other was so far gone, it was in vain to attempt to overtake him: I came back to the shop, sent for a constable, and carried the prisoner directly before Sir John Fielding , where he was known very well, and said he was an old offender.
I was going down the Strand, and asked this gentleman where Mr. Thomson lived, he immediately called out that I had robbed him. I am a lapidary by trade.
GUILTY . T .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
ISAAC WHITELEAD . I live at the corner of Portland-street, Cavendish-square ; the prisoner lodged in my house: I lost two blankets, a counterpane, two sheets, two pillows and cases, a tea kettle, four cups and saucers; those I lent to her in her lodging. She was a single woman. I was apprehensive of the things being gone, so got a warrant and searched her lodgings, when all those things appeared to be missing. I went to one Finch, a pawnbroker in Berwick-street, Soho, found part of them there, the rest I found in John-street. She acknowledged before the justice that they were my property, and that she had pawned them herself. (The goods produced and sworn to by the prosecutor.)
My landlady knew the things were in pawn, but said she would never hurt me.
GUILTY. Petty Larceny .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Baron BURLAND.
THE Jurors for our lord the King upon their oath present, That David Roche , late of London, gentleman , not having the fear of God before his eyes, but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the Devil, on the 4th day of September, in the thirteenth year of the reign of our sovereign lord George the Third , by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, and so forth, with force and arms, at the Cape of Good Hope, on the coast of Africa, in parts beyond the seas without England, feloniously, wilfully, and of his malice aforethought, did make an assault upon John Fergusson , then and there being in the peace of God and our said lord the King; and that the said David Roche with a certain drawn sword, made of iron and steel, of the value of five shillings, which he the said David Roche in his right hand then and there had and held, then and there feloniously, wilfully, and of his malice aforethought, did strike, stab, and thurst the said John Fergusson in and upon the upper part of the breast of him the said John Fergusson , above the left pap of him the said John Fergusson ; and that the said David Roche , then and there feloniously, wilfully, and of his malice aforethought, did give to him the said John Fergusson , then and there with the drawn sword aforesaid, in and upon the said upper part of the breast of him the said John Fergusson , above the left pap of him the said John Fergusson , one mortal wound of the breadth of half an inch, and of the depth of five inches; of which said mortal wound the said John Fergusson then and there instantly died: and so the Jurors aforesaid, upon their oath aforesaid, do say, that the said David Roche , in manner and form aforesaid, then and there feloniously, wilfully, and of his malice aforethought, did kill and murder the said John Fergusson , against the peace of our lord the King, his crown and dignity .
To this Captain Roche put in the following plea:
And hereupon the said David Roche , in his proper person, faith, That the lord the present King ought not to impeach or trouble him the said David Roche ; because he saith, that heretofore, to wit, on the 6th day of September, in the thirteenth year of the reign of the said lord the present King, he the said David Roche was prosecuted at the said Cape of Good Hope, in parts beyond the seas, out of the dominions of our said lord the King, for unlawfully and feloniously murdering the said John Fergusson , in the supreme court of criminal jurisdiction there, before Oloff Martini Bergh , provincial fiscal there, to whom the cognizance of the said charge so as aforesaid then and there made against the said David Roche did then and there of right belong; and who had then and there full power and authority to condemn to death, and to cause to be put to death the said David Roche , if upon examination of witnesses, touching the aforesaid charge so as aforesaid then and there made against the said David Roche , he the said David Roche had then and there been convicted by the said Oloff Martini Bergh of unlawfully and feloniously murdering the said John Fergusson ; and that upon due examination of witnesses, touching the aforesaid charge so as aforesaid then and there made against the said David Roche , he the said David Roche was then and there in due manner, and according to laws in such cases used in the said Cape of Good Hope, acquitted of the said charge by the said Oloff Martini Bergh : and the said David Roche , farther faith, that the said David Roche , now here indicted and pleading, is the same David Roche so as aforesaid prosecuted at the Cape of Good Hope, in the said supreme court of criminal jurisdiction there, before the said Oloff Martini Bergh , for unlawfully and feloniously murdering the said John Fergusson , and by him the said Oloff Martini Bergh acquitted of the same charge, and not other nor different persons; and that the said John Fergusson , of whose death the said David Roche is now indicted, and the said John Fergusson , of whose death the said David Roche was in from aforesaid acquitted, were one and the same person, and not other nor different persons; and that the felony and murder,David Roche is now indicted, and the said felony and murder whereof the said David Roche was in form aforesaid acquitted, were the same felony and murder, and not other or different. All and singular which things the said David Roche is ready to verify, as the Court shall award; wherefore he doth not intend that the said lord the present King, by occasion of the premises, will or ought farther to impeach or trouble him the said David Roche , &c. And as to the felony and murder aforesaid, whereof the said David Roche is now indicted, he the said David Roche faith, that he is not guilty thereof; and of this for good and evil he puts himself upon the country, &c.
Upon this, the Court ordering the Jury to be sworn to try the issue contained in the plea, which was of autre fois acquit, Mr. Serjeant DAVY, for the prosecution, moved, That the Jury might be charged at once with this issue, and that of not guilty.
Mr. RECORDER said he could.
COURT. In pleas in abatement there are two issues, and they are always tried upon separate charges to the Jury. Besides, charging them with both issues at once would lead ot this absurdity, that being charged with both they would be obliged to find upon both; and yet, if the first finding was for the prisoner, they could not go to the second, that finding being a bar. They are distinct issues, and must be separate charges. The counsel for the prosecution was therefore ordered to put in a replication.
The trial was then adjourned over to the Monday following, when Mr. LUCAS, counsel for the prisoner, moved to withdraw his plea, which was done accordingly; and the trial came on upon the second issue of not guilty.
Examined by Mr. ELLIOT.
You were surgeon on board the Vansittart upon her voyage? - I was: we left England at the latter end of May 1773. The prisoner and the deceased were both passengers in the Vansittart.
Whether in the course of the voyage from England to the Cape of Good Hope, there was any difference between the passengers and the prisoner? - There was a dispute between Captain Fergusson and Captain Roche while we were at Madeira.
Was that the first dispute, or was there any former difference, in the course of that voyage, between the prisoner and the rest of the passengers? - I know of no particulars: I always understood the dispute to be between Captain Fergusson and the prisoner.
Where did the prisoner mess during the voyage? - Part of the time at the captain's table; but afterwards, by the general concurrence of the captain and the gentlemen passengers, the prisoner was dismissed from the captain's table: that was about a month after.
Do you remember any thing particular passing between the prisoner and the deceased before they arrived at the Cape? - They did not speak to one another from the time of leaving Madeira.
Did they avoid each other? - Captain Fergusson always avoided Captain Roche: I have seen Captain Roche make wry faces at Captain Fergusson as they were walking the quarter deck.
Do you remember any particular expressions between Captain Roche and Captain Fergusson? - Captain Fergusson has told me often, he would not have any connection with captain Roche: the quarrel at the Madeira's was between the prisoner and Captain Fergusson.
When did you land at the Cape? - We landed on the 4th of September 1773, and we left the Cape on the 3d of June.
Can you relate to the Court any thing that you remember, with respect to the charge against the prisoner, upon the 4th of September? - Upon the 4th of September, the same day we landed, we were sitting in the common hall
Mr. LUCAS of Counsel for the Prisoner. I submit to the Court, that no message ought to be given an account of that was delivered in the absence of Captain Roche?
Was Captain Roche present? - He was not.
Court. Then the message will not affect him.
There were sitting in the room Mr. Grant, Mr. Grant's mother and sister, Captain Fergusson, Captain Fergusson's brother, Mr. Dun, Mr. Brodie, Mr. Charron, and myself; it was rather later than six, when a message came in, that one Captain Matthews wanted to speak with Captain Fergusson.
Who delivered the message? - I believe Mr. Charron: the message was repeated twice, upon which Captain Fergusson went out of the room: I had not the smallest idea of what afterwards happened, and therefore paid little attention to it; in a very few minutes after that, Mr. Charron brought intelligence that somebody was fighting; upon which we all went out: when I had got a few yards from the door I met Captain Roche turning the corner of the street, sheathing his sword.
How far was that from the house you came out of? - Not above three or four yards, I believe: I walked past him, and turned the corner of the wall, and went up to Captain Fergusson, whom I found supported by Mr. Grant; he was then about fourteen or fifteen yards from Mr. Charron's house. I found him entirely speechless, lying upon the ground, Grant had hold of him; his pulse was sunk; and he had, in short, every symptom of a dying man: I helped to carry him to Mr. Charron's house, where he died in a few minutes.
Did you examine the body? - The next day: I don't think I shall be able to remember all the wounds; but the wound that was the cause of his death penetrated above the left pap, passing over the third rib in an oblique direction.
Explain what you wean by an oblique direction? - Passing from the left to the right, rather inclining downwards; the sword had stuck against the third rib, which had made it slant a little, and passed through the intercostal muscles and the pleura.
What is the pleura? - A thin membrane like a web, that lines the cavity of the breast; it penetrated the perecardium, and then wounded the aorta (which is a large artery that comes immediately from the heart) about half an inch from the left ventricle; which was the immediate cause of his death: there were several other wounds, all upon the left side, excepting one wound that extended from his forehead towards the crown of his head, which seemed as if struck with the sword.
Do you remember any wounds except upon the left side? - None except that upon the forehead.
Now describe the place in which you found Captain Fergusson lying? - It was about fifteen yards from Charron's house, behind a dead wall, round the corner.
Which way must Captain Fergusson have turned? - Coming from Charron's house he must have turned to the left.
Did you see Captain Roche after the commission of this fact? - No; not after I met him turning the corner, sheathing his sword.
How long did you stay at the Cape? - Till the 17th of the same month.
Did you make any enquiry respecting Captain Roche? - I went with several of the gentlemen to the governor's house on the evening of Captain Fergusson's burial, which happened upon the 5th: we went to desire the governor would cause all diligent search to be made after Captain Roche.
But you never saw Captain Roche after that day to the 17th? - No.
Were any application made, to your knowledge, to the fiscal for the apprehension of Captain Roche? - Yes; and there was a reward offered for apprehending him, but I was not present at any applications made to the fiscal.
What position must the body have been in to have received those wounds you have described? - I cannot possibly say; the wounds were upon the left side.
But could wounds have been given in the parts you have mentioned, and the sword have had that direction which you have described, if Captain Fergusson had been in a state either of offence or defence? - I cannot say.
Court. Was Captain Fergusson left-handed? - No, he was not.
Whether Captain Roche had applied to Captain Fergusson to make up the difference between them? - If any applications were made, they were made to the military: I was only surgeon of the ship; I never heard any thing but a report.
But did Captain Roche make any application to you to accommodate the difference? - Captain Roche spoke to me after we left the Madeira's, and I spoke to Captain Fergusson; and Captain Fergusson said he did not know of any dispute subsisting between him and Captain Roche.
What was Captain Roche's application? - I don't remember the particulars; only he wanted to know what was the reason that Captain Fergusson did not speak to him: I know of no other cause. Captain Fergusson told me he had settled every dispute with Captain Roche at Madeira; that he would have no further connection with him, and there was no fort of quarrel subsisting between them.
Court. Was Captain Fergusson's sword drawn? - His sword was lying by his side; and it appeared to be twisted at the side, and a bit of it broke off about an inch or two.
Had Captain Roche any wound? - I cannot say; I only saw him as he passed.
Were there any appearances of blood upon Captain Fergusson's sword? - I don't think there were.
Mr. Serjeant DAVY. What was the disstance of time between Captain Fergusson's being called out by the message, as from Captain Matthews, and when you saw him lying under the wall? - I fancy not more than five minutes; it was exceedingly short indeed.
Had Captain Fergusson any cane? - I did not see any.
Was Captain Fergusson dim-sighted as well as short-sighted? - He was dim-sighted: he had a particular defect in one of his eyes, and the other eye was short-sighted; there was a defect that lessened the sight.
Which was the eye that had the defect? - I cannot remember.
Did Captain Roche know that Captain Fergusson was dim-sighted? - I never heard that from Captain Roche.
But must not every man have seen it on board the ship? - It was perfectly visible to every body.
Was it dark or light when he went out? - Candles were lighted: I fancy it is dark there between five and six o'clock.
At what distance was Captain Roche from you when you first perceived him? - He was not two yards from me, I believe.
At what distance did you see Captain Fergusson? - About the same distance: Mr. Grant had just lifted Captain Fergusson up by the shoulders when I came up.
Was it quite dark, or was it twilight? - It was past twilight.
I believe you know, that at the line, or near it, it grows dark sooner than it does here? - It does.
Was it light enough for a man, who had no defect in his eyes, to see a sword's length? - I don't think it was; because it was exceeding dark indeed.
Jury. When you first saw Captain Roche, did he appear in a hurry, as if making his escape? - He was walking fast, and was putting his sword in the scabbard.
Do you know what hour Captain Roche came on shore? - Only from hearsay; when I came on shore, which was at two o'clock, I left him on board.
Mr. LUCAS. How long was it after you left the house before you saw Captain Roche? - He passed by the door almost directly.
Consider you came out of a room lighted with candles? - Yes.
Have you never made the observation, that when a man comes out of a lighted room into the street, it appears much darker to him than it does to one that has been some time in the open air? - I am sensible of that; but it was some time before I entered the house again, and that convinced me of the darkness.
How long was you out of the house in all? - I suppose not more than five minutes.
- MOODY sworn. Examined by Mr. MACDONALD.
You were the surgeon's mate, I believe, in this voyage in the Vansittart? - I was.
Captain Fergusson and Captain Roche were two of the several passengers, I believe, on
How long were you between the Madeira's and the Cape? - I cannot be positive as to the time.
Now after your departure from the island of Madeira, in your passage to the Cape, did you hear Captain Roche speak about any disputes or quarrels that had happened between him and Captain Fergusson? - Yes; I heard him mention the disputes, at different times, between him and the passengers of the Vansittart: I have heard him say there were disputes between him and Captain Fergusson; but he did not mention the nature of them.
That there were, or that there had been? - That there were still subsisting between him and Captain Fergusson.
Did he say any thing of what he would do or intended to do upon it? - He said nothing in particular till the night we arrived at the Cape of Good Hope: I had heard him say several times before our arrival at the Cape, that he should with to shorten the race of the Fergussons.
How many times have you heard him make use of that expression? - I cann ot be positive to the different times.
How lately before your arrival at the Cape was it that you heard him say he wished to shorten the race of the Fergussons? - I cannot be positive how long it was before we arrived at the Cape; but I have heard him, at different times, make use of that expression.
I would with to know of you, whether upon the quarter deck you observed any thing particular in Captain Roche's behaviour? - I never observed any thing in particular; I have heard other people speak of it.
As you have heard him say several times that he wished to shorten the race of the Fergussons, did he give any reason why he wished that? - He said he believed Captain Fergusson to be the cause of the disputes between the passengers and him.
Then there were disputes between the other passengers and him? - There were.
And was that the reason he gave why he wished to shorten the race of the Fergussons? - Yes, that was the reason he assigned to me.
Did you hear him before they landed at the Cape say any thing more? - I never heard any thing particular till the night we arrived at the Cape: Captain Roche sent a message to me after I was gone to bed, between eleven and twelve o'clock at night, that he desired to speak with me directly, as Mrs. Roche, his wife, was indisposed in his cabin; I dressed myself and went up to Captain Roche's cabin; he desired me to walk in and drink a glass or two of wine with him, and said he had something particular to communicate to me: I told him I came to enquire for Mrs. Roche, as I understood she was indisposed; he said he had something particular to say that would not detain me, so I went in: he began recounting a great many of the particulars of the quarrels that were between him and the passengers on board, and particularly Captain Fergusson, whom he said he believed to be the principal instigator of the disturbances that subsisted between them. He afterwards asked me if I had heard whether Captain Fergusson would accept of a challenge in case he should send him one? I told him I was entirely ignorant as to the dispute that was subsisting between him and the passengers; that I had heard nothing whether he would or would not. He told me then that the next day he should go on shore, having agreed for a lodging for himself and his wife, and he was determined to call upon Captain Fergusson and chastise him, as he expressed it. He asked me at the same time, as he did before, whether or not I had heard that he would accept of a challenge? I told him I was entirely ignorant. He said he did not believe that Captain Fergusson was a coward: that he would accept of a challenge if it was given him; but he said, if he did not by G - d he would run him through the body. This was, I think, on the third of September.
This was the night before your landing? - It was the night we arrived at the Cape: they went on shore the next morning.
Was this before any body was gone on shore? Yes, I believe it was. Captain Fergusson was killed the next night. After Captain Roche had told me this he went out of the cabin
Counsel. I know what you are coming to; it is not proper to mention what Mrs. Roche said. - Captain Roche told me at the same time that he was going to borrow a sword from Mr. Edgeworth, one of the passengers.
Mr. Edgeworth is a military gentleman, is he not? - Yes.
What did he say that sword was for? - He said he got that sword with an intention to chastise Captain Fergusson. I saw Mr. Edgeworth give him a sword next morning.
Did any conversation pass at that time between Captain Roche and any one? - Not that I know of.
I believe you was on board the ship when Captain Fergusson was killed? - I was.
What time did Captain Roche go on shore? - Between three and four in the afternoon, I believe.
What time did Captain Fergusson go on shore? - I think about ten o'clock in the forenoon.
When did you go on shore? - I did not go on shore till three, four, or five days afterwards.
You never saw Captain Roche afterwards? - Never, till I saw him in England.
Cross Examination by Mr. HOWARTH.
You, I understand, was surgeon on board this ship? - Yes.
Who recommended you to that employ; you know Mr. Cairncross? - I was taken out by Mr. Cairncross.
Cairncross was the friend and countryman of Captain Fergusson I understand? - I don't know whether he was.
Were they strangers to one another, or pretty intimate? - I was never with them: I messed differently; I was in a different company on board the ship.
Did you ever see them speak to one another? - It was very seldom that I had an opportunity of seeing them.
Do you believe they were acquainted or not? - Mr. Cairncross must be acquainted with every one on board the ship.
Were Cairncross and Fergusson both countrymen? - I believe so.
Are you a countryman to Cairncross and Fergusson? - Yes, I am a Scotchman.
And their countryman? - I never heard any thing to the contrary.
Now, were Captain Roche and you pretty intimate? - There never was any particular intimacy.
Then you were pitched upon, not being the intimate friend of Captain Roche, to be sent for at this late hour of the night into his cabin, and there passed this long story you have told us: did you mention it to Cairncross your countryman? - I did not at that time.
But did you not mention it to him the next morning? - I did not; Cairncross went on shore early next morning.
Did you mention it to Captain Fergusson? - No; I never spoke three words to Captain Fergusson:
Did you mention it to any body? - Not at that time.
How long after did you mention it? - I mentioned it to several people on board the ship after we failed from the Cape.
Did you before Captain Fergusson's death mention it to any body? - They were all gone ashore next morning.
What time did they go on shore? - In the forenoon, between ten and eleven, I believe.
Had you no opportunity to tell it to Captain Fergusson before he went on shore, or to mention this to Captain Young or any body? - I might have had an opportunity, but I did not think it necessary; there were so many disputes subsisting between him and the passengers that I did not chuse to do that, as I thought it might be productive of bad consequences.
You heard a gentleman talk of going next day to chastise Captain Fergusson, saw him borrow a sword for the purpose, and heard him say he would chastise him when he went on shore, and yet you never mentioned this? - More of the men saw him borrow the sword.
Why did you not mention it to Cairncross or Captain Young, or some of the officers? - I had no opportunity; and I could not think it would be productive of any good if I had done it.
Why did not you go even that night and desire Captain Roche might be put under an arrest?
- I did not chuse to meddle with any of the disputes between them.
Have you ever heard Captain Fergusson say any thing about Captain Roche? - I never heard him say a word about him.
Did you never hear him talk of any memorial he intended to present against him? -
Did you see Captain Fergusson go on shore? - No.
Mr. Serjeant DAVY. I believe Mr. Cairncross was a total stranger to Captain Fergusson till he went on board the ship? - No.
Court. The prisoner Roche is a land officer in the East-India Company's service? - Yes, I heard he bore a captain's commission.
What was Fergusson? - I heard he had the same commission of a captain.
Who was the commanding officer of the land forces on board the ship? - Colonel Kay.
I suppose there were soldiers on board? - Yes, there were.
Then the senior officer I suppose had the command of the officers and soldiers that were on board? - I don't know how that was.
I suppose you had heard orders given on board to the men? - Yes.
From the senior officer to the junior officer, and the junior officer to the men, I suppose? - Yes.
Colonel Kay was on board at this time? - He was.
How came you not to acquaint Colonel Kay, or any other commanding officer, of these threats? - I never thought of acquainting Colonel Kay of it.
Then you thought no harm would happen? - As it was well known so many disputes had subsisted during the voyage, I thought it unnecessary; if he had done it before there was any disputes, I should have thought it my duty.
What did you understand when he said he would chastise him? - I understood, if he did not fight him he would run him through the body, as he told me.
Did not you think the danger the man was in worth communicating to the commanding officer? - Yes; but as there had been disputes, I thought they were sufficiently prepared against any danger of that kind.
How came you not to inform Captain Fergusson of it, that he might be prepared? or it might have been better to have informed the commanding officer that he might prevent it? - It was a neglect to be sure; but I did not think it at all necessary for me to do it; I thought it was the necessary consequence of malice he bore to Captain Fergusson.
Counsel for the Prisoner. Was any deposition taken from you at the Cape? - No, none at all.
One of the Jury. Why, after the death of Captain Fergusson, did you not immediately go on shore and make a full discovery after what you knew had happened to Captain Fergusson? - I was obliged to be on board the ship, the surgeon was then gone ashore.
Was you ashore at all? - Yes.
How long did you stay on shore? - Two or three days.
How came you not to make an information of what you had heard? - I was never called upon.
One of the Jury. After having heard Captain Roche declare the preceding night that he was determined to chastise Captain Fergusson, and for that purpose borrowed a sword of another officer, because he thought his own not good enough, why did not you, when you heard of Captain Fergusson's death, go on shore and make an information before some magistrate of what you had heard, or why did you not do it when you was on shore? - I had mentioned the circumstance to people on board; when I was ashore I never was called upon.
Court. Was you the only person that heard him say this in the cabin? - I was.
How should it be known that you could give any information at all, if you did not mention it?
Mr. Serjeant DAVY. You can tell us whether there were not other interrogatories put to the witnesses at the Cape? - I don't know any thing of that.
Whether it was publickly known on board the ship that Captain Roche had made use of threatening expressions? - I heard it was publicly known all over the ship that he had long before that made use of threatening expressions.
I think you was the commander of the
Mr. MACDONALD. Please to tell any thing you know relative to Captain Roche and Captain Fergusson? - I received Captain Roche, by order of the Company, in the latter end of April 1773: I was to carry him to Bombay: we sailed a few days afterwards. There were many disputes before we arrived at Madeira between Captain Roche and the passengers, which I understood when we came to Madeira to be fully settled. After we had left Madeira some little time, I really cannot say how long, Captain Roche desired I would carry a letter to Captain Fergusson, containing a concession for some offence, and begging pardon for what had passed. Captain Fergusson said he had so often offended, and so often asked pardon, that he was determined to make a memorial to the governor and council at Bombay. Captain Fergusson said he could not, nor would he accept his concessions, unless Captain Roche would sign some paper which was drawn up. It was sent to Captain Roche: he did not sign it; what his reasons were for not signing it I cannot say, and no concession was accepted. The day before we got into the Cape, Captain Roche came to me upon the quarter-deck, and told me he had been addressing himself to Captain Fergusson to know whether he meant to give him satisfaction on shore as a gentleman or not, and that Captain Fergusson would make him no reply, but that he was determined to make him speak to him on shore. The next day about eight in the evening we came to an anchor at the Cape of Good Hope : the wind blew strong, so that we did not dispatch a boat on shore; but Captain Fergusson asked me when a boat came, if I had any objection to his going on shore in that boat. He went on shore about ten or eleven o'clock with my third officer. About noon the wind rather moderated, and I chose to go on shore myself. Captain Roche applied to me for an order that he might have a boat whenever he chose to go on shore; I ordered my first officer to let him have a boat whenever he wanted it. About four o'clock I went down to the water-side to see if I had ever a boat on shore, and I saw my own boat coming on shore with Captain Roche and Mrs. Roche. Upon their landing I went on board in the boat, and Captain Roche and Mrs. Roche walked up the wharf towards the town with my purser, I went on shore again at near seven: just as I was entering the door of the house I lodged at, two of the passengers, Mr. Pemberton and Mr. Brodie, who are writers in the Company's service, came in great confusion and told me Captain Roche had assassinated Captain Fergusson in the street: I was a good deal struck, and made some enquiry, but they told me Captain Fergusson was then expiring.
Were you present at any time when any applications were made to the governor? - I went that very evening to the governor, and told him one of my passengers had killed another in the streets of his town; he said he was sorry for it, but he would order diligent search to be made to bring the parties to account for what they had done.
How long did you stay at the Cape? - From the 3d at night till the 17th in the morning.
Did you at any other time during that period make the same applications to the governor or fiscal? - Yes; Colonel Kay and some more of the passengers told me they should be glad to accompany me to the fiscal, to desire that Captain Roche might be apprehended, if possible, and brought to justice for killing Captain Fergusson. Upon the evening Captain Fergusson was buried, which was a few days after his death, we went to the governor, and told him that we imagined that diligent search had not been made, or else in so small a town Captain Roche must have been apprehended and brought to justice. The fiscal assured us that it had, and that very diligent search should be made.
Did you make the same applications at any considerable distance of time after that? - I believe not many days before I left the Cape; I believe four or five days: I made a morning visit to the governor, as I did frequently, and in conversation I told him I thought it very extraordinary; the governor said, we cannot hear any thing of Captain Roche: I said, I think it odd in your small place: the governor assured me, that if he apprehended him he would keep him till an English man of war came in, and send him over.
Did you hear of any reward being offered? - I was told by the passengers that Mr. Fergusson his brother had offered a reward.
Did you, in company with any one else, make any enquiry at the house of one Vanderpool,
When you carried this letter from Captain Roche to Captain Fergusson, did Captain Fergusson make any observations what Captain Roche's behaviour ought to be? - Not as I recollect.
Did Captain Fergusson say whether he would or not fight him? - He said he was tired of Captain Roche's behaviour, he had offended so often, and asked pardon so often, that he would accept of no concessions from him, but he would make a memorial to the Governor and Council at Bombay.
Cross Examination by Mr. DAVENPORT.
If I understand you right, Captain Roche made repeated concessions to Captain Fergusson, who as often resisted them? - On board the ship there was no offer of concession.
From the conduct of both whether you understood that Captain Roche was ready to make all proper concession, and that Captain Fergusson would not accept of any? - I did not attend to any particular conversations upon it, nor did I know they had quarrelled, until Captain Roche informed me so.
Then there were concessions as large, and as often repeated as the affronts were given, to your knowledge. - Not to my knowledge; I never heard of any.
As far as you know? - As far as I know.
Do you know of any fresh quarrels after Captain Roche offered to make concessions between him and Captain Fergusson? - I don't.
I will ask you how Captain Fergusson went armed when he went on shore? - I cannot say.
Did you see him with a cane? - I don't recollect seeing him with a cane, or having any thing else in his hand; I did not observe.
He went on shore four or five hours before Captain Roche? - Yes.
Do you know from the governor or fiscal that Captain Roche had sent on shore to the governor or fiscal to desire that some steps might be taken to prevent any assault, or any thing happening between him and Captain Fergusson? - I never heard that.
How many boats went on shore after Captain Fergusson went, and before Captain Roche went? - That I cannot tell, whether four, five, or six; my chief officers could answer that best.
Court. How long was it after Captain Roche and his lady went on shore that you heard of the death of Captain Fergusson? - About four he went on shore, and it was near seven when I heard of it.
I believe you was a mate on board the Vansittart? - I was.
Have you heard Captain Fergusson say any thing, and what in relation to his conduct with Captain Roche?
Mr. LUCAS. What Captain Fergusson said is no evidence.
Mr. COX. What we mean to prove is, that Captain Fergusson declared before he went on shore that if Captain Roche should challenge him he would not fight him.
Court. I don't see the relivancy of that evidence, if it was given. To be sure, nothing that Captain Fergusson said in conversation before the time of the wound being given, when the prisoner was not present, can affect the prisoner.
Mr. Serjeant DAVY. I submit to your Lordship upon a question, whether the wound was given in consequence of a challenge or no, that it would be evidence; for the question would be, whether Captain Fergusson did or not to go out to fight this gentleman in a fair duel? Now we will shew that Captain Fergusson declared he would not fight him.
You have not heard any thing said by Captain Roche upon the subject at any time, have you? - I don't recollect I have.
Do you know of any applications made to the fiscal with regard to this affair? - Upon the evening that Captain Fergusson was buried I went with Captain Young, Colonel Kay, and several other gentlemen, passengers, and officers belonging to the ship, and waited upon the fiscal and governor.
Mr. LUCAS. I submit to your Lordship, that the conversation between the fiscal and governor is not evidence?
Court. As to the slight in such a country as that, where the judge never hears them, but hangs them up directly, right or wrong, the slight can be nothing: their manner of trial is surprizing; if the party is a low man, he is committed to prison, and they send and take examinations; if they are satisfied he is guilty, they give orders for him to be hanged: if he is a gentleman, they put officers over him, but they don't see him or hear him, and he is to wait till he knows whether the fiscal, who is an arbitrary judge, hangs him or not; that is what a gentleman swore who has been at the Cape.
Counsel for the Prisoner. If they want evidence, then they examine the party accused.
Mr. Serjeant DAVY. My Lord, we have gone through all our evidence, except the depositions taken at the Cape.
Court. They cannot be admitted here,
I am very happy that I have now an opportunity of justifying my conduct before a jury of Englishmen. The governor and the judge at the Cape, the most arbitary country in the world, were perfectly satisfied of the propriety of my conduct, and they discharged me: I have witnesses to make that demonstrable before your Lordship. I have also evidence to be produced to shew the manner in which I was treated by Captain Fergusson. As an officer I was compelled to support my honor, and I did not draw my sword till after I was knocked down. I received a violent cut upon my head, and had my arm dislocated. My Lord, I will now call my witnesses.
Court. Call any witnesses you think proper to the fact; we cannot suffer any witnesses to to be called as to what passed before the fiscal.
Prisoner. As to the matter of fact, my attorney has got a list of witnesses, which I beg he will call in.
For the Prisoner.
Was you at the Cape of Good Hope in September 1773? - Yes; I went out from England in the Britannia; I went afterwards into the Dolphin man of war.
How long have you been out of England? - About two years and a half: I went to the Cape in the Earl of Sandwich.
What time did you leave the Earl of Sandwich? - The second of September, at False Bay, about eighteen miles from the Cape: I left the ship on the second, and went to the Cape the same day: I staid there four or five days.
Did you observe any thing particular upon Saturday evening the 4th of September? - Yes; I was at a punch-house at the Cape, called the Naked Man. At about six o'clock in the evening I went through the Company's gardens, and I saw a tall man following a gentleman up who was dressed in red.
How was that tall man dressed? - In light blue: I saw him knock the short gentleman down that was dressed in red.
Who was that short gentleman that was dressed in red? - As far as I could hear afterwards it was a captain belonging to the Company's service; it is that gentleman (pointing to Captain Roche). I saw him knock him down with a cane or stick, I cannot say which.
What was the short gentleman doing there? - Walking along, and the tall man following him; the tall man came up with a pretty good step and knocked him down: I heard the short gentleman hollow out,
"Don't use me so, but
"let me have satisfaction.
"The tall gentleman drew his sword directly.
Did you see whether there was one blow or more with the cane? - I think two or three with the cane; he fought with his sword and cane.
What hand was his cane in when he fought with his sword and cane? - In his left hand, and his sword in his right.
How long did they fight? - Two or three seconds, or so.
Had the short gentleman drawn his sword, or spoke to him before he received the blow with the cane? - No; he was walking along and saying nothing.
Did you see the short gentleman's sword drawn? - Yes, after the tall gentleman had drawn his sword.
Who drew his sword first? - Captain Fergusson.
When the short gentleman said to him,
"Don't use me so, but let me have satisfaction," then the tall gentleman immediately drew his sword? - Yes, and the short gentleman got up.
But did not draw his sword after he was knocked down till the tall gentleman, Captain Fergusson, drew his sword? - No.
How long had you seen the prisoner before Captain Fergusson came up to him to knock him down? - Not a minute.
Had you seen him a quarter of a minute? - Yes; he was walking, and a black boy with him.
Then perhaps you saw him before he turned the corner? - I cannot say I did.
How near to the corner was it that he was knocked down? - About ten yards.
But he had passed the corner before you saw him? - Yes.
How many yards? - About three yards.
Then you suppose him to have walked seven yards after you saw him before the tall gentleman came up? - Yes.
And then the tall gentleman came behind him softly and knocked him down? - He walked up a good pace.
Without making a noise? - He made no noise, he never spoke.
And knocked him down without speaking one word? - He did not say a word, that I am sure of.
The other fell to the ground immediately? - Yes.
Quite flat upon the ground? - Yes, quite at length.
How long did Captain Roche lie upon the ground before he got up again? - Not long: as soon as he was down he cried out, and desired the other gentleman to give him satisfaction, and not take his life away.
Did the other strike him after he was down? - No.
The first blow knocked him down? - He hit him two or three times before he fell.
Then the first blow did not knock him down? - No.
Did he turn about after he had received the first blow? - No.
He tried to run away? - No, he kept going on till he tumbled.
After he had received the first blow he did not turn back to see who struck him? - No.
He received a second or third blow before he turned round, and still kept walking on till the third blow brought him to the ground? - Yes.
And all that time he did not lock back, nor turned his head, nor said one word? - No.
So when he was down upon the ground then he desired to have satisfaction? - Yes.
Was that before he got up again? - As he was getting up.
And he did not draw his sword till after the tall gentleman drew his? - No.
And when he had drawn his sword, what happened? - They pushed at one another with their swords till I saw the tall gentleman fall.
The tall gentleman did not use his cane? - Yes, sending off with the cane.
But of course he was pushing with the sword all the while? - Yes.
Consequently he stood, I suppose, rather inclined to the right with his sword, and was only using the cane to fence off the other's sword; he kept the sword pointed towards the small gentleman, I suppose, - Yes.
So the other stood towards him too? - Yes.
They were all pushes; the short gentleman struck no blows upon the tall gentleman, but all was by way of pushing? - I saw him strike no blows.
So then all the wounds the small gentleman could be able to give must be with the point of the sword? - Whether it was pushing or striking I could not tell.
Perhaps you never saw so serious a transaction in your life between two gentleman; it was an interesting thing for you to take notice of: methinks you should be able to tell us whether it was pushing at one another, or striking as if they were cudgelling with their swords? - I cannot tell which way it was.
May be you was never asked the question before now? - No.
I believe so; then that makes no part of the
How long might they be set to one another before the tall one fell? - About three seconds.
It was light enough for you to see? - It was the dusk of the evening, neither light nor dark.
Do you think you was twelve yards from them? - Yes.
You could see the cane as well as the glittering sword it was so light? - Yes.
You could see them perfectly distinct and clearly? - Yes.
You could have seen them if you had been twenty yards off, I suppose? - I don't know whether I could or not.
Then it was not quite dark? - No.
Only a little duskish? - Yes, only a little duskish.
Did any words pass except what you have mentioned,
"Don't use me so, let me have
"were there no names called, or was there not a word after that? - No, not as I heard; I went away as soon as the tall gentleman fell.
Was any body so near to them besides yourself? - There was one gentleman close by them.
Can you tell that gentleman's name? - No.
Suppose I help you to the name: did you ever hear it? - Yes.
Is it Mr. Grant? - I cannot rightly say.
How came you not to stay? - Because I had other business to do.
It was no affair of yours? - No.
A couple of gentlemen murdering one another was no affair of yours? - No.
You never saw such an affair before, I dare say? - No.
Where were you going? - To see whether I could get a vessel.
You was not in employ at that time? - No.
Where did you lie that night? - At the punch-house, the Naked Man.
But as it was no affair of yours you did not say a word about it that night to any body? - I did not trouble myself about it afterwards.
You was right; what is a little blood to you: you did not mention it at the punch-house, did you? - No, I did not.
And when other folks talked of it you did not say you had seen it? - No.
You say you left the Sandwich upon the 2d? - Yes.
That was two days before you saw what passed between these two gentlemen? - Yes.
The day you left her was Thursday the 2d; this happened on Saturday the 4th? - Yes.
How near is False Bay to Table Bay? - About sixteen or eighteen miles.
When did the Sandwich come to Table Bay? - The very day I left her.
When did you leave the Cape? - The Tuesday afterwards.
In what ship? - I came back to my own ship.
When did you run away from the Sandwich quite? - I never left her; I came home in her.
Who was the commander of the Sandwich? - Captain Neal.
When did you leave the Sandwich to go from her quite? - I left her twice in all.
When was the first time? - The 2d of September.
When was the second time? - The day after I came back was the 7th or 8th; I went again on board of her, and came home in her.
Mr. LUCAS. How came you on board the ship again after you left her? - The first time I came of my own accord.
The second time how came you on board? - I was apprehended and brought back.
Mr. Serjeant DAVY. Did the little black boy stay to see them fight? - No; he ran away.
When? - After Captain Roche was knocked down.
Before he got up again? - Yes.
After the tall gentleman fell, what did the short gentleman do? - He went away and left him, and I saw no more of it.
Did you leave them the moment he fell? - Yes.
And you left the short gentleman there? - Yes.
He was not making off when you left them? - No, he was not.
How long had the Sandwich been at anchor before you left her? - I left her as she was dropping her anchor.
GUSTAVUS M'GUSTY sworn. Examined by Mr. HOWARTH.
You were on board the Sandwich East India-man? - Yes.
Do you know the last witness, Goodwin? - Yes; he was a foremast-man on board that ship.
Do you remember that ship coming to an anchor in False Bay? - Yes.
About what time was that? - To the best of my memory, the 1st or 2d of September.
I believe you kept the purser's accounts? - No; I wrote the chief and the second mate's journals there: I kept Captain Neal's accounts after that.
Did Goodwin leave the ship at False Bay and go on shore? - Yes; they came to an anchor in the evening: when the boat went on shore for provisions, I believe he went in it, and did not return: he came back to the ship on Monday evening the 6th, I believe; he had been absent Saturday, Sunday, and Monday evening: he asked me to request Mr. Tilly to forgive him, and he would come on board again; and he came accordingly.
Mr. Serjeant DAVY to GOODWIN. When did you come to England? - I came home directly from the Cape in the Sandwich, at about six weeks after last Christmas was twelve month: I have been two voyages since that; I went first in the Barbary Brig, a merchant ship, to the coast of Guinea.
How long was you in England before you went out again? - About six weeks.
During that six weeks did you hear any talk about this affair? - No.
How long was it before you returned to England from Guinea? - Seven or eight months: I returned from the coast of Guinea pretty near twelve months ago; I staid here five weeks, and then I went to the Bay of Honduras in the Friendship, a merchant ship.
During these five weeks had you not heard any thing of the murder at the Cape of Good Hope? - Not in England: I staid eight months at the Bay of Honduras, and returned from thence about five weeks ago.
When you returned to England five weeks ago, where did you go? - To my lodgings in East-Smithfield.
There you have lodged ever since? - Yes.
When did you first mention the particulars you have told to day? - As soon as I heard of the prisoner at the bar being confined for it, which was about three weeks ago, I came up to him.
Who did you hear it from? - I heard a gentleman that sat in the house read it in the news paper.
Who was that gentleman? - I cannot say.
Was any body present when the gentleman read the paper to you? - Not that I know of.
You did not speak to that gentleman or any body else about it? - No.
Was you at Newgate more than once? - No.
Can you tell what day you saw Captain Roche in Newgate? - No.
Is it within three weeks ago or more? - I cannot say.
That is the first time that ever you mentioned to any body what you had seen? - Yes.
And then you went of your own accord to see him? - Yes.
What part of Newgate was he in? - In a room at the top of Newgate.
NOT GUILTY .
34, 35, 36. RICHARD BAKER , JOHN RADCLIFFE , and ELIZABETH WHITE , were indicted for feloniously and traitorously forging, counterfeiting, and coining one piece of false, feigned, and counterfeit money and coin to the likeness and similitude of the current money and silver coin of this realm called a half-crown, against the duty of their allegiance, and against the statute , &c.
2d Count. The same as the first, only for counterfeiting a shilling.
3d Count. The same as the first, only for counterfeiting a sixpence, October 14th .
Upon the 15th of October I had an information of some coiners in Skinner-street , at the house of one Elizabeth White : I went there in company with Gossett, Lewin, and Manwaring, between the hours of two and four in the afternoon; Gossett went into the lower room first, Lewin followed him, and I followed Lewin into the passage. Mrs. White the prisoner came out of her apartment, on the bottom floor; she caught hold of me by the coat and said, who do you want up stairs? you shall not go up, which gave me suspicion there was somebody up stairs that did not wish to be seen; they had gone up stairs before she took hold of me I got from her, and went up to the garret; the door was fast; I forced the door open, and we went in: either Gossett or Lewin called me up, and said now they are getting out of the window. I ran up directly. Baker and Radcliffe had got out of the window, and Gossett was out and had hold of Radcliffe: he said the others could go no farther. Baker said, use me well, I will surrender myself. Then Gossett pulled Radcliffe in at the window again, and Baker came into the garret. Baker turned round immediately to his sand through; he made a sort of a stand at the flask which had sand in it, and there were shillings, half-crowns, and six-pences lying upon the sand: in the flasks are put the sand, and upon the sand is put the money to make the impression. He swept part of the sand off: I stopped him from so doing, and we handcuffed them. Then they begged to put on their cloaths; for when we first saw them, one was in his shirt sleeves, and the other in a flannel waistcoat and trowsers. The money we found upon the flasks was good money; they put that upon the sand in the flasks to make the impression. Then I went to the vice-bench, and there I found a quantity of counterfeit shillings filed, and some unfiled. They are cast rough, and they afterwards file them smooth, and polish and silver them.
What quantity did you find? - I did not count the base metal; there were a great number of them: the good ones amount to between 3 and 4 l. There was in the same garret a furnace: I took this crucible (producing
What are you, Ryder? - I have attended justice Wilmot's office two or three months.
And have on no other employment but that of catching and convicting people? -
And I suppose you expect when they are convicted to have a little bit of the reward? -
I suppose I shall have no more than what the law allows me.
What do you expect upon the conviction, should it so happen, of these three prisoners? - I came to speak the truth, I don't come to talk about rewards.
You expect to have the reward, don't you? - I came to give my evidence.
Do you expect to have the reward? - If there is any allowed, without doubt.
But what that sum is you don't know? - I don't know what will be allowed to me.
What is to be allowed for each? - Forty pounds.
And you expect to have your share? - Without doubt.
Which went up first into this house? - Gossett and Lewin.
The woman did not stop them? - The door was open, and they went up before I saw her.
Were these flasks set or not? - One was.
What else did you find in the room besides shillings? - Half-crowns and sixpences and these implements.
Was there nothing else there? - There was a vast quantity of rotten stone and sand, which is not produced here.
Were there any buckles? - There were three rims, one pair, and an odd one.
These might, I suppose, as well be cast in these flasks as any thing else? - I am not of that branch.
I suppose these are common files? - Yes.
I suppose they are made use of by every smith in the kingdom? - I am not a smith.
You say you are not at all of the business, and yet you have ventured to swear that this money was ready for silvering? - They polish them up after they are rough cast before they silver them.
Was the flask set with them or not? - They lay upon the sand in the flask.
Was that flask set or not? you know what I mean by that term; was it set ready for melting? - No, because they must be taken out first.
Then the flask was not set? - They were all laid ready to make the impression.
Was all that handful you have produced laid upon the sand in the flask? - Yes, it was.
One of the Jury. Whether these three rims of buckles you speak of were silver or base metal? - They were base metal.
What day was you there to search? - On a Saturday; I believe, the 15th day of the month.
The 15th is not a Saturday? - It was however upon a Saturday.
I went along with Francis Ryder , Philip Gossett , and Thomas Manwaring , upon Saturday, either the 14th or 15th of October, to the house of one Mrs. White in Skinner's street, about two or three o'clock in the afternoon. The street-door stood open. Philip Gossett , Francis Ryder , and I went up stairs: Gossett was close to the door; Manwaring came up a short time after. The garret door was bolted: we looked through a crevice in the door, and saw the two men at the bar in the room. The door was broke open by Gossett, I believe. Baker was dressed in a flannel waistcoat and a pair of trowsers, and without his coat. Radcliffe was in his shirt tucked up to his armpits, and his collar open, without any wig or any thing upon his head. The moment they heard the door breaking open, Baker put his foot upon the trough, jumped out at the window into the gutter, and from thence he got upon the house. Radcliffe followed him, but being a more bulky man could not get out so fast as Baker did. They were brought in by Francis Ryder and Philip Gossett . As Baker came over the trough he pulled out a quantity of good money that were set in these iron things (the flask) which were in a large trough with a quantity of sand. I handcuffed them together. They begged for their cloaths: Francis Ryder desired I would go
What business are you? - I have worked in the foundery before now.
What business are you now? - I attend at justice Wilmot's office, and have for some years.
You are in the same office with the last witness? - Yes.
Did you find some unfinished buckles in the room? - I did not see any.
Was you of this party that went to this house? - Yes: Ryder, Lewen, and Manwaring were with me; I saw Baker and Radcliffe getting out at the window, I followed them: I took Radcliffe, and Ryder took Baker, and we brought them into the room: when Baker came in at the window, he put his hand into the trough, and threw the money and the sand about.
Was there a furnace there? - Yes; and this scouring paper, and files, and flasks, and vices, and things.
What is your employment? - I am a peace officer.
A sworn officer? - Yes, I am an headborough; Manwaring and I are sworn in as officers.
You are not sworn in for a particular district, but in general? - Yes; to serve a warrant or apprehend a thief.
Did you see any buckles there? - No.
I believe you know nothing of finding these instruments? - No.
Describe the use of the several things produced? - These flasks are made use of to cast, the sand is put into it: here is what they call a get, a leader that makes a channel in the sand, through which the metal runs to the impressions; here is a mixture of silver and metal, copper, I suppose, and some filings; here is scouring paper that is used in coining; and here are a great many crucibles: these three half crowns are counterfeits; in a good half crown you will find the letters upon the edge, on the counterfeit you will find none in general.
Are these counterfeits or not? (shewing the witness some of the shillings that were found in the trough) - I look upon these to be good ones, and I apprehend they were used for patterns.
You are very conversant with this sort of business: I understand that flask may be used for the purpose of casting any thing that may be enclosed in a flask? - Any small things.
Crucibles are used in melting metals? -
And files are used for many things? -
These files are not used, I believe, in buckle-making,
Nor no other business? - Other business they may; whoever has used these has filed counterfeit silver.
Court. I suppose there are none of these instruments now produced, but what may be used in some other business? - They may be used in small work of silver or gold, or any thing of that kind.
Do you look upon these half crowns to be completely counterfeit, or is there any thing remaining to be done upon them in order to pass them off? - No: when I saw them they were finished ready to utter, lying by turns them of that colour.
In the state they are at present, they don't appear to me to be likely to impose upon any
Were they of a better colour when you first saw them? - Yes; they would have passed then.
Q. to Ryder. What quantity of counterfeit half crowns were there? - I did not count them.
You have produced nothing now but what you found in the garret? - I have produced nothing but what I found in the garret; but I have not produced all I found in the garret.
He said I knocked something off the flask, I did not: I only put my hand upon the edge of the trough to clear myself from it.
These things were brought to me the day before by three men, from one Mr. Welbank: they told me Welbank sent his compliments to me, and begged I would melt down some things they had got there; that they had found them a week or a fortnight ago. I told them I was very busy and could not do any thing for them then; there was a bag full of pieces of money. I did not know neither of those three men, but I know Welbank very well; Welbank told me on the 3d of October, that he should be in town soon, and would bring them to me; but as he did not come to town, he gave these men a direction and they brought them to me. I said I was very busy cleaning some buckles, but if they would leave them with me, I would melt them down and sell them to a refiner for them: the next morning when I came to my shop, I swept my board down and sorted them out: I shaked them in some saw dust, they were very dirty and nasty; I looked them over and found some good amongst them; then I weighed them off in different parcels, as much as my scales would hold, and put a pot full into the skillet upon the fire, and as I was doing them these men came in: I had been three or four hours sorting the good from the bad: I did not know there was one good one among them when I turned them out of the bag; they were to call again upon the Saturday afternoon; me and my men were at work about them when they came in.
RADCLIFFE. I worked for Mr. Baker six months, and I never saw any thing of the sort in the shop, till these men brought these things.
FOR THE PRISONERS.
Do you know the prisoner Baker? - I have no acquaintance with him.
Do you know a Mr. Welbank? - Very well: I met him to the best of my remembrance about the latter end of September. I have known him some time, but I had not seen him a long time before; he was enquiring after my family, and I asked after his: he said we have not seen one another some time, we will have some drink; Mr. William Clark was with me and John Benfield : we met Mr. Welbank just at the end of Chiswel-street, we agreed to go to the Black Dog, in Shoreditch; going across Moorfields by the watch-house he kicked something before him with his toe; he said, bless me, here is something of some bulk, we will take it up and see what it is; Mr. Welbank stooped and picked it up: Benfield and Clarke both came up and said halves: we took it up; when we got to the Black Dog we had a pot of beer, and there we examined it: there were some half crowns, and there might be some shillings, and some other little pieces that I know not what the name was: I looked upon it to be good money; not being a judge, then we examined it. I said to Mr. Welbank, I think it will be very proper for us to keep this a while, to see whether it will be advertized, and if he had a mind I would take it home with me: I said tie the bag with a string, and then get a bit of wax and clap your own seal upon the knot: it was done; he said I shall be in town such a time, and if I am not, carry it to Baker, he is an honest man, and will give the worth of it: Welbank not
What day was it? - I think it was a Friday; I carried it about the 12th or 13th of October, as near as I can guess.
When was this first meeting with your friend Mr. Welbank? - I had not seen him before that day for I suppose a twelvemonth.
Where do you live? - Number 1, Lane's Court, Cold-Bath-Fields.
Have you been a long while acquainted with Mr. Welbank? - I have known him some years.
What are you? - I deal in pens and quills; I was going to Mansfield-street for some quills.
You was bail, I believe, some day last week, in the court of King's Bench? - I don't know whether I was or not; I might.
You know whether you was or not? - I was.
How long have you known Welbank? - Six or seven years.
What is he? - He goes about the country with hard wares; he is a Somersetshire man.
Has Welbank been much in town at the end of the year? - I cannot say, I met him promiscuously then.
Welbank hit something with his foot, that was about the end of September? - Yes.
When was it opened? - Directly.
What quantity of shillings and half crowns did you find? - A good many.
Were there ten? - More than that.
Were there seventy? - We did not count them.
Were there as many as ninety? - I cannot tell; I did not number them.
Have you seen Welbank at any time since he picked these up? - No; I have not.
How came you to stay so long before you carried them to Baker? - To see if they would be advertised.
You did not know Baker before? - I never saw him before, he was a stranger to me; I carried them there by Welbank's directions.
Do not you think it would have been better to have carried them to that old friend of yours the Solicitor of the Mint? - My old friend! I don't know him.
You have had some connections with him? - I am but a little judge of money; I tell you the pieces as near as I can, chapter and verse.
Look upon that, and tell me whether you think that money coined at the Tower? here are, you see, five pieces joined together as cast. - I look upon it to be bad; but I cannot say.
Are you of opinion that it is good money? - No; but there was some silver in it, but not all.
You looked at that before? - It was by candle light.
And did not you look at it from the time you picked it up till the time you carried it to Mr. Baker? - We looked at it the very night we picked it up; and then it was tied up with a piece of string, a bit of wax put upon it, and Welbank's seal sealed it; no body saw it as we sealed it up.
Do you know what is become of Welbank? - No.
Did not you attend here last sessions, when this trial was put off? - I was here, but not called in court.
Counsel. No; because there was an affidavit made that Welbank was a material witness, and he was out of the way.
Court. I thought you said, that when you looked at the things found in the bag, that you took it to be money? - We did look upon it to be money, and monies worth.
Court. But did you look upon it to be all current money? - Yes, we did by candle light.
But did you look upon these five or six pieces that were together to be current money? - We could not tell, what could we see by candle light.
Did not this six-pence in the middle of these half-crowns strike you a little? - I am not a judge; if I had, it might have struck me.
JOHN POOLE sworn.
I am a watch-maker: I have known Baker fourteen or fifteen years, but for the last six or seven years he and I have been very intimate; his family and mine have visited: I believe him to be a very honest sober man.
How does he get his living? - I always thought by buckle-making; I have often heard him say he sold buckles to shop-keepers in town, and have seen people I understood to be his work people.
Did you ever see him make buckles? - No; I have seen buckles, but I never saw him at work in my life.
I am a gold and silver wire-drawer; I have known Baker fourteen years, he is a buckle-maker ; I have known him deal in buckles, and always thought him a hard working man in that way of business.
I am a barber: I have known Baker five years; he is a buckle-maker, as I always understood.
Have you known him employed in that branch of business? - I never saw him work in my life; he was a man universally respected, and no man bore a better character.
Where do you live? - The corner of Bull-head, Court, Jewin-street.
Where has Baker lived all the time you have known him? - I don't know where he lived at the last place; but I knew him last in Lime's Buildings, Bunhill-row.
Did you ever know him to live in Mount-pleasant-row, in Holloway, near Highgate? - He might, and I not know it.
Have you ever been there with him? - Never.
You never heard any imputation upon his character? - Never.
You never heard any accusation of this fort? - Never.
I am a watch-maker: I have known Baker six years, he is a very honest man; I lived near him.
What is his business? - A buckle-cutter; I have seen patterns of buckles he has brought down to gentlemen to chuse; he bears a general good character.
I am a cabinet-maker by trade: I have known him about six years, I never saw any thing but justice and uprightness in him in all my days: I have bought buckles of him; I bought the buckles of him I have in my shoes.
You don't know of his having been in custody before? - No; nor that he was ever in trouble in my life.
I have known Baker six or seven years; I am a butcher, I served him with meat; he is a metal buckle-maker.
Do you know of his dealing in that branch of business at all? - He has a man that worked for him in the place now.
I have known Baker fourteen years; he is a buckle-maker: I have made many dozen of chapes for a gentleman he worked journeyman for once, and I have worked for him.
He got his livelihood by that branch of business? - Yes; and nothing else as I know of.
How long is it ago since you worked for him? - It may be near a twelvemonth; he employed another man afterwards instead of me; he did not like my chapes.
Did he ever keep a shop? - No; he worked as a chamber-master at home.
How long did you work with him? - I worked abroad for him, not with him; he hath sent me patterns.
When was the first? - He worked for a
I am a plaisterer: I have known Baker between five and six years; he has made me buckles several times; he has a very good character: I have seen rims of buckles as they have been cast, and I have seen them afterwards at his own house when finished.
Did he get his livelihood by that branch of business? - I never heard to the contrary.
Mr. BATEMAN SADDINGTON sworn.
I am an apothecary: I have known Baker three or four years; I always understood he was a buckle and button-maker: he always bore a very good character as an industrious sober man.
Has he a wife and family? - Yes.
I have known Baker eighteen years; he is a buckle-maker; I am a buckle-maker. I had some work in hand for him at the time this affair happened.
What work? - Three pair of pinchbeck buckles.
I am a buckle-cutter; I have known Baker twelve years: I have worked in the same shop with him; I never knew or heard any thing amiss of him.
I have known Baker about two years; he is an honest, just, faithful man, as far as ever I heard; he is a buckle-maker.
What sort of buckles did he make? - I don't know, I never saw any buckles of his making.
I have known Baker for five years; he has a very good character as far as ever I heard.
I am a taylor: I have known Baker five or six years; he has a very good character; he has a wife and three children.
ABIGAL ATKINS sworn.
I have known Radcliffe eighteen years; he was a gun-lock-maker ; he worked for my husband, who was a gun-lock-maker, about eleven years; he had a very honest character then.
Have you known him lately? - Yes.
I have known Radcliffe sixteen or seventeen years; he is a civil honest man for what I know of him.
I have known Radcliffe about eleven years; he was a gun-lock-maker: I never heard a bad character of him.
I have known Radcliffe six or seven years, he is a very honest, sober, industrious man: I am a watch-maker, I have sold him three or four watches at a time; he always paid me very honestly, and with good money.
BAKER GUILTY . Death .
RADCLIFFE GUILTY . Death .
WHITE NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Baron BURLAND.
37. JAMES BEAUMONT was indicted for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling house of Charles Willermine , Esq ; on the 4th of December, about the hour of two in the night, with intent the goods and chattels of the said Charles, in his dwelling house, feloniously to steal , against the statute.
EDWARD GODFREY . I am servant to Mr. Willermine, who lives in Hatton-street , I was alarmed on Monday the 4th of December , at about two in the morning, by the watchman crying out thieves. I went first to my master's room, afterwards I alarmed some others of the family: I then went down stairs and found the prisoner in the area, without side the house; the sash of the
JOHN SANDERS . I am one of the patrol. As I was patroling Hatton-street between eleven and twelve at night, of the 4th of this month, I saw somebody fastening the window of Mr. Willermine's house, I saw the hand of the person that fastened it. Going my rounds between one and two, or near two in the morning, I looked down the prosecutor's area, and observed the sash of the kitchen window pushed up; the inside shutter was open, and I saw a man's legs on the outside of the window, the rest of his body being within the house: I made an alarm with my rattle, and two or three watchmen came, who guarded the area till the prisoner was taken: when I gave the alarm with my rattle, the man whose legs I had seen on the outside of the window, sprung from the window like a dart, and concealed himself in the area under the steps of the house till he was taken: the prisoner is the man that was taken in the area, he had then boots on, and spurs in his pocket, but there were no implements for house-breaking found about him, nor any weapons.
GEORGE WILD . I am a watchman: I heard an alarm of thieves; when I came up Sanders told me there were thieves in the area, upon that we called up the people: we were let into the house by Godfrey; we went through the house into the area, and there took the prisoner under the steps that lead into the house: there were no implements for housebreaking or weapons found upon him.
GODFREY. There was nothing at all lost; the man was detected as he was getting into the house.
Sanders the patrol told the justice a different story at the time I was carried before him; for then he only said he saw the shadow of a man in the area; and did not say any thing of seeing the legs on the outside, or body of a man being below: Godfrey said before the justice that the bar was bent, and did not say any thing of the shutters being forced open. The reason of my being down the area was, I was going by at that time of the night, when some men came by and knocked my hat off into the area: I was a little in liquor; I went down into the area in order to recover my hat.
Q. to Godfrey. Did you give a different account before the justice, to what you have given now? - I believe the bar was forced open by the force of a push, it was forced out about seven inches, and lodged by a bit of moulding; and the window shutters were open about a foot; the bar being bent, the shutters were forced as far as the bar would admit of; but the bar was not above a foot and half high from the bottom of the window. I did not give any different account before the justice.
SANDERS. I did not give a different account before the justice. I not only saw the shadow of a man, but I saw the man himself.
Did you observe whether the legs you saw had boots on or not? - I did not.
FOR THE PRISONER.
I have known the prisoner four years: I keep the Crown and Feathers Tavern; a year and half ago he lived with me: I recommended him to the coffee-house upon London-bridge. I had a very good opinion of his honesty.
I keep the Red Cow, Cow-lane, Smithfield. I have known the prisoner about six or seven years; he always bore the best of characters.
What did he get his livelihood by? - When he had nothing to do in the gunsmith way, he went to be a waiter; he was a waiter at Ranelagh-gardens last summer.
GUILTY . Death .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Baron BURLAND.
GUILTY of stealing to the value of ten pence .
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
CHARLES TOMPKINS . I am coachman to Mr. Greenland, a surgeon. On the 22d November , as I was going out with my coach, the prisoner at the bar was coming up the yard, I desired him to lend me a hand in putting too the horses, as he was a helper . When I went away with the carriage, I gave him the key of the stable door, and desired him to take care of it, which he promised he would. My box was just come out of the country; in my absence he took out of it two pair of corderoy breeches, a pair of leather breeches, a coat, four waistcoats, a great coat, three shirts, marked C. T. and a pair of buttons. About four in the afternoon I returned with the coach, and found the stable door about half open, my box opened, and every thing took out but one shirt and two pair of stockings. I suspected the prisoner, and had him taken up. I saw my cloaths again at Guildhall.
CHRISTOPHER SMITH . About 10 o'clock in the evening, when I came home, I saw a sack in my room; I asked my man what it was? he said a man left it until called for; my curiosity led me to open it, when I found a great many things in it. Soon after the prisoner came into the tap-room, where the sack was, and said he wanted the sack he had left there a little time before, I asked him if the things contained in it were his own? he said they were his own cloaths, and if I would let him try them on, every one in the sack would fit him. I told him I would stop him till he had taken an oath before a magistrate that they were his, which he said he would do. We went to justice Whiteworth, who would not permit him to take the oath, but ordered him to go and bring some voucher to his character. He went away, and I sent a man to watch him; he went into the Black Horse in the Borough: among the things in the sack I found a letter directed to Charles Tompkins : the man who went with him sent to let us know that the prisoner had gone no further than the Black Horse; I went there and sent him to Bridewell. He told me that he had pawned a pair of knee buckles at a pawnbroker's at London Wall. (The buckles were produced, and deposed to by the prosecutor, who said they were in the knees of the black corderoy breeches.)
JOHN STEVENSON . I watched the prisoner at the Black Horse, until Mr. Smith went to see if he could get any intelligence about the matter; at last he came with a letter directed to Charles Tompkins : we then seized the prisoner, and went and found out the prosecutor, who told us that he had lost those cloaths.
I never owned the cloaths at all; there were four or five Jews in the stable looking at some cloaths the prosecutor had to sell. I left the key as usual.
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
NOT GUILTY .
46. JOHN SMITH was indicted for feloniously breaking and entering the dwelling-house, of Charles Grice , on the 18th of November , in the night, and stealing eight pair of pistols, the property of the said Charles in his dwelling house .
I am the son of William Grice ; between the 18th and 19th of October last our house was broke open; fourteen or fifteen pair of pistols were taken out of the warehouse, some of them were mounted with silver. A day or two after Joseph Smith came and asked if we had not lost some pistols, I told him we had: he said they had been offered to him, and I might have them again; some of them had our name on the holster: he said he would stop the man who had brought them. Next day I appointed to meet him at eleven o'clock, but the prisoner was taken before that by Sir John Fielding 's people. [Eight pair of pistols were produced in Court, which the witness deposed were his father's (the prosecutor's) property, and a part of what were lost out of the warehouse at that time.]
I am a gunsmith, and live in the Fleet-Market, on the 19th of October, about ten or eleven in the morning, the prisoner came and asked me if I would buy some pistols, I asked where they were? - He took me to the sign of the George, near Holborn Bars; there came in a woman, the prisoner said if I would go along with her she would shew them to me. She took me up a court about fifty yards from the George, and there is a room up one pair of stairs, she shewed me the pistols. She desired I would take them away, for that if her husband came home and saw them, he would kick her out of doors. I went back to the prisoner, who was still at the George; he asked what I would give for them? I said they were worth a good deal of money, and I would give him twelve guineas for them; he asked if I would take them with me? I told him I would come next morning and settle with him. I knew the pistols belonged to Mr. Grice, having had dealings with him: I went to Mr. Grice and told him what had happened, and appointed to meet him at eleven o'clock at my house: about nine o'clock Smith came again, and asked if I would have the pistols? I told him I would: he said they were then at a house in Drury-lane, I went with him to a public house, and desired him to stay there about an hour; I then went to Sir John Fielding's office, and some of his people came with me and apprehended the prisoner.
I had been in the Borough, and coming home about six in the morning I found the pistols in the street, wrapped up in a coarse towel. I am a bricklayer's labourer, and sometimes work in a dye-house.
NOT GUILTY of breaking and entering the dwelling house; but GUILTY of stealing the goods . T .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
I am a bricklayer , and live in Lime-street. On the 6th of November I lost a trunk, containing several shirts, some table linen, and a child's frock. The trunk held our foul linen. Thomas Francklyn came once a month, and took the trunk to Islington to get the things washed. Next day (the 7th) we were informed that it had been stolen out of his cart,
I live with Mr. Bedder: I saw the trunk taken out of the kitchen to go to Islington, but am not certain what day it was; it contained shirts, sheets, &c.
On the 6th of November I had a trunk from Mr. Bedder's to carry to Islington: I did not examine the contents; it was not locked, but secured with a cord. I stopt at the Flower-Pot, in Threadneedle-street, where I always take in parcels; somebody came and called out to me,
"you have lost all the things out
"of your cart." I went out and met a carman bringing the trunk in upon his back; there was no direction upon it; I always carried it once a month, it was that trunk which I had from Mr. Bedder's.
WILLIAM CARTER . On the 6th of November, about seven at night, as I was coming from my work, just as I passed the Flower-Pot, alehouse, I saw two men carrying a trunk upon their shoulders from the cart then standing at the door; they crossed the street into a court, and I followed them; the prisoner then lifted it up on the other man's head; I thought it was not their property, so shook the man who carried it on his head by the shoulder: Miller walked as close as he could to the man, who threw it down from the right side of his head, with an intent, as I thought, to let it fall on me. I then cried out stop thief; the other man ran away, and a butcher pursued him. Miller turned back and walked behind the cart; I took him, but the other man is not yet taken.
Did Miller make any resistance? - No; he said he was not guilty. I brought the prisoner in my hand, and a hackney coachman brought the box into the alehouse: I did not know what was in the box till next morning, when we went before alderman Wilkes.
Are you sure the prisoner had one end of the box on his shoulder? - Yes, I am sure he had.
As I was coming along the street, on the left hand side of the way, I heard a man cry out stop thief; he said here is one of them, and took me into the alehouse; they looked at me several times. Certainly, if I had been the man who had taken it, I should have ran away. I sell apples and pears about the streets with a jack ass.
GUILTY . T .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
Tried by the Middlesex Jury.
49, 50, 51. THOMAS JONES , RICHARD KITCHERMAN , and RICHARD MEALING were indicted, the two first for stealing five iron bars, value two shillings , the property of the inhabitants of Saffron-hill, Hatton-street, and Ely-rents ; and the other for feloniously receiving the said bars, well knowing them to have been stolen .
3d Count. The property of persons unknown, November 28th .
JOHN HYDE . On the 8th of November, at half after ten at night, I saw the prisoners Jones and Kitcherman go along Turnmill-street, with five bars of iron in their hands; they went to the prisoner Mealing's house: when they came to the house, I heard a talking at the window of something about a penny a pound, and heard some noise as if they were weighing iron: I called to Spencer
THOMAS SPENCER . I am a watchman, Hyde saw the iron in the scale, and asked Mealing if any boys had been there to sell old iron? Mealing said no; upon his saying he saw the boys there, Mealing said they brought the bars there to weigh.
A young fellow I was with went upon a dunghill, and trod upon something that jingled, which appeared to be iron bars under the dung: he called me directly, and said, Tom, I have found some iron bars; he gave them to me to sell in Turnmill-street. I met Kitcher-man, at Mutton-hill, and desired him to take hold of two of the bars; I saw Mealings's door open; I asked him if he would buy old iron: he said he would not at that time of night; he would weigh it, and if we called in the morning he would pay for it.
JONES and KITCHERMAN GUILTY of stealing to the value of ten pence .
MEALING ACQUITTED .
51. JOHN SULLIVAN was indicted for stealing a leather bag, value one penny, and twenty-three, pounds and nine shillings in money numbered, the property of George Power , in the dwelling-house of the said George Power .
3d Count. Laying it to be the property of persons unknown, November 6th .
WILLIAM FRAZIER . I am general superintender of the East India merchants goods. I stoped the prisoner last Friday with four pound of leaf tobacco, just coming out of a lighter, in which there were some hogsheads of tobacco with the heads out; he had been employed among the hogsheads; he had some of the tobacco in his pocket, and some in the inside of his breeches.
I picked up the tobacco, and was going to carry it to the cooper's to put in the tar-box; when I was about six yards from the lighter this man stopped me.
GUILTY . T .
54, 55. LAMB SMITH and JOHN DAVIS were indicted for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of James Lewis Desouneaux , on the 18th of November, about the hour of one in the night, and stealing twenty-five pound weight of silk, value 40 l. the property of the said James Lewis Desouneaux , in his dwelling-house .
I am a dyer, and live in Charles-street, Spitalfields : I went to bed upon the 18th of November at about eleven o'clock; when I got up at six in the morning, I found some of my windows broke open, and I missed a quantity of silk, which, upon examination, I found had been carried through an empty house that is next door to mine; they had got in through that empty house: the silk was taken out of the dye-house: adjoining to my dwelling-house; it is under the same roof: we traced where the silk had been carried to by the black spots, the
Was any part of the house broke? - A place in the casement of the window was broke, large enough for a man to get through, and the empty house next door was as black as a dye-house.
I found this silk (producing it) by the information of one Wagstaffe, in a garden belonging to an empty house, at a place called the World's-end, Stepney: I also took the two prisoners, upon Wagstaffe's information, at the Rose, the back of the London Infirmary, Mile-end.
Prosecutor. I can swear positively to the silk, every bit has a different mark; all the marks are entered in our books: if only one knob of it was taken away, I could swear to it: it is silk I am intrusted with to dye for different weavers.
Yesterday was three weeks (Friday) in the evening, the prisoners and myself, together with Grant and Bean, who are not taken, were all at one Mr. Hutchinson's, a wine-house, in Colchester-street, Whitechapel; we fat drinking there till two or three in the morning, then we talked of going home together: Davis, Bean, Grant, and I went on first, and Smith said he would follow us; we went on till we came to the dye-house: Grant said, here is a nice place to get some silk; we all consented to it, upon which Grant, who lived within forty yards of the place, went home and got an iron crow and some pick-lock keys, then we went up to an empty house, which is the next door; Grant undid the door, and we all went in: Grant opened a little window of the dye-house that looks into the yard; Bean and Grant got in, I stood by the window on the outside, Davis staid in the empty house: Bean and Grant gave me as much silk out of the window as they thought would be enough, and then they came out: we put the silk into a bag, and carried it to Grant's house, which is very near the place; I cannot tell the name of the street, and from thence we carried it to Stepney, and there Bean and Grant proposed to put it in a summer-house in a garden belonging to an empty house: Bean and Grant got over the wall; I handed the silk up to them, and they put it in the summer-house, where we left it.
Was it wet or dry? - Quite wet: then we went to the Ship at Stepney, where we breakfasted; we staid there two or three hours, after which we went to an alehouse in Stepney Church-yard, and staid there till pretty near dark: then Grant said he knew a person that would buy it, one Wagstaffe, in Angel-alley, Bishopsgate-street; he said he was a man that got his living by buying stolen silk: I asked Grant to go down to Wagstaffe and ask him if he would buy it; he said he did not like to go because the thief takers knew him, and if they saw him they would stop him: then I agreed to go, and they said they would go to the Black Dog, Mile-end Turnpike, and wait there while I went to Wagstaffe; we all came together to the Black Dog; it was dark when we came there: I bid them go in and wait till I came to them: I went to Whitechapel, and down Petticoat-lane, there I met Lamb Smith; I asked him where he had been, he said he had been to his sisters; I asked him to go with me to Angel-alley: when we came there, I desired Smith to go into the alehouse and ask for one Wagstaffe: Smith went in and enquired; Wagstaffe came out of the alehouse to me; I called him aside: I told him I came from Grant, who wanted to know whether he would buy this silk: Grant said he had sold him things several times; he said he had not money enough about him then to go with me, but any place I would appoint in two hours he would come to me; I appointed the Black Dog at Mile-end turnpike: then I called to Smith, who was about thirty yards off, and asked him to come along; he came with me to the corner of Bishopsgate-street: I then asked him to go with me to Whitechapel: as we wereDavis I had seen Wagstaffe, and he would come in about two hours: in about an hour and a half, as nigh as I can guess, he came: Grant seeing him, went out to speak to him; after which Grant called us out, and bid me and Wagstaffe take a coach: there was a coach standing over the way: Wagstaffe and I went into the coach, and bid him drive us to the White Horse down the road: between the turnpike and White Horse Grant came up to the side of the coach, and said he would have us get out; I asked him the reason why, he said he believed Wagstaffe had beset us, in order for the thieftakers to take us: I said I did not believe any such thing; the coachman drove on to the corner of the White Horse that leads up to Stepney Church: I asked the coachman to drive up the lane that led up to the church, but he refused; he said he did not like to go out of the road; we paid him a shilling: Wagstaffe and I got out; then we met with Bean, Davis, and Grant, and we all five went along the fields to go to the summer house: Grant and Bean got over a fence to go a back way to the summer house, they got within twenty yards of the garden; then they came over the fence again, and said they had been robb'd: we went the same way we had been in the morning; when we came to the place there stood a coach; says Grant, I wonder what this coach is standing here for, I am sure it is for no good: they made a stop, and said they would not go for the silk at all: going by a public house I said let us go in and drink; we went in to drink, and there set Smith: after we had drank about a pot of beer, Bean said we will go up and see if the coach is there still, which we agreed to; they went: Wagstaffe staid about a quarter of an hour, and then went away, and left Smith, Davis, and me in the box together: we had not sat there half an hour before justice Wilmot's men came and took us three.
Lamb Smith was not at the house when the house was broke open, and the silk taken away? - No: I did not see him till the next day, when I met him in Petticoat-lane.
This day was three weeks at night, Lamb Smith told me he had got a quantity of silk to dispose of: he came to me at a public house, the Cock, in Angle-alley; he called me out and said if I could raise 20 or 30 l. he could make a man of me: I told him I had not got so much money; he said the silk was wet: I had received one of the hand bills just before, concerning the silk being stolen out of the dyehouse that morning: I told him I had not money enough, and I could not give an answer within less than two hours: he told me I might find him in two hours at the Black Dog at Mile-end.
Was it Smith that told you this? - It was Lamb Smith that told me: I left him and went into the public house again, and told the landlord what had happened: he advised me to make an information before a justice, and he went with me to Mr. Wilmot's office; where I laid an information against Lamb Smith: I did not know any others that were concerned at that time. Mr. Wilmot's men and I went to the Black Dog, at the corner of the Dog-row, Whitechapel; when I went into the house, Lamb Smith came to me and asked me what money I had brought with me? I told him I had not above four or five guineas; he said I might leave the money with them and take the silk, and they would call for the rest in the morning; that the silk was in a summer house, and they must have a coach to fetch it away; I told them I would go and get a coach: justice Wilmot's men were round the house; I let them know the silk was in a summer house at Stepney, and bid them follow the coach to find it out: Fryer and I got into the coach and the rest walked. Just before we came to the White Horse, Lamb Smith came up and said,
"d - n his eyes, he has brought the traps with him." I said I had not: then he bid the coachman drive on, the coach went as far as the White Horse, then the coachman would not carry us any farther: Fryer and I got out, Fryer paid a shilling, and we went down the lane a little way, and went into aLamb Smith , John Davis , and James Fryer : I went afterwards with Ryder and Lewin to the summer house for the silk, Ryder got into a summer house and found the silk.
Are you certain it was Smith and not Fryer, that came to you at the public house to offer you the silk? - I am certain it was Smith.
FRYER. I am the only man that applied to him. Wilmot's men came to me; and Robert Lewin said he would give me two or three guineas, if I would only swear Smith was in the robbery with me: I said how can that be done; he said very well, for Wagstaffe was to have six guineas if Smith was cast, and he has had part of it already.
Q. to Wagstaffe. Have you had any money? - No, not a farthing.
[The information of James Fryer before the justice was read; and it appearing that his evidence upon the trial was quite contrary to his information before the justice, he was committed by the Court to take his trial for the burglary.]
I attend justice Wilmot's office. On Saturday night, the 11th of November, I went in company with Ryder and Wagstaffe to a place they call the World's-end, at Stepney; there I saw Ryder take a quantity of silk out of a summer house; we brought it away.
Do you know Fryer? - I do.
Did you tell him you would give him two or three guineas to swear Smith was in this robbery? - No.
Did you never say what Wagstaffe was to have? - No.
Not that he was to have six guineas, and had part of it already? - No.
Somebody persuaded Fryer to swear against me to get the blood money of me, as they call it.
I did no more than what Fryer asked me to do: I went with him to Angel-alley, he called this man out, I did not know what he said to him: there was a dyer's coat left at my mother's all over dye; I having that coat, which was proved to belong to Fryer, Ryder and Lewin swore it was my coat, and committed me to prison.
LEWIN. I never was in his house.
RYDER. Manwaring and I were at his house; we took up a dyer's coat, and his wife said it was his, I did not swear it was his.
Davis called three witnesses, who gave him a good character.
Q. to Wagstaffe. When you went towards the summer house, was Smith in company with you? - Yes; we went to a public house to drink.
You did not find him sitting there? - No; he went with us.
DAVIS GUILTY . Death .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
56. GEORGE LEE was indicted, for that he in the King's highway in and upon Thomas Cuddin , Esq; feloniously did make an assault, putting him in corporal fear and danger of his life, and stealing from his person fourteen shillings in money numbered, the property of the said Thomas , December 4th .
Upon Monday the 4th of December, between nine and ten o'clock in the evening, I was robb'd on the road between Brentford and London, near Gunnersbury-lane : it was light enough to see the person of the man that robb'd me: I am certain the prisoner is the man; he was mounted on a light grey horse, and dressed in a coat near the colour he is now; his hat was cock'd, and his face plain to be seen: I was in a chaise
"your money, I am a gentleman in distress,
"make haste:" I bid him not be rude, and he should have the money; upon that he said,
"D - n you, make haste." I gave him about twelve or fourteen shillings; he asked "if
"that was all;" I said yes, I had been shooting in the country, and could not be supposed to have much money: then he demanded my watch, and bid me make haste: I told him I had no watch, he replied, "you have;" I told him I had not, and if he would not be satisfied, he must come in and search; he then said,
"D - n your blood, if I find more money or
"a watch, I will blow your brains out," and cocked his pistol; upon this Mr. Cummings said, don't be violent, take away your pistol, here is my money, and gave him his purse; I believe, before that, the prisoner did not see Mr. Cummings, as I sat pretty forward in the chaise, wrapped up in my great coat: he then said,
"O d - n you, then I must have your
"watch; give me your watch directly, or I
"will blow your brains out." Mr. Cummings gave him his watch, and said don't use us cruel; the prisoner said,
"D - n you, why
"were you so long, why did not you give it
"me at first: gentlemen, have you got any
"money to pay the turnpikes?" I said we could not have much, I had got some halfpence, then he rode off. I remarked his person particularly, and his voice; his hair hung in his neck all round his head. I gave an information at Sir John Fielding 's of the robbery, and described the person of the robber; several of the men there said they knew who it was: upon Thursday morning I received a letter from Sir John Fielding , desiring me to attend him immediately: I went there, the justice bid me look at the man, and see if I knew him; I said, I believed he was the person, but desired him to put on his hat; when he put his hat on, I found it was not the hat he had on when he robbed me; but upon his speaking, I was well assured he was the man: he was then remanded to prison, and ordered to be brought up the next morning, when the driver of the chaise was to attend. I am positive the prisoner is the man that robbed me.
As Mr. Cuddin and I were returning to town, a little this side Gunnersbury-lane, a person on horseback rode up to the chaise, and demanded our money; I believe Mr. Cuddin was asleep at the time, but he was alarmed, and gave him his money: the man was not satisfied with what Mr. Cuddin gave him, but said he must have some more; Mr. Cuddin told him he had no more; he said you have more, and I must have it; give me your watch, he said he had no watch, and he might come in and search; he said,
"D - n your
"eyes, if I find more money or a watch, I will
"blow your brains out:" I then leaned forward, and said, don't use us ill, the gentleman has no more money nor watch:
"O! said he, your
"money then;" I gave him my purse: he then said again,
"If he searched us and found
"any more money or a watch, he would blow
"our brains out. While he was robbing Mr. Cuddin, the prisoner not seeing me, I had time to lighten my purse, and leave in it what I thought proper, and had an opportunity to take notice of his person: I can positively swear the prisoner is the same man, he had the same coat on he has now. There was a circumstance Mr. Cuddin forgot when he was robbing us, he called out,
"Matt, you need
"not come up," by which we concluded there was another person; when he was taken, there was one Matthias M'Mahone taken with him, but we saw only the prisoner: I knew him again when I saw him at Sir John Fielding 's; his hair was then a little curled, not so much as it is now; when he committed the robbery it was quite upon his shoulders.
Prisoner. Did you take notice whether the person that robbed you had boots on? - I cannot say I did.
When did you first see him after the robbery? - Upon the Thursday following; I was robbed on the Monday.
Prisoner. Was any of your property found upon me? - I don't know.
Prisoner. What time of night was you robbed? - Nearer to ten I believe than nine.
Was it light enough to distinguish me? - I am afraid it was; it certainly was.
"Matt, keep back,
"you need not come up, here is no occasion."
Did you see the horse again? - Yes; I believe it was the same horse; it was much like it.
I live in Chandos-street; I let a little grey poney, twelve hands high, to the prisoner. I don't let out horses; I have the palsy, and keep this horse to ride on myself: he asked me to let him have it on the Monday morning to go to Hyde-park to see a sight: the shoes were out of order, I told him he could not have it. I let him have it about two in the afternoon; he said he wanted to go to Deptford to see a captain of a ship; he returned with it about half an hour after ten o'clock on Thursday night: I took the horse to Sir John Fielding 's, and saw the two gentlemen there at the time; there were two horses produced much alike; they said the person that robbed them was on my horse; that was the horse I let him have on Monday afternoon.
Mr. CUDDIN. I said we were robbed between nine and ten.
Prisoner. Did not you say you could not swear to me? - No.
I attend at Sir John Fielding 's. I apprehended the prisoner on Wednesday about two o'clock in the afternoon, at the Green Man and Bush, on Epping Forrest, adjoining to lord Tylney's park; M'Mahone was in company with him, he is discharged; I don't know his christian name; I never saw him before that day, to the best of my knowledge: M'Mahone was on a black horse, and the prisoner on a grey poney.
Did you see the prisoner come into town on the Monday evening? - I saw him at the sign of the Union Arms, Piccadilly, about half after ten, or near eleven o'clock; I cannot speak to half an hour; there was a horse standing at the door, and a mob of people about it; I turned to see what was the matter, and the prisoner came out of the house; I took hold of his hand, and said, how do you do, Captain? he went to the corner of the house and made water, and then he said, "D - n my eyes, I
"have been upon the scamp" (which is a cant word for having been upon the highway)
"and that is the prad" (meaning the horse): he mounted the horse and rode off as fast as he could.
Prisoner. I will leave it to the gentlemen of the jury, whether they can believe a man that is used to take persons for going upon the highway would have let me escape if he heard such words.
I keep the Union Arms, Piccadilly. I have seen the prisoner several times; he came into my house on Monday se'nnight, and desired somebody to take care of his horse: he wanted some punch, but being in liquor I would not make him any: I did not go out to see the horse, he staid but a few minutes.
What hour did he come to your house? - I cannot say particularly, I believe it was after ten o'clock; he pulled out some money to let me see he had money, and dropp'd some; I picked up a thirty-six shilling piece.
I leave myself to the mercy of the Court: I was taken so lately, I have not had time to send for my friends; I think it hard I should be tried so soon.
GUILTY . Death .
75. SAUNDERS ALEXANDER , LYON ABRAHAMS, otherwise LYPE , and CLARA BENJAMIN were indicted; the two first for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Thomas Pratt , on the 8th of October , about the hour of nine in the night, and stealing one hundred and fifty-two pieces of linen cloth, containing three thousand seven hundred and ninety-six yards, value three hundred and fifty-five pounds, the property of Joseph Wakefield , Edward Wakefield , Thomas Pratt , and John Miers , in the dwelling-house of the said Thomas Pratt : and the other for feloniously receiving the said goods, well knowing them to have been stolen .
(The witnesses were examined apart at the request of the prisoners.)
I am servant to Mr. Pratt, a merchant in Lad-lane : at about seven o'clock on Monday morning, the 6th of October, I found the door of the warehouse, which adjoins to the dwelling-house, broke open: I shut the door myself on Saturday night, and did not see the warehouse again till Monday morning, when I missed one hundred and fifty-two pieces of Irish linen, each containing twenty-five yards. There were two cases broke open, and they had taken a whole box, except one piece, and twenty-two pieces out of the other. I know nothing of the prisoners.
On his Cross Examination he said, that there was no way from the dwelling-house to the warehouse, without going into the street, but that the warehouse and dwelling-house were under one roof; that Mr. Pratt lived in the house, and that he believed both the house and warehouse, were rented together of the Mercers company; that he did not know that the rent for the warehouse was paid out of the partnership stock.
I am warehouse-man to Messrs. Wakefield, Pratt, and Miers.
Who does the warehouse belong to? - The warehouse and house belong to Mr. Pratt; the business is carried on at No 1, in Lad-lane; this is No 6. Upon Monday, the 9th of October, James Todd informed me that the warehouse was broke open, and a quantity of linen taken away; I went with him, and missed one hundred and fifty-two pieces of linen: we went immediately and gave information of it to Sir John Fielding , and distributed handbills, and had it advertised in the news-papers; in consequence of which, upon Tuesday the 14th of November, we had an information, upon which we searched the house of one Cohen a Jew, and found some of the things: Mr. Bond and some of Sir John Fielding 's men went to see where he bought the goods. I don't know any more of my own knowledge.
On his Cross Examination he said, that Mr. Pratt had the house and warehouse at No 6, Lad lane; that the rent of the house and warehouse, were paid out of his private stock, and not out of the partnership money; that Mr. Miers, who lives at No 1, Lad-lane, has also a warehouse, with his house; that the other two partners live, one in Clements Court, just by the warehouse, and the other in Ireland; that there was no way into the warehouse out of the dwelling-house.
I am in Sir John Fielding 's service: I went to search the house of Moses Cohen ; I found Cohen sitting by the fire in the lower room; when I went in I past him, and went into the bedroom, there I found two pieces of linen; Cohen then told me he would shew me where other things were. I left two men there, and went with Cohen to the house of Saunders Alexander, in Sweet-apple-court, there we found a great number of pieces of linen (the linens were produced in court): Alexander was not in the house when we found the linen there; I don't know it was his house, only Cohen said it was; and when Alexander was taken up, he claimed some goods and money I found in the house.
- JACKSON sworn.
I cannot positively swear to these linens, the marks being cut out; it is like the linen we missed, and I think it is my master's property.
I was at the finding of the linens in Cohen's house; I know no more.
The linen that Mr. Mardale and Halliburton found in my house I bought of the prisoner Clara Benjamin ; I did not ask her name: she told me where she lived, and said she had a stall in Spital-fields, and any body would tell who she was: I bought some of the linen at my own house, and some at her house: when Mardale and Halliburton came to my house, I said I would shew them where I bought the linen, and I took them to the house.
You don't know the man that kept the house? - No; I never saw a man in the house.
How do you know where she lived? - When I bought the remnants of her, she gave me a direction to Sweet-apple-court, and bid me
Armstrong, the deceased, came to me on the Saturday night, and told me they were going to do such a place in Lad-lane; they went on Saturday night to try if they could open it; I was not present then.
Was any body present when Armstrong told you that? - Yes, Lyon Abrahams: Armstrong told me it would do; he came to me on Sunday night, and said they had got plenty of fine Irish out of the warehouse; and he would call on me upon Monday morning, which he did, and I and Lyon Abrahams and Armstrong went to the warehouse of Mr. Pratt in Lad-lane: I asked why Alexander was not come, he said he would not get up, he had enough already: I stood at the corner of Aldermanbury and watched for them, while Armstrong and Abrahams brought out two bags, and we took them to Abraham's lodgings.
Do you know nothing of Saunders Alexander being at the house but what Abrahams told you? - No.
Have you told all you know of this affair? - As far as possible I can about the affair; what I know of Lyon Abrahams, Armstrong and myself being in that affair: we carried the goods to Lyon Abraham's house, in Blue-hart-court, Little-bell-alley.
Was you at the breaking open of the warehouse door? - No.
You did not see the warehouse door broke open? - No.
They had paid two or three visits before this to the warehouse? - Yes, as I heard from Armstrong and Lyon Abrahams.
Did you hear it from Abrahams then? - Yes.
Was you examined before? - Yes, I was examined before the aldermen; I said I saw three or four pieces of linen taken out of Lype Abrahams ' house: Sarah Lazarus took three pieces out of the drawers and two off the bed: this was the 6th of November, between nine and ten in the morning; I don't know where she carried them to.
I am very innocent; I know nothing at all about it.
I know nothing about it; I am very innocent.
FOR THE PRISONERS.
I have known Moses Cohen a good many years: I was going through Bow-street, I asked what was the matter, they said there were a great many Jews at Sir John Fielding 's; I went to the Brown Bear for a pint of beer, a person came to me and said Moses Cohen wanted me: I went and asked him what he wanted, he asked me to do a favour for him; I asked what it was, he said to swear against Clara Benjamin , and he would give me two guineas; I said I would not do such a thing for my own father, a woman in my condition, that looked every moment.
What was you to swear? - That I was in the room when she came to sell some linen at his house.
Q. to Cohen. Did you make such an offer to this woman? - No; I don't know any body.
Did you see this woman at Bow-street? - I don't know the woman.
Did you make such an offer to any body? - I never spoke to any body in my life.
I know Cohen, and I apprehended Saunders Alexander ; I was at the examination at Sir John Fielding 's upon Wednesday: coming out at Sir John Fielding 's, two women were with Cohen that swore they were in the room when Cohen bought the linen: when they were in the Brown Bear, Cohen said he was afraid of going abroad; Hart said it was hard for him to go abroad, he had a great family; it was no great matter for her to go abroad, as she had no family; he was sitting in the box drinking with them, they were talking together in Hebrew; he cried very much: Hart said what was he crying for, if their witnesses would not do, they would bring two more witnesses to the Old Bailey.
ALEXANDER NOT GUILTY .
ABRAHAMS GUILTY . Death
BENJAMIN GUILTY. T. 14 years .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
58, 59, 60. SAUNDERS ALEXANDER and LYON ABRAHAMS, otherwise LYPE , were a second time indicted, together with SARAH LAZARUS , for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling house of Richard Sandford , upon the 12th of November , about the hour of six in the evening, with intention the goods and chattels of the said Richard feloniously to steal .
I am a baker and live in Great Winchester-street . I went out upon the 12th of last month, at a quarter before five, and came home again before seven: I left two servants and three men in the house; my sister and I went out together; I double-locked the door: we observed two men standing on the opposite side of the way, they went up the street: when they saw me lock the door they turned back and followed us, one turned down the wall and the other followed us through the postern: I don't know the person of either of those men: when I returned at near seven o'clock, I found my house had been broke open; it had been attempted twice before.
I am servant to Mr. Sandford: I was left in the house by Mr. Sandford on the 12th of last month: soon after Mr. Sandford and his sister went out, between five and six o'clock, there were two or three knocks at the door, ten minutes or a quarter of an hour distant: about ten minutes after the knocking, I heard a key put into the door that seemed not to do, it was taken out and another key put into the door, and the door was opened: I was in the bakehouse at the same time with a candle concealed: the bakehouse is about six yards from the door; when I heard the door open I came forwards with the candle to the cellar door; as I came up three young men in the house-fired at the man that opened the door: Armstrong was shot; I did not see him till he was shot: I know nothing of the prisoners.
I was in the house: after the three knocks, the door was opened, and three men rushed in; they were fired upon, and one of them killed, the others made their escape; I cannot speak as to the persons of the men.
I live in Winchester-street, opposite Mr. Sandford; I heard a knock at the door; I came to the fore window and saw a man stoop down and two persons turned their backs upon him, and spread their great coats to cover him: I could not see the men so as to know them; I was up two pair of stairs; if I had been near I should have been able to distinguish their faces.
I am an opposite neighbour to Mr. Sandford: having had intelligence that Mr. Sandford's house had been attempted to be broke open, and hearing a knocking at the door, I went into my shop and looked through the crevies of the shutters: I saw three men, one stooped down to look in at the key-hole, and two others stood before him, with their backs to him to conceal him: they went away; I
I live in Winchester-street: as I was coming home on the 12th of November, about five o'clock, I saw two men in the street near Mr. Sandford's house; one was dressed in brown, and the other, on the opposite side of the way, in light cloaths; I saw one of them walk away hanging down his head: just after that, while I was at my door, I heard the firing: I cannot identify the persons, they were about the size of the prisoners; I believe Saunders Alexander to be one of them from his size and gait; when I saw him at Sir John Fielding 's, I said I believed he was one of the rogues I saw in our street that night.
I went to Armstrong at Lype Abrahams', on Sunday the 12th of November, between ten and eleven o'clock in the morning, with a pair of shoes I had made for him: there was then in the house Sarah Lazarus , Hannah Saunders , and Armstrong; Armstrong paid me for the shoes, and I went home: about a quarter after five I went again to Lype Abrahams' house, and there were two young men that were come to see him, Robert Thompson and John Waterson ; Armstrong and I went to see for him: as we were coming up London-wall I asked what part of the play they were going to act, Armstrong said they were going to do a house in Winchester-street: we met Sarah Lazarus , and asked her where she had been; she said she had been at the baker's and knocked, and there was nobody there: I asked her where Lype Abrahams and Alexander were, she said they were in Winchester-street; I went to Winchester-street, and saw Abrahams with a brown coat on, standing at the baker's door, and Alexander in a light coat on the other side of the way; I did not speak to them, but went home, and then went to Abrahams' house: while I was there Armstrong came in, he took a pair of pistols out of a chest, he unscrewed one and took the ball out, and said that would do; he then opened a box and took a parcel of picklock keys out and some chissels; his hand shaked very much at the time; Sarah Lazarus was there, and said she was going with me, I said I would not go; she said you bougre I am going to carry something.
When you saw Abrahams and Alexander in the street, did you know what they were about? - Yes.
Did they know you was in the scheme? -
No; I only was told it by Armstrong.
On his Cross Examination he said he saw Abrahams and Armstrong open the door, and then he went home; that Alexander was then on the other side of the way; that it was then about half after five o'clock.
When I heard that a man was shot, I went down to Lyon Abrahams' house; Sarah Lazarus and Hannah Saunders were there; I said there was a man shot in Winchester-street; they made answer it was at the bloody baker's shop they had talked about: about half an hour after Sarah Lazarus and Hannah Saunders came to my house and offered me some picklock keys: I said what was I to do with them, neither my husband nor I could use them.
I have witness to prove where I was.
I have witness to prove I was at another place.
FOR THE PRISONERS.
I live in New-court: I carry out meat in a morning for a Jew butcher in Shoemakerrow, and make and sell black puddings of a night: I know Alexander by serving him with black puddings; I saw him the night Mr. Sandford's house was broke open at Mr. Vaughan's coffee-house in Duke's-place: to the best of my knowledge it was then sometime after five o'clock, it might be a quarter or more, it was not half an hour; I staid about a quarter of an hour till I had sold my puddings; it might be near six when I went away:
I go to Vaughan's coffee-house every night, except Friday night, to sell olives and pickles. I went there on the 12th of November, between five and six o'clock in the evening; I knew Alexander from a child, he was sitting there with his father: I staid there till nine o'clock; I always stay till nine; when I set my dish down on the table, I went and spoke to Saunders, he sat with his father an hour or an hour and a half; I don't think it was quite half after five when I saw him there. I am sure he was there an hour and half.
The prisoner is my son, he was with me at Vaughan's coffee-house upon Sunday the 12th of November; he drank tea with me, and then we went and had some beer at a house in Duke's-place: just after five we went to Vaughan's coffee-house, and staid there till nine o'clock; my son was never out of company but once just to make water.
Was Mr. Vaughan at home? - He was at church: I believe he came home before eight o'clock; his wife, daughter, and servant were in the house: I asked Mr. Vaughan if he would come and speak for my son? he said he would never shew his face in any court.
I know all the prisoners by sight; I have known Alexander from a child, he kept a stall with haberdashery wares in Spitalfields market, he bore the character of an honest man; I never heard any thing against him.
I am a tobacconist in Pettycoat-lane: I have known Alexander from a child; I never heard any thing against his character.
I am a leather breeches-maker in Shoemaker-row: I have known Alexander twenty years; he used to sell goods in the country by licence; he bears a good character.
I live in Sweet-apple-court: I get my living by needlework: I have been employed by Alexander to mend and make, and wash and iron for him; he bears the character of a very honest industrious man.
The Court sent for Vaughan.
- VAUGHAN sworn.
I keep a coffee-house in Duke's-place.
Do you remember Alexander being at your house on the 12th of November at five o'clock, or any time after? - I cannot swear he was there at that time, he might be; I will not swear he was not for the world. I never observed any thing ill of the young man in my house.
You never heard any ill of him? - No; I never heard him swear an oath in my life as I know of.
SAUNDERS ALEXANDER GUILTY . Death .
LYON ABRAHAMS GUILTY . Death .
SARAH LAZARUS NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
59. WILLIAM THOMAS was indicted for stealing two checkshirts, value six shillings, one linen shirt, value three shillings, one pair of men's leather shoes, value four shillings, one silk handkerchief, value three shillings, one pair of cloth breeches, value ten shillings, and one canvas bag. value six pence , the property of John Hollwell , November 17th .
JOHN HOLLWELL sworn.
I live in Devonshire, I am a mariner . I belonged to the ship Sardinia ; my chest was broke open, and robbed of the wearing apparel mentioned in the indictment, while I was working aboard another ship. On Sunday was a fort-night, part of my cloaths were found on the prisoner's back; and he confessed that he unlooked the chest; that he had sold the handkerchief; the shoes he said had been taken out of his pocket on Tower-hill. (The cloaths were produced in Court, and deposed to by the prosecutor).
I am a labourer at the Victualling-office, and knew both the prosecutor and prisoner. On the 1st of December I met the prisoner with the prosecutor's jacket and shirt on his back: I asked him why he robb'd John Hollwell . He began to be obstreperous; I took him to justice Sherwood's office: I told him if he would tell us whether he broke the chest open or not, we would be favourable and speak for him: he said he would as lieve go to Newgate as not, and if he should be hang'd, he was not the first.
I was aboard the ship a week: the mate told me if I would not be more nimble I must go ashore: I told him I would not go till the captain came. On Friday the captain came on board, and on Saturday morning the captain asked what I had taken out of the ship, this man said nothing: the captain gave me a shilling when I went on shore.
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
GUILTY. Petty Larceny .
I live in Swallow-street , am a taylor, and keep a sale-shop . On the 27th of October last, between two and three in the afternoon, I lost a wollen great coat out of the passage; the prisoner was taken with it.
I keep a shop opposite the prosecutor: and on the 27th of October I saw the prisoner go past his shop; seeing nobody in it, he turned back and went in; I saw him come out with the great coat on his arm. I went over to enquire if they had sold him the coat; and finding they had not, I went after the prisoner and brought him back. He told me that he was a coachman out of place: that it was his first offence, and begged me to let him go: I said the coat was not my property, and sent for Mr. Henderson, who came in about ten minutes after: he sent for a constable and took him before a justice.
I bought the great coat from a man in Oxford-road; I came down Swallow-street and this man followed me. I never was in his house.
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
GUILTY of stealing to the value of ten-pence .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Baron BURLAND.
THOMAS TUCK sworn.
I know Mess. Bosanquit, who live in Lime-street, their coachhouse is in Alderman's-walk, near Bishopsgate : last Sunday morning, a little after seven o'clock, I looked out of the window and saw the prisoner at the bar on the top of the coach-house cutting off the lead: he had ripp'd off one sheet and thrown it down, and was taking off another: I immediately called one of the servants, and told him there was a man taking the lead off the house: I went to the window where I saw the prisoner first, and called to him: he said he was ordered to take it off, and would do it; I said he should not: I ran out and met him at the top of Alderman's-walk, and delivered him to the watchman, who kept him till a constable came.
Last Sunday morning I saw the prisoner cutting the lead off Messrs. Bosanquit's coach-house, I likewise saw him get down and go through the walk, till the last witness took him.
On Sunday morning about seven o'clock I was sent for to take charge of the prisoner at the bar: I found a knife at the top of the house, and on searching him I found two knives in his pocket.
I was ordered by a coachman to go and take the lead off the house, and the young man who spoke first, said it is very well, when I told him I was ordered by a coachman: I said I would go and see if I had not proper authority.
GUILTY . T .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. Baron BURLAND.
Ordered by the Court to be delivered to his father, being only nine years of age.
The prosecutor not appearing, the Jury brought in their verdict NOT GUILTY .
On the 21st of October , about eleven at night, I went to the Nag's Head, in Dean-street, St. Giles's , and got a pint of beer, and a glass of gin; I happened to lay my head on the table and fell asleep; when I awoke, I found my pocket was cut, and half a guinea and eighteen pence in silver gone. Next morning I met a woman who asked me if I had got my money: I did not know the woman; she took me to the same house where I had been, and shewed me the prisoner at the bar, and said she saw him cut my pocket. I then went out and got a constable, who took him to the round-house; and on searching the prisoner found ten shillings in silver in his pocket: the constable then took him to justice Welsh, who sent for the woman, but she could not be found; the man of the public house said he would be answerable for her appearance.
What business are you? - I am a bricklayer , and live in Drury-lane.
On the 21st of October I went into the Nag's Head, in Dean-street, for a pint of beer, and this man (meaning the prosecutor) was asleep on the top of the tables: the prisoner sat down by him, and I saw him cut his pocket; as soon as he had done it he went out.
Did he say any thing to you before he cut his pocket? - No; I was only in for a pint of beer.
Who was in the room besides? - A whole room full of people.
Did you tell the company what was done? - Yes, and some of them ran out, but could not catch him.
You did not awake the man? - No.
Did you know the prisoner before? - No, never in my life. I was taken up on suspicion
In what way do you get your living? - I work with a jack ass.
Mr. LYON sworn.
I was informed that the last witness was in company with the prisoner, I took him up, he said he saw the prisoner take the money out of the man's pocket.
NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
The prosecutor not appearing, the Jury returned their verdict NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
71. MARY HARRIS was indicted for stealing a black leather pocket book, value six pence, and an inland bill of exchange, signed by one John Spink for one John Scotchmer , bearing date the 28th of August 1775, 40 l. payable to William Moseley or order, at seven days sight, and directed to Messrs, Fuller, Halford, and Vaughan, Bankers, London, the property of James Oding , privately from his person , November 11th .
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
73, 74. BURTON WOOD and JAMES MEEKEN were indicted for that they in the King's highway, in and upon Elizabeth, the wife of William Davidson , feloniously did make an assault, putting her in corporal fear and danger of her life, and stealing from her person a guinea and seven shillings in money numbered, the property of the said William , May 12th .
I live at Gosport. On the 12th of May, at eleven at night, I set off from London in the Gosport stage; I had a child in my lap: the coach was stopped between twelve and one on Smallberry Green by Burton Wood , who was mounted on a dark brown horse with a star on his forehead, about thirteen or fourteen hands high; he presented a pistol and said we must deliver our money, or we should have that in us; he put his pistol into the coach, it came over the child's forehead; I gave him a guinea and six or seven shillings; I did not know then that I had a guinea in that pocket, but I missed it when we came to breakfast: I saw another man, who was taller than Wood, standing on the off side of Wood; he was mounted on an iron grey horse: just as they attacked the coach, the moon went into a cloud; they left us, and looked at the money that I and two or three more of the passengers had given, and then came back and said that would not do for them; a gentleman gave them a guinea and a half for fear of mischief by the pistol: the moon then came out of the cloud, and I saw their faces perfectly; I can speak with certainty to Burton Wood , the short man. On the 12th or 13th of October, as I was crossing the way to my own door, I saw the prisoners go past; I told a neighbour I believed they were the men that robbed the Gosport coach: I had no thought of taking them, but it was talked of in the town, and I was sent for by the justice and town clerk, who asked me if I thought I could pick them out if I saw them at a public house? I said, yes. A constable took me to a public house where they were, and I picked them out; I described the horses they rode when they robbed the coach: I was then taken over to Portsmouth to the Fighting Cocks, where they had put their horses up, and saw a small brown horse with a star in his forehead, and an iron grey, which answered the description; and I
On her Cross Examination she said, That there were six passengers in the coach, but that only four were robbed; that she was the first that delivered her money, and that she was a good deal frightened; that she delivered her money to the little man, Burton Wood , who was on the little brown horse; that Wood was the man that came up to the side of the coach and bid them deliver their money; that she saw another man on an iron grey horse, and that the head of his horse just touched the tail of Wood's horse; that after they had robbed the coach, they turned towards Brentford; that she could not so well observe Wood's face when he turned to go towards Brentford, as when he attacked the coach the second time; because at that time the moon came out of the cloud; that the witness's name in the commitment being put Elizabeth Pollexfen , otherwise Davidson, was owing to her having married a man, whom it is since discovered had another wife living at the time; that she would not say she could swear positively to the horses.
Being asked by the Court which she was most certain to, the men or the horses, she said the men; that she should have been certain if she had never seen the horses, but that she was more confirmed when she did see the horses.
I am hostler at the Fighting Cocks, Portsmouth. The prisoners came to our house, about twelve o'clock, I don't remember the day, they lay at our house that night, and the next day went over to Gosport, where they were taken; after that the people came over to see the horses: the prisoners came with another gentleman on foot and led their horses, the tall man's horse was a dark brown with a star in his forehead, and one of the other two was on an iron grey: Mrs. Davidson came over to look at the horses; the prisoners were then in Gosport gaol; the horses she came to look at were brought to our house by the prisoners.
I am a constable at Gosport: I apprehended the prisoners on the information of the prosecutrix: I found nothing upon them; they were put in Bridewell; I heard they had some horses at the Fighting Cocks at Portsmouth, and I went to see if there was any luggage.
When we were taken up, I asked if there was any body else in the coach where the lady was robbed? they said yes; three persons came and swore that we were not the men; a man that rode behind the coach came and swore we were not the men; the justice said we might be discharged, but the town clerk said we should be committed for further examination: the keeper of Bridewell went over with the prosecutrix to Portsmouth; and when he came back, he said she had swore to the horses, and must swear to us; and then the justice ordered us to be detained.
Q. to the Prosecutrix. What became of the prisoners while you went to look at the horses? - They were in Bridewell; when I returned to the justice's the prisoners were not at the justice's; they were never discharged.
I never saw the woman before in my life.
FOR THE PRISONERS.
I lived almost two years with Mrs. Davidson; I left her about four months ago; I live at the sign of the Isle of White-hoy, at Portsmouth-point,
Do you remember hearing Mrs. Davidson say any thing of her being robbed? - Yes; about the 14th of May, I believe it was, she said that near Turnham Green some highwaymen, stopped the coach and robbed her of her money; that when they were robbing her, the child slipped out of her lap, and endeavouring to recover it, she laid hold of the man's hand that was robbing the coach, that it was very soft, and that he had a pistol in his hand; but as to any remarks, it was not light enough, and she was too frightened to make any.
On his Cross Examination he said, He never saw the prisoners till the Friday night before, when he came to town; that he received a subpoena from one Conner, and a letter to take to the prisoners in Newgate.
I am a slater; I was at Gosport when the prisoners were examined: the prosecutrix said before she went in, that she was sorry she had said they were like the people, that she could not swear to them.
On his Cross Examination he said, that the prosecutrix said this at the door of Bridewell: that there were many people present: that he had seen the prisoners before, and believed the little man's name was Burton Wood : that he did not know whether they knew his name: that he did not tell it them: that the reason of his coming as a witness was, he met one Quainton, an attorney, the day before, who asked him if he was not at Gosport when the prisoners were taken up: that he had never seen the prisoner from the time they were in Gosport gaol to that moment: that the reason as he supposed of Quainton's asking him that question was, because he had mentioned it in company at one Purser's an officer, and he might hear of it that way: that he met Quainton in the Old Bailey, and told him he heard the woman declare she could not swear positively to the prisoners: that he saw them the day before they were taken, and knew them by sight: that he had seen Wood in London before: that he had seen the other before, but had never heard his name mentioned, and could swear at that time that he did not know his name: that he described him to Quainton as a short thick man that was with Burton Wood , when he asked him if he knew Burton Wood .
- SMITH sworn.
I live on the Surry side of Black Friars Bridge; my husband keeps livery stables; the prisoners had of us, the one a brown horse, the other a spotted mare, when they went to Portsmouth.
A WITNESS sworn.
I am hostler at the Fighting Cocks at Portsmouth: there were three horses put up at our house, one a spotted mare, an iron grey, and a brown horse, with a star in his forehead; the horses were brought to us by the boatman.
- SMITH sworn again.
I was in the yard when my husband let the horses; he is sick, and cannot attend: we bought the brown horse on the 24th of May of one Mr. Hardwicke.
Did he let out horses? - No; he had had it long before; my husband broke it when it was a poney.
Whether it was let out to any body on the 12th of May? - No; it stood at livery at our stables; it was never let out while it was his: the spotted mare we bought of one Mr. Bishop in July; I know nothing of the grey horse.
When did you let the grey horse? - The sixth of October, for a week or eight days; it was to go to Wey-hill Fair.
Court. Can you speak positively, that the brown horse was not let out on the 12th of May? - I am sure it was not let out; he never let his horses out.
Was it ever out of the stables in the month of May? - No, to the best of my knowledge; I keep the book, and know when the horses are out and in.
I am servant to Mr. Smith; I have taken care of this brown horse ever since the beginning of May: it was Mr. Hardwicke's; he never lent it out, nor trusted any body to ride it but my master; he would not let even the hostler ride it: the grey mare did not belong to us, I know nothing at all about it.
Q. To the Prosecutrix from Prisoner's Counsel.
What coloured clothes had he on when he was taken? - Black, I believe too.
I am a broker in George-street, St. George's fields: I know both the prisoners; Wood was a Marshalsea-court officer; I have known him from a child; his father died not a great while ago: I saw him in mourning some time in May; I asked him who he was in mourning for? he said his father: he used to wear light clothes before he was in mourning; he always bore a good character; I should not think he would go upon the highway. I have known Meeken sixteen or seventeen years; he always bore a good character; he is a handkerchief-maker ,
I am a shoe-maker. I have known Meeken from a child, he always behaved very well; I worked for him.
JAMES COOPER sworn.
I am a butcher in the Borough; I know both the prisoners: Wood was a butcher ; I have known him fourteen or fifteen years; he always bore an honest character: Meeken is a handkerchief-maker; I never heard any thing bad of him.
WOOD GUILTY . Death .
MEEKEN NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the London Jury.
75. MARTHA CLUES was indicted for stealing ten ounces of Italian raw silk, value ten shillings , the property of Francis Clarke the elder , Francis Clarke the younger , and John Clarke , October the 27th .
76. GEORGE HEDGE was indicted for breaking and entering the dwelling house of Samuel King on the 9th of April , about the hour of two in the night, and stealing a small copper, value ten shillings, twenty-four pound weight of lead, two shillings, an iron door threepence, three iron bars, three-pence, four live ducks, four shillings, a wooden tub, one shilling, and a tin six-quart pot, one shilling, the property of the said Samuel King , in his dwelling-house .
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
79, 80, 81, 82. JOHN WEST , THOMAS WEST , WILLIAM WEST , and SARAH WEST were indicted, the first two for stealing a weather sheep, value thirty shillings , the property of John Stevens , and the other two for receiving the same, knowing it to have been stolen , November the 30th .
ALL FOUR NOT GUILTY .
83, 84. THOMAS VALENTINE and JOSEPH GREVES were indicted, the first for stealing a feather bed, a bolster, a pair of linen sheets, a linen quilt, a tea kettle, and a looking-glass, the property of Rebecca Clarey , the said goods being in a certain lodging-room, let by contract by the said Rebecca to the said Thomas , and the other for receiving the above goods, knowing them to have been stolen .
NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
86. WILLIAM WHEELER was indicted for feloniously being found at large in this kingdom (to wit, in the city of London) before the expiration of the term for which he had received sentence to be transported , October the 31st .
I prosecuted the prisoner for robbing ofWilliam Wheeler .
I know the prisoner to be the person that was transported; I was in court at the time he received sentence.
- EVANS sworn.
I attended the trial; I am sorry the prisoner is the man.
I took the prisoner by the information of Wilkinson, at the Dolphin, in Darkhouse-lane, on the 31st of October; he was then at large.
I was in America last February; they insisted at Virginia upon my taking up arms against the Regulars at Boston; I told them I would not fight against my king and country; they said what was the reason I would not, as they had dealt so hard with me, as to send me to that part of the country as a slave? I said I did not think I was hard done by; they insisted upon it I should fight, and provided me arms, and put on me a coat with Death or Liberty upon one side of it: as we were on a march I made my escape from them to a place called Norfolk, in Virginia; when I had settled there they insisted upon it I should fight: I made my escape from thence to a sea port town and took shipping and came to London: I had leave to come on shore, and as I was going to return from Darkhouse-lane I was taken.
GUILTY . Death .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
87. MOSES LEVY was indicted for breaking and entering the dwelling house of Josiah Harrop , on the 5th of November, about the hour of seven in the night, and stealing two linen sheets, value twenty shillings, and four linen shirts, value forty shillings, the property of Josiah Harrop ; and three linen shirts, value twenty shillings, the property of James Sbright , in the dwelling house of the said Josiah .
My house is in George-yard, Lombard-street . Upon Sunday the 5th of November my servants came to me in the country, and told me my house in town was broke open; I came to town the same night and found the chest of drawers broke open: I obtained a search warrant, and at the prisoner's house in Houndsditch I found four of my shirts, three of my servant s, and a pair of sheets; I cannot swear to the sheets: the prisoner did not choose at first to let us in; he said he had not the key, but found it afterwards, and we went in and found the things.
Mrs. HARROP sworn.
The sheets are my husband's: I was present when they were found in the prisoner's apartment; he said he bought them of two men: that if we had been there an hour sooner we should have seen them, and he could produce them in a day or two.
My master's house was broke open upon the 5th of November: a pane of glass was taken out of the garret window; the padlock to the bar of the window was broke and the bar taken out; and the window opened: there was a great quantity of things taken away: I saw the mark of dirty feet at the window where they came in. I saw the window safe at twelve at noon: I went up stairs in the evening for a book, and found the house in great disorder.
I saw the garret window fast at four in the afternoon: at seven we found the window broke open: the next is an empty house, the roof of that house communicates with Mr. Harrop's, so that there is a passage from the one to the other by the gutter.
Three of the shirts are my property.
I bought the goods of Esther Moses and her daughter; they were tried on Saturday for stealing them, and I for receiving them; and we were all acquitted: I was never charged with having stole the goods.
FOR THE PRISONER.
am a hatter in Shoemaker-row, Aldgate:
Henry Josephs deposed, that he met Esther Moses in Petticoat-lane; that she offered to sell him seven shirts and a pair of sheets, and said he should have them reasonably; that three of them were new and four old; and that he believed the shirts produced to be the same, from the shortness of them; that as he did not like them he did not ask her how she came by them.
Isaac Bochero deposed, that he went to the prisoner's house on the 7th of November; that he was not at home; that he sat down, and as he was waiting for him, Esther Moses and her daughter came in with a bundle, and told Mrs. Levy they had a bargain for her husband; that they opened the bundle, which contained seven shirts, some old and some new; that they were short, but was not positive the shirts produced were them; that he left the women there; that knowing Esther Moses to be a bad woman, he gave information of it to Payne.
Lyon Levy deposed, that he went to the prisoner's house on the 7th at about half after twelve o'clock; that he saw Esther Moses and Rebecca Moses there with the linen produced, as he believed, before them on the table; and were shewing it to the prisoner; and that he saw him give three guineas and a half for them.
Levy Abraham deposed, that he lived opposite the prisoner's in Woolpack-alley; that as he sat at his window he saw the women in the prisoner's room shewing him some shirts; that he went over and asked him how much he was going to give for them, and he said three guineas and a half; that he said he thought it was too much for them, but that he saw him pay that money for them.
NOT GUILTY of breaking and entering the dwelling house, but GUILTY of stealing the goods to the value of thirty-nine shillings . T .
88. SUSANNAH, the wife of John Fenno , was indicted for stealing four linen shirts, value four shillings, two linen gowns, value four shillings, and a pair of womens stays, value ten shillings, the property of William Stone ; and a bank note of 10 l. the property of the said William , against the statute, &c. November 22d .
NOT GUILTY .
89. JAMES HAWKINS was indicted for stealing a bank note, value 10 l. the property of Robert Tatum , in the dwelling house of Andrew Wallace , the sum of 10 l. secured thereby being then due and unsatisfied to the proprietor thereof , against the statute, July 4th .
NOT GUILTY .
I was walking by the gentleman and happened to push against him, he laid hold of me and said I had his handkerchief.
GUILTY . W .
SARAH, the wife of THOMAS GREEN , alias SMART , was indicted for that he feloniously, without the consent or privity of the governor or keeper or underkeeper of the gaol or house of correction at Clerkenwell, did convey and cause to be conveyed to Thomas Green , alias Smart, two spring saws, and a woman's dress, consisting of one cap, one handkerchief, one pair of stays, one gown, two petticoats, one apron, and one woman's hat and cloak; the same being proper instruments and a proper disguise to facilitate the escape of prisoners, and the same did deliver and cause to be delivered to the said Thomas, he then being a prisoner in the said gaol or house of correction, and charged upon oath with feloniously coining and counterfeiting the silver monies of this realm, called half crowns, shillings, and six pences; with intent to aid and assist the said Thomas to escape from and out of the said gaol or house of correction; and did by the means aforesaid aid and assist the said Thomas to escape , &c. against the statute, &c. November 19th .
NOT GUILTY .
92, 93, 94. MARY STEVENS , ELIZABETH DAVIS , and MARTHA INGLESTON were indicted for stealing a worsted purse, value two pence, and three guineas and four half guineas in money numbered , the property of John Heathcote , October 21st .
On the 21st of October, about half after eleven o'clock, as I was coming along the Old Bailey, at the top of Fleet-lane, Stevens and Davis spoke to me, I cannot tell what they said, I shoved them from me: I went down the lane to the Elephant and Castle to speak to a young man; Stevens and Davis came into the house; I called for a glass of gin: Stevens and Davis immediately said that they wanted a glass of gin, and Stevens blasted my eyes if she would not have a glass at my expence; I called for a glass; I condescended to pay for the three glasses; they went out before me: I came down the street slowly, and Stevens put her hand upon my collar and pulled me upon a door cell; the door was shut and a candle immediately produced at the stairs, and I was told that was the way: I condescended to go up stairs; I then said I would have nothing to do with them, and desired them to let me go; Stevens said she would be d - d if I should go out of the room without I gave her a shilling; I condescended to give her a shilling; some shrub was produced, and they wanted me to drink, I would not; they then said I should have connexion with them if I would not drink; I said I was a man that had a family, and desired to go about my business; Stevens said I should not go without I would give her another shilling; I went to the door, and Stevens put her hand immediately to my throat, and said,
"blast your bloody eyes, if
"you make a noise or stir, I will cut your
"bloody soul out;" Davis then took me by the head and held it back, and said to Stevens,
"D - n your eyes, go it then:" I saw Stevens pull my purse out of my pocket with the money in it; I laid hold of her wrist, and said
"you have got my purse;" she blasted my bloody eyes, and said, "what purse?" I said, my purse, and I should be ruined; one of them called Jem! Jem! and the prisoner, Ingleston, came up, and the candle was put out; I saw the purse in Stevens' hand; I insisted upon having my purse again, and she pretended to faint upon the bed, and called for some water; I said that would not do for me, I had lost my property, and should be ruined: I got to the stairs, and then the candle was blown out again, and I received a blow upon my head, I thought with more than a fist; I got to the door and called the watch, and gave charge of the prisoners: I never found any of my money again.
The prosecutor asked us if we would drink any thing; we went and called for a quartern of gin; he changed half a crown and paid for it; we wished him a good night, and went away; he came after us and came up stairs, and asked what we would drink; I said I did not want any thing, and then he sent me for a quartern of shrub; then he wanted to be free with Stevens; she resisted him, and went in sits on the bed; and when he found he could not get his ends of her, he said we had taken his money.
I happened to be in the house at the same time; I went to see one Mr. Hill, who was bad in the house: I heard a noise in the house; he desired me to go and see what was the matter; I came to the door and saw them coming out of the room, and lighted them down stairs, and the wind blew the candle out.
Jury to the Prosecutor. Was you in a coach with two women before? - It is false, I never was.
STEVENS GUILTY . T .
DAVIS GUILTY . T .
INGLESTON NOT GUILTY .
Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.
95, 96, 97, 98. ANN HANBURY , CATHARINE HENRY , JAMES WOOD , and SARAH MASON were indicted, for that they not being persons employed in or for the Mint or Mints, in the Tower of London, &c. nor being authorized by the Lord High Treasurer, did feloniously and traiterously make and assist in making a mould of sand, in and upon which was made and impressed the figure, resemblance, and similitude of the head side of the lawful silver coin of this realm called shillings, against the duty of their allegiance, and against the statute , &c.
2d Count. Laying it to be the figure, &c. of one of the sides of the lawful silver coin called shillings.
3d Count. For having in their custody and possession a mould made of sand, upon which was impressed, &c. of the head side of the lawful coin of this kingdom called shillings, without any lawful authority or sufficient excuse for that purpose, against their allegiance, &c. 28th October .
ALL FOUR NOT GUILTY .
They were a second time indicted for feloniously and traiterously forging, counterfeiting, and coining a piece of false, feigned, and counterfeit money and coin, to the likeness and similitude of the silver coin of this realm called a shilling, against their allegiance , and against the statute, &c. October 28th .
ALL FOUR NOT GUILTY .
2d Count. For coining and counterfeiting a piece of false, feigned, and counterfeit copper money, to the likeness and similitude of the current copper money of this realm called a halfpenny, against the statute, &c.
3d Count. For coining a farthing as in the first Count.
4th Count. For coining a piece of counterfeit money, to the likeness of a farthing, as in the second Count.
BOTH NOT GUILTY .
NOT GUILTY .
102. MARY the wife of DANIEL KEITH was indicted for stealing a pair of silver tea-tongs, value 5 s. two silver tea spoons, 3 s. a linen bed-quilt, 2 s. three woollen blankets, 3 s. a pair of linen sheets, 5 s. a pewter dish, 2 s. a looking-glass, 2 s. a blunderbuss, 5 s. a copper saucepan, 5 s. and three green harateen curtains, 5 s. the property of Ann Harbourne , being in a lodging room, let by the said Ann to the said Mary , November 14th .
I live in Great Shire-lane, Temple-bar : I let a two-pair of stairs room furnished to the prisoner on the 14th November; she was to pay five shillings a week: the things mentioned in the indictment (repeating them) were all in the room when I let it to her; the blunderbuss was left over the mantle-piece; all the things mentioned in the indictment were taken away: I have had some of them again; they were brought to the justice's.
I pawned them because I was in distress; I intended to fetch them out again.
GUILTY . T .
103. WILLIAM BAKER was indicted for stealing a linen ruffled shirt, value 2 s. a pair of black worsted stockings, 6 d. and 6 s. in money numbered, the property of John Leopold Gosler ; a pair of women's linen pockets, 4 d. a pair of woman's stays, 5 s. a linen shift, 1 s. and two children's linen pin-cloths, 1 s. the property of John Henry Belefelt ; a silk handkerchief, 1 s. a pair of stone sleeve-buttons set in silver, 1 s. and two pair of woman's shift sleeves, 4 s. the property of Elizabeth Long , spinster , November the 2d .
The prisoner was my apprentice ; I am a ropemaker , I lost several things in the room the prisoner slept in; he acknowledged he had taken them.
- WHITE sworn.
My husband keeps a musick shop in Oxford Road; he lives in the same house; he lost several things at different times.
I lost a handkerchief and a pair of shift sleeves, which the boy (the prisoner) said he had taken; that he sold the handkerchief for a penny in Rag-fair, and the shift sleeves for three halfpence.
Prosecutor. He confessed it too before the justice.
The prisoner said nothing in his defence.
I am the prisoner's brother; the confession was extorted from him by threats; they threatened to beat him if he did not confess.
GUILTY . W .
NOT GUILTY .
105, 106. SARAH REYNOLDS , spinster , and ELIZABETH, the wife of DAVID VALE , were indicted, the first for the wilful murder of her male bastard child, and the other for aiding and abetting her in the committing the said murder .
My husband keeps the Temple coffee-house ; the prisoner Vale was our servant ; we hired her on the 15th of September from the Buffalo tavern: about ten days after she came into my service she brought Sarah Reynolds to my house and called her sister; they told me Sarah Reynolds was going to leave her place, Mr. Walker's, the White Hart, in Holborn: about ten days after that Reynolds came to my house from Mr. Walker's; Vale told me Reynolds had not got a lodging; I said she might stay a few days in my house, till she could get her a place; accordingly she was at our house for about a fortnight. Upon the 20th of October a gentleman that lodged at my house said, you must part with one of your maids soon, for she looks very big; I had told Sarah Reynolds before that she looked very big: the next morning I sent for Vale into my room, and told her that it had been taken notice of in the house that she appeared to be with child, and she must not stay longer than the Monday morning, but must get her a lodging, for I believed she was with child: Vale said she had talked to her about it, and that it was not so; that Reynolds had not been well for a twelvemonth; that she had catched cold, which was the reason of her appearing so big; I told her I believed she was with child: on Sunday morning my maid came up to me and told me that Sarah Reynolds was not well, and spoke of complaints she had common to women: I desired my maid not to talk to her very severely upon the matter, for I could not let her stay longer than the next morning; I went down into the kitchen to do my business between twelve and one, and staid till four till the business was over; during the time I was there, Sarah Reynolds appeared very ill, and went backwards very often; I followed her once into the yard, and asked what was the matter with her; I laid my hand upon her stomach, and said I fear you are with child: she said it was no such thing, that she was not well, and if I would give her leave to lie down after dinner she should be better; I came upSarah Reynolds was up stairs very ill; I went up stairs about six o'clock, Sarah Reynolds was then sitting up in bed holding her stomach, Vale was standing at the foot of the bed; I begged of Reynolds to tell me what was the matter, I told her I would be her friend, and begg'd her not to bring shame upon my house and distress upon herself; she said people had been plaguing her with knocking at the door; she told me there was nothing at all the matter with her, and if it would give me any satisfaction, she would go out of my house immediately: I asked her where she was going to, she said she would go to her sister's at Mary-le-bon, for she had no other friend: I asked her if she had any money; she said she had not, I gave her a crown; then she desired me to go down and send for a coach, and not let any body be at the bottom of the stairs when she came down: I sent for a coach: Vale came down into the kitchen for a hat for her; in a little more than a quarter of an hour Reynolds came down with a bundle under her left arm, covered with her cloak: I forgot to mention one thing; when I was in the room with her she desired Elizabeth Vale to look up her things, and give her the bundle she knew of, and to get her a shift; she said she must take that bundle; Reynolds came down with the bundle under her left arm, covered with her cloak; my maid came down before her and asked me if she might go with her; I said yes, she might, as the woman was not well: they went away in the coach together: I have a niece that lives with me, Ann Tristram , I asked her if ever she had been with her mother when she was in labour? she said she had; then I desired her to go up stairs and search about the room to see what was there; she came down and said the bed was in a bad condition, and brought a knife that she found under the bolster, but there was no appearance of any thing upon the knife; then the midwife, Mrs. Clarke, came in, I begged her to go up with my niece; they went up; in about three quarters of an hour Vale returned: I told her there must certainly have been a delivery of a child, from what I had heard above stairs; and if she (Vale) did not confess she would certainly be hanged; she answered it is all over: I asked her where is the child; she gave an account that they went to Broad-street, Mary-le-bon, and Sarah Reynolds gave her the bundle; that Reynolds told her she was six months and a fortnight gone with child, and that the lump of flesh was in that bundle; they got out of a coach and went to a gully-hole near Mary-le-bon; that there Reynolds pointed out a place for her to throw the bundle in: I asked Mrs. Clarke how I should proceed: I said I would go to the place where the bundle was thrown in: I sent immediately for a coach. Mrs. Clarke and Vale and I went to the top of Broad-street; then Mrs. Clarke and Vale got out of the coach; but I was so affected with the affair, I did not chuse to go; it was about nine o'clock; they came again with the bundle; we saw a public house open, we went into it: Mrs. Clarke said we will open the bundle now; but I said we will not bring any one into trouble here, as the maid said Sarah Reynolds was not far off: we went into High-street, Mary-le-bon, where we found Sarah Reynolds in bed at her sister's; Mrs. Clarke opened the bundle there, and there was a fine male child, full grown, having hair and nails; and there was a blue and white linen handkerchief tied about its neck; the tightness of the handkerchief had forced the tongue half out of its mouth: the sister of Sarah Reynolds , with the surprize of this, fell into fits; we left the child in the room, and went over the way to the Black Horse, and asked the man to get us a constable; which he did: I related the whole affair to the constable; he went and looked at the child and mother; he sent the child to the workhouse, and asked the midwife if it was safe to remove the mother; she said yes; he sent her to the Middlesex Hospital: I delivered up my maid Elizabeth Vale into his custody.
Are you a married woman and the mother of children? - I am.
Was the child come to its full growth? - Yes: it was Vale's handkerchief that was about its neck; it was the half of a large handkerchief, the other half was about Reynolds's neck.
CATHARINE CLARKE sworn.
I am a midwife; I was sent for by Mrs. Woodhouse: I went up stairs with her niece, I saw the appearance of a woman's having been delivered or miscarried in the bed: a knife was found under the pillow, but there were no marks about that knife: I came down and found Vale with her (it was on a Sunday); I asked the maid how did you manage this? why said she it is all over and the child is dead; she said Sarah Reynolds told her she had gone only six months and a fortnight; I asked her where Sarah Reynolds and the child were; she said in Broad-street: Mrs. Woodhouse was in a great flurry; I bid her be quiet, for that the child might be six months and a fortnight only, and be born dead; and I said to the maid, could I or some midwife see the child, for that might satisfy us all; I asked whether the child was with her sister; she said yes: then Mrs. Woodhouse insisted upon going directly, tho' it was late at night, for she was very uneasy about it: I asked Vale if she was sure we could see the child if we went, as her mistress seemed to be in such great confusion? Vale said she would tell the whole truth; that they had thrown the child into a ditch or gully-hole by Broad-street, Mary-le-bon; that Sarah Reynolds had shewn her the place: I asked her who threw it in? she said I did, but I never saw what was in the bundle; she said several times over she never did see the contents of that bundle, though she by the direction of Reynolds threw it into the gully-hole: we called a coach directly and we all went into it; Vale said she could tell the very spot where she threw it in: we drove to the top of Broad-street; Vale and I got out and left Mrs. Woodhouse in the coach; I said we will go to the place and see if there is any likelihood of getting it up, for it was very dark, in order (as I thought it might be but six months and a fortnight) to satisfy her mistress and the girl, as she seemed in great agitations: when I came to the place, Betty Vale said, this is the very place: the bank was not perpendicular, but sloping, and hearing a great current of water run upon the other side, I said, Betty, did you hear it go into the water; she said no, I cannot say I did, but I heard it roll down lump, or to that purport: a man came and cried holloa, what have you lost there? in my flurry I did know what to say; I said the young woman has dropp'd a bundle in the ditch, and will give you a pot of beer if you can get it up: a light was fetched, the man went down in the ditch with the candle; he said, I think I see the bundle, but the candle went out; the man light it and came again; she said she thought she saw it: the man brought the bundle up in his hand to the edge of the ditch; I took it up and put it in Betty Vale 's apron; I gave the man a shilling, and we went away as fast as we could: Mrs. Woodhouse was come out of the coach, and met us as we were going toward the coach; we drove to a public house and went in there; then the coach took us up, and Betty Vale was desired to shew us where her sister was, which was up two-pair of stairs; where I opened the bundle, and there was a full grown child to all appearance.
In your judgment was it a child at its full time? - Yes, a male child; it had a coloured linen handkerchief tied round its neck very tight: I put my finger between and found it so tight that it seemed to be choaked; it was swelled about the throat and mouth with a bluish cast, and the tongue was forced a little out of the mouth by the tightness of the handkerchief.
According to your judgment did that appear to be the cause of the child's death? - Yes, it did.
Was there no defect about the child besides? - It seemed besides to have a little bruise about the throat.
But was there any defect in the child besides? - No.
Is it your opinion or not, that this child was born alive and destroyed by this handkerchief being tied so tight about its neck? - It is my opinion that it was born alive, and that the tying this handkerchief about its neck was the cause of its death: Elizabeth Vale expressed many times that she never knew what was in the bundle: Sarah Reynolds was in bed; her mistress talked to her, but she said nothing.
Upon Tuesday the 24th I was sent for by the coroner to the Black Horse in High-street, Mary-le-bon; where I saw the child with a handkerchief tied very tight about its neck; I untied the handkerchief; the child was really choaked by the tightness of the handkerchief;
I am niece to Mrs. Woodhouse. I was sent up to the two pair of stairs room, where Sarah Reynolds had been, to examine the bed and room; the bed was very bloody; I found a knife under the bolster, but there was no blood upon it.
I saw the handkerchief untied; it was tied two or three times exceedingly tight round the child's neck; the neck appeared creased with the tightness of the handkerchief, and the tongue was forced out of its mouth.
I did not kill it; I don't know whether it was born alive or dead.
I was at the other side of the bed putting my things on; I was not in the room when she was delivered: my master went up; when my master came down, he said she was very ill; I did not know what she ailed; I went up some time after to carry the china into the bar; she was sitting up when I went up; she desired me to bring her some warm small beer, I went down and got her some; she asked me to lend her a clean handkerchief to put on, and I lent her a handkerchief; how that handkerchief came about the child's neck I don't know; for I never saw the child till the midwife put it on her sister's table; she was delivered by herself; she is no relation, but she came to pay me some money; I thought they would think much of her coming, and that made her say she was a relation, and I did not contradict her.
FOR THE PRISONERS.
- BRADLEY sworn.
I live at No 24, Red-lion-alley, Cow-cross, Smithfield; my husband is an appraiser and auctioneer. Vale is a relation of my husband's; I have known her ten years; I never heard any thing amiss of her in my life; she behaved very well in all her places.
I am a brazier. I have known Elizabeth Vale from a child; she is a very industrious, hardworking, honest woman; I have been well acquainted with her twelve years; she is a good mother and a good servant: she has had four children, and one of them is now living.
I have known Vale three years: she is a very sober, honest, industrious woman; she was always a kind mother to her children; she has a fine girl now living.
I have known Vale between five and six years; she is a very honest, hard working woman; she was always good to her children.
I have known the prisoner between four and five years; she was a very honest, industrious woman, and very good to her children.
I have known her rather better than four years; she was a hard working, industrious woman, a good tempered woman, and a very good mother to her children.
Mrs. WOODHOUSE sworn.
She behaved very well in my service; she had lived with me about six weeks, and I had a very good character with her.
Was the bundle she came down with the same bundle that you found in the gully-hole? - It looked like an old petticoat upon the outside when she came down stairs.
REYNOLDS GUILTY . Death .
VALES NOT GUILTY .
REYNOLDS immediately received sentence, this being Monday, to be executed the Wednesday following, and her body to be afterwards dissected and anatomized.
Tried by the Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice ASTON.
I am servant to Mr. Ainge: the prisoner came to our house, and said he was come to
I am servant to Mr. Ainge: I went down into the kitchen, there I saw the prisoner; I asked him his business; he said he was come to white wash the kitchen; that one Mr. Mansel sent him; I said, I believed he was come on no good errand, and seized him: he got from me, and got into the area; there I seized him again, and the maid came down; I bid her call my master; and we got a constable and secured him, and found the things in his pocket.
Mr. Ainge deposed, that the spoons were his property.
I found the spoons in the area, and was bringing them to the maid.
GUILTY. 10 d. W .
108, 109. FRANCIS MOUZIN and JOHN KEYSER were indicted for stealing eighty yards of muslin, value 15 l. a linen bag, 6 d. two thousand white cornelian stones for seals, 400 l. a silver waiter, 5 l. a silver coffee-pot, 20 s. a silver soup-ladle, 10 s. a silver punch-ladle, 5 s. six silver tea spoons, 12 s. a pair of silver tea-tongs, 6 s. a silver milk-pot, 8 s. three pair of silver shoe-buckles set with stones, 30 s. another pair of silver shoe-buckles set with stones, 10 s. a tortoiseshell snuff box, inlaid with gold, 10 s. three carats weight of rubies, 40 s. a muslin handkerchief, 1 s. a shagreen box, 6 d. a chip box, 1 d. a square saphire stone, 40 s. two drops of doublet saphire stones, 4 l. a garnet doublet, 5 s. a ruby doublet, 20 s. two rough jacinth stones, 10 s. three carats weight of emeralds, 10 s. fifteen carats weight of diamonds for glaziers, 15 l. two bunches of pearls, 50 l. four seals set in gold, with antique diamonds, rubies, and other precious stones, 20 l. two other seals set in gold, 20 s. twenty carats weight of garnets, saphires, and amethists, 5 l. two pearls, 2 s. three pair of laced ruffles, 10 s. six gold rings, 20 s. fifty carats weight of amethists, 25 l. a gold trinket, 5 s. five carats weight of diamond powder, 5 l. four saphires, 40 s. four rubies, 40 s. nine onyx stones, 40 s. twelve silver buttons, 6 s. five hundred carats weight of rough rubies, 500 l. one hundred carats weight of cut rubies, 100 l. ten carats weight of saphires, 100 l. ten thousand jargon stones, 100 l. sixty carats weight of rough saphires, 60 l. two silver table spoons, 20 s. two grains weight of brilliant diamonds, 40 s. six ople stones, 5 s. ten carats weight of topaz's, 10 l. ten carats weight of rough jacinths, 5 l. six gold rings set with diamonds, 24 l. a gold ring set with mocoa stone, 10 s. a watch, with a gold enameled case, 10 l. a gold watch key, 5 s. a gold trinket, 5 s. a steal watch chain, 5 s. a linen handkerchief, 1 s. one hundred cornelian stones, 20 l. ten carats weight of cut jacinths, 5 l. two fancy diamond rings, 5 l. a watch in a Pinch-beck case, 40 s. and one hundred stones for seals, 10 l. the property of Joseph Dermas , in his dwelling-house , November 19th .
BOTH NOT GUILTY .
I am a pewterer; the prisoner was formerly a servant of Mr. Hall: on the 12th November he came for three water plates; he did not mention his master's name, but they were entered in the journal to him, and the prisoner signed it; he came again in a few days after, and I stopped him.
(The journal produced in Court with his name to the entry).
(Looks at the book) That is the prisoner's hand-writing; I have seen him write many times; he had been my servant; he left me in May; I did not send him for any plates in November.
Prosecutor. I should not have delivered them if he had not signed the journal.
I did it because I was in distress.
GUILTY . Imprisoned One Month .
111. THOMAS TROTMAN was indicted for obtaining sixteen shillings from John Scott , pawnbroker, by pretending his name was John Smith , and that he wanted to pledge a pair of silver buckles, whereas his name was not John Smith, nor were the buckles so pledged silver , November 29th .
NOT GUILTY .
The Sessions being ended, the Court proceeded to give judgment as follows:
Received Sentence of Death, twelve:
Saunders Alexander , Lyon Abrahams , William Wheeler , William Clarke , Charles Chapman , Burford Camper , John Davis , Burton Wood , George Lee , James Beaumont , Richard Baker , and John Radcliffe .
Baker and Radcliffe to be drawn upon a hurdle to the place of execution.
To be transported for seven years, twenty:
John Funnell , George Wallace , William Hall , John Smith , John Miller , Joseph Heath , Benjamin Perry , Mary Stevens , Elizabeth Davis , Moses Levy , John Smith , Samuel Smith , John Langford , James Harrison , Moses Planchen , Sarah Andrews , William Thomas Rod , David Campbell , Richard Notely , and Mary Keith .
*** The Trial of Mrs. RUDD was taken in Short-hand by JOSEPH GURNEY , Southampton Buildings, Chancery-lane; who has lately published (printed to bind up with the Sessions Paper) an Accurate Account of the Arguments of Counsel, with the Opinions at large of the Honourable Mr. Justice GOULD, Mr. Justice ASHHURST, and Mr. Baron HOTHAM , upon the Question, whether Margaret Caroline Rudd ought to be tried?
Sold by S. BLADON, Pater-noster-Row.
*** The Trials of Capt. ROCHE and Mrs. RUDD were taken in Short-hand by JOSEPH GURNEY , of Southampton Buildings, Chancery-lane; who has lately published ( printed to bind up with the Sessions Paper) an Account of the Arguments of Counsel, with the Opinions at large of the Judges upon Mrs. RUDD's CASE. - N. B. The above is the only full and accurate Account of the Arguments and the Opinion of the Court that has yet been made public. - Sold by S. BLADON, Pater-noster-Row.
*** The Trials of Capt. ROCHE and Mrs. RUDD were taken in Short-hand by. JOSEPH GURNEY , of Southampton Buildings, Chancery-lane; who has lately published (printed to bind up with the Sessions Paper) an Account of the Arguments of Counsel, with the Opinions at large of the Judges upon Mrs. RUDD's CASE. - N. B. The above is the only full and accurate Account of the Arguments and the Opinion of the Court that has yet been made public. - Sold by S. BLADON, Pater-noster-Row.