The Proceedings of the Old Bailey

 

774.   JOHN BUTCHER was indicted for stealing, on the 2nd of March, 2 waistcoats, value 16s., the goods of   Elias Moses and another.

MR. DOANE conducted the Prosecution.

  ISAAC MOSES . I am in partnership with my father, Elias Moses, we live in the Minories, and are slop-sellers. I have known the prisoner as a customer—we had dealings with him, and I had no doubt of his respectability till about a month since, when my suspicions were excited by something I had heard—on Monday, the 2nd of March, the prisoner came to our house in a chaise, about six o'clock—it was dark—he went up into the back ware house with me—he came for a waistcoat, which had been ordered on Friday by some person belonging to him—I told him it was ready—he then said, "I want some velveteen coatees"—I waited upon him—there was a boy, named Coleman, in the room, and he handed the coatees to me—the prisoner selected three of them—he then said, "You have some very nice, or very handsome, spring waistcoats, I will look at them, but I shall not be a buyer at the present time"—I showed them to him—he selected some, and they were put with the coatees in a place under the counter—he purchased those waistcoats and the coatees—he then remarked that he would take the goods with him—that was after they had been put into the receiving-place under the counter, and I supposed he had finished—I then placed them on the counter again—he then saw another waistcoat, which he said was a very nice one, and selected that—he then said, "No doubt you have more like them;" and I went to the glass-case at the end of the room to see whether I had—I turned round, and saw the prisoner had left the part where he had been standing, and seemed very much confused—he had his

hands down about his pockets—I then asked him whether he would walk up stairs to another room—he said, "No"—he went down, and I followed him—the bundle was left on the counter for his man to take down; but he went into another room down stairs to look at some hats—he said, "I want some hats, but I do not expect you have any which will suit me"—I said he had better look at them—from there he went into the front ware-house, and Mr. Fox was desired to fetch down the goods the prisoner had bought—I was agitated by my suspicion—Mr. Fox brought down the goods loose on his shoulder—they were put on the counter, and Fox entered them in the book—Fox then came down from the desk—I took his place to have the goods booked; and I took the opportunity of speaking to my clerk in a way that the prisoner should not hear, though he was just under the pulpit-desk—the prisoner appeared very much agitated as well as myself; and he looked at me very hard from the time of my coming down stairs—he then said, "I shall go to Christopher, and you can give the parcel to my lad in the gig at the door"—he then left—I sent Fox after him, who brought him back; and Fox said, "I have found this on Mr. Butcher," at the same time showing me a waistcoat which I had not shown to the prisoner—he said, "Good God!"—I made some remark, and I went into the counting-house with him and Fox—I then made some remark on the enormity of the case—I cannot express the words I used, and forget the answer he made—I then said, "Have you any more, Sir?"—he said, "No, I have not"—I said, "Will you allow me to feel?"—he said, "Certainly"—I then put my hand into his outside pocket, and drew out a dark waistcoat—those he had selected were light ones—I said, "Good God! Butcher, I never should have thought it"—he then, said, "Oh, Moses, pray do not go into the case," or words to that effect—he begged to see me in private—we went into a side passage adjoining the private house—he then told me he would make every restitution if I would forego, and not do any tiling in this case—he said he would deal with me and pay up if I would not do any thing—I sent for the policeman, who came into the counting-house with me—the prisoner was then in the warehouse; and before I could relate the case to the policeman, I saw a confusion, and it appeared that the prisoner had left the warehouse, and Mr. Fox also—the prisoner was pursued and taken.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. I think you said two or three times that the prisoner appeared confused? A. Yes, he did not appear as usual—I did not observe his eyes in particular, but his countenance altogether—he was perfectly sober, not at all the worse for liquor—he said he would make me any restitution—I did not mean to say that he said he would pay up—he did not owe me any thing—he said he would employ me, and give me all his custom, if I would forego and not do any thing in this case—I do not know whether I stated that before the Magistrate—what I said was taken down—I cannot say whether that circumstance was read over to me—I did not relate all the circumstances—I did not wish to make the case worse than it was, or as bad as it was—I did not wish to make the conversation with the prisoner worse, or more than I could help—I was sworn before the Lord Mayor to speak the whole truth, and nothing but the truth—I did not designedly suppress part of it—I did not think the conversation unimportant—I stated it to-day, because I thought it of more consequence to state the particulars here—what I there stated was the truth, but not every word that transpired—I stated the whole truth—I dare say 1 did state about the restitution, and about his employing

me, and giving me his custom—I did not tell the conversation that my traveller had, as I thought it was of no importance, before the Lord Mayor—I mean the report he brought from Brentford—the prisoner begged to see me privately—I do not know that I stated that before the Lord Mayor—I do not know whether these words were read over to me in my deposition; or that I mentioned that the prisoner said, "Oh Moses, pray do not go into this"—perhaps I did not—I did not think there was any occasion to say that he wished to see me in private, and that we went into the passage—I believe I did not state that I said, "Good God! Butcher, I should never have thought it"—it is most likely I did not.

Q. You say now, you said to him, "Good God! Butcher, I should never have thought it"—have you not told my friend you suspected him? A. When I almost knew it, I could not believe it—I saw the waistcoat in his pocket—I could not believe it was mine—he might have been to some other house and put them in I did not know—his pocket was open at the top—I saw a waistcoat in his pocket as he came down stairs—I could see the black and white back of the waistcoat distinctly—I knew it was the back of a waistcoat—I could not tell whether it was mine or not—I do not recollect whether I mentioned that before the Magistrate—I do not know whether I did or not—I do not know whether that was read over in my deposition—I was before the Magistrate on Tuesday morning last—this happened on Monday, but I do not recollect whether I told the Magistrate those words.

Q. You say when Fox returned with Mr. Butcher, he produced a waistcoat, which he said he found on Butcher, and Butcher said, "Good God!" and went into the counting-house—did you say that to the Magistrate? A. Yes, I expect I did—I believe I did—I cannot recollect every word that was read over to me—I expect that was read to me—I think I heard that—the book that these things were entered in is not here, nor are the articles he bought—I was agitated by my suspicion—that would not assist my memory, certainly—I do not know that I told the Magistrate I was agitated by my suspicions—I did not state that I went to the glass case, before the Magistrate—I said I went to the end of the room, which is where the glass case is situated.

Q. Have you ever told any body that if they would bring you 400l. by the next morning, you would not prosecute? A. No, Sir—I never have—I never told any woman so—I have never seen any woman upon the subject of money.

Q. Have you seen any woman upon the subject of this case? A. No—yes, yes—will you allow me?—it was the following morning after the robbery—money was not the subject of conversation—not a syllable passed my lips about 400l.—there was not any money mentioned at all—I went into a private room with her, at her request—she is the woman who lives with Mr. Butcher as his wife, though she is not his wife—I retired with her to the same room that Mr. Butcher had been in, on account of her feelings—I have heard since that she is not his wife—nothing passed from me on the subject of money—such a sum as 400l. was not mentioned by me—I am rather surprised you should ask me such a thing.

Q. Upon the sacred obligation of the oath you have taken, and as you hope for forgiveness hereafter, did you say any thing about money? A. I know what an oath is—I did not—I do not believe I said any thing about hats before the Magistrate—I thought I would relate the particulars here—I believe the prisoner is a man of property—he had dealt about three years with me, but I suppose he had not laid out more than 300l.

with me—I gave him credit—there was some money found on him, and some notes, but I was not there—my foreman said it was about 35l.—I do not know that I asked how much there was—I asked if it was Butcher's money—I saw it on the desk, or on a table, and the inspector was sitting by it, at the station—I did not touch it.

Q. Be so good as to give us your version about the woman? A. I was in the back warehouse—one of my young men came in, and said, "Mr. Moses, there is the young man in the gig that was here last night, and a female"—I said, "You had better deny me," and I was going up stairs, but she came in, following the young man, before I could get out of sight—she saw me, and said, "Where is Mr. Moses?"—I said my name was Moses—she then asked for my father—I said he was not at home, he does not live in London—she said, "It is a person with spectacles"—I said, "Then you must mean Moses and Levy, because that Mr. Moses wears spectacles"—she then said, "Oh, Mr. Moses," or to that effect, and took me into the side-room, as she was ashamed to be seen—she then said, "Good God! I have not slept all night; I have been either in hysterics or fits till five o'clock"—she said, "Dear Mr. Moses, pray do not appear against him," and she laid hold of my shoulder—after using many expressions, which I cannot recollect, she said, "Can I see Mrs. Moses, to work on her feelings?"—I told her she could not, as she was confined—she begged and prayed in that manner that I could not get away—she said, "Will you not appear? pray do not appear"—she said she would give half she possessed if I would not appear, and she broke a smelling-bottle in her reticule with her words and actions—she then turned out her reticule, and left the glass on the counter, and begged my pardon for doing so—she still begged and prayed of me not to appear—I told her if it had been his first offence I might have overlooked it, but I certainly should go on—she then said, "Where is Butcher?"—I told her I believed he was at the Compter, but I would inquire, for I did not know—she said, "Oh pray do not, for I am ashamed to be seen"—she then said her man would take her there—she then said, "I am ashamed to go through, is there any one there?"—I opened the door, Mr. Solomon was coming through, and I told him to go back—I then told her there was no one there but a boy, and she went out—that was all that passed, except that I said, I would consider of it—there was never any offer to compromise on either part, but she merely making the remark that she would give half she possessed—nothing was said about £100 a year.

Q. Upon the sacred obligation of your oath, did any thing pass at any time—at any place—or from any body—in your hearing, about £100 a year for four years? A. Certainly not—this is not the first I have heard of it—Mr. Hobler asked me whether I had offered to compromise it for £400—I denied it, and treated it with contempt, as I do the remarks that you are making—there was no offer to compromise on her part or mine—what passed with her was before the examination before the Magistrate—I do not recollect every word that passed with her—I mean nothing unfair against this prisoner—I heard the woman who called on me was not his wife.

MR. DOANE. Q. Do you believe he has a wife? A. Yes; she is living at Gravesend—I am quite sure I answered all the questions that were proposed to me before the Magistrate; which was sufficient to commit the prisoner.

COURT. Q. Did the Magistrate tell you to state what you had to say against the prisoner? A. Yes; to relate the circumstances.

  MICHAEL FOX . I am in the employ of Messrs. Moses. On the 2nd of March Mr. Butcher came there—I saw him come from the back warehouse—my employer desired me to fetch the goods which he had selected, for the purpose of being entered—I did so, and placed them on the counter in the front warehouse—they were there entered, and in the course of their being entered, Mr. Moses indicated by his countenance that there was something wrong relative to Mr. Butcher, and I noticed the prisoner—he said, "Put up these goods, and give them to my young man, who is about the door in the chaise"—he then went out—I was desired by my employer to follow him, which I did—I came up to him, and said, "Have you not, Sir, by some mistake or other, got into your possession some waistcoats that are not yours?"—he said, "Certainly not, it is impossible, I think, but I will try"—upon which he put his hand iuto his great-coat pocket, and drew out a waistcoat, which I immediately recognised as the property of my employer—I said, "Mr. Butcher, this is a serious thing, and a most unaccountable one to me"—he said, "I did not take it with a felonious intent"—I said, "Have you any more, Sir?"—he said, "Certainly not," and felt about his pockets—he said, "To convince you I had no felonious intention, I will go back with you to Mr. Moses"—we then returned together—Mr. Moses opened the warehouse door—the prisoner went in, and said, with considerable agitation, "Sir, I am ashamed to see you"—Mr. Moses was about to make an observation, and he said, "For goodness' sake do not stay here, let us go into the counting-house"—we then went into the counting-house—I presented the waistcoat which the prisoner had given to me when I questioned him—I showed it to Mr. Moses and said, "This waistcoat was produced by Mr. Butcher upon being questioned whether he had not concealed some about him"—Mr. Moses expressed himself very much surprised, and said, "Good God! Butcher, how is this? have you any more, Sir?"—he replied, "Certainly not"—the prosecutor then asked him to allow him to feel, and he felt in his great-coat pocket, and drew out another waistcoat—he said, "This is a serious thing; how in the world, Butcher, could you have done so?" or words to that effect—the prisoner replied, "For God's sake, Mr. Moses, do not take any notice of it, I will make any reparation or restitution you can desire"—several other things were then said, and the prosecutor left the counting-house, to consider what he should do—Mr. Butcher then said to me, "Mr. Fox, interest yourself for me—do all you possibly can—endeavour to prevail with Mr. Moses not to proceed with it, and gratitude will prompt me not to forget you"—I think I said, "How can I, Mr. Butcher, interest myself in a case like this?"—Mr. Moses returned to the counting-house, and the officer was sent for—Mr. Butcher saw him arrive, and he left the warehouse in haste, and ran when he got out—I had to run with all my might, shouting, "Stop thief," and he was taken.

Cross-examined. Q. Mr. Butcher had dealt with your master some time? A. About three years, I should think—to the amount of from 100l. to 200l. a year—I cannot tell whether it was more or less—I have looked at his last account since this transaction—I cannot recollect the date of it, but it is paid—when Mr. Moses left the counting-house he was gone ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—I do not know about his forgetting that circumstance—I do not forget it—I am his only foreman—the prisoner said, "Fox, interest yourself for me," &c.

Q. Of course you could not forget that? A. I do not think it has been out of my mind since—I do not recollect whether I said that before the Lord Mayor—the substance of what I said was taken down—I do not remember Mr. Hobler asking me if I had any thing to add, but I suggested additions which were willingly made—I think most likely there was nothing in my deposition of his saying that gratitude would prompt him never to forget me—it did not occur to my mind to have that added.

Q. Were you not sworn to tell the whole truth—all that passed? A. I should say, "Certainly not"—I have no recollection that the Lord Mayor told me to relate in the presence of the prisoner all that passed—It is possible I may be wrong—I think I did not tett the Lord Mayor that I was left with the prisoner alone—I do not remember stating that the prosecutor said, "This is a serious thing, Mr. Butcher; how in the world could you have done so?"—I think I said in substance that Batcher replied, "For God's sake, Mr. Moses, say nothing about it; I will make any restitution you can desire."

Q. Did you say the prosecutor indicated by his countenance, that there was something wrong with respect to Mr. Butcher—did you tell that to the Lord Mayor? A. Yes; I feel positive of it—I think It was not read over to me—I did not ask to have it added.

Q. Would two waistcoats make a large bulk? A. Not if they were closely tied up—I recollect Mr. Moses taking out the second waistcoat—I think it was in his great-coat pocket, but I was on his right hand side, and Mr. Moses on his left—I cannot tell exactly which pocket it was—the one he gave me was in his outside pocket—I walked by his side when be came back—I looked sharp after him—I did not ses any waistcoat in his pocket—I should say his pocket was open at the top, but I saw no waistcoat on the side I walked—the one the prisoner gave me was a dark waistcoat, a green ground—the one Moses took from him was a light one—I am sure I did not take the light one, and he the dark one—the light one was of the same kind and pattern which he had bought—he bought ten altogether, I believe—he is a pawnbroker, and has two establishments—he buys these things for sale of us—these two waistcoats were worth about 16s.—we should have sold them for 17s.—I think about 35l. was found on the prisoner when he was searched at the station-house—I was present—Mr. Moses came in about fifteen minutes—the money was counted, and I believe given to the prisoner.

Q. Did Butcher say, "It was quite an accident?"—I think he said, as near as possible, "It must be an accident"—he seemed to be agitated.

COURT. Q. You said, "He said he did not take it with a felonious intent;" was it at that time he said it must be an accident? A. Certainly; should say, that "It must be accident," was said first.

MR. CLARKSON. Q. Were not the expressions he used, "God bless me, it must be an accident?" A. I think they were—I will not swear he did not repeat that expression after he came into the room—I should say, he did not—the waistcoat found by Mr. Moses is of the same pattern as one of the ten he had purchased, although not one of them—I think I did not tell the Magistrate that the prisoner said, "Sir, I am ashamed to see you," but I will not be certain—I stated that he said, "For God's sake, don't stay here—let us go into the counting-house," or words to that effect.

Q. You have said, that you stated to Mr. Moses, "This is the waistcoat that Mr. Butcher produced, after asking him if he had not some concealed

about him"—had you asked him that? A. No, motives of delicacy prevented me—I should say, the phrase "concealed," was not used—I do not think I used the phrase "concealed" before the Magistrate—it was not read over to me, but the substance of what he read was true, and I thought that was sufficient—I should say, the prisoner had not been drinking—his countenance did not indicate that, but a perturbed state of feeling—he walked soberly, spoke soberly, and appeared to act soberly—I should be surprised if the policeman had said he had been drinking—the prisoner is reported to be a man of property—I saw a female, who came to Mr. Moses's after this transaction, but I was not present at any part of the conversation—the lady began in a very warm manner, the moment she saw Mr. Moses—I believe she came twice, but I do not think Mr. Moses saw her twice—if the prisoner had intended to escape, I believe his horse and gig were at the corner of Houndsditch.

  JAMES MARTIN (City police-constable No. 94.) I took the prisoner in charge, and have the property.

Cross-examined. Q. What time did you take him? A. About half-past six o'clock—he was agitated—he might have been drinking a little—I believe he had had some drink—he was very much agitated—I do not think it was altogether from liquor.

  ISAAC MOSES . These are my waistcoats. This dark one was on the shelf—it formed no part of the bulk on the counter, and was not removed by me—this light one might have been one of the lot which I showed him.

Prisoner's Defence. My Lord and Gentlemen—of this charge I am altogether and entirely innocent—I certainly had taken some liquor in the course of the day, which being with me not a customary thing, and not having taken dinner, it deprived me of that lewon which I possessed—I leave my case in your hands.

(David Nicholson, a builder, of Wandsworth; John Leathwaite, a newspaper agent, of Alderman bury; Thomas Yates, a butcher, Wandsworth; Myers Myers, hat manufacturer, Houndsditch; Thomas Marks, Memel-street, Old-street, undertaker; William Key, Isleworth, linen-draper; and William Barrett, of Plumber's-row, City-road, pawnbroker, gave the prisoner a good character.)

GUILTY . Aged 35.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury and Prosecutor

on account of his previous good character.— Confined Two Years.

Sixth Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.