Patric Mc Carty, Killing > murder, 22nd October 1760.

Reference Number: t17601022-17
Offence: Killing > murder
Verdict: Guilty
Punishment: Death > hanging in chains; Death > executed

307. (M.) Patric Mc Carty, otherwise Carty , was indicted; for that he, not having the fear of God before his eyes, but being moved by the instigation of the devil, on the 11th of Oct . on William Talbot , and the peace of our Lord the King, did make an assault, with a certain knife made of iron and steel, value 2 d. which he had and held in his right hand, William Talbot on the left side of the body, near the left breast, did willfully, and of malice aforethought, strike and stab. (the said William having no weapon drawn, nor having first struck him) giving to him the said William one mortal wound, depth six inches, breadth three quarters of an inch, by which mortal wound the said William Talbot did instantly die .

He stood likewise charg'd on the coroner's inquest for the said murder. *

Richard Faulkner . I knew William Talbot .

Q. What was he?

Faulkner. He was an officer belonging to the Marshalsea court .

Q. Did he belong to any other court?

Faulkner. He was also an officer at the palace court , I delivered to him a writ on the 11th of October, against Mc Carty, the prisoner at the bar.

Q. At what time of the day?

Faulkner. About nine in the morning.

Q. At whose suit was it?

Faulkner. It was at the suit of Nicholas Lenon , for 4 l and upwards.

Q. What kind of a writ was it?

Faulkner. It was a writ of execution.

Q. Where is it?

Faulkner. Thomas James has got it.

Cross Examination.

Q. Can you tell how the officers of the palace court are appointed?

Faulkner. No.

Q. How do you know he was an officer of that court?

Faulkner. Because I have seen him several times serve writs.

Q. Are you sure this was a writ of execution?

Faulkner I am very sure it was.

Q. Do you know any thing of any capias before that?

Faulkner. I do not.

Q. Look at this writ.

Faulkner. (he takes it in his hand) I deliver'd the old writ to Talbot, and he renewed it; this is not the writ I delivered to him.

Nicholas Lenon . I knew Talbot the officer.

Q. Look at this writ.

Lenon (he takes it in his hand) I know Talbot had this writ in his custody.

Q. How came he by it?

Lenon. I gave it him.

Q. When?

Lenon. On saturday was sevennight.

Q. What day of the month was that?

Lenon. I think the 11th.

Q. What time of the day?

Lenon. Between the hours of eight and ten in the morning.

Q. Who was this writ against?

Lenon. Against the prisoner Mc Carty.

Q. At whose suit?

Lenon. At my suit.

Cross Examination.

Q. How do you know that was the writ you gave him?

Lenon. I paid for the renewing of a writ that day.

Q. Did you read it over?

Lenon. I did.

Q. What was Talbot?

Lenon. He was on officer of the Marshalsea court.

Q. Are you sure of that?

Lenon. He had the reputation of being one.

Q. What was this writ for?

Lenon. It was to carry on a suit against the prisoner.

Dennis Commings . I keep the king's Head, at the corner of Prince's street, Drury-lane.

Q. Do you know what profession Talbot was of?

Commings. No, I did not, till after he came into my house; they came in, and call'd for a tankard of beer; I brought it.

Q. Did you hear any talk between him and the prisoner at the bar?

Commings. I did.

Q. What was it?

Commings. Mc Carty told him, if he would stay there five minutes he would come back and pay the money; or if he would go with him as far as Standup street, he would pay him. Talbot said, he might as well pay him then; they both went out together, and came back again.

Q. When they came back again, was there any dispute between them?

Commings. In about two minutes after they had left the house, there were four or five more laid hold of Mr. Mc Carty, and they came back again; they two, and three or four more, came into the tap room, and when they came by the bar, he desired them to loose him; and said, he would not be held by a parcel of Thieves, or to that purpose; he then walked up to the upper end of the room, and in the twinkling of an eye they all flew.

Q. What did they fly for?

Commings. I believe it was upon seeing a naked knife.

Q. Did you see the knife?

Commings. I Did.

Q. Did Talbot go with him to the upper end of the room?

Commings. I believe he did.

Q. Did you see the stroke?

Commings. No, I did not.

Q. Did you see Talbot after he was wounded?

Commings. I did.

Q. How long was it after they were gone to the upper end of the room, that he was wounded?

Commings. I believe it was in less than a minute after; they were all in the room at that time.

Q. Did any of the others follow them to the upper end of the room?

Commings. I don't know but some did.

Q. Did you see the knife before he was wounded, or after?

Commings. I believe he was wounded before I saw the knife.

Q. Did it appear bloody?

Commings. I can't tell whether it was or not.

Q. Did you see Mc Carty after that?

Commings. No.

Q. How long did the deceased live after you saw the knife?

Commings. I believe he lived about three minutes; he clapp'd his hand upon his side, and desired me to send for a surgeon; I believe he had receiv'd his death; he said, I believe I am done for, or something to that effect.

Q. Did he say by who?

Commings. No, he did not.

Q. What became of the other men after this?

Commings. They all ran out into the street, after Talbot was struck.

Cross Examination.

Q. How many had hold of the prisoner in the street?

Commings. I saw four or five had hold of him.

Q. Had Talbot hold on him?

Commings. I cannot say whether he had or not; I heard the prisoner ask, if they had any thing against him?

Q. Do you know the people that had hold of him?

Commings. I do some of them.

Basel Fielding Palmer. I saw William Talbot at four o'clock that afternoon at this evidence's house.

Q. What was Talbot?

Palmer. He was an officer of the King's Palace court.

Q. How long had he been an officer at that court.

Palmer. He had been for two or three years.

Q. Who was he in company with when you saw him?

Palmer. He was in company with the prisoner at the bar.

Q. How did they come in company?

Palmer. I can't tell that, I saw them at the King's head door, Prince's street, Drury lane. Talbot advanced some yards towards Drury lane to me, and told me, he had arrested the prisoner at the bar; and desired I would fetch all the officer; I could from the sun. I went and fetched Thomas James , William Shepherd , Peter King , and William Powell ; they went with me along Russel street to the King's head; we saw Mr. Mc

Carty at the King's head, Prince's street; then I went by Mc Carty; the deceased came to him, and leaned over his shoulder, and told Mr. Mc Carty, there was an execution against him; then they laid hold of Mr. Mc Carty's hands.

Q. When he put his hand upon Mc Carty's shoulder, where were they?

Palmer. They were in Prince's street, over against the scowerers, next door to the King's head. We came round, and Thomas James was going to search him, because he was a dangerous man, and had often threatened to kill the officers. In going to search him, Talbot said, do not search him, for he will pay me the debt and cost; it was not very much above 4 l. 4 s. they were afraid he had got pistols about him; they found nothing in searching his outside cloths; and as they were going down lower to search, Talbot desired them to desist, and not to trouble themselves more. Then they went in at the King's head; Mc Carty went in first, and Talbot after, and we after him.

Q. At which door did they go in at, it seems there are two?

Palmer. At the Drury lane door; Talbot and Mc Carty went to the farther end of the room where the dial is, facing Russel street; the prisoner ask'd how much the debt was, and put his hand towards his breeches; Talbot told him he could not tell, it was 4 l. and upwards, and was going to pull out his pocket book; at that time I had no apprehension of danger or mischief; the prisoner put his hand to his pocket; I saw him pull out a knife, and directly turn'd towards Talbot, with a spring, and plung'd it into Talbot's left breast; I saw the knife go in.

Q. Did Talbot do any thing?

Palmer. He attempted to guard his head, by holding his hand up before his head; the stroke came directly under his arm.

Q. Had Talbot any stick, or had he abused him?

Palmer. No, neither, but us'd all the mildest words in the world. (a cook's carving knife produced in court, the blade nine inches long, with a sharp point) This is the knife.

Q. Did Talbot say any thing?

Palmer. He said, O Lord, he has done for me, or something to that effect.

Q. How long did he live after this?

Palmer. He lived about two minutes after, as the landlord said, we went all out to cry murder.

Q. When did you see the prisoner afterwards?

Palmer. He came and stood at the door, with the naked knife in his hand, bloody.

Q. Which door?

Palmer. That in Princes's street; he stood at the door about a quarter of a minute, or half a minute, looking very full of revenge at the same time; then he walked very gently down the street; we call'd out murder; I walked down before him, calling murder; there was a soldier happened to come to our assistance; the soldier was at some trouble to get his sword out of his scabbord; then he took and cut a string that fastened it into the scabbord; he first stopped him in prince's street, then the prisoner went on; then the soldier stopped him at the corner of Vere street; I had a stick.

Q. Did the prisoner offer to run?

Palmer. No, he walked away with the knife in his hand, sometimes in the sheath, and then out again.

Q. Did not you offer to stop him?

Palmer. I struck at him several times; the soldier stopped him at a chandler's shop in Vere street; he did not think proper to cut him; the prisoner went two or three doors farther, and a man came out with a poker; I said, break his arm that has the knife in it; the man threatened to strike him with the poker; and another came and took the knife out of his hand, and held it up.

Q. What was his name?

Palmer. Jacob Plates ; then he was taken and carried before justice Fielding; I could not get near enough to hear what past there.

Q. Are you certain the prisoner stabb'd the deceased, in the manner you have mentioned?

Palmer. Upon my oath he did, and Talbot did not abuse, or strike him at all.

Q. Did you see the writ?

Palmer. I did afterwards.

Q. Where?

Palmer. In the hands of the landlord of the house, it was taken out of the deceased's pocket, Mr. Horsley and Mr. Webster.

Cross Examination.

Q. What are you?

Palmer. I am an assistant to the officer.

Q. Was you then to Talbot?

Palmer. No, I was not, I was coming by by chance; I have been an officer myself.

Q. Was the prisoner at the bar in custody with Talbot at this time?

Palmer. He was.

Q. How do you know that?

Palmer. I heard him ask Talbot how much the debt was; and Talbot said, 4 l. and upwards.

Q. Did you imagine then that the prisoner submitted to pay the money, and was going to pay it?

Palmer. Yes, I did.

Peter King . I was one of the persons that was fetch'd to the assistance of Talbot.

Q. Who went with you?

King. Mr. Shepherd, Thomas James , and William Powell ; when we came there, Talbot had the prisoner in his custody?

Q. Where were they, at the first of your seeing them?

King. They were talking together within a foot of the step of the King's-head door; the prisoner said, what do you all want? Talbot said, you know what I want, here is an execution, and show'd it him, afterwards he went into the room.

Q. Did the prisoner see Talbot show him the execution?

King. He did, if he did not shut his eyes; then he said, if he would go in at the Queen's-head, he would pay him the money.

Q. Did you hear him say so.

King. I heard him make use of them very words. Before they went into the room, we were for searching of him; I said, he has threatened the first officer that comes to arrest him, for he once wanted to shoot me; and said, he would make as many holes in me as were in a flute. Mr. Talbot said, Patt, will you pay the money; he said, yes, if you'll go into the house; then we all went in: there is a bar as you go into the room out of Drury-lane, Mc Carty went by that to the upper-end of the room, and said, how much is it, Talbot; Talbot said, upwards of 4 l. but I'll tell you the particulars; then Mc Carty said, he would pay him, and clapp'd his hand as though he was going to put it into his pocket, and brought a knife out, boo, said he. Talbot seeing the knife coming, whipp'd his right-hand up, and with the boo, he struck the knife in him. I saw the knife go in, and saw it come out again; Talbot fell on me, and clapp'd his hand on his shoulder, and said, Lord, he has done for me, he has kill'd me; I ran out of the house, so can't tell how long he liv'd.

Q. Had either of you sticks?

King. No, none of us had.

Q. Had either of you used him ill?

King. No.

Q. Did you see the writ?

King. I did, before Talbot went into the house; he show'd it him, (he takes the writ in his hand) this is the execution. I was apprehensive of danger, and went out of the house directly. The prisoner came out of the house into Prince's-street, and I went out of the door that goes into Drury-lane, calling out, murder, murder. I saw him at the door with a knife in his hand, and never attempted to run, but walk'd along, and said, it is a parcel of bailiffs and thieves, with the knife naked in his hand.

Q. How was he secured?

King. I can't say by whom he was secured; I saw him very attentive to the man with the poker, and a man took the knife out of his hand, and he was secured in Vere-street; I saw him taken, and went to Mr. Fielding's house with him; Mr. Fielding examined him, and ask'd him, how he could be guilty of such a crime; he said, if it was to do again, he would do it. Mr. Fielding ordered a person to go to see if Talbot was dead; he came and said, he was. I said to Mc Carty, you have made a pretty jobb of it; said he, I wish it had been you.

Q. Was Talbot a palace-court officer?

King. Yes, he was.

Thomas James . I was one of the persons that Palmer fetch'd to come to the King's-head, Drury-lane. I saw the prisoner at the bar come out of the door in Prince's-street, Talbot was with him; King and Powell were up first, they had hold of Mc Carty; Talbot saw us coming, then he stood at the front of him.

Q. Did you see the writ in any body's hand?

James. No, I did not; I heard Talbot say, come into the house and pay the money, it is only Lenon's execution; said Mc Carty, let me go into the house, and I'll pay you the money. I was going to search him, and said to Talbot, don't let him go into the house, I don't think it safe, and was going to search him; upon that Talbot said, desist, and laid hold of my arm, and said, let him alone, he is as naked as a child, he cannot hurt any body; we let him loose, and walk'd quietly into the room; Talbot and Mc Carty walk'd before us together to the farther end of the room, facing the window that looks

into Russel-street, their backs were towards us; I heard Mc Carty say, how much is the money; said the other, I'll tell you, (feeling for his pocket-book) it is upwards of 4 l. Mc Carty put his hand to his pocket, feeling for his money, as I thought, and he whipp'd out this knife (here produced) in his right-hand. Talbot being appriz'd by the sudden motion, whipp'd up his right-hand to defend his head; hoo, said Mc Carty, and I immediately saw the knife go into the deceased's body, and I saw the prisoner pull it out again; then he said, you thieves you, Powell and King ran out of Drury-lane door. I was in the room, and seeing the door open that goes into Prince's-street, and no body in the room but Mc Carty, the deceased and I, I thought I would keep far enough off him; there is a sort of a settle; Mc Carty look'd round, and seeing no body in the house but me, and I was about four yards from him, he made a motion like towards me; I went out into the street; he came to the door, and stood on the threshold p retty near half a minute; we alarm'd the neighbours; he walk'd down Prince's-street unconcern'd (I call'd murder) he had the knife bloody in his hand; he was taken in Vere-street, Clare-market.

Q. Was you before Mr. Fielding when he was there?

James. I was; I was the very person that charg'd him with the murder, and my information was drawn up, and before it was sign'd, I was desir'd to go and know if Mr. Talbot was dead, or no. I went to the King's-head, and there saw him all in a gore of blood, lying on his back dead. Then I went to the justice, and said, you may swear me now, for he is dead. Upon that I heard Mc Carty mutter with a low voice, by the Holy Ghost I wish it was you.

Q. Did you hear them words?

James. I heard them very words; then I was sworn, and signed my information.

William Powell . I saw Talbot and Mc Carty about the King's-head door in Prince's-street, talking together; when I came up, Talbot said to him, I have got an execution against you in the suit of Mr. Lenon.

Q. Did you see him produce the execution?

Powell. I did, but I can't swear to the identity of it now.

Q. Did he produce it in such a manner, that the prisoner might see it?

Powell. He did.

Q. What did the prisoner say, upon Talbot's producing it?

Powell. He said nothing; we were afraid he had instruments about him, as he had threatened him; we catch'd hold of him; upon which he said to Talbot, what is it; said Talbot, it is an execution; we were going to search him; said Talbot. desist, Patt will pay me the money; then the prisoner said, go into the house, and I will pay you the money; they went in at the Drury-lane door; I was behind Mr. James and Mr. Talbot, by the corner of the bar on the left hand; Mc Carty ask'd, how much the money was; Talbot said, it is better than 4 l. and put his hand to his right-hand pocket; Mc Carty put down his hand, as if in order to pay the money; he drew out a knife, (the same as here produced) Talbot held up his hand; hoo, said Mc Carty, and gave his hand a fling round, and I saw the knife go into the deceased's body.

Q. How long did Talbot live after this?

Powell. I can't tell that; he clapp'd his hand to the wound, and said, O Lord, he has done for me.

Q. Did you see him afterwards?

Powell. I saw him bleeding on the floor out of the mouth and the wound, then he was dead.

Q. Had he any stick in his hand?

Powell. No, he had not.

Q. Had there been any quarrel between them?

Powell. No, not as I know of.

Q. What became of the prisoner after he had wounded Talbot?

Powell. Then he walk'd gently out, and we call'd murder; and he was taken in Vere-street.

Q. Was you with him before justice Fielding?

Powell. I was; I heard him say he was very sorry for what he had done; but he had something else to think of, than to stand prattling there; they could hardly get him to the bar.

Philip Webster . I know Talbot; I saw him bleeding, but cannot tell whether he was dead or alive; I took this execution (here produc'd) at that time.

Q. When was that?

Webster. On the 11th of October instant, he was stabb'd.

Prisoner's Defence.

I don't know what defence to make; there were no body else but officers, and they all swear for one another; there were no body else there

but the landlord and a porter; these people pull'd me into the house in an outragious manner, and show'd me no writ. Call Richard Fox .

For the Prisoner.

Richard Fox . I was in at the King's head in Prince's-street; Talbot and Mc Carty came in, and call'd for a tankard of beer, they drank to one another; (I was going to get my dinner) Mc Carty said, will you go with me as far as such a street; I said, I will go any where you please to send me. Talbot said, Mr. Mc Carty; the debt is but small, you had better pay it; consider, it is a great deal of trouble to me. Then Mc Carty said, come along with me; they both went out of the house together into Prince's-street , and at the scowerer's door come up three or four fellows, they took hold of him, and brought him back into the house. Mc Carty said, d - n you, am I a robber or a thief, that I am to be so us'd; and I believe, at that time, he committed that wicked action. This is all I have to say.

Guilty .

Death .

He receiv'd sentence immediately, this being thursday, to be executed on saturday. The court order'd his execution to be at the end of Bow-street, and the body to be hang'd in chains on Finchley common; which was accordingly done .

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