John Carr, Deception > forgery, 27th February 1751.

Reference Number: t17510227-32
Offence: Deception > forgery
Verdict: Guilty
Punishment: Death

223 (L) John Carr , was indicted for forging and publishing a false letter of attorney, and also for publishing it with intention to defraud .

Nov 22 +.

Hodgson Bailes. I formerly kept the Three-Tun Tavern, Crutched-Fryers. On the twenty first of November, betwixt ten and eleven o'clock, the prisoner applied to me to fill up this blank power of attorney, holding it in his hand, which I did; the writing is all my hand-writing, except the witnesses names and the name of Hardey.

Q. Was any body by when you did it ?

Bailes. No; we were alone.

Q. Where was it done?

Bailes. At the Three-Tun Tavern, in the room they call the Bacchus; he put it into his pocket afterwards.

Cross Examined.

Q. Who keeps the Three-Tun Tavern now?

Bailes. One Mr. Floyd, he was in the house then.

Q. Did you see a woman there, who called herself Harris?

Bailes. I did not as I know of; Mr. Carr had another power of attorney in his pocket, to the best of my knowledge it was filled up in the same person's name; he said that was blunderingly fill'd up.

Q. Are not you sometimes employed in transacting business this way; that is, in filling up powers of attorney?

Bailes. Yes, I am often; but I never fill'd up a letter of attorney for the prisoner before.

Q. Did he use to frequent this house?

Bailes. Yes, he did.

Q. Was he not known to be an agent for such persons that wanted such things to be done?

Bailes. I believe he was.

Q. Is this an office of intelligence?

Bailes. Yes, it is; they keep a prize-book to give strangers the best intelligence they can of prizes.

Q. Did you see the other letter of attorney?

Bailes. Yes, I did; I remember there was a remarkable word, which was Fivety, wrote at length.

Q. Was that duly executed before a proper magistrate ?

Bailes. I cannot tell; I do think it was.

Q. When he used to resort to your house, how did he behave?

Bailes. Very well.

Q. Do you think he is an honest man?

Bailes. I cannot say I think he is, because he did not pay me for what he had.

Q. Do you believe him to be a man of a fair character?

Bailes. Some people give him but an indifferent one.

Capt. Bowles. I know John Hardey , he was midshipman on board his majesty's ship the Monmouth. I am third lieutenant on board that ship.

Q. What is become of him?

Bowles. He was lost in attempting to board a French privateer the 20th of March, 1747-8, under the command of capt. Harrison; we were not in the fleet, we were alone.

Q. Had you any other John Hardey besides him, on board the Monmouth?

Bowles. We had not to my knowledge.

Cross Examined.

Q. Is a midshipman's pay and a foremast man's pay differently rated in the book?

Bowles. Yes, they are.

Hen. Curle. I was clerk to Mr. Mason, Mr. Brett, and the gentlemen that are in the prosecution.

Q. Who are the others?

Curle. Mr. Philip Stevens , Mr. George Stevens , and Mr. John Hay ; they were the agents to the captors for the prizes taken by admiral Hawke, in October, 1747.

Q. What day were they appointed?

Curle. The day I cannot say . I have been clerk to them ever since the fifth of January was twelvemonth; the prisoner at the bar came to our office between nine and ten o'clock the 21 of Nov. being the third Wednesday in the month, a day appointed to pay the money that was not demanded before; he said he had got some papers at the other end of the town, concerning the Oct. fleet, and that he would go and fetch them; I told him if he did not return before 3 o'clock, he could not be paid, the agents having given us orders to pay the money into the bankers hand, that is, Tiscoe, Willis and Read.

Q. Where is your office kept?

Curle. It is in Talbot-Court. Gracechurch-street ; the prisoner said he liv'd near Lincoln's-Fields, and I understood the papers were at his own house.

Q. Had you a man's name in your book, John Hardey ?

Curle. Yes sir, we had: he was at the taking the May prizes; the 3d of May in the same year he there was rated only common man; he there was intitled to 12 l. 6 s. 6 d. he was paid on board the Monmouth, Dec. 2, 1747, 7 l. 5 s. 6 d. and on the 7th of June, 49, Mary Harris his Executrix, received 3 l. 9 s. 6 d. and for the May fleet, there was a guinea and a half paid, that was June 30, 49, to the same Mary Harris , for the October fleet. He was made midshipman the first of August, 47, and there was due upon account 19 l. 6 s. 6 d. which was not paid to any body.

Q. Did the prisoner come to your office after this?

Curle. In the afternoon betwixt 3 and 4 o'clock he came again, and brought a letter of attorney; he brought two, one was executed before my Lord Mayor, made by John Hardey , he produced it to Mr. Sedding and me, as a very legal and good letter of attorney, being executed according to act of Parliament; we said to him, it was past the time, but if he saw any of the Agents, we thought he would be paid; we did not admit him to sign the book that afternoon: the next day he came between two and three o'clock Mr. Sedding was present, the prisoner said, he had seen Mr. Mason, one of the agents, and that he said, he was not against his being paid, and that Mr. Mason would leave a draught with Mr. Sedding for the money, which he said he would call for in a day or two; we did not dispute his word, for he had received money of us several times before; we let him sign the books at that time; the book produced, this was signing for both the payments, both making up 19 l. 6 s. 6 d. he left the letter of attorney with Mr. Sedding the 2d day of his coming; he came

several times to the office, and asked for Mr. Mason, for the payment of the money: Mr. Mason came and desired me and Mr. Sedding, to tell him, that whenever the gentlemen met, they should see it, saying, he could not pay it till they had seen it; there was a day fix'd for their meeting. Tuesday Jan. 15. Mr. George Stevens and Mr Mason were the only persons attending. Mr. Carr came and insisted upon receiving the money, Mr. Mason told him, he believed it was a forged letter of attorney, Mr. Carr produced it, and said the woman Mary Harris was an honest woman, adding, in the open office, that she lived in good credit in the parish of St. George's Southwark; that she could have a certificate for her sobriety and honesty from some of the heads of the parish.

Q. Did you from his manner of speaking take this Mary Harris to be a woman he was acquainted with?

Curle. Yes sir, I apprehended he was. I was dispatched to the navy office to find out whether this man was dead or alive, or whether he was one at the taking the fleet the 27th of March 47, there I found he was drowned.

Q. Did you find any John Hardey besides one, on board the Monmouth.

Curle. No sir, I did not.

Cross examined.

Q. Has not Mr. Carr at other times received money at your office on powers of attorney?

Curle. Yes sir, he has.

Q. Did you ever hear his character was impeached before?

Curle. No sir.

Q. Has he not several times signed the books, and left it for two or three days, before he received the money?

Curle. Yes sir, he has.

Q. How many sail were there in this fleet?

Curle. There were nineteen sail.

Q. Is it usual for persons who come there, to leave their letters of attorney before payment?

Curle. No, it is not sir, but when he had left this, he had signed the books before.

Counsel for the Crown.

Did he not send a letter from the Old Bailey to your office?

Curle. Yes sir, he did on the Thursday, which time was appointed to receive the money, from the Old Bailey, saying he was obliged to stay there to give evidence upon a trial.

Counsel for the prisoner.

Did Mr. Mason. offer to pay him the money on the Thursday before he was taken up, and the prisoner then refused taking it?

Curle. Yes sir, he did refuse it, saying, he had been at the navy office, and informed himself the man was drowned three or four years ago.

Q. Did he not say he had been imposed upon?

Curle. No sir, I did not hear that.

Q. Did you hear him say he would not receive it for 500 l.

Curle. He did say so.

Counsel for the Crown.

Did he not say when he came with this power, he saw it filled up two or three days before?

Curle. I can't say I did hear that.

Counsel for the prisoner.

For what reason do you think Mr. Mason offered to pay him the money?

Curle. As he had sollicited several times for payment of it, Mr. Mason was very willing to punish him.

Coun. for the prisoner. The Papers he speaks of, did he say they belonged to this Hardey?

Curle. No, he did not say they did, sir.

Council for the Crown. Have you always the persons names on your books that serve on board such ships?

Curle. We seldom have any men's names on our books except what are killed in action or drowned?

Q. What was the date of this letter of attorney ?

Curle. It was dated the 21st of Nov. the same day it was produced.

The letter of attorney was read.

Know all men by these presents, that I John Hardey , late of the parish of St. George's Southwark, but now on board his majesty's ship the Monmouth, &c. in the common form, making Mary Harris , Widow, of the same parish, executrix.

Dated Nov. 21. In the presence of John Sharp .

Re-executed before Fran. Cokayne, Esq; Mayor.

Curle. Those that are made in London, are made in this manner, there is an act of parliament that they should be re-executed by the Mayor of the corporation where they are made.

John Sedding . I am clerk to Messrs. Mason and comp. I was in the office the 21st of Nov. last, the prisoner came on that day, between three and four o'clock in the afternoon, he produced a letter of

attorney, as a lawful good one, made to Mary Harris in order to receive John Hardey 's prize-money of the Monmouth; I told him I had just paid the money into the hands of the banker, and it could not be paid that day, but if he saw any of the agents, I did not doubt but he might be paid any day. The next day he came to me and told me he had seen Mr. Mason, one of the agents, and that he said, he had no objection to its being paid, and that he would leave a draught with me for the money. I let him sign the books for the prize monies, he left the letter of attorney with me; in two or three days after this, Mr. Mason and the prisoner met, I was there, Mr. Mason asked him, why John Hardey should make a letter of attorney, when he might come any day of the week and have the money himself? his answer was, that Hardey was greatly indebted to Mrs. Harris, and that he was in goal on the account thereof. Mr. Mason proposed then, to send me to the goal, in order to get him to own his hand writing; then the prisoner made answer, he was not in goal now, but that he had been. Mr. Mason asked him if he knew this Mary Harris , and where she lived; he said, he knew her, and that she lived at the parish of St. George's Southwark, and that she could have a certificate from the officers of the said parish, for her honesty and sobriety. He then asked, why she could not come herself? Mr. Carr said he had advanced her some money, but what I cannot say.

Q. Did he mention the particular goal, Thomas Hardey was in?

Sedding. I don't remember he did, but by his expression, it appeared to me, Hardey was in goal at that time, between the 21st of Nov. and the 15th of January; the prisoner sollicited several times to know if my master had left a draught for the money; on the 15th of Jan. he came and demanded the money due to John Hardey ; Mr. Mason argued with him, and told him it appeared like a forgery; then Mr. Mason dispatched a messenger to the Navy-office, to see how he stood upon the books there; as soon as he was gone, Carr said, he had business to do, for which reason he could not stay till the return of the messenger, so he went away; he seemed then to be in a confusion; the messenger returned and brought a notation from the office, that John Hardey was drowned in the year 47.

Q. How long was the messenger before he returned?

Sedding. He returned in about half an hour at farthest; when the prisoner came again, there was a draught ready for him; Mr. Mason was there; then he said, he would not receive the money.

Q. Was you present, when he was carried before the sitting alderman?

Sedding. I was, but I don't recollect the day.

Q. What did he say concerning Mary Harris there?

Sedding. Then he said, he did not know her or where to find her.

Cross examined.

Q. What day was the letter of attorney left with you?

Sedding. It was left the 22d of Nov. when he signed the book.

Q. Then from that time to the 15th of January, he still continued to come to your office for the money?

Sedding. Yes sir, he did.

Q. Did he say he'd go himself to search the books?

Sedding. I don't recollect he said he'd go himself?

Q. Did he come to your office after this, without being sent for?

Sedding. Yes sir, he did; and said he had been to search the books, and found the man was dead.

Q. Did Mr. Mason offer to pay him after that?

Sedding. Mr. Mason did, and he refused it.

Q. What did he say concerning Mary Harris , recollect as near as you can?

Sedding. He said, he did not know where to find the woman, and that he did not think he should know her, if he saw her; and that he had given her some money upon the account of that letter of attorney.

Cross examined.

Q. Did you not hear him say in in your office to Mr. Mason, if you have a warrant against me, I desire you would execute it, I'll go wherever you will?

Sedding. I do not remember I heard him say so.

Q. to Curle. Do you remember the prisoner saying so?

Curle. No, I do not.

Edmund Mason . I am one of the agents appointed by the squadron under the command of Sir Edward Hawke , upon the account of taking six French men of war the 14th of Oct. 1747. the first distribution was in Feb. 1748. the second in 49, and their claims that were not paid on that day were to be paid on a monthly day for three

days from the date of the first payment. On the 22d of November Mr. Carr applied to me at the Navy-office, and told me he had applied the day before, which was the third Wednesday in the month of November, the day of payment, and had been told by the clerks there was not money to pay him. I having the day before given to the clerks a draught of fifty pound, I was surprised they should make that excuse. About two o'clock the next day, which is the time I go to look into and settle the accounts, I told my clerk what he said; my clerk said he told him he came too late, but as he had applied on a proper day, though after the hour for payment, that at any future time he should be paid the money, himself being present at the office. The next morning, being the 23d, the clerk brought me the letter of attorney, and a notation from the prize books of the Monmouth, and in consequence of the orders they had signed by Mr. Carr, they had given him leave to sign the books: he had left the letter of attorney, which the clerk delivered to me, signed John Hardey , made to Mary Harris , they had not paid him the money. The next time Mr. Carr and I met I told him I was surprized he had imposed upon the clerk with a false message; I observed the letter of attorney was dated November 21, the very day the recal was to be. I thought it was extremely odd, to think a man should be at the expence of executing a letter of attorney, when he might have come, not only then, but any time of payment, and receive that money. I made these observations to the prisoner. Upon this his excuse was, do you observe it is made to Mary Harris ? I do, said I; said he, he was indebted for lodging and other things to Mary Harris ; said I, how could she secure him from coming for his own prize money? upon which he said she prevented him; said I, can she lock him up? He immediately said the man was in gaol ; upon which I proposed, that the clerk should go to him and ask him if this was his handwriting ; then Mr. Carr replied he was let go. I began to inquire into the character and circumstances of Mary Harris , and said, when she was before my Lord Mayor with it, it is very odd she should pass by the end of Talbot court to go to seek for a person to receive this money for her: he said he could not tell her reason for that; he said he had a letter of attorney, and that upon signing the books he had a property in it. I said, what property? said he, I paid the woman the money, or some of the money, I will not pretend to say which; as some of the prize money had been paid on board the ship, I did not doubt but I could find the man's hand-writing there. Upon which I ordered my clerks to look over the prize list. I found the first payment was paid on board to the party himself, and that he had wrote his name. We compared it with that on the letter of attorney, and we found not the least similitude of hands. Upon which I observed to Mr. Carr, how can you bring a thing of this sort as a credible thing, desiring him to look upon the writing, &c. See what a contradiction here is; but, said I, let us see what is become of the second and third shares; I looked, and found the second and third shares had been paid to one Mary Harris : said I, here is confusion upon confusion, one was signed Mary Harris executrix, the other Mary Harris attorney; he said it must be a mistake of our clerks noting executrix for attorney, not, said he, as I knew she ever received any before. Upon this I began to look to see if they were paid on the same day, and found the second and third payments were paid upon different days, and different clerks attested it. Said I, two clerks can never mistake; said he, I do not think but there must be some mistake still; said I, it is a very odd thing. Said he, I will ask Mary Harris if she has received any such money before. He came to me two or three different times; we overhawl'd the books. In some future time he came to me and told me, she says she has received none; he produced a written order from Mary Harris for us to pay the money. His solicitations were continued from time to time, with saying, he was surprized I should give him so much trouble, and that the said Mary Harris was of good credit, and he could bring the best sort of people in the parish to vouch for her character. I desired the clerks in the office to write to two or three gentlemen that live at the other end of the town, and I would speak to some other gentleman to look into these things to consider what must be done. I also told Mr. Carr he must wait till the gentlemen came, and if he did not like that he might proceed which way he thought proper. After this Mr. George Stevens came to the office, and Mr. Carr came in that instant, so that I told the story to Mr. Stevens in his hearing, and I also laid the books before him. Mr. Carr had then the letter of attorney in his possession; he produced it, Mr. Stevens was comparing that hand to the hand in the books, and looking upon the name Mary Harris , when it came into my head, that by sending for a notation to the Navy-office we should find whether that Hardey was an able seaman in May 747, and whether he was a petty officer in October 47, and also whether he was dead or alive; so with my own hand I wrote a note to the clerk of the Navy-office, and sent it away immediately. Mr. Carr said, I am obliged to be at the change and cannot stay. The clerk returned and brought a notation, that the man had been able in May 47, rated a petty officer in August 47, and that he died in the March following, on boarding a privateer, upon which the whole affair came out to me. I was at that instant convinced the letter of attorney was a forgery, so I wrote to my attorney to know what must be done. Carr was with me on the Wednesday about dinner time, and he was to come again the next day for a final answer, whether the money was to be paid or not, and before he went away I prevailed upon him to leave the letter of attorney with me. On the same day I had message from him, that he would come about two o'clock, and stay at the three Tuns till five. I sent word I would meet him about two o'clock, this was on Thursday. My attorney came in the morning, he advised a prosecution; Mr. Brett one of the agents came in at that instant, and was made acquainted with the whole affair; he applied to the sitting Alderman for the apprehending Mr. Carr, and the agents and constable were there in expectation of him; but instead of coming he sent me a letter from the Old Bailey, dated half past one o'clock, giving an account he was there to give evidence on a trial; I suppose the affair of Hugh Dunn *. So the constable was dispatched at that time, and the gentlemen went away: but we were told it was necessary to let him receive the money if he pleased, so I thought it would be better to suffer by a payment of that sort in order to make an example of him, than to let him go unpunished for attempts of this sort. On the Friday I was there with the constable at two o'clock, which was the time Mr. Carr was to come there. I was in the inward office by myself, Mr. Carr came there, and was shewn in to me; he came in and told me here is the order from Mary Harris . Mr. Sedding had a draught for 19 l. and was to give him 6 s. 6 d. in cash. I think Mr. Carr was in a good deal of confusion at that time. He said if the woman comes to the office, I desire that you will say the money was paid; said I, I don't design to keep a publick office to tell lies for you; said I, will you take the money? No, said he, I know better; then I took him into the inward room, and told him it was found out. He not taking the money, I let him go about his business, and told the constable not to execute his warrant, as I had none of the other agents with me. I met all the gentlemen at night, and told them the affair: they were determined and thought it their duty to prosecute him, then the constable had an order to put the warrant into execution on the Monday. The prisoner was taken up on that day and carried before the sitting alderman, when the alderman asked him how he came to vouch for the woman: he said he had seen Mary Harris once or twice, but he knew nothing of the woman. I think they are his words.

* See Number 106 of the last Sessions Paper.

The order from Mary Harris produced.

Mason. This order he left on Friday the 18th of January, here is my mark upon it. The order read to this purport.

24th of Nov. 1750.

Gentlemen,

Please to pay to Mr. John Carr the money due upon two powers made to me, for John Hardy and Thomas Bishop , this shall be your discharge, and greatly oblige

your humble servant, Mary Harris .

To Messrs. Mason and Co.

Mason. There was letter of attorney for Bishop, on board the Devonshire, offered by him when he brought the other from Mary Harris . Before he talked thus before the alderman I did believe he had often interviews with this Mary Harris and I really did understand from his talk John Hardey was in gaol, or I had not proposed to have sent a man to him. I remember I said to him, when he had got the papers in his hand, how came you to be so generous as to trust this woman with 19 l. upon the bare face of a letter of attorney? His answer was, I have done it.

Cross examined.

Q. You ask'd the prisoner why this man could not come himself. What was his answer?

Mason. He said the man was, or had been in goal.

Q. Is it not a usual thing for women in this sort of business to employ persons to receive money for them?

Mason. It is, Sir, but it is very unusual for people to pay poundage, which out of 19 l. must cost 19 s. and they themselves pass by the end of the court where it is to be paid to seek for a person to transact this business for them.

Q. Do women who have got such powers frequently come themselves?

Mason. I have seen women that live upon the spot frequently coming, persons that live out of town frequently employ persons to come for them.

Q. Whether you in your conscience think, that if the prisoner knew it to be a forgery he would have continued his sollicitations ?

Mason. He did do it.

Counsel. That is not an answer to the question?

Mason. I do think him all along knowing it to be such by the circumstances that attended it.

Q. Did he not willingly leave the letter of attorney with you?

Mason. I got it from him at last with some reluctancy; when I ask'd him to leave it, he said he believed it not to be necessary to leave it; said I, it is necessary, &c.

Q. Did not you say you would have given the 19 l. to have had him?

Mason. I don't remember I said them words, but we were advised to let him take it, and thought it necessary so to do, that he might be brought to justice.

John Stevens . Mr. Mason sent for me to come to the office about the 15th of January, he said here is a parcel of Irish fellows that are going about to rob us; at the same time Mr. Carr came in and gave me the power of attorney into my hand; we turned over the books and compared the hand writing, we found one Mary Harris sign'd her name at length, the other makes her mark. Mr. Carr stood behind me, and said he could bring a number of gentlemen in the parish of St. George's Southwark that can speak to her character, saying she is a woman of reputation: at that time he had not brought the certificate; I said, why don't you bring an order to receive the money, he said he had brought one, and it was in the office; we look'd and could not find it: then Mr. Mason proposed to send to the Navy-office to enquire about Hardey, and in the mean time the prisoner went away, saying he could not stay. He afterwards brought the order under the woman's hand.

Mary Harris . I live at Woolwich, I was born there.

Q. Did you know one John Hardey , who was on board the Monmouth?

M. Harris. I did, Sir.

Q. What is become of him?

M. Harris. He has been dead three years the 21st of this month, he made a will. [She produced the probate of it.] I am the executrix, I have received two payments of his wages.

Q. When was the will dated?

M. Harris. It was dated, Feb. 8. 1743-4.

Q. What was this John Hardey ?

M. Harris. He was a midship man the latter part of the time.

William Wiffin . I am beadle of St. George's parish, Southwark.

Q. How long have you been beadle of that parish?

Wiffin. About three quarters of a year, but I have lived in the parish almost twenty years.

Q. Do you know one Mary Harris in that parish?

Wiffin. I do. She lives in White-street.

Q. How long has she lived there?

Wiffin. She has lived there above nine or ten years.

Q. Is she a married, or a single woman?

Wiffin. She is a married woman.

Q. Do you know any other Mary Harris in that parish?

Wiffin. No, I do not.

Q. If there was any other that lived in reputation in the parish, do you think you should have known her?

Wiffin. Yes, Sir, I think I should.

Mary Harris . I live at the sign of the Faulcon, a publick house in White-street, St. George's parish, Southwark.

Q. Are you a married woman?

Mary Harris . Yes, Sir, my husband is here.

N. B. In a few days will be published the second part.

Old Bailey Proceedings front matter, 27th February 1751.

Reference Number: t17510227-32

THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE King's Commissions of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery FOR THE CITY OF LONDON; And also the Gaol Delivery for the County of MIDDLESEX,

HELD AT JUSTICE-HALL in the OLD-BAILEY,

On Wednesday the 27th, Thursday the 28th, of February, Friday the 1st, Saturday the 2d, and Monday the 4th, of March.

In the 24th Year of His MAJESTY's Reign.

BEING THE Third SESSIONS in the MAYORALTY of the

Right Honble Francis Cokayne , Esq; LORD-MAYOR of the CITY of LONDON.

PART II. of NUMBER III.

LONDON:

Printed, and sold by M. COOPER, at the Globe in Pater-noster Row. 1751.

[Price Four-pence.]

THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE

King's Commissions of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery held for the City of London, &c.

Q. to Mary Harris .

Do you know any other Mary Harris in that parish where you live?

M. Harris. I know one more, she is no housekeeper, she is a pin header.

Q. Did you ever see the prisoner at the bar before now?

M. Harris. No, Sir, I never did to my knowledge.

[She is shew'd the two papers, the false letter of attorney and order.]

Q. Did you ever see these papers before?

M. Harris. No, Sir, I know nothing of them.

Q. Did you ever hear of one John Hardey on board a man of war?

M. Harris. No, never in my life.

Cross examined.

Q. When did you see that Mary Harris the pin header?

M. Harris. About a year ago, I believe she lodged at the sign of the Thatch'd house in Mint-street.

Q. What size woman was she?

M. Harris. Much such a little woman as I am.

Q. How old was she?

M. Harris. About thirty years of age.

Q. Is she a married woman, or a widow?

M. Harris. She is a widow, her husband died abroad.

Q. Is Mint-street in the parish of St. George's?

M. Harris. It is, Sir.

Q. Have not you seen her lately ?

M. Harris. No, not to my knowledge these 12 months, I believe she lives in St. Mary Overy's parish now.

Q. Do you know what station her husband was in on board a ship?

M. Harris. I don't know.

Prisoner's Defence.

I am a person who have transacted this sort of business some time, the woman applied to me with a power of attorney, executed before justice Clerk in the Borough, I told her that would not do. I told her it would be better for her to have it done right, saying, it would cost her but half a crown to have another executed before my Lord Mayor; it was delivered to me, I had no view of any advantage in the world in it: as soon as I found it out to be a forgery, I applied to Mr. Mason, and told him I would not take the money, saying, I found I was greatly imposed upon. I know it was impossible for this man to come to life to make this power of attorney, when I found out he died such a time; I never kept out of the way, being conscious of my own innocency.

For the Prisoner.

William Floyd . I keep the three Tun-Tavern, Crutchet-friers, the prisoner at the bar has frequented my house ever since I have kept it, that is eighteen months next Lady-day. I keep a kind of an Intelligence-office, my house is a thorough fare to the Navy-office, as men have recourse there to know when they are to be paid; there is a prize book kept in my office for intelligence of this nature, when and where to be paid; Mr. Carr is an agent concern'd in that kind of business, and I never heard any thing to his disreputation before

this, he always kept good company and behaved well before me. I remember on November the 21st a woman came to my house, as there is every day, twenty, thirty, or forty men, women and boys, come into my house to ask questions, pray where is such a ship paid, &c. When any body comes to employ a person in this way, as there are several that do the same business as Mr. Carr does that use my house, I deal very impartially with them, I take the first, Mr. Carr happened to be at the bar the very time the woman said she wanted an agent to recover some prize money for the October fleet; I made her answer, that man was as fit a man as any I knew: then I called Mr. Carr, and told him there was such a woman who says she has some prize money due by a letter of attorney, and she would be glad if you will assist her in it.

Q. What time of the day was this?

Floyd. This was a little after ten o'clock.

Q. Did they seem to be acquainted?

Floyd. No, they did not, she gave him a letter of attorney, which was but indifferently fill'd up.

Q. Did you read it?

Floyd. No, I did not, but I just look'd at it; said he, Madam, I think this letter of attorney will not answer your purpose, I don't think it will do for the receiving the money, and that you had better have another executed before my Lord Mayor. She had another drawn up, Mr. Hudson Bayles fill'd it up, I can't say I saw him fill it up, but I remember I heard the prisoner say he fill'd it up; the woman call'd herself Harris. Mr. Carr and she were together may be about an hour, or an hour and a quarter sitting at a little deal table that fronts the door, they had half a pint of white wine, and a gentleman an acquaintance of Mr. Carr's came in, and the woman ask'd the prisoner to go with her into the Borough of Southwark to John Hardey , to have him sign this letter of attorney; he said he could not, but he desired his friend to go to see him do it.

Q. What was that friend's name?

Floyd. His name is Edward M'clean, they went out together, and I remember she return'd to my house again between two and three o'clock. We were at dinner, and Mr. M'clean came along with her; Mr. M'clean call'd for one of my drawers, and Mr. Carr was call'd out to Mrs. Harris and him; what pass'd then I cannot say. The day following I think she was at my house, and sat in one of the boxes in the kitchen, Mr. Carr was in the house at that time; I had ask'd Mr. Carr if he could oblige me with some money, he made answer and said he had just lent Mrs. Harris ten Guineas, and could not.

Q. Did you see him give to her ?

Floyd. No Sir, I did not, this talk was in Mrs. Harris's presence, that he told me this.

Q. There is an order has been produced here to Mr. Carr, to empower him to receive this money on the letter of attorney; do you know any thing of it?

Floyd. I saw Mrs. Harris sign an order.

Q. When was it signed?

Floyd. It was signed I think on the 24th of Nov.

Q. How do you recollect it to be the 24th of November?

Floyd. I believe every word in that order is my own hand-writing, excepting the woman's name.

Q. What day of the week was this?

Floyd. It was on a Saturday, it was marked by Mary Harris , and I witnessed it.

Q. How do you know her name was Harris ?

Floyd. I never heard her called by any other name.

Q. How many times did you see her?

Floyd. I saw her twice the first day, and again on the Saturday.

Cross examined.

Q. Do you frequently write those kind of papers for all strangers that come to your house?

Floyd. Yes Sir, I do.

Q. Did you not ask this woman, where she came from, or who she was?

Floyd. No, I did not. But I heard Mr. Carr ask her where she came from? she made answer, from some part of the Borough, St. George's Parish.

Q. What age did she appear to you to be?

Floyd. A middle aged woman.

Q. Did you ask her how she came to be entitled to this thing?

Floyd. No Sir.

Q. Did you ever hear of John Hardey or her, before that time?

Floyd. No, I never did.

Q. Was not you acquainted with one Hugh Dunn ?

Floyd. I have seen him, he was clerk to Mr. Kelley, the attorney.

Q. Do you know the woman was an acquaintance of this Hugh Dun ?

Floyd. I cannot say.

Q. Was there no discourse at that time, that the woman had been acquainted with Dunn?

Floyd. I never heard her mention his name in my life.

Q. How long have you been acquainted with this Mr. Barry ?

Floyd. He is a neighbour of mine, he lives in Fenchurch street.

Q. What countryman are you?

Floyd. I am an Irishman born in Dublin.

Q. How long has Mr. Barry been in England?

Floyd. He was here before I came, sir.

Q. Did you see a woman in company with Barry and the prisoner, that went by the name of Harris?

Floyd. No, I did not, sir.

Q. Were there any other papers delivered by her?

Floyd. Not as I know of, sir.

Q. You have much hurry of business some part of the day, have you not?

Floyd. Yes sir, our hurry of business is from ten in the morning to four in the afternoon.

Q. Then it is from the time the woman came in with the power of attorney, to the time she went away, is it not?

Floyd. Yes sir.

Q. Do many people use your house?

Floyd. You'll see a hundred people in my kitchen in a morning, my kitchen is a very large one.

Q. You say you drew up that order for her, did you?

Floyd. I heard Mr. Carr say, they would not pay him without an order, then I drew that order for her.

Q. Did you write the name Thomas Bishop in it? pray explain the meaning of that, you say there were no other papers whatsoever.

Floyd. I remember, I mentioned Thomas Bishop ; there were two powers of attorney, I had the account from Mrs. Harris and Mr. Carr, to enter it in that manner; I saw no papers but Hardey's.

Q. How comes it you remember so particularly this transaction?

Floyd. It came fresh into my mind, by hearing so much talk about it.

Q. Did you ever see this Mrs. Harris at your house after she had signed the order?

Floyd. No, I never did.

Edward M'clean. I was at the Three-Tuns, the house of Mr. Floyd, on Nov. 21. I know the day of the month by having a draught upon Mr. Cowder, he belongs to the China works at Bow.

Q. Did you see any people there that day that you knew ?

M'clean. I saw numbers of men and women there that day. I went in to have a gill of wine. I saw the kitchen pretty much crouded; Mr. Carr was sitting at a square table, and I saw a woman in company with him; he asked me if I would drink; I said, I came in upon that design; he desired I would sit down with them.

Q. Did you hear the name that woman went by?

M'clean. Mr. Carr drank to her by the name of Mrs. Harris; some time after this, he requested I'd go to one Hardey, to see a letter of attorney executed before my Lord Mayor.

Q. Did you go, sir.

M'clean. I did sir, into the Borough to a place about the middle part of the Borough to a little place facing the King's bench.

Q. Who did she say she was going to?

M'clean. She said she was going to one John Hardey ; she desired I'd call in at a publick-house, and she would come to me in a quarter of an hour.

Q. What house did you go in at?

M'clean. I think it was the sign of the Red-Cross, she said, he was afraid of being arrested: she returned to me in the publick-house, and said the man was ready for me; he stood at the corner of the door. I asked him, if he would come in and drink, she said he was affrighted out of his wits, fearing he should be arrested. We went down the Borough, she went before for some time, and the man was particulary more uneasy than the woman, we turned down to the water-side, to St. Mary Overy's ; then we crossed over the water, and landed at the Three Cranes, and went to my Lord Mayor's Hall, some of the Gentlemen ask'd what the business of that man was? he said, he came to execute a letter of attorney; there was a fattish man which was called for. I walked up and down the hall, and saw them execute this letter of attorney, and he witnessed it, and the man gave him a shilling. Then he went upon the right hand, and came out and gave it to Hardey, and Hardey gave it to the woman, and begg'd of her, she would be as expeditious as she could possible.

Q. Did you see it signed there?

M'clean. I saw the clerk very busy in writing; I ask'd her, what was the reason he could not come to Mr. Carr himself, and she asked me, if Mr. Carr was an honest man? I told her he was; we came back to the Three Tuns, and one of the waiters told me, Mr. Carr was in the house. He was in a back parlour, I sent in, and told him,

wanted to speak with him; he said we have done dinner, I am sorry you did not come sooner; he asked me if I saw it done? I said yes; she gave it to Mr. Carr.

Q. What are you?

M'clean. I keep a s tocking shop in Cecil's-Court, St. Martin's parish; I moved there this quarter,

Q. How long have you been in England?

M'clean. I have been in England 16 years.

Cross examined.

Q. How came you to be at the Three-Tuns that day?

M'clean. I being acquainted with Mr. Floyd, called in, to take a gill of wine.

Q. Did you keep a stocking shop then?

M'clean. I was at that time in partnership with another man.

Q. How long have you lived in Cecil-Court?

M'clean. I came there the Monday after Christmas?

Q. Did you come into the Three-tuns before the woman came in?

M'clean. The woman was with Mr. Carr when I went in.

Q. What time did you come there?

M'clean. I believe I came there after eleven o'clock.

Q. In whose hand did you see the letter of attorney first?

M'clean. Mr. Carr gave it to her, to carry to this Hardey.

Q. Do you know how he came by it?

M'clean. I don't know that, sir.

Q. Which way did you go from thence into the Borough?

M'clean. We went over London-bridge, and crossed the water back again.

Q. Did the woman tell you where he lodged?

M'clean. No sir, she kept that secret.

Q. Did you inquire were the woman lodged?

M'clean. No, I did not.

Q. What size man was he?

M'clean. He was a man of a middling stature, and wore a blew jacket.

Q. Did you make any inquiry what offices he had been in on board?

M'clean. No, I did not.

Q. Which way did you go from my Lord Mayor to Crutched-Friars?

M'clean. We came up Thames-street.

Q. Did you ask the woman why she did not go to Mr. Mason's office ?

M'clean. Yes, I did, and she said she was afraid of being arrested.

Q. Was not you desired to witness the will?

M'clean. No sir, I was not.

Q. Did you see it witnessed?

M'clean. I saw a man take a pen and ink, and write.

Q. Did you see him deliver it to the woman after that?

M'clean. Yes, I did sir.

Q. Did you see her give up the power of attorney to Mr. Carr?

M'clean. Yes sir, I did.

Q. Have you ever given yourself any concern, to go to look after the woman?

M'clean. No, I have not.

Counsel for the prisoner.

I think you have received a pretty quantity of money lately for yourself?

M'clean. Yes sir, I have received a hundred and thirty pounds of Mr. Belcher for prize money, and I expect more.

William Barry . He is shewed the order.

Q. Do you know any thing of this?

Barry. I am a subscribing evidence to this order, I saw a woman who called her name Mary Harris make that mark upon it; my time was very short, and I witnessed it.

Q. How came you there at that time?

Barry. I came there by accident. I believe I did not stay there above 10 minutes.

Cross examined.

Q. Was you before the alderman?

Barry. Yes I was.

Q. Did you write your name there before him?

Barry. Yes I did, once or twice.

Q. Did the names you wrote appear to be similar to this?

Barry. I fancy they did.

Q. Was it thought so there?

Barry. I had not three words to say there. I asked the alderman to shew it me, he did not.

Q. Pray what are you?

Barry. I deal in wine and oyls from Leghorn. I live in Magpye alley, Fenchurch street.

Q. How long have you known Mr. Carr?

Barry. I have known him about two years.

Q. How came you to subscribe as a witness?

Barry. I was asked so to do.

- Humphries. I remember Mr. Carr leaving an order at Mr. Mason's office the 18th of January. I happened to meet Mr. Carr at the Portugal

coffee-house, he told me he was going down to Talbot court, and asked me to walk along with him; I went into a Tavern in Talbot court, I sat there a little time, and he came and told me Mr. Mason had detained the order. I told him if Mr. Mason would acknowledge it, or give a receipt for it well and good. I went with him there; Mr. Mason asked Mr. Carr if he would receive the money; No, said he, I know better. Why so? said Mr. Mason. said he, since I have been here last I went to the Navy-office and searched the books, and there I understand John Hardey has been dead two years ago, and therefore he said he believed he was imposed upon by that power of attorney, therefore, said he, I will not receive the money. Said Mr. Mason I had rather than fifty guineas you had taken it, at which I laughed. Mr. Mason looked very sternly at me, Sir, said he, it is no laughing matter; said I, I cannot help laughing at your zeal for taking an advantage of a person. Then Mr. Carr told him, he apprehended he had got a warrant against him, and said, if you have one pray execute it now; and if you do not I shall be upon change every day, or at the Portugal coffee-house. I find, said Mr. Mason, you have been taking advice, and I'll take advice as well as you.

Q. Did Mr. Mason say he had a warrant?

Humphries. I don't know that he said he had.

Q. to Mr. Mason. Do you remember this witness being there at this time?

Mason. I do, Sir.

Q. Did you say the words he mentions?

Mason. I do think I did not.

Q. to Humphries. What are you?

Humphries. I am an attorney of the Common-pleas.

Q. Where do you live?

Humphries. I live in Wine-office court, Fleet-street.

Q. How long have you been in England?

Humphries. Between 8 and 9 years.

Q. How many actions have you brought on in that court?

Humphries. I never brought on one.

Q. to Curle. Was there a warrant at this time the last witness speaks of to take the prisoner up?

Curle. There was, and Mr. Nash was there present.

Q. Did you hear Mr. Mason say he had rather than fifty guineas that Mr. Carr had taken this money?

Curle. I did hear Mr. Mason say so.

Richard Nash . I am one of my Lord Mayor's marshals, I had a Warrant to take Mr. Carr up, I went to the coffee-house and inquired what time he would be there, the waiter told me he would be there about one o'clock. Mr. Carr was there. I think it was the 21st of January, I desired him to go along with me; he did.

Q. from the prisoner. Was I unwilling?

Nash. He was not, but if he had, I did not doubt but to have managed him.

Q. from the prisoner. Did not that evidence admit me to go into the coffee-house as we were coming along?

Nash. I did not. I stood with him at the door about a minute. The prisoner desired to have a coach, so I had one.

Charles Carthew . I have known Mr. Carr but about half a year or three quarters. I heard a very good character of him before he came into our neighbourhood, or he would not have had that house there.

Q. What is his character?

Carthew. I believe him to be a man of a tolerable or very good character.

Q. What business is he?

Carthew. When he took the house he was represented to me as a wine merchant.

Fra. Carthew. I live next door to my brother, I know nothing to the contrary but he is an honest man.

Cross examined.

Q. What is his general character?

Carthew. Since this misfortune people have been talking of him, but I don't know his general character. I have known him but about six months.

Mr. Long. I have known the prisoner almost two years, I know nothing of him but honesty. I live in Great Wild street. I am a master taylor, I have worked for him, he has paid me very honestly.

Tho Adlard . I live in Stanhope street, and am a master taylor; Mr. Carr lodged in my house a year and upwards. He came to me the 25th of March 49; he behaved very well, he dealt with me and paid me like a man of honour. He behaved soberly, as a man of honour. I do not know what you call sober, I never saw him drunk.

Jacob Rample . I have known Mr. Carr these three years. I live in Blackmore street, near Clare market, and am a baker, he lodged in my house, he used me very well, and paid me very justly and honestly for what he dealt with me for.

Cross examined.

Q. What was his general character?

Rample. I don't know what he was, he dealt just and fair by me. I heard he had been at sea.

Q. When did he first come to your house?

Rample. Last Lady day was two years.

Edmund Rush . I have known the prisoner about three years. The character that I always heard of him was very just; he sold brandy, rum and wine.

Mr. Bassin. I keep the Spread Eagle coffee-house, Bridges street near Covent Garden, I have known the prisoner between two and three years. He dealt with me in brandy, rum and wine; he was recommended to me for an honest man, and I have found him so, and I never heard any thing amiss of him.

Samuel Hill. I have known him about three years or a little better, and never heard any thing amiss of him before this. I am a razor maker and live in Clare court, Clare market; he has bought several things of me, and recommended to me several customers.

John Finley . I have known the prisoner about eight or ten years, he has a very good character; he deals in wine, rum and brandy; he was in that trade when I first knew him.

Cross examined.

Q. Has he been in England ever since you knew him?

Finley. He has.

Q. Have you known him and been acquainted with him all the time?

Finley. I was out of England three years and seven months.

Q. Did you ever hear he was out of England?

Finley. If he was out of England then I cannot tell.

Joseph Silver . I am steward to the Portugal ambassador, I am a Portuguese, I have known Mr. Carr these eighteen or twenty months, and have dealt with him in rum, brandy and wine. He has a very good character, I never observed any thing bad of him.

Geo Ebe . Pewterers. I live in Cow-cross. I have known Mr. Carr these two years, I have had dealings with him in goods my way: I am a pewterer and Brazier, he has dealt always very honourably and honestly with me. I never believed he would be guilty of a forgery.

Martin Eakey . I have known Mr. Carr these six years. I am a victualler and taylor. He is a man of a good character, and charitable every other way: I have bought liquors of him, I cannot think he would be guilty of forgery. He has been off and on these six years and upwards at my house.

Cross examined.

Q. Do you know he has been on board a privateer ?

Eakey. I don't: but he has been concerned that way.

James Carril . I believe I have known the prisoner seven years. I never heard any thing amiss of him.

Cross examined.

Q. What are you?

Carril. I am his brother-in-law, and a perriwig maker. I believe he is as honest as any gentleman here.

For the Crown.

Jos. Hughs. I am proctor at Doctor's Commons. I have known Mr. Carr about two years, I have always looked upon him in a very bad light for two years past. Some gentlemen among us have spoke of him as such, that has been concerned in prize affairs, in one or two I have been concerned in.

Q. What is your opinion of him?

Hughs. I do look upon him to be a bad man.

Cross examined.

Q. Had not you a dispute with him once?

Hughs. I had, and if you will have me, I'll go into particulars.

Richard Horne . I am a clerk in the ticket-office in the navy. I deliver all the tickets that are delivered. I have known the prisoner from the time of my coming into the office, which was in August last. I was once walking cross the park with another person, and I met Mr. Carr and another fine gentleman in a lace waistcoat with him; as they came near me he just moved his hat and passed me. Said the gentleman with me, do you know that gentleman? yes, Sir, said I; said he, do you know the other gentleman that is in company with him? no, said I: said he, that is a person I don't like, I must have a great regard to

what I did with Mr. Carr, he never came to our office above two or three times afterwards.

Q. How did he behave when he used to come to your office?

Horne. Quite smooth to the last degree, I always behaved civil to him, and always searched the books for him, he used to ask me several questions, in order to get intelligence concerning sailors, such as we call Fishing Questions.

Q. What is your opinion of him in the general?

Horne. I believe him to be a very ill man.

Mr. Boxley. I am along with Mess. Bell and Harrison in Crutchet friers as a clerk, they have dealt some years in the navy way in receiving wages and prize money for sailors, I have known the prisoner by sight about five or six months past.

Q. What is his general character?

Boxley. I cannot say I believe him to be an honest man, far from it.

Mary Stonehouse . I live at Plymouth dock, I have known the prisoner these four months, he has got a false administration to what is my property, I have not enter'd my action against him, but I have given directions concerning it.

Frederick Emanuel Gibolet . I am a surgeon, I knew Carr in the year 45, on board a privateer, I have seen him two or three times since, but I never would have any acquaintance with him.

Q. What was his general character on board?

Gibolet. He had not the character of an honest man, I have heard several people on board say, his principles were different from that of an honest man.

Q. How long was you on board that ship?

Gibolet. I was on board her ten months.

Cross examined.

Q. What do you mean by his principles being different from that of an honest man?

Gibolet. I have heard several people say his character was that of a bad man.

John Redman . I am a clerk in the Navy-office, I belong to the Ticket-office, I have seen the prisoner a great many times at our office, and I have great reason to have an indifferent opinion of him, I have great suspicion of his being a bad man from very good reasons.

Guilty of publishing it.

Death .

Old Bailey Proceedings front matter, 27th February 1751.

Reference Number: t17510227-32

THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE King's Commissions of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery FOR THE CITY OF LONDON; And also the Gaol Delivery for the County of MIDDLESEX,

HELD AT JUSTICE-HALL in the OLD-BAILEY,

On Wednesday the 27th, Thursday the 28th, of February, Friday the 1st, Saturday the 2d, and Monday the 4th, of March.

In the 24th Year of His MAJESTY's Reign.

BEING THE Third SESSIONS in the MAYORALTY of the

Right Honble Francis Cokayne , Esq; LORD-MAYOR of the CITY of LONDON.

PART II. of NUMBER III.

LONDON:

Printed, and sold by M. COOPER, at the Globe in Pater-noster Row. 1751.

[Price Four-pence.]

THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE

King's Commissions of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery held for the City of London, &c.


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