393, 394. + Hosea Youell and Jacob Lopez were indicted, and the Indictment sets forth, That they not having the Fear of God, and being moved by the Instigation of the Devil, on the 23d of September , did make an Assault upon Joseph Johns , and with a certain Sword did strike or stab, and give one mortal Wound, the Breadth of one Inch, and the Depth of nine Inches, of which Wound the said Joseph Johns died .
Grindal. Upon Wednesday the 23d of September, between the Hours of ten and eleven at Night, I was desired to come to a Gentleman that had been robb'd and stabb'd in the Body.
Q. Where was this?
Q. Was he dead when you came?
Grindal. No, he liv'd for two or three Days after. I found there was a Portion of the Sword left in his Body, about half an Hand's Breadth below the right Breast?
Q. What Sort of Wound had he receiv'd ?
Grindal. A small Wound that was not big enough for my little Finger to go in; the Sword stuck so fast in, that it was with great Difficulty that I got it out. I imagin'd that it pass'd through the Liver, by the Symptoms he had afterwards, and I believe it be the Occasion of his Death.
Q. When did he die?
Grindal. On Saturday in the Afternoon. I attended him twice a Day.
Q. Had he any other Wound?
Grindal. He had a small Wound upon his Nose but of no Consequence at all. When I took the Sword out it was nine Inches long, it was buried; we were forc'd to enlarge the Wound to get it out.
Q. When you came first to him, did you think him to be in danger ?
Grindal. When I felt the Sword, I did conclude the Sword was within side of the Body, but without side of the Rib.
Q. Did you ever tell him, that he was in danger of Death?
Grindal. He said he was not a bit afraid of Death; and he desir'd I would tell him.
Q. When he thought himself in danger of Death, what did he tell you then ?
Grindal. He told me, he was coming up Sandwich-Court between ten and eleven, and two Men, whom he imagin'd to be Jews, met him.
Court. It was not light enough, I suppose, to see them?
Grindal. He said, he could see the Colour of their Clothes and Stature. He first said, there was a Woman at the Corner of the Court, that ask'd him to give her something. He did not stay to speak to her: but when he came from the Woman they attack'd him, and took his Watch and Money from him. He let them go off quietly, but hearing some People coming towards him, he found he had the Prisoners between these People and himself, and he thought it proper to take one or both of them, and he cry'd out, Stop Thief. Upon which one of them return'd and gave him this Stab in the Body.
Q. Did he describe to you, what Man it was that gave him this Stab in the Body?
Grindal. He told me, it was one of the Men that robb'd him.
Q. Was it dark?
Grindal. There were Lamps light enough for him to see the Persons; and he told me, if he was to hear the Person speak again, he believ'd he could swear to the Man, there was something so particular in his Speech.
Q. Were they brought before him?
Grindal. They were, but I was not there.
Council for the Defendant Lopez. Mr Grindal, did Captain Johns describe the Heighth of the Persons ?
Grindal. Yes, Sir, he said one was a tall Man, and the other a short Man. I think, he said, a tall Man and a short Man, but I cannot charge my Memory with it, I am not positive to it.
Q. When did you go first to see him?
Love. The first Time was on Thursday Morning. I went four Times in the whole.
Q. Which was the other Time?
Love. On Friday, my Lord; and I was twice with him on Saturday. The Occasion of my going on Saturday Morning was, as I was going by the Constable's Door he calls me into his Shop, and he said, that the Rascal had surrendered himself at the Poultry-Compter that we were in pursuit of. He said he could not go to the Compter, but I went, and when I came
Q. Which was this?
Love. It was Hosea Youell . When I was at the Compter he came to me, and I ask'd him, What he knew of this Murder? He said, he should know the Sword. I thought it would not signify for me to talk further with him, so I went and acquainted Captain Johns with it.
Q. Did he say he should know the Sword?
Love. Yes, he said he should know the Sword.
Q. When you was with Captain Johns on Saturday Morning, how did appear to be?
Love. He spoke very hearty, but he said, he believ'd the Sword had gone through his Liver; and he believ'd he should die. I told him, the Man that we had been in the Pursuit of, which I believ'd was the Person, had surrender'd himself at the Compter. I ask'd him, if he should have any Knowledge of the Man, if he should see him? He said, he believ'd he should. I ask'd him, If he was willing to see him? I stay'd a little after this, and ask'd him again, if he was willing to see him, now Alderman Rawlinson had been so good to examine this Person? So he said I might bring him to him. When I came the Marshal had taken him. When I came, to Youell I sends both our Beadles to Alderman Rawlinson, and he came presently. When he came there Mr Chattam, Clerk at Guild-hall, he came along with him. When we came up Stairs into the Room, the Alderman there, and every Thing was still, the Alderman ask'd Captain Johns, if he knew the Man? He look'd at him, and says, That is the Man that stabb'd me.
Q. Which did he look at?
Love. There was only Youell there. Lopez was below.
Court. When he said so, I suppose he gave some Reasons for it.
Love. He was ask'd, if he knew the Man? And he said, that was the Man that stabb'd him. The Alderman walk'd to his Bedside, and said, You are a dying Man, I hope you will have a Regard how you speak. He said again, he is the Man that stabb'd me. With that Youell look'd Joseph Johns in the Face, and said, Do you know me?
Q. I ask you; before the Deceased said, That is the Man that stabb'd me, had Youell spoke before that?
Love. He had not spoke before that, my Lord.
Court. He said before, he should know him by his Speech; did he give an Account how he came to know him?
Love. I heard that Youell was with him before.
Court. You say, when Youell look'd at him, and said, Do you know me? He answer'd, You are the Man that stabb'd me.
Love. Yes, and Mr Chattam, the Clerk, took down what the Deceased said, who repeated over and over, You are the Man that stabb'd me.
Q. Did Youell make any Answer?
Love. He made no Answer at all.
A further Examination of Joseph Johns , taken before me, on Sept. 26th, signed Tho Rawlinson . '' This '' Examinant further faith, That the Person present, '' who says his Name is Hosea Youell , is one of the '' Persons concerned in robbing, and the very Person '' who stabb'd this Examinant, to the best of his '' Knowledge and Belief.''
Q. Was there any Thing more pass'd at that Time?
Love. No, he dy'd in about fifteen Minutes after his signing that Paper.
Q. Was he in his Senses?
Love. He was in his Senses as much as any one in this Court. When Youell came down, before the Alderman, he declared he was not the Person that committed the Murder, but he was within twenty Yards of the Place when the Robbery was committed.
Q. How came you to suspect Youell?
Love. On Thursday Morning I heard of this Robbery committed so near me, I was going along by the Corner of the Dolphin Gate there was a Crowd of People, and a Woman in the midst of them; and they said, there was a Woman there that knew the two Men that had committed the Robbery and Murder, so I ask'd the Woman -
Q. Do you know her Name?
Love. Her Name is Eliz Delahughes.
Q. What did you ask her?
Love. She was in Liquor, but I saw the Constable just by, and I charg'd the Constable with her, and had her to the Compter; this was on Thursday Morning. After we had her kept two or three Hours in the Compter she began to come to herself, and she said, she knew their Haunts, the bad Houses and Places where they use to reside. She said, she saw Lopez come into the Court at that very Time.
Q. Did she say nothing of Youell?
Love. I can't say.
Chattam. No, I was not with him the first time.
Q. I ask you what the Deceased said to Youell while you was there?
Chattam. I ask'd the Deceased in Bed, if he knew the Prisoner that was before him? and he said, he
Q. Did he say this once or twice ?
Chattam. He said it two or three times over; he said it to me when they were all gone out of the Room he desired me to stay.
Court. The other Witness says, that Alderman Rawlinson put him in mind that he was a dying Man, and he desired him to mind what he said ?
Chattam. Yes, my Lord.
Q. After that did he say any thing ?
Chattam. Yes, my Lord, he repeated it afterwards.
Q. Did you hear the Prisoner say any thing ?
Chattam. The Prisoner said in a very hasty manner, Are you sure I am the Man ? he answered, You are the Man. I ask'd the Deceased, How he was so positive to the Man? he told me, There was a Glimmering of Light from the Lamps that he could see pretty well.
Q. Who was by when he said there were Lights from the Lamps?
Chattam. This Witness, Love, was gone down then; and he said, he could know him from his Voice too; the Deceased took hold of my Hand, he found he should not live long, and he desired this Man might be brought to Justice; and if his Watch was found, that it might be given to a Person that was then in the Room; then I went down to the Alderman.
Q. When you went down, what did Youell say?
Chattam. When he was told that the Captain was dead, he was struck with Horror, and desired to be admitted an Evidence. The Alderman asked what he had to say? He said, he was not the Man that stabb'd him, that did the Murder, but it was one Hart.
Q. What did he know of it did he say?
Chattam. I don't know whether he quite confessed he was guilty of the Robbery, but wanted to be admitted an Evidence.
Q. Was Lopez never up with the Deceased?
Chattam. No, my Lord, they described him as a tall Man; and he said the other Man that was concerned with Youell was about his size, therefore the Deceased would not see him.
Q. Was Mr Love in the Room when he said that?
Chattam. I believe they were all in the Room.
Q. Where was the Sword found?
Chattam. It was found in the Court where the Captain was stabb'd.
Q. Where is the other Piece, does that tally with it?
Chattam. Yes, my Lord. [both were produc'd in Court.] When the Sword was shew'd to Youell at the Inn, he was then Handcuff'd, and he desired they might be taken off before he would speak; he was ask'd if that was not his Sword, and he look'd at it, and prevaricated pretty much, and said that his Sword was a little thicker and blacker; I believe that was all that he said.
Q. You say he prevaricated pretty much, so I presume he did not own it was his Sword, Did he deny that it was his Sword?
Chattam. No, nor he did not deny it, but said that his Sword was a little thicker.
White. Yes, my Lord.
Q. Do you know the Prisoner Youell?
White Yes, my Lord, by sig; I have seen him backwards and forwards in Gravel-lane for this half Year; I work there.
Q. What Business does he follow?
White. He is nothing; he lives at a slender way; he never works for his Bread. I live in Fo-street; I work in Gravel-lane with one Mr Thompson, where I have work'd for these three Years. On the Friday Morning before this Gentleman was stabb'd, I was going to my Work between six and seven o'Clock, and as my Master and I were talking, Youell comes by with that very Sword, he stood by me and play'd with it, he had abus'd a Gentlewoman just before.
Q. Are you sure or not sure that Youell had that Sword in his Hand the Friday before?
White. My Lord, I took particular Notice of it.
Q. Did you talk with him?
White. Mr Ballard did talk to him; he said What, young Man, are you upon your guard; are you afraid the Constable will serve a Warrant against you for abusing the Woman? Then he said, Why do you carry that Sword? then Youell said, I want to have it made into a Tuck.
Court. Then you had Talk with him about the Sword a pretty while; on Friday you saw the Sword, and on Wednesday Night the Fact was committed; had you any discourse with him after the Fact was committed ?
White. Yes, on the Saturday Night.
Court. That was after the Gentleman was dead?
White. I had some Discourse with him after he came down from the Gentleman; I tax'd him with the Thing; I was left Centinel over him at the Dolphin.
Q. What did he say to you?
White. He said he was not the Man that stabb'd Mr Johns, but he said he was within twenty Yards of the Place, and a Dutch Boy had the Gentleman's Watch, that is, Hart the Jew, a Dutch Boy.
Q. Did he say who it was that stabbed the Deceased?
Q. How came you by the Sword?
White. When they told me of this Murder and Sword, I heard this Sword was dropp'd in the Court, and I went to see the Sword; the Gentlewoman had it that belongs to the Pork-shop where the Gentleman was carried in.
Council. Was you at any time in the Bail-dock with the Prisoner ?
White. I went Yesterday just within the Door.
Council. Did you not say, That if he, or his Mother, would not give you a Guinea, you would swear away My Life; and was you not turned out?
[ The Prisoner said that White should say, he would swear by his Life, unless he would give him a Guinea Abraham, one of the Servants at Newgate, was call'd into Court, to know if he did not turn out White the Witness, from the Prisoner? he answered that he did, but he did not mind what Words pass'd]
Hogskins. In Sandwich-court; I saw the Sword pick'd up just after the Gentleman was wounded.
Q. Do you know any thing more; do you know any thing against Youell and Lopez?
Hogskins. I heard the Gentleman say it was a little Man that stabb'd him; he said there was two of them together; I was the first that came to his Assistance.
Q. Did he speak any thing about the Stature or Size of the other Person?
Hogskins. No, I did not hear him.
Richardson. My Lord, I took Youell before the deceased Capt. Johns, to see if the Captain knew him.
Q. Which Day?
Richardson. On a Saturday, my Lord.
Q. Did you carry him up into the Room before the rest came?
Richardson Before the rest came, my Lord; and when Yo uell came into the Room, the Captain ordered the Curtains to be undrawn, and view'd him very narrowly for some time before he spoke; then, with a good deal of Resentment, he said, You barbarous Villain, you are the Rascal that stabb'd me.
Q. Had the Prisoner spoke?
Richardson. No, my Lord.
Q. What did Youell say?
Youell the Prisoner. Sir, I will make my Affidavit I was elsewhere at the same time.
Richardson. Capt. Johns said, Turn about, Friend, and flap your Hat, and put it on; now, says he, say, D - n your Eyes! says the Prisoner, I never could swear such an Oath in my Life; so I desired he would, for the Satisfaction of the Captain, repeat that Oath, which he did.
Q. What said the Captain then?
Richardson. I should have told your Lordship, there was something to do to make him talk; I made him talk as much as I could; when he had said, D - n your Eyes, the Captain said, You are the Villain that stabb'd me, I am positive on't.
Q. Did he put down his Hat and flap it ?
Hogskins. He did before that.
Q. Did Youell give him any Answer when he said, You are the Villain that stabb'd me?
Hogskins. He said nothing. Captain Johns said, I declare he is the Man; I know him by his Stature, I know him by his Habit, and by his Voice; this was about an Hour and a Half before Captain Johns died; he might die about half an Hour after five; about an Hour after this first time, Alderman Rawlinson came down; then he had another fight of him; he then declared that he was the Man. Then I ask'd him about Lopez, and whether he would see him. I told him that we had got a tall thin Man that was much suspected: He said he would not, for the Person who was a Confederate with him (Youell) was of his Stature, rather broader set than the Prisoner at the Bar; he said, I will not see that tall Man, for I am sure it was no such Person. After Alderman Rawlinson had taken the Examination, one told me, that Youell desired to speak with me in private, and that he would speak with no body else; I went to him, and we went into a private Room together, and Youell burst into Tears, and said, For God's sake Mr Marshal, use your best Endeavours to take Joshua Hart , or else I shall be hang'd, and desire the Alderman to admit me an Evidence against Joshua Hart. Hart, says he, was the Man that gave the Blow, and for my own part I was forc'd into it: I was forc'd to assist in the robbing; he ran after me with a long Knife, and threatened to stab me if I would not go a robbing with him. Then I went down with him to the Alderman, and there he did prevaricate; he said he was within twenty Yards? Word was brought down that Captain Johns was dead; then I suppose he thought there could be no Evidence against him. My Lord, here is one material thing I ought to declare the Truth with regard to Lopez; I said, though we had not got Hart, yet if Lopez had the Watch, he might be some way concerned; he could say nothing to take away the Life of an innocent Man.
Q. to Eliz. Delahughes. How old are you?
Q. What do you know of this Matter?
Delahughes. Sir, I had been over Devonshire-square; as I came back again, the Watchman said something to me, I can't say what, as I came down on this Side of the Way, I heard a Groan; as I went, Lopez clapp'd his Hand upon me, and said, Bet, where are you going?
Court. Then you knew him before?
Delahughes. I have drank once in his Company, and once I saw him along with a young Woman that I know.
Court. You did not see him do any thing to the Deceased?
Delahughes. I did not see him dead nor alive.
Amphlet. I am a Spectacle-maker by Trade, and a Watch-glass-maker.
Amphlet. I saw him in the Bail-dock; he went to speak with Hosea Youell ; he told him, if he would not give him a Guinea he would swear his Life away; with that Abraham took him by the Shoulders, and dragged him between the Gates, and turned him out; I was there, and two or three Friends along with me.
Q. Did Abraham hear it ?
Amphlet. Upon that Abraham turned him out.
Mendus. Not as I know of.
Q. Did you turn him out?
Mendus. Yes, I turned him out; what Business had he there?
Mary Amphlet . I saw the Soldier yesterday with the Prisoner; and he said, Youell, have you spoke with your Father; if not, says he, I'll swear your Life away, if you don't get me a Guinea as you have promised me.
Solomon. I deal in Drugs.
Q. How long have you known the Prisoner Youell?
Solomon. I have known his Parents before he was born; I have known him fifteen or sixteen Years; he has a very good Character, and a very honest Lad.
Q. Did you see him upon the 23d of September ?
Solomon. I saw him in Petticoat-lane, between seven and eight o'Clock in Whitechapel.
Q. Did you see him after that Time?
Solomon. He did not come out of my Company till past twelve o'Clock in the Morning. He was not out of my Company, except he might make Water. He was my Servant for two Years.
Q. How long ago?
Solomon. About Half a Year ago. He behav'd himself honestly; and a trusty Servant he was to me.
Q. Was there any other Company?
Capel. As to the Accident I know nothing of it; but he and Mr Solomon, and Mr Amphlet and his Wife, was at Mrs Christan's last Wednesday, as near as I can guess, between eight and nine o'Clock at Night, and stay'd till after twelve.
Durant. I have got some Things that belong to a Man they call Hart. As for the Prisoner at the Bar, I know nothing of him. About a Fortnight before, Hart came to my House, he wanted Lodgings at so much per Week. My Wife has been lately dead, and I had no such Conveniencies, A Night or two after he came and ask'd if he could lie there, and he call'd for a Pint of Hot.
Q. When did he go away?
Durant. I don't know whether he laid at my House. The Wednesday or Thursday, when he went to Bed he said, let me have a Quart of Water; having this Quart of Water, I went up into the Room. There was a Light in his Room. I said, I beg you will put out your Candle. Whether he put it out then, I cannot tell. The next Morning he got up before me; gets up, Sir, and he said, he had spilled some Water upon his Clothes. Whether it was the Water he carried up, or the Chamber Pot, he dry'd his Clothes by the Fire. I expected him at Night. but he never came that, nor the next Night; so I said, that this Fellow that has taken that Room will not come any more; I believe, says the Maid, you will lose nothing by it, he has left something; when a Man came with a Subpoena, he said, Have you not one Joshua Hart lodges at your House? I says to the Girl, Fetch down the Things in my Room; there was a Shirt and a Waistcoat, the Shirt is bloody, I saw that he had Water up with him at Night.
Solas. Fifteen Years.
Q. What is his general Character?
Solas. I never heard no bad Character of him.
Q. Did you ever employ him in any thing?
Solas. I have sent him with several Things of value, and I never found any thing but Honesty of him.
Court to Mr Grindal. You took the Sword out, you described it as an extremely small Orifice, do you think the Wound could cause a bloody Shirt?